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Clinton and Sanders Spar Over Guns and Minimum Wage; Sanders Speaks in Vatican City; Ex-"Apprentice" Contestants Against Trump. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired April 15, 2016 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[10:30:01] HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You have a right to defend yourself. That does not mean -- that does not mean that you don't take appropriate precautions.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There comes a time -- there comes a time when if we pursue justice and peace, we are going to have to say that Netanyahu is not right all of the time.

If a gun shop owner sells a weapon legally to somebody and that person then goes out and kills somebody, I don't believe it is appropriate that the gun shop owner who just sold a legal weapon to be held accountable and be sued.

CLINTON: We hear a lot from Senator Sanders about the greed and recklessness of Wall Street, and I agree . We've got to hold Wall Street accountable.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN MODERATOR: Thank you.

CLINTON: Well, what about the greed and recklessness of the gun manufacturers and dealers in America?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: All right. So let's talk about that. With me now, New York City council member from Brooklyn, Jamani Williams, and CNN commentator and "New York Times" op-ed columnist Charles Blow.

Welcome to both of you.

JAMANI WILLIAMS, NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL MEMBER: Thank you for having us.

COSTELLO: So, Jamani, this was your district. The crowd was very much into this. It must have been incredible to sit in that audience last night.

WILLIAMS: Not my district by definitely my borough so I'm very proud of Brooklyn. I was proud to be there. It was. It was like a sporting event actually with all the noise and action that was going on. COSTELLO: With cheers, boos and you said hisses?

WILLIAMS: I heard some hisses as well. Yes. I think Brooklyn won the debate actually, but I would say -- but one thing I came away with is I'm happy if any one of them get it over the Republicans. Each of them are better than any of the Republican candidates?

COSTELLO: You're not going to take a stand?

WILLIAMS: Well, I've been feeling the warm, not the Bern yet. But -- because gun control is a big issue for me. And gun violence, in particular. There's two buckets. Gun control and the supply and demand, and the violence, and the penchant for violence. And I think Bernie has been very good on dealing with the demand and the issues the cause the violence. I'm hoping he'll be a little clearer on the gun control issues.

COSTELLO: So are you disappointed that Bernie Sanders doesn't support that, you know, you can't sue gun control manufacturers right now, right? So --

WILLIAMS: So the thing is --

COSTELLO: He's against that.

WILLIAMS: All the conversation I've had actually with him directly and the campaign have actually gave good explanations of what he's saying. It doesn't come across publicly. So he does support suing if someone walks in and buys 6,000 rounds. He does support if there's straw purchases off dealers who are violating the law. Those are conversations I've had privately which I believe. And my hope is that that will come across more publicly so people can understand his stance a little bit.

COSTELLO: So, Charles, why does Bernie Sanders not support people's right to sue gun manufacturers.

CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Jamani is saying that he does. But he didn't say it last night. Right? So -- and that's the problem. You know, you can't -- say it in a private conversation doesn't help you. Saying it when you're on a debate stage a couple of days before New York City -- New York state primary, a state in which -- that has pretty strict gun laws and a state in which many of the guns used in gun violence in this state come from out of state, states that don't have strong gun control laws. That's a problem. That's the moment that you say it.

COSTELLO: Why didn't he say it?

BLOW: I have no clue.

WILLIAMS: I think, I mean, if you listen to it, he actually did kind of say it, but it's in between other things that are parsed out. And so it's frustrating to me because I want to fully embrace the Bern, but I'm hoping that he says this publicly before Tuesday, otherwise it's a very difficult situation that people like me who really are passionate about gun violence are put in. Again, the demand which is another bucket that people need to talk about, what's causing the penchant for violence in these communities, the resources that are needed. He's good on that part. And I think I really feel his message more on that end.

BLOW: But last night was an incredible deflection. Right? So instead of dealing with, you know, massive buys, the straw purchases, the idea, you know, that he dealt with what if I sell one gun shop owner sells one gun that's legal to one person? Well, that's not what we're talking about, and he knows that very well. What we're talking about is there are whole categories of guns that are specifically manufactured to kill other people. There's no other reason to have them.

And there are gun shop owners who have been traced back to those particular shops where they've been selling massive amounts of guns that are part of the gun trafficking trade. That's what people are talking about when they say we need to deal with these problem people. And he didn't say any of that. He kind of got around this kind of one person, one gun thing. And that's not -- and Bernie Sanders knows better than that.

COSTELLO: So Bernie Sanders is in Vatican City right now. He's going to talk to this conference and he hopes to meet with Pope Francis.

Charles, do you think that will resonate with New Yorkers? In the primaries, it's a couple days away. Right? He's looking --

(CROSSTALK)

BLOW: I don't know -- well, I think, first, I think he'll probably get a lot of press. Press is always good for Bernie. Bernie does -- you know, the more people know about Bernie, the more they like him.

[10:35:03] Do I think that it is the smartest move? I don't. I think that when you take a foreign trip like that, you do it to build your portfolio, to expand your resume, to say not only do I know a lot about these domestic issues which I care about, which I have talked to you about, which I, you know, I'm passionate about. I am also a world leader who can talk about world issues. If you take the world trip and you still talk about the domestic issue that you've been hammering, you know, for like months now or in Bernie case, 30 years, then it doesn't expand the resume. I don't know if it's the smartest move for him in this particular form.

COSTELLO: Although when the Pope came to New York City, Jamani, New York loved him, so why not?

WILLIAMS: Yes, they did. I think Charles is kind of saying it right. It's a mixed bag. My preference would have been that he stayed here and talked about some of the issues that I think he needs to expound upon like the gun control issue, but again it is a presidential move to do something like that. I'm not sure if it's the best thing to do before a primary, but there is some benefit that can come from talking about world issues on the world stage.

COSTELLO: OK. So last question. So who won the debate last night, Charles?

BLOW: There wasn't a knockout punch. It was ruckus, it was fun to watch, and it's kind of heated. It's very Brooklyn. It was very Brooklyn, but no knockout punch. And I think Bernie needed a knockout punch. The new CNN poll today, I think Hillary is up 17 points or something?

COSTELLO: Yes.

BLOW: That's a lot to close up in a few days, and to do that, you really need a moment where people say -- that you boil it out, crystallize it and say, she lost here because he really outflanked here and now I see why it is him, not her. That didn't happen. The ground did not shift in that way last night.

COSTELLO: OK. So you're still not feeling the Bern. You're just warm.

(LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS: I'm hoping we have time for it to change it. It was a good battle. I would definitely say I think Brooklyn won and I think New York won. Errol Louis won.

COSTELLO: Yes. Errol.

WILLIAMS: Definitely.

COSTELLO: And Dana Bash was fantastic.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely. Absolutely.

COSTELLO: And Wolf, too.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely. But I have to go with the hometown kid.

COSTELLO: I know. I know. I understand.

WILLIAMS: But I do think there's some time, and I will say he is much closer than people, even the gap in New York, even now is much closer than many people expected.

COSTELLO: OK. Thanks for stopping by, Charles Blow, Jamani Williams, I appreciate it.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Trump takes a dose of his own medicine. Ex-"Apprentices" tell the Donald he should be fired.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:16:50] COSTELLO: They once vied to be Donald Trump's next employee, but today six former contestants from the hit show "The Apprentice" are coming out swinging against their old boss, slamming what they say is a campaign of sexism, xenophobia, racism, violence, and hate.

Our senior media correspondent Brian Stelter joins me now with more on that. And they came out swinging.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: They sure did. These are contestants from some of the early seasons of "The Apprentice." One of them, the leader of the group, has been outspoken against the candidate for a number of months. Here's what was said at the press conference a few minutes ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We stand united as former candidates on "The Apprentice," not to denounce Donald Trump, the man, but to denounce Donald Trump the presidential candidate's message.

KWAME JACKSON, RUNNER UP, "THE APPRENTICE" SEASON 1: Trump has created a toxic ecosystem in our political discourse. Trump has appealed to the lowest common denominator of fear, racism, and divisiveness in our populous, and this mix is never the path to American progress.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Donald Trump is validating people's hate and his bigotry in a way that I truly believe has the potential to tear this country apart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STELTER: So six of these former contestants, very media savvy. Holding this press conference ahead of the New York primary. Trump of course has responded. He is calling them wannabes and failures. Here's part of his statement. He said, "They just want to get back in the limelight like they had when they were with Trump. Total dishonesty and disloyalty." That's Trump's response.

Of course there are other "Apprentice" that have been supporting Donald Trump. Omarosa, famously, also Pierce Morgan, the winner of the "Celebrity Apprentice," its first season. It's interesting, I think about how the "Celebrity Apprentice" really helped build up Trump, it helped teach him television skills, helped make him a better presidential candidate, but there's this double edged sword, this downside. Some of these former contestants not very happy with his campaign trail rhetoric.

COSTELLO: Now, it's interesting that they would all band together. I mean, I don't know how much it will hurt Donald Trump, frankly. I mean, there's no -- I mean, we'd have to ask better political minds to know about that.

STELTER: What they call Teflon Don, right?

COSTELLO: Yes. Teflon Don.

STELTER: But it's a reflection of sort of the dissent about Trump's candidacy and to have it coming from people that work with him, that were appearing on the show, it is potent. I think some people who watch the show who might sort of remember these contestants will be interested to hear from them. But I guess there's only six --

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: One of the contestants' comments was interesting because they said they're attacking Trump the man, they're attacking his message as a candidate.

STELTER: That's right. That's right. The best quote I heard was -- one of them saying, we want Kennedy, not Kardashianism. Right? So sort of presidential rhetoric and not reality show rhetoric. That's what I mean. I said there's a double edged sword that Trump, you know, a reality show star, certainly he benefited tremendously from being on NBC for a decade. But there is this downside as well.

And for now it's only six. We'll see if maybe other former "Apprentice" contestants also come forward, but there are dozens of stars of the show who haven't said anything negative about Donald.

COSTELLO: All right. Brian Stelter, thanks so much.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders both agree on raising the minimum wage, but that did not stop them from going after each other at last night's debate.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:48:47] COSTELLO: All right. We want to bring you back to Rome. To the Vatican. Because we understand that Senator Bernie Sanders has either finished speaking or he's in the process of speaking. We did get some bullet points of what he was talking about in front of the Vatican workshop and it's all about, you know, income inequality. At one part Bernie Sanders will tell the people in attendance, if we let the quest for profits dominate society, the workers become disposable cogs of the financial system. The vast inequalities of power and wealth lead to marginalization of the poor and the powerful, then the common good is squandered and the market economy fails us.

Also we did get a statement from Pope Francis because as we said Senator Sanders was hoping to meet with Pope Francis. Pope Francis released a statement apologizing for not being able to meet with Senator Sanders saying, "I realized today was going to be very complicated because of my trip to Lesbos. Today I confirmed the situation and would like to apologize for not being able to attend."

And as you know the Pope is going to the Greek island to Lesbos to pray for the immigrants coming over from -- or the migrants, rather, coming over from the Middle East. So we'll keep you posted on that.

We do have Bernie Sanders speaking, but we're not fast enough to turn that for you just yet. But we'll have it soon.

All right. Let's talk about the minimum wage because higher minimum wages are becoming a reality in some parts of the country.

[10:50:05] At last night's debate, Hillary Clinton said she had always been fighting to raise the minimum wage to $15. That provoked one of the testiest exchanges of the night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: If you look at it, we move more quickly to $15 in New York City more deliberately toward $12, $12.50 upstate, then to $15. That is exactly my position. It's a model for the nation, and that's what I will do as president.

BLITZER: Thank you. Senator --

CLINTON: Go as quickly as possible to get to $15.

SANDERS: I am sure a lot of people are very surprised to learn that you supported raising the minimum wage to 15 bucks an hour.

CLINTON: You know, wait a minute. Wait a minute.

(CROSSTALK)

SANDERS: That's just not accurate.

CLINTON: Wait, wait. Come on. I have stood on the debate stage with Senator Sanders eight prior times.

SANDERS: Wolf, can I -- excuse me.

CLINTON: I have said the exact same thing.

BLITZER: Secretary, Senator, please.

CLINTON: If we can raise it to $15 in New York or Los Angeles or Seattle, let's do it.

BLITZER: Secretary, the viewers -- if you're both screaming at each other, the viewers won't be able to hear either of you so please don't talk over each other.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: All right. Those pictures you were seeing of course were from Vatican City. We think Bernie Sanders might have been somewhere in there but I couldn't see him. OK. We're going to go back there. Bernie Sanders, you can see him leaving this workshop right now, and you can see that there are supporters there cheering on Bernie Sanders. And, you know, we assume they're American visitors to Rome. But we really don't know but you can hear them chanting Bernie, Bernie, to the candidate's delight.

We did talk to Bernie Sanders' campaign manager earlier this morning and he said that this visit by Bernie Sanders contrasts him to Hillary Clinton and brings, you know, more light on the fact of global wage inequality around the world.

Let's listen for just a second.

All right. So quite a scene in Rome as Bernie Sanders leaves this Vatican workshop. Alison Kosik is here, and you're going to talk about the minimum wage.

But, you know, Bernie Sanders is in Rome to talk about income inequality. So this visit totally fits in with his message.

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: It does. I mean, this -- and this is his appeal to his supporters, isn't it? Are these inequities that he's talking about, especially when we talk about wages. And before we got to this great video of him kind of being a rock star there at the Vatican, we showed that fiery exchange between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. And what a fiery exchange it was because the way Hillary Clinton answered it is that she has been a supporter of minimum wage -- $15 minimum wage forever.

That's not necessarily entirely true. As much as the fact that yes, Hillary Clinton does support a higher federal minimum wage, it hasn't always been for $15. In November she proposed a $12 minimum wage and you saw Bernie Sanders called her out on it, saying, wait a minute, you referred that back to the states. And that was essentially what Hillary Clinton does is that she said yes, I support a higher federal minimum wage, but leave it up to the states to raise it to $15.

COSTELLO: To decide how much, right?

KOSIK: And -- but that's what they've been doing for over a year now. We saw that in California, we clearly saw that in New York. She stood by Governor Cuomo with that bill.

COSTELLO: I think I hear Senator Sanders speaking so let's try to listen here.

SANDERS: The economy. In my country and around the world, we are seeing a handful of very, very wealthy people become wealthier while most people are becoming poorer. In fact the top 1 percent of people on this planet now own more wealth than the bottom 99 percent. That, to me, is unacceptable. It is unsustainable. It is immoral and together we have got to change that.

And I have been enormously impressed by Pope Francis speaking out and his visionary views about creating a moral economy, an economy that works for all people, not just the people on top. And what he has said over and over again, we cannot allow the market just to do what the market does.

[10:55:05] That's not acceptable. We have got to engrain moral principles into our economy. And there is no area where that is clearer than in the area of climate change. The greed of the fossil fuel industry is literally destroying our planet. The scientists are virtually unanimous. Climate change is real and it is caused by human activity. It is already causing devastating problems all over this planet.

And whether the fossil fuel industry likes it or not, we have got to transform our energy system away from fossil fuel to energy efficiency and sustainable energy. And what Pope Francis has told us over and over again is we have the wealth to do that. We have the technology to do that. We have the know-how to do that. But we have got to confront is the greed of people who are so much

more concerned about their own billions than the future of the children and the future of our planet.

So I am just so excited to be here, so proud to be here with other like-minded people who are trying to do our best to create a moral economy.

Jeff, where are you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right here, in front of you.

SANDERS: I want Jeff --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator, will you see the Pope?

SANDERS: Jeff, the moral economy. Jeff -- where's Jeff?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will you see the Pope?

SANDERS: Jeff wanted to say a few words.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just, I want to say how thrilled the participants are today to have Senator Sanders and hear his very powerful words today. All day we've been discussing the enormous crisis of inequality of income, the injustice of the world economy because we've been reflecting on Pentecost 25th anniversary where Pope John Paul II warned us of these things if greed and power is let out of moral control, we lose.

Senator Sanders has been making this point again and again, every part of my country and around the world, and I can tell you because I've been with the participants, how thrilled the many of the leaders of this church and many of the participants from around the world are to welcome Senator Sanders here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you going meet the Pope?

(CROSSTALK)

SANDERS: I believe that the Pope (INAUDIBLE). In trying to create a new world economy and a new vision for the people of our country. What he is saying is that we cannot continue to go forward when so few have so much and when greed is such a destructive force not only in the United States but throughout this world. So I have long been a supporter of the economic vision of Pope Francis, his views on climate change have played a profound role.

Let me tell you, I'm a member of the Senate Committee on the Environment. Pope Francis' encyclical has played a profound role in turning many people's minds around about the urgency of the moment in terms of dealing with climate change. So when I received this invitation, I know it's taking me away from the campaign trail for a day, but when I received this information, it was so moving to me that it was something that I could just simply not refuse to attend.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think it will help you with the Catholic vote in New York, though?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much.

SANDERS: Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: All right. You can see Senator Bernie Sanders, Alison Kosik, pretty much a rock star. Ben Wedeman is there.

Who are all those people? Are they American tourists? Are they just reporters? Who are they, Ben?

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: We understand it's a collection of, of course, journalists and people here, tourists, residents of Rome, Americans who have come to express their support for Bernie Sanders. So it's a mix of people, but, of course, he's saying what we heard him say during this conference on the changes in the global economy in the last 25 years, stressing, as was the topic of his paper, the urgency of a moral economy.

COSTELLO: All right. Ben Wedeman reporting live from Rome, from the -- near the Vatican. Thanks so much.

Thank you.