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Ted Cruz Trying to Convince Indiana Voters That They Have Been Sold A Bill Of Goods; Exclusive Interview with Former Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal; Bernie Sanders Hoping for a Win; Crisis in the Detroit School System Is Boiling Over. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired May 03, 2016 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00] DYLAN BYERS, CNN SENIOR REPORTER FOR MEDIA AND POLITICS: Yes, it is personal. And it's an interesting target, of course, because it's not the mainstream media. It is not the "New York Times," "Washington Post," CNN. It's FOX News and it's Roger Ales and Rupert Murdoch.

But what Ted Cruz is doing here is he is going for broke. He is trying to convince Indiana voters that they have been sold a bill of goods and that, you know, one of the person selling them is FOX News network. And I think what he is trying to tap into there is, you know, there are a lot of -- we tend to think of FOX News as the sort of home for Republicans and conservatives. But, of course, there are many conservatives out there who view FOX News as the voice of the Republican establishment. He is trying to sort of convince those voters who may still be on the fence in this final hours that, you know, FOX News, Donald Trump despite all their bickering over the last nine or ten months are actually in collusion. And if they want a true outsider, a real conservative who represents their interests and not a pathological liar, as Ted Cruz has referred to Donald Trump, then they need to go with him. It is really a last ditch effort.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: I'm not so sure, you know, that will change Hoosiers' minds, something talk to folks in Indiana today this last couple of hours. Do you think, though, attacking FOX News could really hurt Senator Cruz in the long run?

BYERS: Well, in the long run, sure. I mean, in the short run, again, he doesn't really have a choice. But in the long run, yes. It could prove very problematic. Look. Let's think about what happens if Ted Cruz doesn't get the nomination which is looking increasingly likely. FOX News is still going to be around come 2017 and beyond. Ted Cruz has already cast himself as the outsider, as the sort of anti- establishment Republican. But, you know, going forward, FOX News is a very powerful platform in the Republican Party. And if he wants to have any beverage with them whatsoever he might have just burned that bridge and perhaps (INAUDIBLE).

BALDWIN: Dylan Byers, Thank you very much.

BYERS: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, he was once running for the Republican nomination himself. Now, former Louisiana governor Bobby Jindal says the party still has a chance to win voters back from Donald Trump. We'll ask him if Ted Cruz is on the right track when governor Jindal joins me live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:36:37] BALDWIN: Welcome back. It is primary day in the great state of Indiana. And what everybody's talking about, Ted Cruz in a withering attack on Donald Trump laying into the Republican front- runner with his most personal and toughest criticism yet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald is a bully. You know, we just visited with fifth graders. Every one of us knew bullies in elementary school. Bullies don't come from strength. Bullies come from weakness. Bullies come from a deep, yawning cavern of insecurity. There is a reason Donald builds giant buildings and puts his name on them everywhere he goes. He is lying to his supporters.

Donald will betray his supporters on every issue. If you care about immigration, Donald is laughing at you. And he is telling them the money they leaks, he doesn't believe what he is saying. He is not going to build the wall. That's what he told the "New York Times." He will betray you on every issue across the board.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: With me now, Bobby Jindal, former Republican presidential candidate, former governor of Louisiana.

Governor, nice to have you on. Welcome back.

BOBBY JINDAL (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Brooke, thank you for having me. It's great to be back on the air with you.

BALDWIN: Let me just remind everyone, once we heard from Ted Cruz, we also dig a response from Donald Trump responding to what we just played you. The last part, let's me just read from Mr. Trump's camp.

Today's ridiculous outburst only proves what I have been saying for a long time. That Ted Cruz does not have the temperament to be president of the United States.

Governor Jindal, how would you describe what's happening between these two adult men?

JINDAL: Well, Brooke, well, I think you're kind to say adult. I mean, look. I think a lot of voters are probably disgusted by both outbursts. And a lot of Republicans, myself included, are probably watching, thinking, why aren't there other choices?

You know, it is rather ironic. You may remember, I was the first candidate to go after Donald Trump last September when a lot of people weren't taking very seriously.

BALDWIN: I remember.

JINDAL: Ironic Ted Cruz is one of the - and I used very strong language, stronger language that I'm accustomed to using. I went after, you know, his ideology, his demeanor, his appearance, everything I could possibly say because I was worried about the rise of Donald Trump.

I think it is ironic, Ted Cruz was one of the last people to continue to embrace him, to defend him as recently as December saying positive things about Donald Trump. So I think it's ironic he is now the last candidate to actually go after Donald Trump now that Donald Trump stands between him and the nomination.

So, you know, look. I think a lot of voters are probably looking at both these men listening to these outbursts thinking these are important times. Why isn't so many talking about the issues that matters to us?

BALDWIN: You know, governor, you were forceful. I remember watching you on that debate stage and then you were out in November. And then I think about Marco Rubio who I know you had previously endorsed and it was the very end for him before the Florida primary when, you know, he was making comments about, you know, pant wetting and hand size. And he even later said, you know, I embarrassed my own kids by using this kind of language and then he admitted it was a mistake but then he was out.

I mean, do you think Ted Cruz is digging his grave here?

JINDAL: Look. I think it's likely -- this election could be, this nomination contest could be all but over by tonight. I think it's more and more likely that Donald Trump will be the nominee. And I think there is an important lesson for conservatives to learn here. Donald Trump's no conservative but I think that's actually one of the reasons, Brooke, he is doing so well.

We conservatives have to a job to do. We have go back and do a better job of explaining our beliefs and our principles to the voters. I think Donald Trump is tapped into the middle class, his ideas, when conservatives say things like they are for limited government, they are for entitlement reform, they are for free trade.

Donald Trump is not for those things and he is doing well in part because voters are responding to what he's saying. He is saying, look. He will fight for them. Now, look. I don't think Donald Trump is going to do a lot of things he has said he is going to do, but I think he did --

[15:40:39] BALDWIN: Whoa, whoa, whoa. What makes you think that?

JINDAL: Well, look. I don't think he is a conservative at heart. He has been for big government. He has been for, for example, a government takeover of health care and then against it. The reality is that I don't think he is opposed to big government. I think he just wants to be the one running big government. I do think he will be better than Hillary Clinton. I don't think it's

a great set of choices. I think there's zero percent chance that Hillary Clinton would put a conservative on the Supreme Court. I'm not here telling you it will be 100 percent job Donald Trump would. But at least there's a chance. And so, look, I think that a lot of the criticisms that Marco Rubio made and Ted Cruz and I made about Donald Trump are true and I think he's done a good job understanding that voters haven't seen the incomes go up. They are worried about illegal immigration. They are worried about America's standing on the world stage. They have been left behind by the elites in D.C. They are mad at President Obama's policies. But they are also mad at the Republican leadership's policies.

He has done a good job of understanding that we conservatives have to do a better job explaining why are our principles will help Americans join the middle class. I don't think we have done that. And I think he has done a good job exploiting that vacuum.

BALDWIN: You know, I read your opinion piece on CNN.com from a couple of days ago. And it is clear, you know, you haven't been the biggest fan of Donald Trump. But I bet you do respect Jon Huntsman, former governor of Utah and this is what he just recently said.

We have had enough interparty fighting. Now is the time to stitch together a winning coalition. And it's been clear almost from the beginning that Donald Trump has the ability to assemble a non- traditional bloc of supporters. He goes on, the ability to cut across traditional party boundaries like '80, '92 and 2008 will be key and Trump is much better positioned to achieve that. Do you agree?

JINDAL: Well, three things. Well, I have a tremendous amount of respect for Governor Huntsman. You are exactly right. Secondly, look. I think Donald Trump is going to have a hardest time beating Hillary of all the Republican candidate that ran for president. Having said that, third, however, if he is the nominee I will be voting for him. I will be supporting him quite simply because I think there are too many important issues.

BALDWIN: You will?

JINDAL: Because I think there are too many important issues. I think there's a chance to get rid of Obamacare. I think there is zero percent chance that Hillary Clinton would do that. So yes. If it comes down to a binary choice between Donald Trump and he is the nominee, I'm going to be supporting my party's nominee. I'm not happy about it. I don't think he is the best qualified candidate. I don't think he is the most likely to be successful, but I would vote for him over Hillary Clinton.

BALDWIN: OK. Final question. You know, Governor Jindal, you have gone through the process of assessing your campaign. You know, deciding to end it. If Ted Cruz loses today in Indiana, what advice would you have for him about assessing the state of the campaign, about how to come to a decision, you know, whether or not he has a viable path forward or not? JINDAL: Well, look. I'm a big fan of letting the voters decide. I

don't think it's for me or anybody in the party or a media to tell a candidate they have to get out of it or should he stay in.

BALDWIN: But I'm not saying me giving him advice or the media. How would you? You know, as a governor and someone that wanted to be president. I think you're in a position to give advice.

JINDAL: Well, look. Sure, no. It was a tough decision for me to get out. I didn't see it was my time. I spent my time presenting detailed policy papers. This was not an election cycle where that's maybe the best way to win an election. That wasn't what voters are looking for this cycle.

But look. At the end of the day whether he stays in or drops out, I think that's a decision only he can make. My advice to him is do what he thinks is best. And I'll respect either decision. I'm not one that says, you know, regardless of today's outcomes, I do think it's more and more likely that Donald Trump would be my party's nominee. But I think Ted Cruz has every right if he wants to take this all the way through the process. He has every right to do that. And I think the more that people tell candidates that they shouldn't stay, that they should drop out, actually, I think that has opposite effect.

BALDWIN: The reverse effect.

JINDAL: Stay in. That's right.

BALDWIN: Interesting. Governor Bobby Jindal, thank you so much for the time, as always. Come back.

JINDAL: Thank you, Brooke. I look forward to it.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

The results today in Indiana could as we were just discussing seal the deal for Donald Trump.

On the democratic side, though, Bernie Sanders, he is hoping he ca win, hoping he can remain viable moving forward. We'll talk to Mr. David Chalian, CNN political director. He will join us live with what he will be watching for this evening.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[15:48:46] CRUZ: I'm going to tell you what I really think of Donald Trump. This man is a pathological liar. A narcissist at a level I don't think this country's ever seen. His response is to accuse everybody else of lying.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The storyline in Indiana today. CNN political director David Chalian is with us now from Washington. We always like to, you know, talk about what you're looking for, looking into the evening. Starting with, when's your number one?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Starting with Cruz's speech. After that performance that you just played right there and that amazing gaggle with reporters when he really teed off on Trump I'm now very curious to see what tone and what he has to say tonight after the results are in. Our Sunlen Serfaty already reporting that the teleprompter are up. So he clearly has something deliberate to say. I'm sure he wants to paint the path forward and that is what I'm going to be looking for tonight, Cruz's speech.

Second item, Trump's total. How sweeping of a victory if it is a victory is it for Trump in Indiana? Does be clean sweep all 57 delegates? If so, that is going to put Cruz in a very difficult position tonight. So I'm looking to see, what Trump's total of the delegate take is.

Then let's look at the Democratic side, Brooke. Democratic super delegates, this is key now. Because the pledge delegate race is basically over. Bernie Sanders cannot overtake Hillary Clinton in that race.

But among super delegates, this is the audience that Bernie Sanders is now talking to. He spoke the other day. He said, please, if you have already committed to Hillary Clinton, but I won your state, please come over to my campaign. So if he wins Indiana tonight, do we see any public movement from any super delegate to go from Clinton to Sanders to indicate that his argument is having an effect? I doubt it, but I'm on the lookout for it.

And finally, I think the biggest thing to watch for tonight, probably is Clinton versus Trump. The general election is likely set after tonight's results in many ways. And looking at how Donald Trump uses his remarks tonight to frame that race, what he wants to say about Hillary Clinton, and what he wants to say about his positioning from now through November will be very, very key to watch tonight. Hillary Clinton is not holding an event tonight, as you know, but Donald Trump is, and I have a feeling he's going to be shaping a general election message tonight.

[15:51:09] BALDWIN: Listening for Trump, as he mentioned Cruz, as he mentioned Clinton? And as you pointed out, has something deliberate to say, Senator Cruz with Teleprompters. We will be watching.

David Chalian, thank you so much on this Indiana primary Tuesday.

CHALIAN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, though, I want to pivot and talk about Detroit. Look at these pictures. All these teachers there in the stand-off with school district after two days now. Massive teacher sick-outs, canceled classes. A president of a powerful national's teachers union joins me live from Detroit next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:55:55] BALDWIN: To Michigan, the crisis in the Detroit school system, it's boiling over. Nearly the entire district is shut down again, all the preschools are closed because hundreds of teachers called off sick because of dispute over their pay for a second day now in a row. This teachers protested the possibility they won't get paid past the end of June. That's because the district is about to run out of money. Union leaders, they are demanding city and state audits. They want to know, where is the money?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IVY BAILEY, PRESIDENT, DETROIT FEDERATION OF TEACHERS: You know, right now, we are talking about teachers not being paid for hours that they worked. But the bigger picture here is funding for Detroit public schools. And we know that we have been talking about this issue throughout this last year. And we want to have a quality school system and our children deserve to have that. And our parent want the same thing.

TERRENCE MARTIN, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, DETROIT FEDERATION OF TEACHERS: And so, when I say that the district needs to get control of finances, this goes back to not just this year, but previous years of emergency management. There's no cohesion here. And that's a grave concern to our membership and to the general public.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: You just saw her there in those pictures. She has met with the mayor as well. She is Randi Weingarten. She is the president of the American Federation of Teachers, one of the largest teachers union in the country. We have talked many times before. You find yourself in the thick of this, trying to help out. Where does everything stand right now, Randy?

RANDI WEINGARTEN, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF TEACHERS: Well, isn't it -- it's just ironic, Brooke, that today is teacher appreciation day. The president of the United States is doing a reception right now, including a teacher from Detroit honoring teachers. And we have a situation in Detroit where the school system -- basically we heard a rumor this weekend that they were not going to pay people past the work done on April 28th. So what's happened is that we were effectively locked out for the last couple of days. And we have left no stone unturned today to try to find a solution to make sure that, you know, we can get back to school.

But at the end of the day, people are entitled in America, that if they work, they get paid for that work. And that sends a very strong message, if you don't want to do that. And that's what's happened in the last couple of days.

BALDWIN: You know, I mean, you do this for the kids. This is about the kids. I know that the Detroit union president said the parents, they get. You know, they understand what's going on but not all parents do. The head of the Detroit parents network (INAUDIBLE), called it disturbing, said students aren't get what they need, you know. You have child care issues with kids not in school, unsupervised kids at home. What happen do you say, Randi, to those parents? WEINGARTEN: Well. Look, that's why we have done everything we could

today and yesterday to find a solution. But at the end of the day, every person in America that works would say that we need to get paid for that work and ultimately most employers, if they were actually going to lock you out, they would have the - they would tell the world that they were closing up shop.

This was even worse because they were saying to parents, no, there's not a problem and they were saying to teachers, of course, there's a problem. So at the end of the day, we understand what parents are doing and saying and we were actually making -- we are actually making contingency plans for tomorrow to find churches and other places where we could teach at, you know, if this goes on. But most importantly, the bottom line is, it's not American to actually ask people to work and not pay them. It's, frankly, wedge theft. And that's what was going on here, and that just unacceptable.

BALDWIN: Randi Weingarten, I appreciate your passion. Let's stay in touch. Hopefully this can get worked out as soon as possible.

WEINGARTEN: We're trying everything.

BALDWIN: I believe you. Randi, thank you so much in Detroit for us. Detroit, Michigan.

And thank you so much for being with me here, of course, on this primary day in Indiana. A lot to talk about. Polls are still open for the next couple of hours. Let's send things to Washington now.

"The LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.