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Trump Meets with Diversity Coalition; Trump Struggling with Delegates. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired April 18, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much for watching. I'll be back 5:00 p.m. Eastern in "The Situation Room."

The news continues right now on CNN.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, there. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN on this Monday. Thank you so much for being with me.

You know this. In less than 24 hours, we will be in the throes of an event that the political universe hasn't seen in 40 years. What am I talking about? A New York Republican primary that actually mattered and that will make a difference in who the party's ultimate presidential nominee is. Ninety-five delegates are at stake and frontrunner Donald Trump needs every single one of them in his hot pursuit to that magic number of 1,237. That is the number of delegates required to clinch the party's nomination before the convention in Cleveland in July.

But as Donald Trump fights to sweep New York, he is also struggling to earn the allegiance of delegates in states he has already won. After a series of votes by party insiders in Georgia, it appears most of the delegates picked to go to the convention actually support Ted Cruz. Now, yes, while they are bound to Mr. Trump in that first round of votes at the convention, their personal loyalty could spell big trouble for the frontrunner if the nomination goes to a round two, a second ballot. More on that in a moment.

But, first, let's go to my colleague Sara Murray. She's at Trump Towers, where the billionaire just met with his National Diversity Coalition. Talk to me about what happened there behind closed doors.

SARA MURRAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, I think that there was sort of this belief that Donald Trump appeals to angry white voters and then this diversity coalition is trying to prove that Trump's appeal is going beyond that. So they had, you know, a photo op and then they met privately and their goal really going into this meeting was to first try and inform Donald Trump of some of the issues that are propping up in these various communities, whether it's the African-American community, whether it's the Muslim community, but also to see how they can help the campaign in some of these states and build up more of a grassroots operation, the kind of thing that Ted Cruz has been able to do. Like you said, it's helped him in those delegate fights.

But, of course, we can never expect to hear from Donald Trump and not hear him brag about the polls. He sounding very confident going into the New York primary tomorrow. Take a listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't want to believe the polls. If the polls are what they are, they were beyond anything that anybody's seen, really. But, you know, we love the city. You look at the other folks that are running. They couldn't care less about New York.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: that's right.

TRUMP: We do care about New York.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

TRUMP: We care about New York a lot. We care about New York values.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MURRAY: Now, Brooke, like you were mentioning, Donald Trump and his campaign are not as good at the behind the scenes delegate wrangling as Ted Cruz has turned out to be. That is what makes a place like New York all the more important. If they can win, if they can sweep this state, that is 95 delegates and the Trump campaign wants to walk away with every single one.

BALDWIN: Yes, they do. Sara Murray, thank you very much.

As we mentioned a second ago, the state of Georgia is one of those state where Trump is struggling to keep his delegates loyal after winning last month's primary. Most of the 42 delegates just elected by Georgia Republicans say they would support Ted Cruz if there is, in fact, a contested Republican convention.

Take a look at this. Got a little heated at one Georgia convention site. The Trump supporters bolted with the American flag after three Cruz loyalists were elected. It is also where our next Tea Party organizer and pro-Trump activist, Debbie Dooley, was defeated in her bid to become one of those delegates and Debbie joins me now.

Debbie, nice to have you on.

DEBBIE DOOLEY, TRUMP SUPPORTER, DEFEATED IN GEORGIA DELEGATE BID: It is very nice to be on your show today. How are you doing?

BALDWIN: I am wonderful. But it's more about you than me today.

DOOLEY: Yes.

BALDWIN: Let me just - let me just ask you. You know, prior to this weekend and even really for this past year, what have you seen or heard that the Cruz camp has done to try to court those delegates?

DOOLEY: Well, they're trying to reach out and aggressively game the system that is antiquated that Georgia uses - the Georgia Republican Party uses to elect their delegates. Senator Cruz is actively seeking to overturn the results of the election that took place on March the 1st where Mr. Trump took 40 percent of the vote. He earned 42 delegates. Ted Cruz earned 18 and Rubio earned 16. And they are gaming the system. Mr. Trump -

BALDWIN: How do you - can you be specific with me? When you say gaming the system and being aggressive, what do you mean exactly?

DOOLEY: Well - well, the delegate process began in February for the mass precinct meetings, and many of the Cruz supporters are insiders within the Republican Party. They've been to the system for years. And so they know the rules, they know how to show up and they have an advantage. The process began in February. The Trump campaign was late to the ballgame and I assumed it because they never in their wildest dreams believed that a candidate like Mr. Cruz, that claims to be a constitutional conservative, is actively and effectively trying to diminish one of the rights given in the Constitution, which is a right to vote.

[14:05:11] BALDWIN: But hang on a second because if you look at it from a different perspective, one could say, hey, good on, you know, Ted Cruz and his organizers for being on it from the get and what about Mr. Trump? What - I mean was he just not as organized in Georgia as Senator Cruz was?

DOOLEY: He was not as organized in Georgia early as Senator Cruz is, but we have always respected the voters. The voters spoke very loudly on March the 1st. We have always respected and had faith in the voters. And they are working to overturn the results and disenfranchise the 502,000 Georgians that went to the polls on March the 1st and voted for Trump.

BALDWIN: I hear you. I hear you, Debbie, but can you blame Ted Cruz for understanding how the system works and, you know, these prize delegates and getting in there early?

DOOLEY: Well, I can blame Ted Cruz for not respecting the will of voters and trying to overturn and diminish the vote that took place on March the 1st. He is using strong-arm tactics. They were - Cruz supporters were extremely, extremely rude to Trump supporters at district conventions across Georgia. He is not - he is using - working with insiders within the Republican Party in Georgia and gaming the delegate process instead of respecting voters.

BALDWIN: Well, let's look ahead to June, because I know that's when Georgia elects the rest of the delegates that, of course, would go on to the convention in July in Cleveland. What do you think the Donald Trump campaign could do, should do? Debbie, you're there on the ground.

DOOLEY: Right.

BALDWIN: You see what works and what doesn't. What would your advice to Mr. Trump be?

DOOLEY: My advice to be - would be to Mr. Trump to let's get in this, actively work the delegates. Let's get our people to show up at the convention and let's put pressure on to ask Georgia Republicans to respect and not turn their back on the 502,000 Georgians that voted for Mr. Trump on March the 1st. And I would ask voters to contract the elected officials, to contact the Republican Party and ask them to take a stand and stand up for voters, not the party elite.

BALDWIN: Hmm. Debbie Dooley, my home state of Georgia, thank you so much. We will stay -

DOOLEY: It's a pleasure. Thank you.

BALDWIN: We'll stay in close contact and see what happens in June. Thank you so much.

DOOLEY: Thank you.

BALDWIN: You know what happened - what happened in Georgia is likely to embolden Trump as he rails against the delegates system. He's called it corrupt. He's called it rigged, especially after Ted Cruz won 14 more delegates over the weekend in Wyoming just the same way he did in Colorado. Not by popular vote, but in a state party convention.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's a corrupt and crooked system where you're allowed to take delegates - look, nobody has better toys than I do. I can put them in the best planes an bring them to the best resorts anywhere in the world, Doral (ph), Mar-a-Lago. I can put them in the best places in the world, California. I have something that blows everything away. But it's a corrupt system. You're basically buying these people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Molly Ball, let me bring you in, staff writer for "The Atlantic." I'm curious, I'm sure you just listened to my conversation with Debbie, Debbie Dooley, you know, wants those Trump, you know, delegates in Trump's pocket come July. She's frustrated in Georgia that hasn't happened. What do you think? What - what are the dynamics on the ground there in Georgia?

MOLLY BALL, POLITICAL WRITER, "THE ATLANTIC": Well, look, I think the kind of pressure that Debbie was talking about and that Trump is talking about bringing the bear on a lot of these party organizations has a very good chance of being effective because what is happening here is, a lot of people, as Trump loves to point out, have - are being brought into this process that is not a democratic process and now they are finding out, to their chagrin, that the way it works, a lot of these elections that people are participating in, in droves, are nothing more than a straw poll. They don't determine who goes to the convention. They don't determine who the delegates are and who those delegates vote for. And so, you know, the parties, in a way, brought it on themselves because when they introduced primaries and opened them up in the public in an effort to seem democratic in the '60s and '70s, they created an expectation that those votes actually matter. But the fact is, that's not what matters. What matters is these technical contests. It's not Ted Cruz's fault that he understands the process and is milking it for all its worth, but Trump does have a point that the process is not exactly democratic.

BALDWIN: It's just so interesting that we're even having this conversation because in years past there was essentially the presumed or the nominee and now we're talking second ballots and the delegates become unbound. It just creates an entirely different scenario.

Donald Trump does wants this, Molly. He told "The Washington Post" he wants to have at least some control over the Republican National Convention's program. This is part of the quote from Mr. Trump. "It's very important to put some showbiz into a convention otherwise people are going to fall asleep. We don't have the people who know how to put showbiz into a convention."

[14:10:14] Now, my question to you is, I guess he's thinking as the - as the frontrunner here that he has a right to, you know, dictate that it would be fun and watchable and interesting from an I guess a TV producer perspective. Does he have the right to do that?

BALL: Well, no. If he were the presumptive nominee, he would. And you talk about this being different than past years. You're absolutely right. Normally someone would have wrapped up the nomination by now, and that person would be working with the RNC because they would be the presumptive nominee. The RNC is in a very difficult position of having to essentially orchestrate this convention by themselves without a presumptive nominee and that could continue all the way up to the convention. And then they're having all this pressure put on them from the candidates that are still in contention and from everyone else who's interested in how this turns out. So they're really between a rock and a hard place. But it's very tough for Trump to assert that he - he certainly doesn't have any right according to the rules if he's not the Republican - the presumptive nominee, to dictate how the convention goes. And I don't know what he's talking about it being boring four years ago. Remember Clint Eastwood? That was pretty entertaining.

BALDWIN: And the chair. I was there. I was there. I mean, I'm not going to lie, I'd be kind of curious to see how Mr. Trump defines showbiz at the - in Cleveland.

Let me move on, though, because we also know that Trump told, you know, "The Post" that if, in fact, he wins the 1,237 delegates to clinch, that he's not quite sure if he wants to keep Reince Priebus, the chair of the RNC, you know, at the helm. How do you take that? Is that a - is that a threat? Who's basically been saying that Mr. Trump's - talking about the rigged system - is hyperbole. What are you reading into that?

BALL: Yes, it's absolutely a threat. I mean poor Reince Priebus. Trump has been essentially threatening him and torturing him for nine months now, right? From the beginning of this process he's been saying -

BALDWIN: It's a tough job.

BALL: Yes, nice - nice party you've got there. A shame if anything were to happen to it, right? From the very beginning of this process he's been saying, if I'm not treated fairly, I'm going to go outside. I'm going to make trouble. This is just the same in that - that same long pattern that he's had, making sure things go his way by pointing out what kind of trouble he could make if they don't.

Now, he and Reince Priebus have had a testy relationship, but they've always communicated. They've continued to talk. And so, you know, I think he is laying down a marker here for if the party chairman were to actually find himself in opposition to Trump, pointing out that he might have the right to do something about that.

BALDWIN: Molly Ball, from "The Atlantic," come back. Thank you so much.

BALL: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Just a reminder to all of you, so much at stake on both sides, the Democrats and Republicans, tomorrow. The big crucial New York primary contest takes place. Tune in to CNN, of course, for complete coverage of that.

Coming up next, George Clooney admits the money he's been raising for Hillary Clinton is, his word, "obscene." Hear why he agrees with Bernie Sanders just 24 hours out from the New York primary.

And a group of bikers who support Donald Trump say they are going to the Republican convention to maintain order. But what happens if their guy doesn't get the nomination? We'll talk to one of those bikers live.

And breaking news out of Jerusalem today. A bus exploding with passengers on board. Authorities are now saying it was a bomb. We will take you there live. Keep it here. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:17:33] BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Hillary Clinton feeling pretty good about her lead in New York. She headed to the West Coast this weekend to raise a little bit of money, a lot of money, and raise some eyebrows as well, including from her host, George Clooney. The Oscar winning actor admitting the amount of money raised in U.S. politics in general, and even at his own fundraiser, was, his word, "obscene."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE CLOONEY, ACTOR AND HILLARY CLINTON SUPPORTER: I think it's an obscene amount of money. I think that - you know, we had some protesters last night when we - when we pulled up in San Francisco. And they're right to protest. They're absolutely right. It is an obscene amount of money. The Sanders campaign, when they talk about, is absolutely right. It's ridiculous that we should have this kind of money in politics. I agree.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: And for those of you counting at home, all the pennies, nickels and dimes, the price tag of a single ticket at Mr. Clooney's fundraiser, $33,000. While no less than $353,000 will get you a seat next to the former sexiest man alive and his wife, human rights lawyer Amal Clooney.

Here is a look at the protests that he was just alluding to. Some 100 Bernie Sanders supporters showering Hillary Clinton's motorcade in 1,000 $1 dollar bills.

Joining me now, Alan Dershowitz, professor emeritus, Harvard Law School. And also with us today, Jumaane Williams, New York City council member and Bernie Sanders supporter.

Gentlemen, great to see both of you.

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, PROFESSOR EMERITUS, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL: Nice to see you. Good.

JUMAANE WILLIAMS (D), NEW YOUR CITY COUNCIL: Thank you for having me.

BALDWIN: First to you. We wanted to talk to you, prosecutor, because of what you wrote, this op-ed, saying the Democratic Party should be aware of Bernie Sanders supporters, and specifically groups like Black Live Matter, Occupy Wall Street and MoveOn. You write, quote, "they're at war with certain core liberal values, particularly as regards to free speech." Explain.

DERSHOWITZ: Well, first of all, I love the protest throwing dollar bills. That's a legitimate form of protest.

BALDWIN: You like that?

DERSHOWITZ: Of course. Anything that's peaceful. What I don't like are those elements within these organizations, not the organizations themselves, I support Black Lives Matter.

BALDWIN: Yes.

DERSHOWITZ: But there are some within each of these hard left organizations that want to stop other people from speaking. They interrupt Donald Trump. I don't necessarily like what Donald Trump has to say, but he has a right to say it.

BALDWIN: Yes.

DERSHOWITZ: They interrupt Bill Clinton. They've interrupted speakers on university campuses. And I just want Bernie Sanders to disassociate himself with those elements within his supporters who want to shut other people down.

BALDWIN: Do you think Bernie Sanders should do that, take the professor's advice?

WILLIAMS: Oh, no, I think the - the party should be aware. I don't know about beware but they should be aware because this is the voice that people need to hear right now. A there's a reason that Sanders caught on fire because this voice was missing. Generally people begin to oppose protests at the time but then revel in the benefit of the protest after. And so most of the changes that we've seen, they haven't come quietly. They have had to have had interruptions and disruptions for people's voice to be heard.

[14:20:23] DERSHOWITZ: Can we agree that protests are fine but stopping other people from expressing different views is not consistent with Democratic Party values.

BALDWIN: Even if you don't agree with that person?

DERSHOWITZ: Even if you don't agree? Even if you think they're terrible views, don't they have a right to express their - do you think disruption is part of democracy?

WILLIAMS: Yes, so, they have a right to express them. Depending on what it is, I think you have a right to try to attempt to prevent them from expressing a hateful view. I think both of those things go head and hand. So saying you have the freedom to do one and not the other, I'm not sure.

DERSHOWITZ: If saying -

BALDWIN: So you're disagreeing with one another.

DERSHOWITZ: We disagree. I don't think you have a right to stop them, even if they say hateful things. You have a right to answer them.

WILLIAMS: Well, so this is the basis of what civil disobedience is. It is to disrupt. In exchange for that, you may get arrested. And so that is a price that you may have to pay to disrupt and interrupt. And I think that is the cost of what our history has shown us works in this country to make change.

DERSHOWITZ: That's an interesting point. I think civil disobedience has a role, for example, in sitting in on lunch counters, but civil disobedience has no role in trying to shut other people down and trying to stop other people from expressing their (INAUDIBLE).

WILLIAMS: Well, when you have someone like - when you have someone like Trump or Cruz on the Republican side, who all they're doing is spewing hate and people who have been suffering for - for --

BALDWIN: That's not fair. That's not all they're doing.

WILLIAMS: That's what I think they've been doing.

BALDWIN: Or some would say at all.

DERSHOWITZ: Well, then answer them. Answer them.

WILLIAMS: Sure.

DERSHOWITZ: Come on TV and answer them. Don't shut them down.

WILLIAMS: So what we want to do is go in there and make sure that your voice is heard as loudly as possible. So -

DERSHOWITZ: But you can't have your voice heard at their event. You have your own event. But at their event, you should be allowed to boo or throw dollars or - but not prevent them from speaking.

WILLIAMS: Sure.

DERSHOWITZ: I just want the Democratic Party to support everybody's right to speak and I want to hear Bernie Sanders say, I don't support people who disrupt and stop others from speaking.

WILLIAMS: I do support everyone's right to speak. I actually prefer engaging with people that I disagree with. But I do support people's right to disrupt and interpret (ph) when we want to make progress in this country.

DERSHOWITZ: Well, how about people who interrupt you and disrupt you and try to stop you from expressing your views?

WILLIAMS: Sure. I take the time to - to either talk about - I usually engage with them.

DERSHOWITZ: But what if they won't let you talk?

WILLIAMS: I usually engage with them. And, however, if they have to be removed, that does happen. That is a price that you pay to get that part of the protest in. And I understand both sides of that.

DERSHOWITZ: OK. Look, I understand, but I just think the Democratic Party and Bernie Sanders ought to come out clearly in favor of everybody's right to speak and everybody else's right to respond.

WILLIAMS: And protest. And so I think I think -

DERSHOWITZ: Protests are fine.

WILLIAMS: We would be better at embracing this fire that has caught on in the Democratic Party because my hope and my belief is that this is not going to go away. There's a reason why he caught a fire - caught fire at this moment in time in this junction in history.

DERSHOWITZ: Well, we'll see if the fire spreads or we'll see if tomorrow a fire extinguisher in the form of New York voters come out and support Hillary Clinton, which is what I'd like to see.

WILLIAMS: Well, I - I don't know if that would be a fire extinguisher. I understand where she is at this point in time. But I do understand that they definitely would have liked to had a wider lead than they are now. And the fact that they don't have it is because of that fire.

DERSHOWITZ: Who would -

BALDWIN: Let me jump in - let me jump in and you're making my job easy because this is a fascinating conversation. I'm just sort of sitting - sitting back here.

WILLIAMS: (INAUDIBLE).

BALDWIN: You know, but these folks, many of them are truly feeling the Bern. And Hillary Clinton, if she ultimately clinches that nomination, she needs them. And, I mean, it was interesting listening - it was sitting in on "New Day" today and Chris Cuomo was talking to, you know, Bernie Sanders and asking, have you ever thought about that moment, how would you try to tell the folks who so forcefully, you know, support you.

DERSHOWITZ: Yes.

BALDWIN: And I don't really know if I heard an interesting.

DERSHOWITZ: The interesting thing is that Bernie Sanders will be much more influential if he loses the nomination than if he wins it. If he wins the nomination, he's going to end up winning two states, like Michael Dukakis, and his whole policy will be thrown in the garbage pail. If he loses the nomination but it's close, he will have influence within the Democratic Party.

BALDWIN: He will have tremendous influence and he was saying that Hillary Clinton will have to speak to those people. He was sort of saying at least I feel like she's moved further left because of my presence in this race. Obviously he wants to win.

WILLIAMS: That's 100 percent accurate. That is - that is a factual thing.

BALDWIN: Made her a better candidate.

WILLIAMS: There are conversations going on now that would not have happened if Bernie Sanders wasn't in the race. I think the thing that we may both agree on is whomever wins, we have to come behind fully and 100 percent. They're better than any of the candidates that are on the Republican side (INAUDIBLE).

DERSHOWITZ: I agree. But I do think if Bernie Sanders wins and then loses the election the way McGovern and Dukakis lost the election, it will actually weakens the left part of the Democratic Party for years to come.

BALDWIN: that will be something to watch. We're not there yet. Jumaane and Alan Dershowitz, thank you so much.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

DERSHOWITZ: Thank you. It was a good conversation.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

DERSHOWITZ: Great. Thank you.

BALDWIN: Thank you so, so much.

Coming up, they say they are not looking for a fight, but they wouldn't back down from one either. We'll talk with the founder of Bikers for Trump. Yes, it's a group and they have plans to roll into Cleveland ahead of the Republican National Convention. What they say they will do when they get there.

And next, was it an act of terror? Breaking news out of Jerusalem involving this explosion on a bus. More than 20 people were injured. We have a live report, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:29:33] BALDWIN: A rare Republican contested convention this summer may block Donald Trump from becoming ultimately the Republican nominee despite his delegate lead over Ted Cruz and John Kasich, but one group is doing all it can to stop that from happening. They call themselves Bikers for Trump. Perhaps to some they look intimidating, but all they say they want to do is make America great again through peaceful protest. These bikers have been crisscrossing the United States serving as unofficial security outside of the different Trump rallies. But they say their new priority is this, swarm the Republican National Convention in Cleveland to stop party leaders from denying Trump the nomination. Joining me now, Chris Cox, founder of