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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA
Trump, Clinton Win in New York; Cruz Gains Zero Delegates in N.Y.; Campaign: Sanders Will Fight On. Aired 11-11:30a ET
Aired April 20, 2016 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:10] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everybody. I'm Kate Bolduan.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm John Berman.
After their big wins in the Big Apple, Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump now saying how about them apples. On the Republican side, Trump hit his high-water mark in his campaign today. He got 60 percent of the vote. John Kasich finishes second with 25 percent, and Ted Cruz a distant third at 14 percent.
BOLDUAN: For the Democrats Hillary Clinton brought the Bernie Sanders winning streak to a screeching halt, picking up 58 percent of vote. What that means in delegate-land is Clinton storms out of New York with 139 additional delegates to Bernie Sanders picking up 108.
BERMAN: It was way more one sided for the Republicans. Donald Trump won at least 89 delegates here. John Kasich is in second with at least three. And Ted Cruz netted a grand total of zero. Zero delegates despite campaigning here. If look a head, Donald Trump edging closer to 1237 votes needed to secure the nomination before the convention. If he can maintain some discipline, he could get close.
BOLDUAN: Look at the Democratic side on that. Hillary Clinton is now fewer than 500 delegates away. Sanders trailing her in both pledged delegates and those ever important super delegates. The proportional delegate allocation system on the Dem side will make it difficult for Sanders to cut into that lead.
BERMAN: And now it is on to super spring Tuesday or spring Super Tuesday, whichever way you like, on April 26th, either way, when voters in Connecticut and Delaware and Pennsylvania and Rhode Island head to the polls.
Moments ago, Ted Cruz finished in Hershey, Pennsylvania, coming off his third out of three finish in the state of New York and zero delegate gains here.
BOLDUAN: Let's talk about the path forward and what happened last night. Let's bring in Ron Nehring, the national spokesman for Ted Cruz campaign.
Ron, thanks for coming in.
RON NEHRING, NATIONAL SPOKESMAN, TED CRUZ PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: You bet.
BOLDUAN: Ron, Kellyanne Conway works with the super PACs and not with the campaign. She was onset and she set a low bar saying you would pick up more than zero delegates. You picked up zero delegates. What happened last night?
NEHRING: We won the last five states leading up to New York and Donald Trump won New York, and we can say winning is better. But this wasn't any big surprise, Hillary Clinton won on the Democratic side. She represented the state in the U.S. Senate. Donald Trump won his own state. And even the insufferable John Kasich was able to win his own state of Ohio, not winning anything before or after. Not really a big surprise. We didn't invest a lot of resources there. We did go there into New York because we campaigned in every state. But ultimately this is no big surprise. And we're on to Pennsylvania where we're campaigning today. We're well organized in the states coming up on April 26th and all throughout the month of May and then ready to wrap up the campaign in California where the Donald Trump campaign is a total basket case.
BERMAN: Ron, you just said the insufferable John Kasich. He just beat you by a lot in the state of New York, won delegates in the state of New York, and leading in the polls in the states that follow New York. We have a new poll out of Connecticut which has John Kasich running second to Donald Trump right there. What do you mean by insufferable.
NEHRING: Oh, come on. I mean, John Kasich in the last month has won a grand total of three delegates. That's almost as many as you've won in the last month. John Kasich is not going to be the Republican nominee for president. Everybody knows that. His continued presence in the race only helps Donald Trump.
BERMAN: But why does that make him insufferable?
NEHRING: -- for vice president.
BERMAN: Why insufferable?
NEHRING: Because he's -- John Kasich is a spoiler. Everybody knows this. This is nothing particularly new. He has no strategy for winning anywhere. And in fact he keeps on saying every time he loses a state, which is all of the time, he keeps saying, the map going forward looks better for us. He said he would do really well in New York. He won three delegates. You need 1237 in order to win the nomination. He's been eliminated from this contest effectively. He's not going to become the nominee no matter what. Meanwhile, in the Donald Trump campaign, in this ongoing mess of a campaign organization they're trying to sort out right in the middle of the contest, that's not exactly the time when you want campaign staff showing up trying to figure out how to make their e-mail work or where their desk is or so on. We're well organized going forward. This is not a surprise what happened in New York. We're at the top of the sixth inning.
BOLDUAN: Ron, don't you need John Kasich to keep delegates from Donald Trump? Take New York as an example.
NEHRING: No. As a matter of fact, we know we're going into a contested convention and no candidate will win a majority of delegates going forward. Certainly, Donald Trump is not going to. The reason Donald Trump yells at the system so much, he wants the majority of the delegates when he's not winning the support of the majority of the party. He doesn't. The only state so far where he's able to crest 50 percent, his own state of New York, and I don't think he'll do that again in any state coming up.
[11:05:24] BERMAN: He's at 48 percent in Connecticut. Let's talk about where you are or Ted Cruz is right now. Let's throw up the map of the five states that vote next week, Connecticut, Delaware, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island. Which state that's up there on the board is Ted Cruz going to win?
NEHRING: You'll have to forgive me for not raising the curtain in terms of projections like that. Donald Trump and some people in the media would like, as Ted Cruz has said, for people to pretend that Pennsylvania is a suburb of Manhattan, which it isn't. We were 20 points down in the state of Wisconsin two weeks before we won it by 13 points. This contest going forward is a contest for delegates, and it's a contest for delegates because that's where ultimately the grassroots base of the Republican Party is going to express itself. That base is consolidating not behind Donald Trump but behind Ted Cruz. Make no mistake, it's going to be a competitive contest for sure, but going forward, no candidate will get to the absolute majority of the delegates needed to win on the first ballot. We're going to a contested convention. That's what's going to happen here.
BOLDUAN: The fight is on.
Ron Nehring, thank you so much, Ron. We have a lot to discuss before this next contest coming up.
NEHRING: Thank you.
BERMAN: Not sure I was expecting that quite like that.
Let's bring in our chief political analyst, Dana Bash; CNN political commentators, Errol Louis; Ana Navarro, Kayleigh McEnany and Amanda Carpenter. Errol is also a political anchor for Time/Warner Cable News. Ana is a Republican strategist who supported Jeb Bush. Kayleigh is a conservative columnist and a Donald Trump supporter --
BOLDUAN: Dana Bash only supported me.
BERMAN: Dana Bash supported all of us.
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm just reporter like trying to pick my job off the table here. (CROSSTALK)
BERMAN: Amanda, a conservative writer and a former communications director for Senator Ted Cruz.
We'll get to what Ron said in a moment, the insufferable John Kasich. I want to get back to Donald Trump last night who had a big win, Dana Bash, 60 percent, almost all of the delegates. A different Donald Trump when he took the stage to declare victory. Interesting.
BASH: Very interesting. Not only did he give a very brief speech, a low-key speech, even his jab at the party, which he's been given were much more subdued about the rigged system. And you know, he didn't -- it wasn't that long ago that he was having big press conferences with people at his country club and showing off Trump steaks or things we thought were Trump steaks. It was all about marketing the Trump name. Now it really seems to be about being a genuine candidate who follows, not total presidential rules, but more of the presidential rules.
The one quick thing I will say that we have to remember about last night, which is why our friend from the Cruz campaign was a little bit irritated this morning, shall we say, is because even people inside the Cruz campaign realize there's absolutely no mathematical way for him to be the nominee without a contested convention. The only person who has that chance, mathematically, is Donald Trump.
BOLDUAN: It's a big message. Let's turn to Amanda on this. Amanda, if the big message was stop calling him -- get on messaged discipline. What was the message last night to Ted Cruz? What is this insufferable John Kasich? Do you agree?
AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think the big lesson for Ted Cruz going into these mid-Atlantic primaries is he has to find a way to really loosen up. Last night, he was kind of cookie cutter to me. Yes, he did have kind of a new style. He was talking, making appeal to maybe Reagan Democrats and blue collar workers. But the stagecraft, you're standing there with the two flags. Donald Trump has shaken up the race so much. Not only Ted Cruz but all Republican candidate have so much more latitude than they think they do, and they really have to think more out of the box when talking to voters, and not just doing it in this cookie cutter way. The thing that bothered me a lot last night, Ted Cruz would say, you need an optimistic message and he would say I'm optimistic. Last night, he had the message that he's an outsider. He said I'm an outsider. You have to tell the story. I think he would do much better reminding people of why he was such a fighter inside the Senate. Relive those fights, explain to them why they gained his trust in the first place, and that, in itself, provides a very clear contrast to Donald Trump.
[11:10:00] BERMAN: Ana Navarro, one of the things we heard Ron say and Cruz campaign say, the Trump team is disorganized and can't pick up delegates in the convention and basket case, can't run a lemonade stand, is what Ted Cruz said yesterday. My question, which way would you rather win delegates, the way Donald Trump did in New York last night, and he may do next week in the five mid-Atlantic states, or with the incredibly impressive organization that Ted Cruz has? NAVARRO: To tell you the truth, any which way.
NAVARRO: What matters here is the end result. And what I think is the lesson from last night, you know, Ted Cruz doesn't speak Spanish very well. He does speak some, but he knows his favorite Cuban dish. It means Cuban ground beef. Donald Trump turned him into picarillo last night in New York. Ted Cruz needs to forget loosening up. The brand of Ted Cruz is already pretty solidified out there. He's sanctimonious, he is a holy roller, he is an obstructionist. We all know that. Some people like it and some people don't. A lot of people who don't like it live in the northeast and will be voting next Tuesday. Forget loosening up. He has to learn how to play well with others. You all have kids, and you get that report card. He gets an "F" on that category. He has got to figure out how to reach out to John Kasich, who has been trying to reach out for him for weeks. They have to look at that map and say, OK, you know what, Rafael, Ted Cruz, you'll do better here and John Kasich, insufferable or not, you'll do better there. You'll take it there, brother, and I'll take it here, and they've got to figure out how to coordinate. They have one joint goal, which is also my goal, to stop Donald Trump from getting 1237 before he gets to the convention. If he does reach 1237, they are both done. Just put a big fork in both of them.
BOLDUAN: Insufferable, Errol Louis, do you think there's any chance those two will coordinate?
ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Of course not. Unfortunately, it doesn't work quite that well. Look, if they were going to do it, they certainly would have done it by now, and there are any number of instances, including here in New York, within the fact we have delegates done by congressional districts, divided up the congressional districts if they wanted to. The fact is Cruz is well organized and they have great analytics to target a lot of stuff. Kasich has far less money, not able to do that. It wouldn't be a conversation between equals and they are both hoping for a convention in which no one gets the nomination on first ballot. and then there's a big free for all. They are still potentially rivals and not going to share trade secrets. And in the end, it may end up working to both of their detriment, but I can't see them getting together to form a united front. It would have happened by now.
BASH: On that point, John Kasich has tried his team has tried very hard and literally the Cruz campaign, they just and its leaders won't call them back because they don't want --
BERMAN: Or they call them names.
BERMAN: Or they call them names, like the insufferable John Kasich. NAVARRO: For Lindsey Graham, for folks like Raul and some these folks
to get on the phone with somebody like a Charlie Black, tell Ted Cruz to drink happy juice and to be able to figure out how to work with others.
BERMAN: Go ahead, Amanda.
CARPENTER: What does John Kasich have to bring to the table? He got three delegates in New York. That's more than Ted Cruz but Ted Cruz is the one that has all of the operation. Why would you let John Kasich in on that? He is your rival. Ted Cruz thinks he can beat him out right. So I think John Kasich has a lot to gain. Ted Cruz has nothing to gain from that kind of relationship.
BERMAN: Kayleigh McEnany, you've been sitting here playing nicely while people have been talking about Cuban beef and other things. This was --
NAVARRO: It's picarillo.
BERMAN: Not even close. There's no chance of me saying that.
BERMAN: Kayleigh, it was a big night for Donald Trump. Is this an acknowledgement now of the fact that he could win New York, the fact that he showed more discipline on the stage last night, is that what he now needs to do, and does he have to leave behind everything else that got him to this point?
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I think we need to see more of the Donald Trump we have seen last night and we have seen that. The fact is he is the presumptive nominee. He's comfortable in his skin now and confident. He doesn't need to attack anymore. He just needs to do exactly what he did last night. And it's important to emphasize the magnitude of his victory. He won by 35 percent. That's more than any poll was predicting he would win by. You look at Ted Cruz, quickly becoming Mr. third place. He lost to Ben Carson in Westchester County, and came in fourth. Ted Cruz was trounced in the southeast where he was supposed to do well, and trounced in the northeast. He's winning a narrow sliver of states. He's Mr. third place now. Donald Trump is the presumptive nominee. It's time for the Never Trump movement to pack up and go home. They've been unsuccessful even thought they spent $70 million, three times the amount of Donald Trump's entire campaign has spent, trying to topple this candidate. It's not working. It's a narrow sliver of the establishment, and time for the establishment to realize their days are behind them.
[11:15:10] BERMAN: I think it takes more than one state, even in Trump world, to get a nickname like Mr. third place.
BOLDUAN: Mr. third place, with the best ground game operation we've seen for delegates.
NAVARRO: It takes more than one but I'm not sure it takes more than six.
BOLDUAN: Guys, thank you very, very much.
John, what was the name?
BERMAN: I'm not going to say it. Insufferable, that's what I'm going with.
NAVARRO: It's very good, by the way. It's called picarillo, and it's got olives and raisins, a sweet and savory combo. I'll send you some.
BERMAN: All right.
BOLDUAN: 11:00 a.m. on the east, 8:00 a.m. on the West. Are you hungry?
BERMAN: Ana has food for you.
BOLDUAN: Not backing down. Let's talk about the Democrats now. Bernie Sanders is taking a day off the trail to recharge but his campaign says he will fight on. What does that fight look like now? We'll ask the Sanders campaign next.
BERMAN: The best kept secret in politics, how the whacky delegate allocation system in Pennsylvania could be the single most important factor in the Republican race for the White House.
[11:19:58] BOLDUAN: Bernie Sanders came into New York saying he would win the state and now he's leaving with a few bumps and bruises to show for it. Likely one of reasons he's taken the day off to recharge for the fight ahead.
BERMAN: No easy hike for Bernie Sanders. From this moment forward, he needs to win 83 percent of the pledged delegates at stake to take the Democratic nomination. Hillary Clinton would need 32 percent.
Joining us right now, one of the top strategists in the Bernie Sanders campaign. Tad Devine is with us.
Tad, thanks for being with us.
You fought hard in New York. You were here nearly for the two full weeks and you spent $2 million more on advertising than the Clinton campaign. What happened here?
TAD DEVINE, CHIEF STRATEGIST, BERNIE SANDERS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: I think Hillary Clinton is strong in her home state and the New York system doesn't allow independents to participate. It doesn't even allow them to change their party registration unless they do it many months before. I think we ran into a system that favored her and state that likes her a lot. We'll give Secretary Clinton paying credit for that victory.
BOLDUAN: You give her her due and give her credit for it. You told the A.P. last night, after the contest next week, that the campaign planned to, in your words, according to the A.P, "sit back and assess where we are." What does that mean?
DEVINE: I'll tell you what it means. I was talking whether or not we could have a pledged delegate lead by the end of voting in June. We have to do well next week. We lost a few more delegates yesterday than I thought we would. We're a little farther behind in delegates than we hoped to be. I think if we do well next week we can get back on course to have a pledged delegate lead by the time the voting ends. That's what I was talking about.
BERMAN: You're acknowledging that that's a slimmer and slimmer possibility at this point?
DEVINE: Yeah, I think it's -- obviously, we lost more than we thought we would yesterday. We thought the race would be closer. We can still do it. There's a lot of events ahead, all the way through California. Bernie Sanders has a very powerful message, that our economy is rigged, that all of the new wealth is going to the top of America, and that rigged economy is held in place by a system of corrupt finance. I think that will resonate. Yes, Hillary Clinton did well in her home state, and we congratulate her for it, but we have a lot of states coming up, including the five next week, where we think Bernie Sanders will do really well.
BOLDUAN: Last night, Bernie Sanders said there's no change strategy moving forward, but when you look forward, do you need to have a change in tone? The Clinton campaign is furious over what they call false character attacks from your campaign leading up to New York. They called it destructive, not productive for Democrats, and not productive for the country. You guys are basically helping Republicans here. Are you going to change the tone?
DEVINE: Listen, first, I couldn't disagree more with their mischaracterization. And I would point to the exit polls from New York to refute their case. One of the questions in the exit poll yesterday, which campaign was running the more unfair campaign. This is in a state where Hillary Clinton won 58 percent of the vote and yet 46 percent of the New York respondents said the Clinton campaign was more unfair, 34 percent said the Sanders campaign. Even in a state she won overwhelmingly, the voters, who had a front row seat for that campaign, said they were more unfair.
I would also point to the exit poll about whether or not this campaign was energizing the party. 66 percent of Democrats in New York said the campaign was energizing the Democratic Party. Very different from the Republicans, who believe the campaign is dividing the party. I heard what they're saying, but what they are saying is being reputed by the voters themselves.
BERMAN: It sounds like you're saying there's going to be no change in tone from your campaign.
DEVINE: Listen, we want to debate on the issues. "The New York Times" has an excellent editorial that points out why it's so important for Bernie Sanders to continue to make his case. He has brought definition to these issues, particularly the issue of whether or not the Democratic Party needs to continue to rely on big money to fund its campaign. I think the "Times" is right. That's a newspaper that endorsed Hillary Clinton. And we'll make the case whether or not it's time to change politics in America. I think Bernie Sanders' case was heard in New York but more voters will respond all across the country, all the way through California and the District of Columbia.
BOLDUAN: Tad, you brought up the exit polls. You have often touted you're closing the gap on the very important African-American vote in the Democratic primary, but when you look at New York, you're not. 75 percent went for Hillary Clinton. 25 percent went for your candidate. Can you win the Democratic nomination without -- with number like that?
DEVINE: No, we can't. That's why we have to do better. Listen, I think African-American voters in New York, who know secretary Clinton, president Clinton very well, that's their home state. His office is in Harlem. They have a strong footprint there. And we congratulate them --
BOLDUAN: But, Tad, it's like the end of April at this point. What more reintroduction do you have time for?
DEVINE: I think we have a lot of time. We've got over 1400 delegates to be picked and huge states like California still in play. We'll be able to demonstrate by the time we get to the end of the process that Bernie Sanders' appeal is across the broad spectrum of the party. And only Bernie Sanders can do something we need to do to win the general election, bring in young people. A lot showed up in New York. Not as many in other states, but a lot did. And also bring Independents to the Democratic process. They couldn't do it because of the law yesterday in New York but we will be able to do that in places like California and elsewhere.
[11:25:20] BERMAN: Tad Devine, thanks so much for being with us. Appreciate it, sir.
DEVINE: Good to be with you.
BOLDUAN: Thanks, Tad.
BERMAN: Hillary Clinton, as you've been hearing, she won New York, and now she's trying to address Bernie Sanders supporters. What is her message to those young people you just heard Tad Devine talking about? Can she unite the party?
BOLDUAN: We have breaking news out of Michigan. The first criminal charges will be coming down in connection with the tainted water crisis that poisoned thousands of people in Flint. Three people charged. Who they are and what they are facing, that's ahead.