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Trump: Delegate System is Crooked, Rigged; Japan Reeling from Back-to-Back Earthquakes; Clinton and Sanders on Home Turf in New York; Immigrants Weigh in on Trump's Border Wall; The Race to Save the Endangered Black Rhino. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired April 17, 2016 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00] PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Pamela Brown, in for Poppy Harlow on this Sunday. Nice to have you along with us.
It is the race for the White House, and despite being a national contest the focus for the next few days is right here in New York where I am. Primary day is Tuesday and the two favorites to win have not faired so well in the most recent contest. Republican Donald Trump and Democrat Hillary Clinton both are looking for campaign booster shots with expected big wins in New York and that state's very generous delegate haul.
Hitting the trail on Long Island, former president, Bill Clinton. He attended services at two churches and he spoke to the people there about his wife's plan to lower student death and make child care more affordable.
Donald Trump, a packed campaign schedule, rallies and lunch on Staten Island and then a visit of his high school alma mater, a military academy right outside the city.
CNN's Chris Frates has been in Poughkeepsie where Donald Trump repeated his claim that delegate system in his words is crooked and rigged.
Chris, this is from a guy who would probably dominate the New York primary. Does he explain why he is blowing on those losses out west?
CHRIS FRATES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, you're exactly right here, Pam. He's continued to kind of hit this idea that this whole system is rigged and that's because he didn't have a great weekend. If you look at what Ted Cruz is able to do in Wyoming, he was able to sweep all the delegates out of that state's convention. It was very similar to what he did in Colorado just a week or so ago, and Donald Trump clearly frustrated by that, and getting his supporters riled up about it, saying that the whole system is rigged because nobody voted.
Take a listen to what he said here in Rochester just a few hours ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have a system that's rigged. We have a system that's crooked. We have a system that's got a lot of problems and we have a system that doesn't allow the people to vote in many cases. And if they do vote, their vote isn't really representative of what it should be.
We have this delegate system which is a sham. So, in Colorado, the people are going crazy out there because they never got a chance to vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FRATES: Now, the Republican National Committee, Pam, saying that that's just not true, that the candidates knew the rules for months now and that - the states could either hold primaries, they can hold caucuses, or they can hold these state conventions, and that, in fact, this whole process is the same process we've been going through since 1860 on the Republican side. It is what is used to nominate Abraham Lincoln.
So, the Republican saying that, you know, certainly, this is not a rigged system, Pam.
BROWN: And Ted Cruz echoed that sentiment, right? In a tweet where he basically waved his recent victories in Trump's face a little bit.
FRATES: That's exactly right. He was taking a little bit after victory lap. He's gotten five wins in a row here. If we can put that tweet up, I will read it to you.
He said, "Donald, over 1.3 million people just voted in Utah, North Dakota, Wisconsin, Colorado and Wyoming, you lost all five in a row by huge margins hashtag no whining.
So, you know, he is taking a bit of a victory lap and he should enjoy it, because if polls are to be believed here in New York, he is lagging Donald Trump by double digits. And we saw that as Donald Trump got his fellow New Yorkers riled up, he is winning in the most recent "Wall Street Journal" poll by 54 percent, Ted Cruz just 16 percent.
That's very good news for Donald Trump. If he can win over 50 percent in this statewide and each congressional district, he has a shot at taking home all 95 delegates, getting close to that number of 1,237 that he needs to clench that nomination. Of course, Ted Cruz and John Kasich, they are trying to stop Trump and take this all the way to Cleveland. So, they're both going to need to perform here on Tuesday. And we will be watching this very closely, because this race, Pam, it just gets hotter and hotter as we get closer and closer to Tuesday.
BROWN: All right. Chris Frates, thank you so much.
And joining us now to discuss, Tara Setmayer, she's a CNN political commentator and conservative who does not support front-runner Donald Trump. And then, Boris Epshteyn does however. He is a Republican strategist.
Tara, first, you. Just on the heels of what Chris said. New York could be pivotal in some ways, particularly if Donald Trump sweeps up all 95 delegates. So, why hasn't Ted Cruz seemingly put forth more of a fight in New York to get in Trump's way with the delegates?
TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think because he recognized that the delegates in Colorado and in Wyoming and places like that, those are opportunities for Ted Cruz with more friendly territory. We know Ted Cruz is losing pretty dramatically here in New York. This was never going to be an area that was going to be, you know, fertile ground for Ted Cruz.
But the issue here of whether Donald Trump gets 50 percent or not, even if Donald Trump got all 50 percent and swept all of the delegates, Ted Cruz would still be net 45 delegates given the last five contests.
[18:05:01] So, moving forward -- I mean, Ted Cruz is right, saying hey, hey, all these people voted and by the way, Wisconsin was an open primary, was not just a caucus. But I don't hear Donald Trump complaining about Wisconsin.
So, you know, it is convenient feigned outrage for Donald Trump when he loses in areas where he has been outworked, doesn't have an organization, and it is very easy propaganda for him to go after the process of being rigged, because, you know, repeating it over and over again now whips people into a frenzy and takes away from the fact that his campaign apparatus has been inept.
BROWN: OK. So, to your point, in the heels of Wyoming, Colorado, we keep hearing Donald Trump say the process is rigged, crooked. But one does wonder if it worked in his favor like in Wyoming and Colorado, whether he would be coming out and saying the same thing. And particularly on Tuesday, he is expected to win. Will he be equally critical of the system then?
BORIS EPSHTEYN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, he is not critical of the primary system. He is critical of Colorado, and critical of Wyoming specifically.
BROWN: But do you think he would be if he was winning -- if he won those states? Do you think he would be critical?
EPSHTEYN: I think if people voted in those states --
BROWN: So, that's no.
EPSHTEYN: So, what Cruz said is, oh, people voted in Colorado, Wyoming. They did not vote. There were conventions. You can't say people voted when they didn't.
Now, if you talk about net 45 delegates, Trump is up throughout the whole process. As we move forward not just to New York, to Pennsylvania, where he is up by 20, to Maryland where he's up by 20, and then to California where is up by 18, New Jersey where he's up by double digits, all of this talk is gong to be behind us as Trump will be well on his way to 1,237.
BROWN: So, I know Tara says, look, the rules are rules, they have been around for, you know, so many years now just accept it. EPSHTEYN: They changed.
SETMAYER: A hundred sixty.
BROWN: Fine, fine. I will say, you know, you look at some states like Georgia where Trump won and then most of the delegates that are going to the convention in support of Ted Cruz, some people may look at that and say that doesn't square. Doesn't that just bolster Trump's argument?
SETMAYER: Yes, unfortunately, Donald Trump is preying on folks that don't know the system. So, if you don't know how the system works and you don't know what it is --
EPSHTEYN: It's funny.
SETMAYER: It's true actually.
EPSHTEYN: It is not true.
SETMAYER: It is easy to be able to mislead people into thinking that the system is rigged. It's absolutely not true that no one voted in Colorado. Sixty thousand registered Republicans voted in Colorado through a caucus system, which has been around since the 1820s. So, you know, just for a little bit of perspective --
EPSHTEYN: But Colorado switched this time around.
SETMAYER: You know what, last time Colorado had a primary in 2000, do you know how many people voted in that primary in total? Two hundred and sixty-nine people voted.
EPSHTEYN: That's more than 60,000, isn't it?
SETMAYER: That's both Democrats and Republicans. That's a far cry from the million people that Donald Trump says were disenfranchised.
EPSHTEYN: So, why not let people vote? Why not let people vote?
SETMAYER: That's up to the people of Colorado. Those Colorado legislature, which is elected by the people, made the decision to go back to a caucus system so to save money because Colorado was never really a factor because usually by now we have a nominee.
(CROSSTALK)
EPSHTEYN: So you shouldn't have a democratic process?
SETMAYER: No, a caucus is a democratic process. It's absolutely as a matter of fact, all the grassroots people who are average citizens who pay their own way to be a part of the convention start at the precinct level, to the county level, go to the state convention, it is not fair for you to claim that's not democratic. It is arrogant actually. It sounds like New York arrogance.
(CROSSTALK) EPSHTEYN: OK, another New York values comment.
SETMAYER: No, I'm from Jersey, so I get it.
EPSHTEYN: Listen --
SETMAYER: New Yorkers don't whine like Donald Trump --
EPSHTEYN: What Donald Trump is saying -- Donald Trump is a New Yorker. He's not whining.
SETMAYER: He is whining.
EPSHTEYN: He's pointing a true problem, which is, why not just let everybody vote?
BROWN: But why didn't he point out before then? Like in the very beginning when he first entered the race, we're just now hearing about it when he is starting to lose in the states.
EPSHTEYN: That's not true, we talked about the problem in Iowa. And he said, it's in Iowa, it's a caucus system, he would rather be a problem in our system.
SETMAYER: Where he lost.
EPSHTEYN: There wasn't a great ground game in Iowa and he came back in New Hampshire, and they crushed in New Hampshire and look all over the country. He's done so much better than Cruz all over the country, Northeast, Southeast, Southwest, and is continuing to do so.
BROWN: I think one thing you two will agree on is that New York matters more than it has in the past?
EPSHTEYN: Right, which is great.
BROWN: From your view, how pivotal is the primary on Tuesday in terms of getting it a contested convention, in terms of momentum. Stopping Cruz's momentum if he loses and doesn't get delegates?
SETMAYER: Well, that was the reason why I brought up the fact that even with Donald Trump winning all 95 delegates, that Cruz still has in a net delegate from the last, in the delegate hall, from the last five races moving forward, that's a momentum. But for optics, of course, it's going to allow the Trump supporters to sit here and say, oh, Donald Trump is back.
After that, we have Pennsylvania and other places, but it still doesn't mean he is going it make it to the 1,237 number, which is not an arbitrary number. It is the majority of delegates that he needs in order to win. That rule has been in place for 160 years. If it is good enough for Abraham Lincoln, it should be good enough for Donald Trump.
EPSHTEYN: Abraham Lincoln became the nominee through a contested convention. BROWN: That's correct.
EPSHTEYN: So, there's no problem. No problem at all.
SETMAYER: Your candidate is claiming it is rigged if he doesn't get it.
EPSHTEYN: For Donald Trump to get to be the nominee through a contested convention, we'll be fine with that, and we will get there because Trump will unquestionably be the leading candidate going into the convention --
(CROSSTALK)
[18:10:02] BROWN: So if there is one Trump will walk out --
EPSHTEYN: Here is the fact. Very important to remember, there's six weeks between the last primaries, which is California and New Jersey and the convention. Trump is going to go in, even if he doesn't get to 1,237, he'd be 50 short at worst, you think he won't be able to get 150 of those unbound delegates to side? Of course he will.
And Cruz people are going to keep talking about how every election doesn't matter. Trump is going to crush in New York, doesn't matter. Won big in Pennsylvania, doesn't matter. Big in Maryland, doesn't matter p. We will win from here on out, and every time you hear someone from the Cruz side say, it doesn't matter, then it will pop magical candidate.
(CROSSTALK)
SETMAYER: If he happens to have a plurality, that's what people don't understand.
EPSHTEYN: Millions and millions more people voted for Donald Trump so far.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: We will keep the conversation going online.
This Tuesday, it's that battle we were just talking about for New York and the stakes couldn't be higher. It could all be come down to this. New York primaries, all-day coverage on Tuesday, only on CNN.
And meantime, Bernie Sanders visiting his hometown today. We're going live in Brooklyn, New York, just ahead to see the reception he received and discuss his chances on Tuesday. We'll also talk about Sanders main rival Hillary Clinton and latest attacks against her from Donald Trump. A possible preview of what we'll see in the fall.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: An encouraging sign of hope coming out of Ecuador. Just hours ago, a young girl was pulled out live from a hotel that was leveled in Saturday's disaster. The rescue happening along Ecuador's central coast, just south of where the epicenter of where the 7.8 magnitude quake struck. The death toll stands at 238.
[18:15:04] More than 1,500 others are injured, aside from the urgent rescue attempts operations are under way to distribute drinking water and medicine to hard-hit areas.
And the tremor following back to back earthquakes that rocked Southeast Japan. CNN's Matt Rivers tours one of the hardest hit towns and speaks to one woman struggling to process what just happened.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATT RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Her 80-year-old father survived when this building collapsed on top of him. And that's the only piece of good news Kiyomi Matsuoka has gotten.
"It's just so surreal," she says. "I'm still in shock."
Kiyomi's family ran a saloon in this building for 40 years. They lived together in the back. But two earthquakes, the first on Thursday, then again on Saturday, shredded her home.
"It's devastating," she says. "Utterly devastating."
Kiyomi is like tens of thousands of others in southwest Japan still reeling from the unexpected disasters. Dozens were killed, hundreds injured and some are still missing, buried under twisted metal and wood.
We watched as a rescue team went property by property looking for anyone still alive. It's grim work. Few have been found so far. But that's partly because precautions were taken.
(on camera): This picture is from Friday. Looks like right now.
Oddly enough, many people very we have spoken to in the neighborhood say they are happy two earthquakes occurred. After the first one hit, tens of thousands of people were forced to evacuate from neighborhoods like this one. So, when the second one hit on Saturday some 15 times stronger than the first one, there are less people around. That might have saved lives.
(voice-over): Most of those evacuees ended up at shelters like this one. Parents, kids, grandparents, dog, some don't have homes to return to. The ones that do are simply too afraid to go back for year of more aftershocks.
"Everything was shaking so badly during the earthquake," he said, "I thought it was the end of my life."
Count Kiyomi Matsuoka as one of those with nowhere to go. She is staying in her car for now, but was so stoic and calm when she talked us to. She only choked up when we asked her, what comes next.
"I wanted this business to stay in my family for generations," she says. "I'm not sure that can happen now."
The earthquakes were over in a few moments but their effect will be felt far longer than that.
Matt Rivers, CNN, Kumamoto, Japan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: So much devastation there.
And for more information on how can you help the rescue and relief efforts in Ecuador, as well as in Japan, just go to CNN.com/impact.
Well, New York, a huge prize for which ever candidate can win on Tuesday. We're going to talk about what group of voters, Muslims, and why some say they are feeling the Bern, after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:21:46] BROWN: The days before New York's primaries are dwindling and candidates are hastily making last ditch efforts to win over voters. But when it comes to Bernie Sanders, there is one group the 74-year-old Jewish Senator may have already won, Muslims.
"Daily Beast" contributor Dean Obeidallah joins me now for more on this.
So, you say that Muslims in New York are feeling the Bern. Why is that?
DEAN OBEIDALLAH, DAILY BEAST CONTRIBUTOR: You're feeling the Bern big time. My Facebook newsfeed is filled with my Muslims friends saying you have to come to events like in Brooklyn. I'm getting emails from friends saying join resolution.
If a Muslim typically sends that, maybe the FBI shows that. But in this case, they're meaning for good reasons. Join Bernie Sanders. It's really for the same reasons we hear nationally, with an extra issue. With the same reasons are closing in equality gap. You know, college education cost, bringing it down or free.
The extra issue is the Palestinian Israeli conflict. We hear Bernie Sanders and we saw it Thursday at CNN debate talked about Palestinians as human beings. Now, he's still proudly pro-Israel. He talks about security.
But we've not heard an American-leading presidential candidate talk about Palestinians and their fears and their aspirations, unemployment rates in Gaza, rebuilding Gaza, and I think that resonates not with all Muslims, but with money.
But I just want to point, I've got tweet from Muslims supporting Hillary. You know, I speak a lot of Muslim groups around the country, and I've been asking for the last few months, who do you like, Bernie the biggest cheers, Hillary some, you want Muslims go silent, ask who is supporting Ted Cruz. If you want to hear them laugh, ask if anyone supporting Donald Trump. That gets biggest laughter from people.
BROWN: But you've actually met a couple right that actually some Muslims who do support Donald Trump, surprisingly.
OBEIDALLAH: They do, for their own reasons. They just think it is good for the economy. I tried to talk about, what is the other rhetoric. They go, oh, he doesn't mean that.
You have to hold them to their word. If someone says they're going to ban all Muslims or surveillance of all Muslims in America, and less constitutional rights because of our faith, take them at their word. So, it's a very small percentage. It's mostly Bernie and Hillary supporters.
And again the Muslim community now, 70 percent Democrat. While in 2000, they went for George Bush. But over the years, the demonization of the Muslim community by certain Republicans pushing even wealthy conservative Muslims who would be natural allies for Republicans over to the Democratic Party.
BROWN: So, just to put this in perspective, do you think the Muslim- Americans make up enough of the demographic to make an impact here in New York and elsewhere?
OBEIDALLAH: We are the key. We are the ones you have to -- no.
BROWN: I have a feeling you might be biased, Dean.
OBEIDALLAH: Slightly overplaying. In Michigan, yes. Bernie won by a percentage and a half. Muslims came out big. It was documented by the media. He won Dearborn big, the biggest Muslim population.
BROWN: Well, it's only 1 percent of the U.S. population.
OBEIDALLAH: Well, it's true. In New York, we have actually probably the biggest population over all but we're bigger state than Michigan. Maybe 400,000 Muslims in New York City and about 700,000, 800,000 all together. In Brooklyn, there are places very dominated by Muslims, so Bernie can pick up delegates.
Upstate New York, no one talks about it, Albany, Buffalo, 15, 20 percent of the areas now Muslim. It's the second biggest group in those areas of New York. They can help Bernie win a delegate or two up there.
So, I don't think it will tip the balance in a race that shows Hillary winning by 10. But in certain congressional districts, it could help them win tickets.
BROWN: Do you see them more involved in the process now than what you've seen in the past?
OBEIDALLAH: Yes, for two reasons. One, Bernie has embraced the Muslim community and Hillary is too. I get e-mails from Muslims.
[18:25:01] Hillary for Muslims.
Donald Trump, honestly, the fear he has imbued in the Muslim population has turned many to come out and register and vote. They've never been registered before. They're getting involved in politics. We hear the rhetoric from Donald Trump -- the Latino community said the same thing. I wrote about it for CNN.
Donald Trump is animating us in a way we didn't think would be possible. And it is a good thing.
BROWN: So, when you look at Bernie Sanders, though, he's a Jewish senator. He just came back from a trip to Vatican City. As you said, he has really sort of galvanized Muslim Americans. Why do you think he appeals to so many different religions?
OBEIDALLAH: I think, first of all, he is a loveable guy. How can you not like Bernie Sanders? I think he's a lovable guy, and I like Hillary Clinton too. I like them both.
I think that he's so authentic and he is so real. And these are words others have said, but I think when you hear what he talks about, it resonates with people. I think the issue with Muslims and Jews, I tink there are people in the media who've thought, why would you like a Jewish person?
There is no theological reason Muslims and Jews and Christians, we should not get along. We should all get along, especially in America. We're all in this together. So, it resonates -- Bernie's message resonates. Many Muslims feeling the Bern. Some Hillary feeling the Bern -- feeling the Hillary as well.
BROWN: Feeling the Hill.
All right. Dean Obeidallah, thank you so much, and they're feeling it in Brooklyn today because Bernie Sanders is getting a massive welcoming. His campaign says more than 28,000 people showed up to today's rally. So, with captive audience in just two days before the primaries, what does Sanders have to say and should Hillary be worried? We head to Brooklyn, up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, Bernie Sanders is working hard to get his home turf fired up and help him catch Clinton in the New York primary on Tuesday. Sanders spent the day touring his hometown of Brooklyn, New York, where he was born. And he just wrapped up a rowdy Brooklyn rally where he sounded a wee bit horse from so much talking on the campaign trail.
Actor Danny de Vito introduced Sanders to the crowd and Sanders just tweeted that 28,000 people showed up, his largest ever.
[18:30:06] Let's bring in CNN correspondent Brynn Gingras right outside the Sanders rally.
So, Brynn, what did Bernie have to say today?
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, feel the Bern, political revolution, it's what those 28,000 people were screaming about. So Bernie was certainly feeding off of this crowd today and really sticking to his talking points that we've heard him talk about in past rallies. And also of course on CNN's Democratic debate this week. And that is really how he is different from Hillary Clinton on issues like foreign policy, trade policy, minimum wage, environmental policies and of course the big one that he always points to and that's campaign fundraising.
He says of course that he is very, very different from Hillary Clinton. So the fact that he is not part or in bed with the 1 percent. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Here is a simple truth, which everybody understands whether you're progressive or conservative, and that is you cannot have a Super PAC raise many millions of dollars from Wall Street or special interests and then tell the American people with a straight face that you're going to stand up to the big money interest. Not true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GINGRAS: Yes, you can hear the applause that was after that remark. And honestly, it is something that's resonating with a lot of voters who were in this crowd today. We even found one person who is from Norway, came all the way here, to New York, just to hear him speak. Of course he can't vote but this is certainly an issue that's resonating across the globe -- Pamela.
BROWN: All right, Brynn Gingras, we'll leave it there. Thank you so much.
And to discuss Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, the fact that they're battling out for every New Yorker's vote, Sanders appeared on CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION" today and did not have a direct answer to a big question from our Dana Bash. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Saudi Arabia has told the Obama administration that it will sell off hundreds of billions of dollars of American assets if Congress allows the Saudi government to be held responsible in American courts for any role in the 9/11 attacks. How do you intend to vote as a senator?
SANDERS: Well, I need more information before I can give you that decision but clearly I have, as you have heard me say, a whole lot of concerns about the role that Saudi Arabia has been playing for many, many years. Not just the individuals who came from Saudi Arabia who attacked us on 9/11. But their support for ISIS and other terrorist organizations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: All right. Let's talk it over with Hillary Clinton supporter Maria Cardona and Bernie Sanders supporter Nomi Konst.
So, Nomi, did Sanders just flub a key foreign policy question? Why doesn't he know how to vote on the 9/11 bill?
NOMIKI KONST, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think that a lot of the 9/11 bill, and obviously this isn't something that hasn't been out in the open, those 28 pages, and it's been a very difficult thing to discuss because it has been so private and even members of Congress haven't been able to access those 28 pages. It is highly secretive. And I think that he answered it perfectly well. I mean, we don't know until we know. And obviously the president has access to that information so I'm sure he knows.
I don't believe Hillary did. I don't know what the security standards are for the 28 pages that are redacted. But it is a very complicated story and a lot of reporters don't understand it. A lot of congressional members don't understand it because they don't have access.
BROWN: But is there a concern, though, that something like that will just feed the impression on the heels of the "New York Daily News" article that --
KONST: Yes.
BROWN: You know, he doesn't really have specifics, that there's not substance to back up what he's saying?
KONST: Well, I think that everything has to be taken within context. I mean, that "New York Daily News" article was a very long -- that transcript was a very long interview. And a lot of it has been fact- checked. Some of it was fact-checked by the "New York Times" about his economic policy and they said things like, you know, the "New York Daily News" editorial board didn't have enough information on -- they didn't understand how the economy worked.
And they were asking questions and being belittling when he was just giving simple answers. It is a campaign. When you get into too many details people get lost. It is important to know your information and he does. And he has policies listed on his Web site in detail. Obviously Hillary Clinton was secretary of state and she knows the names and the faces. That doesn't necessarily mean that her record was strong as secretary of state. And I think we need to distinguish the two. She has a resume and that's great, as does he. But she doesn't have a strong record as secretary of state. And that's from Libya to Myanmar to Honduras to many other situations when she tried to negotiate a deal. Israel, I mean, she doesn't have a lot of points on her record.
BROWN: Maria, what do you have to say to that? I mean, I know there was concern among Clinton supporters after President Obama said his biggest mistake was not having a game plan after Libya. Others would argue she has a strong record of secretary of state. What is your view?
MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely she has a strong record as secretary of state. And look, Bernie's answer to that question, taken on its own, I don't think there should be concern because, you know, a lot of candidates and frankly a lot of people don't have access to those kinds of details.
[18:35:03] But I think on the heels of that "New York Daily News" interview, and take aside or put aside the fact that he couldn't even answer questions about his own domestic policy in breaking up the banks, his answer on foreign policy which was that he had none when he was asked what he thought about, you know, fighting the war on terror with drone strikes, he had no answer to that. He didn't know what he would do if he captured while president a terrorist from ISIS. Had no clue.
KONST: Not true.
CARDONA: And so I think taken together those things really do underscore the fact that Hillary Clinton is really the one in this race that is prepared on day one to take on the mantle of commander- in-chief without any cliff notes, without having to have a team around her to coach her through the details of what it takes to make those very difficult decisions. And there's a reason why poll after poll you see that Americans trust Hillary Clinton in terms of foreign policy and --
(CROSSTALK)
KONST: Whoa. That's not true. There's 34 percent approval rating among Democrats right now.
CARDONA: Better than anybody else -- better than anybody else in the race including Bernie Sanders and every single Republican. That's why.
BROWN: OK, so, Nomi, you keep saying that's not true, that's not true.
KONST: Yes. So, I mean, there's a lot of things aren't. I encourage people to actually read the transcripts. You know, he was talking about what to do with ISIS members. He was talking about whether or not he'd put them in Guantanamo Bay or bring them -- or put them abroad, or in America. And that is something that we debate in the House, and that's something that should be debated because that is an issue of contention on both sides and within the Democratic Party.
Now let's talk about Libya. I spent time in Libya after fortunately Ambassador Chris Stevens passed away in Benghazi. And the problem with Libya is that we didn't do anything after we encouraged NATO to Tomahawk those weapons facilities. And you had lots of different weapons floating around. And there was no plan. And it was the number one thing that people complained about in Libya. They were so grateful that we interviewed but they complained that they didn't have any no support. And it's about foresight.
So we didn't learn any lessons from Iraq. We didn't learn any lessons from Vietnam. And as Democrats, I mean, it's so important that we think before we go to war. When we think about those situations --
BROWN: OK -- KONST: One thing. Think about those situation room meetings between
Joe Biden, who was the chair of the -- of the Foreign Relations Committee, and Hillary Clinton and how they were constantly at battle over whether or not to send troops. And I think Joe Biden always had the right information and had the right judgment as his son was overseas in Afghanistan and Hillary Clinton was encouraged to send troops every single step of the way. She's hawkish and is out of line with the Democratic Party.
BROWN: OK. Really quickly, I want to go to -- before we lose all the time, this -- to a clip from an interview I did earlier with "New York Times" opinion columnist Charles Blow, who basically said Sanders and to a certain extent, Hillary Clinton, is essentially overpromising. With Sanders it's political revolution that he says is unrealistic. Let's listen to him and talk on the other end.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES BLOW, OP-ED COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES: The founders did not want revolution. Even though they were kind of revolutionary in their own right. But this country -- we have to remember, this country was founded to privilege white men with money. And they did not want anyone to upset that. And so they restricted kind of voter access. There was a tremendous amount of restriction at the founding of the country and we have over the centuries kind of expanded access and equality in this country but still that original privilege remains and it is not built to be overturned very easily.
And so this idea that you can all of a sudden in one cycle have a revolutionary change is really -- the system is not built that way. You have -- you built this system over decades and centuries. It will probably take decades and centuries to dismantle this system that we have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So what's your reaction? Basically he's saying Sanders is overpromising.
KONST: Well, I think that -- listen, Thomas Jefferson said that there should be a revolution every generation. And the last generation the revolution that the baby boomers did was they took the reforms that the Democratic Party went through in 1979 and 1980, and in 1981 they decided to make it a corporative party. They changed the model. And that was 35 years ago. And now it's really clear that when 70 percent of the party is more progressive and that they want to have -- they want it to be a people's party again, they want to get money out of politics, there are ways that we can to legislate out of it. There are ways that the rules can change in the DNC.
Doesn't mean that the system is going to change overnight or we're burning down the house but it doesn't mean that we sit on our hands and say well, that's status quo. Let's just keep it as it is.
BROWN: What do you think, Maria?
CARDONA: I think --
BROWN: Are voters are going to be disappointed when it is all said and done?
CARDONA: No. Because I think what it means is that the leaders that they elect should actually have real plans and real proposals and -- and be pragmatic about how to get things done. Yes, you can be -- you can call for a political revolution. But then you have to put forth proposals that actually make sense and where your numbers actually add up, which is frankly the problem with Bernie Sanders when have you all of his economic proposals and the lack of foreign policy proposals, people are kind of left with well, we love what he is saying but there is no way that he can get it done.
[18:40:07] And I think what Hillary Clinton focused on in the debate and really crystallized the core of their differences is every time that she said, that it is easy to diagnose a problem, which Bernie Sanders does beautifully, it is much harder to find a solution, which is what she does beautifully.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: I know you both hate not having the final word and I'm so sorry. But we do have to go. In fact we were given more time than allotted.
Nomi, Maria, thank you very much for that.
And by the way, you can hear from Bernie Sanders tomorrow morning on "NEW DAY" in the 8:00 a.m. Eastern hour.
Well, Donald Trump's promise to build a border wall has become one of the biggest and most divisive pledges of his campaign. Up next what some Mexican immigrants think about how Trump plans to pay for it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're going to have strong borders and we're going to have the wall. We'll have the wall.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, it's one of the most controversial promises of Donald Trump's campaign. And at a New York rally just a few hours ago he once again pledged to build a border wall between the U.S. and Mexico.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're going to have strong borders and we're going to have the wall. Are you ready? Are you ready?
CROWD: Build that wall. Build that wall.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: Well, Trump says he'll make Mexico pay for this wall by stopping undocumented immigrants from sending money back home. While his supporters seem to like the idea, as you heard there, what do immigrants think?
Here's CNN's Rafael Romo with more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RAFAEL ROMO, CNN SR. LATIN AMERICAN AFFAIRS EDITOR: If you go to communities across the United States with high concentration of immigrants from Latin America, you're going to find places like this.
Here in Atlanta, Fiesta Plaza not only shopping center but also a place where immigrants, mainly Mexicans, get together. They shop, they dine in little restaurants like this one and they do one more thing that is crucial for their families back home, they send money to Mexico.
DIANA CUBILLOS, IMMIGRANT: It's very important to send money because they are working really hard here and they have -- most of them they have families over there and it's very hard to find jobs in Mexico.
ROMO (voice-over): Donald Trump's reported plan to force the Mexican government to pay for a border wall by stopping undocumented immigrants from transferring money to Mexico as you can imagine is cause for great concern for Mexican immigrants, documented or not.
"This is complete foolishness," she says. "He can do it and we will let him. We're going to keep on sending money to our people as we always have."
According to Mexico Central bank, Mexicans abroad sent nearly $24.8 billion to their country last year, mainly from the United States. This is more money than Mexico's total oil revenues for 2015, estimated at $23.4 billion.
This is the first time that incoming money transfers are higher than oil revenues since they started taking records in 1995.
(On camera): So Donald Trump wants to block money transfers to Mexico to build a wall. What do you think about that?
(Voice-over): "He only makes me laugh," she says. "I don't agree. I'm proudly Mexicans and don't agree with what this gentleman wants to do."
"He's crazy," she says. "They should take him to see a psychiatrist. I hope all Hispanics, those of us who are citizens, go out and vote against him."
These immigrants say no matter what, Mexicans will always find a way to help their families back home.
Rafael Romo, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And coming up on this Sunday, hunting a species on the verge of extinction. Bill Weir takes us to two nations trying to z protect rare rhinos. Why one allows the hunting of even the most endangered wildlife.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:51:16] BROWN: Well, turning to a place of great beauty that's trying to beat an ugly trade. A country where it seems like scenes from the "Lion King" come to life while certain species are on the verge of extinction.
In the latest episode of CNN's "THE WONDER LIST" Bill Weir head to Botswana and witnesses the efforts to save the critically endangered black rhino.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL WEIR, CNN HOST, THE WONDER LIST (on camera): That horn on the black market sells for about $30,000 a pound. Twice the price of cocaine. On par with gold. It's the one thing this animal uses to defend itself. It's the one thing that makes it one of the most vulnerable creatures in the world.
(Voice-over): Once they've acclimated, Matt slides open the door.
(On camera): Moment of truth.
(Voice-over): And turns them into wild rhinos.
(On camera): Here she comes.
So if you're a gambling man, you're making a $200,000 bet here. What are the chances that all four of these rhinos will live long lives?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chances are actually in our favor.
WEIR: They are?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because of where we are.
WEIR: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is why Botswana has been chosen. We have this structure that I talk so much about. Political rule right at the top.
WEIR: Yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And Bill Weir, man of the hour, joins me now for more on this.
Just incredible to see that, such beautiful animals, and what did it take to get to that point where the rhinos were released out into the wild?
WEIR: So this is an interesting little comparison. So Botswana is one of the rare countries in Africa that has banned hunting entirely on public land. Those are white rhinos, they flew in from a game farm in South Africa and just set them free. You know, release them, gave their them their first taste of freedom right there as you saw.
BROWN: Wow.
WEIR: And because it's a hunting-protected place, the animal rights or animal welfare folks hope this is a model for the rest of Africa. That it will get rid of hunting. And then these populations of rhino and lion and elephant will bounce back.
The hunters, though, have a real problem with this. And they even have some science behind them. They say that unless we incentivize these creatures as targets for big-game hunters -- you remember a guy from Texas paid $350,000 to shoot one of the last black rhinos in the wild, that without that incentive for Africans to keep their animals alive. They will go extinct anyway. The poachers will get them.
The real problem with rhino is there's this perverse belief in Asia that the horn is some kind of medicine or it's a status symbol. You grind it into a drink in a nightclub to give to your boss during the holidays. So it's created this incredible black market and these things are being slaughtered. The black rhino will be extinct in 10 years if something doesn't happen.
BROWN: Wow.
WEIR: So you've got animal lovers on one side, poachers on the other, hunters in the middle. It's a fascinating look at, you know, which will go first in this social media firestorm age. Big game or the big game hunters.
BROWN: Right. And it seems like every country has their own view. Namibia where you visited as well.
WEIR: Yes.
BROWN: Vows to protect these endangered species, yet they allow hunting them as well, right?
WEIR: Right. So they auction off a hunt. They'll pick an old bull, low sperm count, still dangerous to other males, and they'll auction off the right to shoot that one old angry bull. $350,000 they say then goes into rhino preservation. And anti-poaching patrols, dehorning operations, those sorts of things.
It's hugely controversial. To the idea that in order to save a species you should be allowed to shoot it.
[18:55:03] You know, it's very -- counterintuitive.
BROWN: Counterintuitive, right. WEIR: Especially if you're an animal lover as I am. So to go there
and actually talk to locals, understand the science behind it. What -- how long do we have before we run out of the big five.
BROWN: Well, yes. I was going to say as an animal lover, I'm an animal lover as well.
WEIR: Yes.
BROWN: I mean, how much optimism is there that these black rhinos can actually be saved?
WEIR: Well, it's the biggest question. And whether it's tigers in India or rhinos in Africa, this is a human problem.
BROWN: Right.
WEIR: You know? A lot of countries in Africa have much bigger problems than saving a rhino. They have human development. They need hospitals and schools, they've got diseases to worry about. So we're at this sort of tipping point which is kind of the point of the show.
BROWN: Right.
WEIR: Let's celebrate the beauty of the special parts of this planet while we have them. And then raise the big questions. How are we going to protect these? And our way of life. As another couple billion people join the party in the next, you know, three to five years.
BROWN: Right. A lot to learn from watching your show. Looking forward to it.
WEIR: Thank you, Pamela.
BROWN: Thanks so much, Bill Weir.
And don't miss "THE WONDER LIST" tonight at 10:00 p.m.
Well, we have said it several times and it's absolutely true. In this race for the presidential nomination, every delegate counts. But are some campaigns crossing the line as they try to woo supporters? We're going to look at what they can and can't do next hour in the CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:00:07] BROWN: And you're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Pamela Brown in for Poppy Harlow on this Sunday. Thank you so much for being here with us.
