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Clinton and Trump Advance; Indiana's Importance; GOP Lawmakers Skip Convention; Sanders Pushes Forward. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired April 20, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:03] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, here we go. You're watching CNN. Beginning here with breaking news.

Three officials in Michigan now facing felony charges in the investigation into the water crisis in Flint, Michigan, the man who supervised the city's water treatment plant, along with two state environmental officials. These are the first now to face criminal charges that have now been handed down in this investigation thus far. Michigan's attorney general says there is more to come. Let me promise you, we are all over this story. We'll take you live to Flint in just a couple of minutes.

But first, forget Broadway. That was so yesterday. New York setting the stage for the November general election, making the road to their presidential nominations a whole lot smoother for Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. These New Yorkers and party frontrunners won their home state primaries by empire state-sized margins. Secretary Clinton beat rival Bernie Sanders by double digits. As for Donald Trump, he won with his largest lead thus far in this race. Today the billionaire tweeted this about the critical delegate count and his closest rival, Ted Cruz, here. Tweeting, "Ted Cruz is mathematically out of winning the race. Now all he can do is be a spoiler. Never a nice thing to do. I will beat Hillary," he promises.

As for Senator Cruz, today he downplayed his third place finish and focused on the races ahead, including Pennsylvania.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There's a reason Donald wants all of the lap dogs in the media to say that the race is over, because the three weeks that proceeded yesterday, there were a total of five states that voted. Utah, Wisconsin, North Dakota, Colorado, Wyoming. In all five, we won a landslide.

That's their telling - that's their telling. Manhattan has spoken and Pennsylvania will quietly file into obedience.

CROWD: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No we won't.

CRUZ: You know what? I've got a lot more faith in the people of Pennsylvania.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's go to Indianapolis. Chris Frates is there live, Trump rally just about to get started.

You know, we heard Ted Cruz mention Pennsylvania, one of the five northeast states with primaries on deck next week. But, you know, when you talk to the Cruz camp, you talk to the Trump camp, they both talk about why Indiana is so important. Tell me why. CHRIS FRATES, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brooke.

Well, I mean, it's pretty obvious because we're seeing Donald Trump here in Indiana. That's his first stop after these big wins in New York. And we heard from one of his senior advisers last night, a guy named Paul Manafort, who said, if Ted Cruz loses here in Indiana, he should get out of the race. So the Trump folks really trying to make this a must-win state for Ted Cruz.

And if you look at the demographics here, the demographics are good for Donald Trump. There are a lot of folks here who don't have college degrees, who have manufacturing jobs. That is a demographic that works for Donald Trump, has worked for him in, you know, neighboring states like Michigan. And going forward, you know, that's the kind of math he needs, because, remember, 57 delegates at stake here in Indiana. He's got a shot at winner take all. And that will be a big building block to getting to that magic number of 1,237. He's expected to do very well in the states that are up in the east next week, but to do well here in Indiana is going to be huge.

And it's going to be a battleground. The Club for Growth saying today that they're going to spend $1 million here in Indiana against Donald Trump. Remember, they've spent money against Trump in other places, in Wisconsin, Utah, for instance, and Trump lost there. The other thing to note here, a little unusual for Donald Trump, he's going to sit down with Republican Governor Mike Pence. Mike Pence hasn't endorsed anybody yet. He says he's open to that. He's also open to meeting with all three of the presidential candidates. In fact, he'll meet with Ted Cruz tomorrow. So Donald Trump doing something he's not always doing, which is doing a little courting of the state's political king maker. So it's a little bit different of a look for Donald Trump here in a number of ways, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Chris Frates, spelled it out perfectly why Indiana matters. Thank you, sir, for that. We'll stay tuned as Mr. Trump is about to take to that podium.

Meanwhile, how will Donald Trump do in Indiana? It's hard to say because there actually aren't a lot of polls in that state to give campaigns any kind of clue. So let's bring in CNN political analyst David Gregory, host of "The David Gregory Show" podcast and former moderator of "Meet the Press."

David Gregory, nice to see you again today.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Good to see you.

BALDWIN: Let's begin with, first of all, just hearing Chris Frates say "Indiana" and "battleground" in the same sentence, who would have thunk?

GREGORY: Right.

BALDWIN: But I'm curious, from you, we like to chew on numbers and polls. Why is there so little polling in Indiana?

GREGORY: You know, I actually don't know the answer to that, why there's so - there's so little. I mean, historically, in terms of presidential contests, it's been a long time since we've - we've seen Indiana matter in May in a presidential contest.

[14:05:01] BALDWIN: Maybe that's why.

GREGORY: Yes, and I think that is part of it. The reason why it's a good Cruz state potentially is because of the conservative base there. A more conservative electorate, unlike New York state, that's got a more moderate Republican electorate. So that's why it could be good ground for Ted Cruz on a more conservative message.

But, of course, Trump will compete there. And he's come off of a string of setbacks, including a loss in Wisconsin with an overwhelming win in New York and now you're seeing this change, a change in tone, and now starting to talk about getting Cruz out of the race. The reality is, as we talked about this morning, that Trump is in a very good position to win on the first ballot. Even if he doesn't get to 1,237, he's in a position to get close and maybe close will be close enough to start to negotiate to get some of those unpledged delegates his way.

BALDWIN: We know it's mathematically impossible for Ted Cruz to clinch, prior to Cleveland. As you point out, Trump wants to win on that first ballot. If it goes to that, Cruz, obviously, wants a second ballot. Let me just play a little sound from Senator Cruz.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The math is virtually impossible for Donald Trump. Donald Trump is not getting to 1,237. Nobody is getting to 1,237. The reason Donald's so scared is the last three weeks, and in particular the win in Wisconsin, put the nail in the coffin and made clear Donald doesn't get to 1,237. He knows that, which means this race is headed to Cleveland. It's headed to a contested convention. And at a contested convention, I'll come in with a ton of delegates. Donald will come in with a ton of delegates. And it will be a battle to see who can earn a majority of the delegates elected by the people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Trump says he can't get there. Cruz says he can't get there. What would the Ted Cruz camp strategy be to ensure a contested convention and ballot number two?

GREGORY: Well, first of all, he's got to start winning some more. I mean Cruz is right, and in that sound bite he makes a compelling argument. It is hard for Trump to get to 1,237. It's not impossible. It's virtually impossible for Cruz to get there. And, Kasich, it's been impossible for, for a long time.

BALDWIN: Yes.

GREGORY: For Trump it's hard, it's still possible, but it's also easier enough for him to get close. And if he's close, he can negotiate for delegates to come his way on a first ballot. That's what's important to remember.

Cruz is right, if he can get this to a second ballot or beyond, then it's a whole new game. And you're right, the Trump camp is concerned about that because then you can have all kinds of different factors around electability and Cruz and his team have proved to be very adept at their organizational strength and their potential organizational strength on the floor of a convention, something we haven't seen in decades, of course. Trump is now trying to catch up.

So this is all about argument momentum and trying to keep people engaged in thinking that this is not over. It's not for us to pronounce it over, but just to lay out what the facts are moving forward.

Cruz has got to do something that he did in Wisconsin, expand his base of support. He got basically a goose egg in New York.

BALDWIN: Yes.

GREGORY: He's got to go to other states in west, including Indiana and the Midwest to show that he can reach beyond that core strength of evangelical Christians as supporters and win a bigger piece of the Republican electorate.

BALDWIN: Final question, just quickly, on John Kasich. Who does it help or hurt that he stays in? I mean I know you talked to Governor Romney on your podcast recently -

GREGORY: Yes.

BALDWIN: And he said, you know, because Cruz and Kasich would be battling it out on that first ballot at a contested convention, that's what he said to you, correct me if I'm wrong, that then Trump would be able to get it on the first ballot.

GREGORY: Right, because he divides the vote.

BALDWIN: Right.

GREGORY: Now you could argue that Trump - you know, so Trump probably wants both of them in at this point. I think it's probably right. I think it's Cruz who doesn't want Kasich in, and for good reason. I mean Kasich has only won his home state. You know, you can't be a distant third and then say to the party, oh, well, but - you should really nominate me to take on Hillary Clinton. You know, I think that's a pretty thin argument. But he's going to stay in as long has he has money, as long as there's this unusual condition of having such a significant anti-Trump movement in the party then perhaps he'll stay in. But I think at this point he's really hurting Cruz and his ability to try to go one-on-one with Trump.

BALDWIN: OK. David Gregory, as always, thank you, thank you, thank you.

GREGORY: Sure.

BALDWIN: Meantime, Donald Trump, yes, he's on the attack. It's become one of the hallmarks of the frontrunner's campaign, really the counterpunch, especially when Ted Cruz is in the crosshairs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So lyin' Ted Cruz talked about New York values.

Lyin' Ted, lyin' Ted Cruz.

We call him lyin' - lyin' Ted.

CROWD: (INAUDIBLE).

TRUMP: He is lyin' Ted. You know, I came up with the idea, but have you to spell it right. It's l-y-i-n'. Lyin' Ted, the Bible held high, he puts it down and then he lies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That will go down in what we'll call the pre-Manafort/Trump era, as in Paul Manafort, Trump's new campaign - or new convention manager. Since his hire, Trump's tweets have been less angry, his TV appearances less brash, and his victory speech last night in New York, well, I heard no mention of lyin' Ted.

[14:10:07] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Senator Cruz is just about mathematically eliminated.

As you know, we have won millions of more votes than Senator Cruz. We've won, and now, especially after tonight, close to 300 delegates more than Senator Cruz.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: From lyin' Ted to Senator Cruz, that is what we may end up calling post-Manafort/Trump. And although only he and Trump truly know what the plan is there, we know Manafort was hired to focus on the delegates, particularly in the scenario of a contested convention.

But what about those in the party who have already written Trump off? South Carolina Congressman Mulvaney has decided to skip the convention all together. He joins me now from Capitol Hill.

Congressman, nice to have you on.

REP. MICK MULVANEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Hi. Brooke, I'm sorry, you said that I had written Trump off. Is that the introduction?

BALDWIN: You tell me. I understand you are a Rand Paul supporter, but -

MULVANEY: Yes.

BALDWIN: Let's rip the Band-Aid off and talk Trump. Tell me how you feel.

MULVANEY: Sure. I'm going to support whoever our nominee is. Just because I'm not going to Cleveland doesn't mean that I've written Mr. Trump off. So I - so I thought maybe I misheard that.

BALDWIN: Glad we got that on the record. Thank you so much.

MULVANEY: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Let - remind me why you have decided not to go to the convention?

MULVANEY: Yes, it's - there's a lot of media outlets that are trying to make a big story out of a group of us who aren't going to Cleveland. It's made the front page of some papers here today. And the sort version of it is that a lot of us are just sick of the politics and would like to stay home for a couple of days. So I'd much rather be in South Carolina than be in Cleveland. I'm not a delegate. A lot of us are not delegates. Some people think that members of Congress are automatically delegates. We're not. I was asked to be a delegate and decided to let some grass roots people from back home to do that. So mostly a lot of us are just tired of the politics and happy to let other folks go to Cleveland and pick our nominee so that we can back whoever that happens to be.

BALDWIN: But then what about - what about House leadership? We heard specifically from Speaker Paul Ryan encouraging Republicans just like you to attend the convention. Here he was. I'm sure you've heard this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PAUL RYAN (R), HOUSE SPEAKER: I think we should go. I think this is - this is our convention, making our nominee. So I think everybody should participate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So why - why, congressman, buck party leadership?

MULVANEY: Again, I'm not really bucking leadership, I just don't want to go. It's not part of our job. Again, we don't pick the president. The delegates will pick the president. I'm not a delegate. It might be an historic time. It might not be. I'd still rather stay home than go to Cleveland. Again, it's not that we're buck leadership. It's not that we're against any of the candidates. There are just some of us who are ordinary people and who are happy to let other folks go and participate in the process so that we, as a party, can pick our nominee. So there - BALDWIN: Of course you're ordinary people. And, you know, you're ordinary people who represent extraordinary people, of course, back home in your district. So why not then go represent your district? I understand you don't have to be there. But to be part of the process. This has been an unprecedented political cycle. Why not be there and stay strong - stand strong?

MULVANEY: The role of a delegate is a really important role in our party and it's an honor to be a delegate. In fact, it was an honor just to be invited to sit to try and be a delegate from the folks back home.

I'm more than happy to let the grassroots people, the people who make the phone calls, put up the sign, have done all the work for all of the candidates, happy to let them do that. I get enough opportunity to represent my district here in this building. It's - it's - I have no difficulty letting those good folks go to Cleveland. I don't think it's a slight to anybody. It's not a challenge to anybody. It's simply someone making a decision to stay home and work as opposed to go to some large political conference in Cleveland, Ohio.

BALDWIN: Just final question. You were very quick to clear up feelings on Trump. You will, you know, support whoever the eventual Republican nominee is. I know, as I mentioned, you had supported Senator Paul. Are you leaning any which way thus far?

MULVANEY: No. And it's - I've actually enjoyed this role of sort of disinterested (ph) third party. I was a big rand Paul supporter. I've not picked between Trump and Cruz, even though I had the chance to do that. I'm more than happy to support, without reservation, whoever the good folks in Cleveland decide to pick.

BALDWIN: OK. Congressman Mulvaney, thank you so much for your time, sir. Appreciate it.

MULVANEY: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up, we talk Democrats. Where the Bernie Sanders campaign is charging forward, vowing to fight to the finish. Hillary Clinton now sending an olive branch to some of his supporters, but can she bridge the divide? A former NAACP president, Sanders fan, joins me next.

Also breaking news out of Flint, Michigan. Felony charges filed today against three officials in that city's lead water crisis. The attorney general saying, quote, "this is only the beginning." We'll take you live to Flint.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:18:51] BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Well, after a seven-state losing streak, Hillary Clinton has said, announcing victory is in sight. She is closer than ever to clinching the Democratic Party's nomination after cruising to victory in the heated New York primary. The win called for Secretary Clinton just 40 minutes after the polls closed. The result, Clinton, 58 percent, Sanders, 42. For Clinton, this was victory. But polling problems, particularly in Brooklyn, gave Senator Sanders some serious concerns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The race for the democratic nomination is in the home stretch, and victory is in sight.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am really concerned about the conduct of the voting process in New York state. And I hope that that process will change in the future. And I'm not alone about my concerns. The comptroller of the city of New York talked today about voter irregularities and about chaos at the polling places.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joining me now, Ben Jealous, a former NAACP president, tremendous leader and a Bernie Sanders supporter.

[14:20:05] BEN JEALOUS, FORMER NAACP PRESIDENT: Thanks.

BALDWIN: Ben Jealous, nice to see you.

JEALOUS: Good to see you.

BALDWIN: All right, so you talked to Senator Sanders and others in his camp. They say, listen, we know maybe the math isn't on our side, but we are going to that convention in Philadelphia in July. When you look ahead, Ben, to next week, the primaries, four of those five contests, they're closed primaries. Something that might have hurt him here in New York. How does he win?

JEALOUS: Look, you know, we win by campaigning, by earning each vote, by really pushing forward with our campaign that's of, by and for the people. I guess I would correct one thing you said. She - you know, she has been closer before. She's had a delegate lead of about 300. Now it's down less than 250. In fact, they've been just under 200. She picked up about 33 last night.

So, you know, this continues to be a very close race when you just look at the pledged delegates and, frankly, getting to that lead spot. What we know is that no one is going to clinch this based off of pledged - you know, pledged delegates, and so we're going to run now like she did in 2008. We will run right until the very end.

BALDWIN: Hmm. Hmm. Senator Sanders did extremely well when it comes to the youth vote, especially 18 to 24. Where he has had a real problem is with the African-American vote. It was an issue here in New York, despite ads like this released by Spike Lee. Here's a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People of color have a deeply vested interest in what Bernie Sanders brings to us in this election.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People like Michael Brown, Sandra Bland and my father, Eric Garner.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're not just hashtags and trending topics.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I mean, obviously, a number of prominent, yourself included, you know, folks are supporting him, but what is the problem here? Why can't he quite get the black vote? It was 75 percent to 25 percent in Clinton's favor in New York.

JEALOUS: Well, look, this is her home state. She's run for Senate twice. She has a lot of relationships. And the reality is that -

BALDWIN: But it's not just New York.

JEALOUS: No, that's - no, that's right. That's right, but it did trend down a bit from the Midwest. We were hoping that it would go up some. You know, but, I think what's real is that the Clintons have not been able to take the black vote for granted. We have contested it, we have fought, we have pushed up some places now up to 35 percent. You know, you saw in that video activists like Harry Belafonte, and he and I (INAUDIBLE) have been lifelong activists, are used to stepping out on faith and, quite frankly, bringing folks with us and having to, you know, even fight within our community to get folks to try something new, to try a new way.

What's clear, though, when you look at the exit polls, is that people still continue to trust Bernie more. When you look at the head-to-head polls and, quite frankly, as a friend of mine said, you know, Trumpzilla (ph) is back and so now we have to think about who's going to beat Trump. And in the head-to- head polls, we have the candidate who's most likely to beat Donald Trump at the polls next fall. All of these will be important questions going forward. People, yes, they want to vote who's going to win in the primary, but, more importantly, they want to vote for who's going to win next fall and we still have the best candidate to win next fall.

BALDWIN: What about, just on tone, you know, some harsh criticism coming from Jen Palmieri (ph), the Clinton coms director, saying that Senator Sanders has been, quote, "his tone has been destructive" to the point that he is, quote, "not productive to Democrats and is not productive for this country." How would you respond to that?

JEALOUS: Well, first of all, Jen's an old friend. She actually was my first boss in Washington when she was the -

BALDWIN: OK, there you go.

JEALOUS: The secretary for Leon Panetta back in the home district and I was his page. So I've known Jen for a long time. I love her. I think she's great at what she does. I really do think she should watch her tone, because the reality is that the young activists who have flocked to our campaign are the future of the party, and in calling our campaign destructive, you are also sending a bad message towards them. And we need to, frankly, embrace the activists in our party, embrace the young people in our party. It is their energy that's going to make sure that we win next fall.

BALDWIN: And when you talk to some of those young folks, and I've been to - I've been to Bernie rallies and I have heard them say to me, you know, listen, if he doesn't get the nomination, I may not vote in November, which is not something, as a Democrat, you necessarily want to hear. I know you can't predict the future and you can't crawl into Bernie Sanders' head, but, you know, if and when he doesn't clinch the nomination, it is, in fact, Secretary Clinton, she even spoke to Senator Sanders last night and had a message that we need to be unified. How should he tell these faithful followers to support Secretary Clinton?

JEALOUS: Well, look, you know, the party is going to have to be willing to, you know, meet - to, you know, to meet folks halfway. Whoever loses, whoever goes in to, you know, with fewer - with fewer - you know, whoever goes in there as the loser, if you will, the party's going to have to be willing to dance with them. And we saw this back in 2008 when there were a lot of Clinton supporters that said that they were not going to support anybody.

But this year what's different is that the issues are quite frankly about clean races, about getting out of these things that George Clooney called obscene, even though the party was at his house. You know, folks, you know, young people are going to want to see a party that they can trust, that they can believe is actually responsible to the people if they're going to vote for me. They have very high standards. They're smart. They've done their research. And so it's not just like Bernie can say, you know, follow the Democrat Party and people will. Folks have to see a party that's worth following. And, frankly, our party, as it does, you know, from time to time, needs to clean up its own act some.

[14:25:27] BALDWIN: Senator Sanders on our own air the other morning saying it is a two-way street.

Ben Jealous, great to see you. Thank you very much.

JEALOUS: Always good to see you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

Coming up next, we will talk with a veteran journalist and Hillary Clinton biographer Paul Bernstein. His take on the New York primary last night, Secretary Clinton's victory, what it means for her looking ahead.

Plus, the very first criminal charges handed down today in the Flint water crisis. The attorney general says this is only the beginning.

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