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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Trump Speaks on Bathroom Bill; Volunteer Deputy Manslaughter Trial Begins. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired April 21, 2016 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[12:00:00] KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you so much for joining us AT THIS HOUR.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: LEGAL VIEW with Ashleigh Banfield starts now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

Caitlyn Jenner's name just came up on the campaign trail. Donald Trump take a very surprising stance, especially as a Republican, when it comes to one of the country's hottest and most divisive issues. In breaking news this hour, the GOP frontrunner addressed North Carolina's controversial bathroom measure. Trump says he is against that policy and that he believes that transgender people should use whatever bathroom they feel is appropriate. I'm sure you will know that stance is putting him right at odds with his rival, Texas Senator Ted Cruz.

And joining us now with more on this is CNN's Jason Carroll.

Did not expect -

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Did not.

BANFIELD: That this would become front and center in the GOP race.

CARROLL: Correct.

BANFIELD: But we are in some down days between some primaries right now.

CARROLL: And progressive is a word I think not many people would use to describe Donald Trump.

BANFIELD: Right.

CARROLL: And certainly Ted Cruz might use it to describe that word. And as for Caitlyn Jenner, that reference came up when asked which bathroom at Trump Tower she would use. He said, she should be able to use whatever bathroom she would like. Also weighing in on the subject of what's going on in North Carolina, saying that transgender law is just not a very good idea. He spelled out his beliefs this morning on the "Today" show during a town hall. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: North Carolina, what they're going through, with all of the business that's leaving and all of the strife and - and that's on both sides, you leave it the way it is. There have been very few complaints the way it is. People go, they use the bathroom that they feel is appropriate. There has been so little trouble. And the problem with what happened in North Carolina is the strife and the economic - I mean the economic punishment that they're taking. So I would say that's probably the best plan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have any transgender people working in your organization?

TRUMP: I don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No?

TRUMP: I really don't know. I probably do. I really don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. So if Caitlyn Jenner were to walk into Trump Tower and want to use the bathroom, you would be fine with her using any bathroom she chooses?

TRUMP: That is correct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL: And it certainly didn't take long for Senator Ted Cruz to weigh in on this issue. He tweeted about it, not once but twice, also spoke about it at a campaign event in Fredrick, Maryland. He called what Trump said - he said it's just a bad idea.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Now let me ask you, have we gone stark raving nuts? This is the political correctness. This is basic common sense. Let me ask you, are there any parents of daughters here? I'm the father of two little girls. Here is basic common sense. Grown adult men, strangers, should not be alone in a bathroom with little girls.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL: And Trump simply could be looking at this from a business point of view, if you think about what's going on down there in North Carolina where you have businesses like PayPal and Deutsche Bank restricting business there. You've got performers such as - look at the list - Bruce Springsteen, Ringo Starr, Pearl Jam, Boston, all pulling out. Not good for business. Cruz saying that this is not about business. This is more about something dealing with morality. Cruz would also be the one to say that, look, Donald Trump is not the real conservative here. He is the real conservative. This is just another example proving that.

BANFIELD: It's just fascinating to see this sort of come out of thin air, it seems, on the presidential campaign. It has certainly been controversial in the news elsewhere but now it's front and center. Jason Carroll, thank you for that.

I want to talk more about this - about Trump's and Cruz's comments about this so-called bathroom law controversy with Kristin Beck. You may recognize that name because she is a somewhat famous transgender activist. She's retired U.S. Navy SEAL and she was featured in the CNN documentary "Lady Valor." She's also currently running for Congress as a Democrat and she joins me now on the telephone.

Kristin, thanks so much for joining us at this last moment with this breaking news. I guess I need to ask your reaction to Donald Trump and what he said on the "Today" show effectively supporting what transgender people have said all along, that they should be allowed to go into the bathroom corresponding with the sex that they identify with. Is Donald Trump now sort of a newfound hero for you? And I know I'm asking you as a Democrat.

KRISTIN BECK, TRANSGENDER ACTIVIST (via telephone): Well, here's the thing about Donald Trump. It's well and nice that he invited Caitlyn Jenner to come in there and use the bathroom, you know what I mean? But Caitlyn's a beautiful, transgender person. She's a millionaire. And so it's kind of like, hey, thanks a lot for inviting a beautiful transgender person, who's a millionaire, who's probably in your little club, to use the bathroom.

But there 8,000 homeless people who are LGBT in New York City alone. Out of those 8,000, it's probably about half are transgender. Hey, Donald Trump, how about inviting some of us in? How about inviting me?

[12:05:09] BANFIELD: So -

BECK: Because if you look at me, I'm kind of a tom boy and so I'm not - I have no surgeries and I don't have all that dough (ph) that I could put in to making myself look like a Barbie doll. I'm just a regular person.

BANFIELD: So -

BECK: And so would he invite me in to use any bathroom? I doubt it.

BANFIELD: It seemed awfully clear to me what his position was. He said they should be able to bathroom the bathroom that they choose. But here is the question I want to ask you and I want you to pivot over to Cruz and those who support his point of view that grown men shouldn't be allowed to go into the bathroom with his two little girls or anyone else's two little girls. I understand both sides. I want to know what your response would be to those people who are worried about nefarious people taking advantage, for criminal purposes or for - for, you know, wrong doing, to use something that gives you rights to exploit the bill for their purposes. How do you protect against that?

BECK: Well, that's - I mean agree with you. It's kind of like one of those things where you - how do you protect people and their privacy against violence and everything else and also to protect my dignity as a person. Now, in North Carolina, that - it's a state and it's a state's right to be able to do things like they're doing. And they can make a minor change and still be doing what they want to do, protecting the kids in their bathrooms, but just change birth certificate to driver's license. Because on my driver's license it says female. And it took a lot of effort to get to that level. Now, if they change the one word like that -

BANFIELD: So actually that's a great question. Kristin, that is something I've been sort of mulling over in my head, where is the middle ground? Where is the middle ground? Would it be say a doctor's note or something.

BECK: That's the middle ground.

BANFIELD: And the driver's license, I understand what you're saying -

BECK: The middle ground is driver's license.

BANFIELD: But - but - well, is it though because I'm not you, but if I were I would feel like I'm having to register with the state. Doesn't it feel as though you're having to register with the state?

BECK: Yes, but - but the thing is, you like almost never have to check my license when I'm using the restroom because if you were to look at me and you know that I'm transgender. So I'm going in there. I'm respectful. I have a dress on. I look - I look OK. It's not like I'm going in there. There's a big difference. And it's just like when somebody like Ted Cruz would keep using male pronouns and being - you know when somebody's being mean about it or when somebody's just making a mistake.

BANFIELD: Yes.

BECK: Now, you know when somebody goes into that restroom, is it a transgender person or if it's somebody going in there for like some evil deed. And it's going to be pretty obvious.

BANFIELD: Yes.

BECK: For the most part, you know what I mean? And so I doubt anyone would ever check my license when I go into a bathroom.

BANFIELD: Well, I do appreciate you taking the time. I know we caught you on the run as the news was just breaking, so -

BECK: So we just - how about the comment -

BANFIELD: Sorry, go ahead.

BECK: Well, we do need - common sense needs to come into play, I think.

BANFIELD: I appreciate it and I always like to thank you for your service as well as a Navy SEAL. You're one of the bravest of the brave.

BECK: Thank you. BANFIELD: Thank you. Kristin Beck joining us live.

I want to talk more about Donald Trump and Senator Ted Cruz's comments, along with the GOP race, how this all fits in because there's a lot going on in Florida with regard to rules. It seems like a real departure from what we just talked about, but it isn't. Also with us is CNN politics executive editor Mark Preston, who can help to sort of put all of this into context.

So, first to you, Mark Preston, and if you could weigh in on this very significant shift for Republicans dealing with Donald Trump and things he's said before that don't necessarily fit in with Republican platform ideas. This certainly would not.

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: Right, Ashleigh, but I think we have to take a step back. I mean we're at a time right now in what LBGT activists will say is their civil rights moment. Just two years ago I sat down with pro-gay rights marriage advocates who thought they had no hope of being able to get married across the country, at least for another five or ten years, and look how quickly that moved. Now, Donald Trump, who prior to running for the Republican nomination really had more centrist views on it, I'm not surprised that he actually made this statement today. We are now entering into a new phase of the campaign. Clearly Donald Trump is looking at the general election. And one thing we haven't seen in this campaign, certainly in the Republican primary, is a lot of discussion on social conservative views. That has not come up at all. They've pretty much been on the same side. But for someone like Donald Trump, I'm not surprised that he did it and I actually don't think it is a bad political move on his part.

BANFIELD: Well, then, to that point, that he is pivoting with those comments to a general election way of speaking, way of presenting, he was actually asked specifically about becoming more presidential. And the "Today" show host said, what about this notion? Are you changing? Are there two Trumps? Because at times you seem like you're on course and at other times completely off the rails. And he answered it. Let's listen. I want to ask you about it on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: At the right time I will be so presidential you will be so bored. You will - you will say, can't he - can't he have a little bit more energy? But I know when to be presidential. We have two more left. They are really - they have absolutely no path to victory. In fact, it was announced this morning, they have no path to victory. And we have a very easy path to victory. And I think they'll be gone very soon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:10:18] BANFIELD: You know, Mark Preston, changing on a dime seems to be like a political death nail for most candidates. Etch-a-sketch Mitt Romney. I can pivot. I can change. Everything is new again.

PRESTON: Right. BANFIELD: But it doesn't seem to have that same effect on Donald Trump. Could it as we move into the general election?

PRESTON: He tries. He tries, doesn't he, Ashleigh? He is really restraining himself. He's holding himself back.

Listen, Donald Trump has been such an interesting character to watch during this presidential election because his instincts has gotten him to where he is right now. His instincts will prevent him from potentially winning the primary. And certainly if he were to, he would not win the general.

Now, we have seen these Washington insiders that he's railed against coming to his campaign and they are making him modulate his rhetoric. Donald Trump, in many ways, if he was able to modulate his rhetoric and be more inclusive, then I do believe Donald Trump could appeal to voters that potentially would go towards Democrats. So, if Donald Trump is able to continue to modulate it, if he's not on the Twitter every night, I do think that is good for his campaign.

BANFIELD: All right, I want to pivot to - because just before I spoke with you, Mark, I said it all kind of converges. The rules of the convention, what's being said on the campaign trail, although they seem divergent, they really aren't. That is where Phil Mattingly comes in.

You're in Hollywood, Florida, where the RNC's meeting over proposals to the rules committee, super boring any other time, but not right now. And as the candidates either go there themselves to make their case to the RNC or send their - their underlings, as in the case of Trump, he didn't go himself but he sent some big wigs, are they making any progress at that meeting? Are they actually going to write up a memo, Phil Mattingly, to send to the rules committee saying change it all or don't change a thing? Or is there some middle ground there?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think Reince Priebus, the RNC chairman's worst nightmare is that they make any kind of changes at this meeting. Ashleigh, you make a good point, the campaigns are extremely focused on what's going on in Hollywood, Florida, this week with good reason. There's 168 members of the RNC. All 168 will be delegates in Cleveland. That's why you saw Ted Cruz down here in person, John Kasich down here in person. And while Donald Trump isn't here personally, the entire top tier of his team, those individuals he's recently brought on that Mark was just mentioning, are here and they're working hard. They've having private meetings. They're giving private presentations. And it's all a little bit about wining and dining these delegates, but also keeping an eye on those rules.

Now, look, Ashleigh, the expectation coming out from RNC officials is there won't be any major changes to the recommendations for how the convention will be run, but a lot of the individuals here at these meetings will have a say in what those convention rules will end up looking like. Those are the types of rules that could make or break a candidacy in a contested convention. That's why you've seen the candidates down here in full force. That's why you've seen Donald Trump's team, which behind the scenes would really like that pivot you've been talking about toward a general election, working extremely hard down here, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: OK, OK, yes, but - and I always have a "yes, but" to that stuff. So, Phil Mattingly, to you on this one. Donald Trump's internal memo - campaign internal memo suggested that they are going to blow past that 1,237. They're going to hit 1,400 delegates. I'm showing the memo, but there's the nut graph right there. They're going to go so far past 1,237, they'll hit 1,400. Who cares about the convention? Who cares about that delegate fight? And to that end, who cares about the RNC and that meeting? These are all my words, but effectively 1,400 delegates means that. Is that why, Phil Mattingly, Donald Trump was the only of the three Republican candidates who didn't go himself? Cruz there, Kasich there, but Donald Trump's guys were there?

MATTINGLY: I think - believe it or not, Ashleigh, I think a better reason is because Donald Trump isn't going to ratchet back his criticism of the RNC or the delegate system on the campaign trail, so it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to be here. One of the most interesting things, talking to the RNC members, is they've been very stung by the comments, not just the top tier RNC officials, the actual members, 168 members, from around the country. These are GOP stalwarts. These are folks that have committed their lives to this party and they feel really hurt by what Donald Trump has said.

Now, his team is working very hard behind the scenes to kind of mend the fences there, and those are very important meetings. But, Ashleigh, even if they think 1,400 is possible, which I think a lot of people would say is pretty generous, you do make a good point, if Donald Trump secures 1,237 in June on June 7th in California, a lot of this doesn't matter. The rules don't matter because he's going to be the nominee.

That said, relationships between the Trump campaign and RNC officials, they matter very much. The RNC is crucial for Donald Trump in a general election if he is the nominee, from data, to infrastructure, to contacts. Mending those fences, what you're seeing from his campaign behind the scenes right now, very important, Ashleigh.

[12:15:10] BANFIELD: You've got a great assignment down there. Thank you to both you, Phil Mattingly, and, Mark Preston, as always, for your 30,000 feet above view. I do appreciate it.

Coming up next, oh, there's that other race, Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders. So today Hillary Clinton's talking gun violence in Connecticut. Don't forget, Connecticut is the place where Sandy Hook happened. Bernie Sanders, for his part, holding a town hall in Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania, one big heck of a state with a whole lot of delegates ahead. So what are they doing and what will it do for them? We're live on the campaign trail with the Democrats after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Politics dominating the news this hour. On the Democratic side, both candidates are making a big push in the northeast. Hillary Clinton visiting Connecticut where she's right now holding a discussion on gun violence. It is an issue that has sparking a contentious back and forth between Secretary Clinton and her rival, Senator Sanders. But while the campaign rhetoric heats up, Clinton is calling for unity. During an interview on ABC, Clinton offered a blueprint on how to bring the Democratic Party together after such a bruising primary fight.

[12:20:12] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When I withdrew in June of 2008, polls were showing that at least 40 percent of my supporters said, oh, they weren't going to - they weren't going to support Senator Obama. So I had to get to work and I had to make the case. I nominated him at the convention. I went from group to group, even as late as the convention, convincing people who were my delegates to come together to unify.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Also, Chelsea Clinton and President Bill Clinton stumping for Secretary Clinton today. Got some live pictures for you to look at right now. Campaign trail. Two different locations. Two very famous faces for their third family member, perhaps the most famous Clinton right now.

All of this going on as Senator Bernie Sanders is making several stops of his own. But he's in Pennsylvania today. He's speaking at a town hall in Scranton right now. Want to listen and hear what he's saying.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Now, what are the issues? All right, number one - one -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).

SANDERS: we're going to get to those. All right, number one, we need a vibrant democracy. We need -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).

SANDERS: No, you need more than me. No, you need more than me. We need a vibrant democracy. What does that mean? Right now, in fact, here, I'm the only candidate who will tell you this straight up. You have a corrupt campaign finance system which allows Wall Street and billionaires to buy elections. That's just a - all of the - all of the people in our country have to ask themselves a very simple question, democracy is not a complicated process. What it means is one person, one vote. What is happening in America today, when you have a handful of billionaires, and Wall Street and big money interests contributing hundreds of millions of dollars to the candidates of their choice, candidates who will (INAUDIBLE) represent the wealthy and the powerful. Is that -

BANFIELD: So what Senator Sanders needs to do in that state is close a tailing number of 13 points. That's what he's facing. Secretary Clinton's at 52 percent polling in that state of Pennsylvania. Bernie Sanders at 39 percent. Got some work to do. That's probably why he's there at this time. And 189 delegates. So it's a biggie.

Later this afternoon, he's going to hold another town hall in Pennsylvania, in Reading. And then tonight he's going to be at a rally in the town of Oaks. Senator Sanders wife, Jane Sanders, will be live with Wolf Blitzer in the next hour of CNN. And Wolf gets underway at 1:00 p.m. Eastern Time, a scant 40 minutes or so from now. So make sure you stay tuned for that.

Coming up next, a volunteer sheriff's deputy in his 70s, who pulled out his gun instead of his Taser, and the result was he killed a man. He's on trial. We're going to tap into this and find out whether he's to blame and what his defense is. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:27:39] BANFIELD: The trial is now officially on in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where a jury's going to have to decide if a one-time volunteer sheriff's deputy is going to go to prison.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roll on your stomach now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, I shot him. I'm sorry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

(INAUDIBLE).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That was a gunshot and it was also the words "I'm sorry, I'm sorry." It was also the moment last April when Roberts Bates says he made a mistake, thinking that he was firing his police issued Taser. But, instead, firing a gun, shooting the bullet into the back of Eric Harris, who was running from the police. Harris died and that volunteer deputy, 74 years old, now faces manslaughter charges. Big issue here, whether Mr. Robert Bates should even have been there with a gun. And the makeup of the jury is fascinating as well. CNN's Sara Sidner watching this trial in detail in Tulsa.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's running. Stop. Stop right here. Stop right here. Stop right here. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop.

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dramatic video of Tulsa County Sheriff deputies chasing suspect Eric Harris as he attempted to escape during an undercover police sting last April. It ended with Harris dead, shot in the back by 73-year-old volunteer reserve sheriff's deputy Robert Bates, who is now on trial for second degree manslaughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roll on your stomach now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop fighting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, I shot him. I'm sorry.

SIDNER: The voice saying I'm sorry is Baits, who says that proves it was a mistake.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He shot me. He -

SIDNER: On the jury's very first day, they were shown the gun Bates used and several videos all during opening statements.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I gotcha. I gotcha.

SIDNER: They also saw what deputies say is Harris illegally selling a gun to an undercover officer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You got another one or is that it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sweet. That's a nice gun.

SIDNER: The undercover officer you hear is the first witness to testify in front of the all-white jury. Harris' brother, Andre, says he hopes race won't play a role in the jury's decision.

SIDNER (on camera): Looking at the makeup of the jury, do you feel like you're going to get a fair trial?

[12:30:04] ANDRE HARRIS, ERIC HARRIS' BROTHER: I do. Let's just praying that people will see that this man killed my brother in cold blood when he was already subdued and on the ground. And he's 73. He shouldn't have been there.