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Presidential Race; Never Trump Movement; Wildfires Force Evacuations. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired May 05, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were operating places we -

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BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN. Thank you so much for being with me on this Thursday.

Hours from now, dueling rallies in the newly defined race for president of the United States. First up, Donald Trump. I can tell you that he will be in West Virginia at 7:00 Eastern Time. The very same hour that Hillary Clinton will rally in California. The first campaign events from either candidate since Donald Trump became the presumed Republican nominee.

For weeks now, Trump has teased his supporters that he hasn't even started in on Hillary Clinton yet. Could that begin tonight? As for the former secretary of state, and you saw the Democratic frontrunner say right here exclusively that she is not running against Trump, she's running her own campaign. And yet her new ad hits Trump and his party pretty hard by using the Republican Party's own words to tear down Donald Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am a unifier. We're going to be a unified party.

ON SCREEN TEXT: A unified party?

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He is a con artist.

MITT ROMNEY (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: A phony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump is the no nothing candidate.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald is a bully.

ROMNEY: This is an individual who mocked a disabled reporter.

TRUMP: Ah, I don't remember.

ROMNEY: Who attributed a reporter's questions to her menstrual cycle. TRUMP: Blood coming out of her - where ever.

RUBIO: The must vulgar person to ever aspire to the presidency.

ON SCREEN TEXT: "Trump defends the size of his hands and 'something else' at Republican debate." "New York Daily News," 3/4/16.

CARLY FIORINA (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The man who seems to only feel big when he's trying to make other people look small.

TRUMP: Don't worry about it, little Marco.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That is just a piece of that ad. It has been a whirlwind 48 hours. Let's pause now to just appreciate what Donald Trump has done. The last time a businessman with zero political experience earned a presidential nomination, that was 1940. Wendell Willkie went up against FDR 76 years ago. And while Trump' ascension is certainly unacceptable in modern times, it remains unacceptable (ph) to a number of Republicans. Among them, the last two Republican presidents. A spokesperson says George W. Bush will no longer participate in the 2016 race. A source says his father, Bush 41, will not attend the Republican National Convention. And this just adding in to all of this. The last Republican nominee for president, Mitt Romney, we're told he is also skipping the party's convention in Cleveland, as well.

So, let me bring in CNN's chief political correspondent Dana Bash, CNN's senior political reporter Nia-Malika Henderson, and political correspondent for "Roll Call," Jonathan Allen.

Welcome, welcome to all of you. And let me begin with you, yellow. You got the memo, Dana Bash.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I was going to say that.

BALDWIN: Starting - starting there. Let's just begin with the Mitt Romney news. What specifically has he said as far as why he won't be in Cleveland and then read between the lines for me.

BASH: Well, you know, I don't think we have to read that far in- between the lines to know why he's not going to be. I mean you heard some of what - a reminder of some of what he said, that devastating speech that he gave about Donald Trump not that long ago. It didn't have any effect, mind you, on the Republican voters in the primary states that made Donald Trump the nominee. But, look, he doesn't want to have any part of it. Neither, clearly, do the Bushs. And that's kind of one part of the story.

The other part of the story that is developing and has been over the past I guess 36 hours now, Brooke, that we talked about a little bit yesterday is the third party and whether or not this Republican Party, as we have known it, is truly going to be ripped apart in the sense that the people who are in the still never Trump movement will find a candidate to be a third party candidate. And sources I've been talking to over the past day or so say that they are still actively trying to find somebody.

BALDWIN: Yes.

BASH: Everybody they want who is viable has said no so far, but they're not giving up and they're hoping that now that the Trump - the fact that Trump is the Republican nominee is the reality, that could change their minds.

BALDWIN: We have an entire segment later on this hour dedicated to that potential for that third party.

BASH: Good.

BALDWIN: So thank you for that tease.

Nia, to you. You know, with the news we just dropped on Bush 41 and Bush 43, you know, it's sort of piling on, not they won't be endorsing, they won't be campaigning. In addition to that, though, you have the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell, saying he will support Trump. Dana was reporting on this too. You know, he will support Trump with expectations that he meets his obligations. So how does Trump, moving forward, unify the Republicans?

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: You know, it's awfully hard to do that and it's going to be more than him just saying, you know, that he can unify the party or that the party is already unified. He's certainly got to reach out to some of these folks who have been so outspoken against him. And I think he also has to ally a lot of the fears that he is unpredictable.

On the one hand he is sort of branding himself as unpredictable, but on the other hand that turns a lot of people off. I think on Tuesday we saw that. It was him peddling this "National Enquirer" story about Ted Cruz, but also, you know, he was in the position to win in Indiana and became, you know, the presumptive nominee. So he's got to kind of stop doing that.

[14:05:14] We've talked so much about Trump being presidential, right? He's got to, I think, make good on this idea that he can be more presidential. So I think that's what a lot of people are looking for, sort of fulfilling the obligations of what it means to be the leader of a party.

BALDWIN: And note that he told Wolf yesterday on "The National Enquirer" bit, you know, he didn't even believe it, but that was just something that he used.

HENDERSON: Right.

BLITZER: On that, Jonathan, sorry, ladies first and then to you, you know, you heard the latest. We played a piece of that Hillary Clinton campaign ad against Trump, noting, you know, they're creatively using - these are Republicans' words, right, against the Republican - the presumptive nominee. She's walking this fine line. When she sat down with Anderson Cooper yesterday and he quoted that Elizabeth Warren tweet about, you know, Trump's a misogynist and a xenophobe, she said - she didn't say I agree. She said, Elizabeth Warren is a smart - smart lady. How long will she walk that delicate line?

JONATHAN ALLEN, POLITICAL COLUMNIST, "ROLL CALL": Not very long. I don't anticipate this is going to be bean bag. I mean we're looking at - at nuclear war here in political terms between these two candidates. Both of these candidates are going to try to drive up the other one's negatives. And the way that Trump has done that - this was a brilliant observation, I think, by Ted Cruz the other day. In the middle of him calling Trump a pathological liar and a serial philanderer, he said, look at what Donald Trump does, he figures out his own weakness then projects it onto the other person and calls them that. Donald Trump has said any number of untrue things on the campaign trial, so he started calling Ted Cruz "lyin' Ted," and that stuck and it was very effective for him.

I think you're going to see these two candidates really just unload on each other, and it may not always come from the candidate's mouth. Donald Trump likes for it to come from his own mouth. I think he sees that as a truth-telling moment. Hillary Clinton doing it a little more traditionally with her campaign and some of the outside groups so far, but I - I doubt this is going to be a - be a Tea Party of a presidential campaign.

BALDWIN: Do you think - do you think, Dana, that we will see a different Trump tonight in West Virginia now that, you know, he admitted he's already in general election territory?

BASH: You know, possibly. Look, he has to walk a fine line because he got where he got by being Donald Trump. By, you know, being different. By saying things that made a lot of people cringe, even by his own estimation, his own wife at times. And so he wants to keep giving that to his core supporters, but he also understands that - should understand that he is the statitular (ph) of effective head, I should say, of an entire party right now. And that gives him a whole different responsibility.

And I mentioned the people who were in the never Trump movement. There are also senior people who are saying, OK, I'm along for the ride, including Mitch McConnell, the Senate majority leader. But in his statement last night, he was very clear. Basically, show me the money. It's your responsibility now, Donald Trump, to unify the party, to prove that you're a real conservative and to prove basically, I mean, I'm, you know, giving my interpretation of his statement, that you're a grown-up.

BALDWIN: Yes.

BASH: So he's got to do both of those things and, you know, he's got a lot of time to do it and it is possible to do it. But, you know, it's not so easy given how far out there Donald Trump has been successfully so.

BALDWIN: Well, then you also have these Republicans, you know, some of whom maybe who haven't run, they're nervous with Trump at the top of the ticket. But then you have someone of the likes of veteran John McCain who said, you know, behind closed doors, at a fundraiser, he's caught saying this. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA (voice-over): But have no doubt that if it is Donald Trump at the top of the ticket here in Arizona with over 30 percent of the vote being a Hispanic vote, I have no doubt that this may be the race of my life. People are angry. They're upset. They feel that there's this disconnect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Nia, valid fears?

HENDERSON: Yes, valid fears. I mean, he is looking at a very tough re- election race. A lot of these other senators who are on the ballot and thinking that Donald Trump is obviously going to be at the top of the ticket, they are concerned. And it's not just about Latinos who view Donald Trump very unfavorably. His numbers also among white women are also horrible. I mean if you look at the way Mitt Romney - Mitt Romney essentially won 59 percent of white voters in 2012. And Donald Trump, at least in our head to head matchups against Hillary Clinton at this point, (INAUDIBLE) percent of white voters. So he's actually underperforming among white voters at this point. So he's got a lot of work to do. First in trying to rally the typical Republican voters, like suburban white women, but then moving on to try to expand to African-Americans and Latinos.

[14:10:08] BALDWIN: And, finally, let me move back to Hillary Clinton, Jonathan. You - you argue in your piece that Hillary Clinton needs to learn from, of all people, Ted Cruz. How?

ALLEN: Well, I think what she has always done is tried to play up her strengths and you heard that in the interview that you just played a few minutes ago. She wants to talk about how good she is, how effective she is and perhaps seed some ground to Donald Trump on areas where he may have strengths. That's what she's done traditionally with Barack Obama and Bernie Sanders in the last two campaigns. I think what she's got to do is figure out how to go after Trump on some of the things that are her perceived weaknesses, that is basically to neutralize the things people don't like about her by doing what Trump has done to other candidates like Ted Cruz and project some of those things onto her - onto - I'm sorry, on to Trump. You know, I think the dishonesty card is a big one for her potentially.

BALDWIN: OK. Johnathan Allen, Nia-Malika Henderson, Dana Bash, thank you so much.

HENDERSON: Thanks, Brooke.

ALLEN: Thank you.

BASH: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: A programming note for all of you, House Speaker Paul Ryan will join Jake Tapper on "The Lead" this afternoon, 4:00 Eastern, here on CNN. Do not miss that.

Coming up next, the demand for another option, the drumbeat growing louder for, as Dana mentioned a second ago, a third party candidate, but who might that be and who might it impact the most? We'll discuss that.

And the images are absolutely stunning. Have you seen this? An entire town forced to evacuate through a wall of smoke and fire. We'll talk with someone who just made it out of there, escaping by helicopter.

And new video from the ground of that intense firefight that killed a Navy SEAL. His heroic actions in the brutal fight against ISIS. Keep it right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:15:50] BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Donald Trump versus Hillary Clinton. That could be what we're looking at come November. But you know what, that is not the best choice for some Republicans. A number of them are demanding another option, a third party option, since Donald Trump was declared the presumptive nominee. Some Republicans have burned their party registration cards, declared they will do anything to block a Trump presidency.

Nebraska Senator Ben Sasse, he dropped this FaceBook bombshell writing, quote, "why shouldn't America draft an honest leader who will focus on 70 percent solutions for the next four years? You know, an adult?"

Joining me now, Leon Wolf, managing editor of the conservative website redstate.com.

Leon Wolf, nice to have you on.

LEON WOLF, MANAGING EDITOR, REDSTATE.COM: Thanks for having me, Brooke. Good to be here.

BALDWIN: All right, so you said you, you know, you could, Mr. Red State yourself, you know, you could be compelled to vote for Hillary Clinton over Trump, but it looks like Senator Sasse is trying to give, you know, you and perhaps other Republicans another option. What - what would you like that option to look like?

WOLF: Well, you know, let me say this. And Nia alluded to this in the last segment that you had. You know, the thing that Donald Trump did on Tuesday where he went out there on the day he was going to sew up the Republican nomination and said that Ted Cruz's father was involved in JFK's assassination because of something he read in "The National Enquirer"?

BALDWIN: In a tabloid.

WOLF: It's not - yes, it's not really the behavior of a mentally balanced individual. I mean it's something you would expect from somebody like a mental patient who's off their medication and lives at home with 20 cats.

BALDWIN: Wow.

WOLF: And really, the United States has a nuclear arsenal that's large enough to destroy all human life on the planet. So I feel like every person has a moral obligation to keep a person like that away from that finger on the trigger. So whatever that looks like for each different person is going to look different, but I personally won't be a party to it and I do hope that there will be a third party option that looks viable on that day.

BALDWIN: OK, let me loop back on that tabloid bit you mentioned in a second, because we have more in context with Wolf when he sat down with Mr. Trump. But let me throw this out there. I mean, obviously, we all know libertarian candidate Gary Johnson, he wants to be president. I actually talked to him recently. Let's just remind America who he is. Here was his pitch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARY JOHNSON, LIBERTARIAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Really made a name for myself being fiscally conservative. I may have vetoed more legislation than the other 49 governors in the country combined. But coupled with being fiscally conservative is the notion of being socially liberal. So in 1999, I was the highest elected official in the country to call for the legalization of marijuana. The fact that the drug war rages on, the fact that 20 million Americans, but for our drug laws, would otherwise be taxpaying, law abiding citizens. And you know what -

BALDWIN: OK.

JOHNSON: There is a very real Islamic terrorist threat, but let's stop with our military interventions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So that was a piece of our conversation. What about Gary Johnson? I mean could that be the third party candidate you and other Republicans could get behind or no?

WOLF: Well, you know, the libertarians haven't selected their candidate yet, of course. They have their convention over Memorial Day weekend. And, you know, Gary Johnson is a guy that I would look at. He would not be my preference because he's not pro-life. You know there is a libertarian named Austin Peterson who's running who is pro-life that would probably be more my speed. But I do think that, you know, for a conservative like myself, all of the good options have really left the building and closed the barn door behind them. So we're really looking now at less bad options and definitely, you know, Gary Johnson did, as he pointed out, have a pretty successful record as governor of New Mexico. If there's a libertarian who comes out who's pro-life, that's something I could definitely get behind.

But the reality is, the Republican Party does not any longer stand for reducing the size and scope of the federal government. If they did, they would have gotten behind Ted Cruz when that moment was available to them to stop Donald Trump and they wouldn't be embracing him now. So I think the libertarian party does -

BALDWIN: Who - who would you embrace? Who would fall in the category of less bad options in your opinion?

WOLF: You know, Gary Johnson will get a look. Austin Peterson will get a look. Whoever the libertarian is will get a look. If there's somebody - if it's Ben Sasse himself, that's somebody I would enthusiastically support. Or, you know, there may be yet another option.

BALDWIN: He says he's got a lot going on. He's got a wife. He's got kids. He's just the one who's saying, we should have another option.

WOLF: Right.

BALDWIN: Who else?

[14:20:00] WOLF: Right. Well, I feel like that's a song that we've probably heard before, but, you know, somebody like Rick Perry, who's a guy that I would enthusiastically support if he wants to come in off the sidelines. Really, the bottom line, we want to have an option on the ballot that is not Donald Trump, that also might not be Hillary Clinton.

BALDWIN: OK. Leon, before I let you go, I really wanted to ask you about Merrick Garland because you and I know a number of Republicans are saying we have to get him confirmed before, you know, a potential Hillary Clinton presidency, despite, though - I mean Mitch McConnell seems pretty steadfast in what he's been saying about no way. You tell me why you want this to happen

WOLF: Well, I mean, look, I consider it to be pretty much inevitable that Donald Trump is going to lose in November. I think that he will also lose the Senate and the GOP, as well. Merrick Garland is not the worst option that's available. Again, he's not a good option, but he is older probably than anyone Hillary Clinton would put forth and I think, quite frankly, it's at the time strategically we just need to take the less bad option that's available to us. Again, it's the same thing with the nomination. The good options are gone. Let's start looking at the least bad option that's available to us. And I think Merrick Garland is that option.

BALDWIN: Less bad. I'm hearing a theme from you. Is that really where we are? Less bad. Leon Wolf, thank you so much. Redstate.com. Come back.

WOLF: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Appreciate your perspective.

Coming up next here, 88,000 evacuees, 1,600 homes torched and little hope in sight as dozens of wildfires just continue to burn there. We'll talk to a man who was forced to make a harrowing escape by helicopter, taking only a duffel bag and his cat with him. Plus, the names are already starting to leak out, but thus far plenty

of thanks but no thanks. Will Donald Trump's hunt for a running mate be tougher than expected? We'll discuss those possibilities coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:26:10] BALDWIN: Massive wildfires, 49 of them, just ripping through beautiful Alberta, Canada, right now. Seven just absolutely burning out of control. A state of emergency has been declared. The scene, let me just show you the pictures, apocalyptic. Let me just pause for a second here and let the video speak for itself. Nearly 90,000 people have been impacted by these fires so far. And an entire city has evacuated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOANNE BATES, FORCED TO EVACUATE: Well, it's a disaster. And I find that it's not fair. They didn't really even let us take our things. And when we asked them, so we lost everything now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I am - you know, the whole - the people here are devastated. Everyone's devastated. The community is going to be devastated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Entire neighborhoods consumed by flames. We'll speak with a man who escaped in just a second, but let me just begin with CTV reporter Peter Akman.

And, Peter Akman, you are at an evacuation center. Tell me what people are telling you. How many people are there?

PETER AKMAN, CTV REPORTER: Well, we're at the main evacuation center. That's just south of where all those fires are burning. As you mentioned, seven out of control, completely out of control, and ripping towards Fort McMurray and through that area. We're hearing a lot of the main structures are burning down.

Here at the evacuation center in Lac la Biche, there are about 500 people who are staying here. Many others are being evacuated. Many thousands of others more south of here. The ones who are staying here, they say they have lost everything. And so the donations have been pouring in. Everything from diapers to dog food for people who have really escaped with their children, their pets and the clothes that they had on their backs.

A lot of people very frustrated, though, because as these fires were moving and we've been reporting about them moving through the area, they say they weren't given that much notice. And so all of a sudden the fires turned. It was on their community, on their home, on their school, on their hospital and they were forced to get out and flee with whatever they had. They were hoping that they would have a little bit more time, a little bit more notice and so they are here. They're gathering up what they can. Some are sleeping here. Others are just moving on to more southern destinations to wait out and see if their home is still standing at the end of this.

BALDWIN: That is Peter Akman standing at an evacuation center.

Let's go to a hotel where Peter Fortna is standing by. He evacuated Fort McMurray with just a duffle bag and your cat, who I see Sammy over your left shoulder there. I'm glad you two are OK. You are now in Edmonton, about a four, four and a half-hour drive away. How long have you been there? How bad was it when you left?

PETER FORTNA, ESCAPED WILDFIRES BY HELICOPTER: It was pretty bad. I've been here since 4:00 in the morning on Tuesday. Oh, he's - he's had enough, apparently. I got in at 4:00 in the morning on Tuesday, left Fort McMurray about 10:30 on - or, sorry, 4:00 in the morning on Wednesday. Left Fort McMurray at 10:30 on Tuesday.

BALDWIN: Do you have any idea about your home, your neighborhood?

FORTNA: Just what people have been saying, there hasn't been any official reports yet, but - so nobody really knows for certain. I mean we're all - we're all hopeful. But then again, the pictures I've seen, I'm pretty sure my neighborhood is - is one of the ones that's - that's gone now.

[14:30:12] But - but, you know, it's just - thankfully everybody's