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Dr. Drew
Did Prince Battle Drug Addiction? Prince had RX Opioid Medications on Him; No Valid RX Found Yet for Prince`s Painkillers; A Mother`s Anguish for Brain Dead Child; Toddler Declared Brain Dead; Mom Says He`s Still There and He`s Responsive; Parent`s Fighting to Keep Their Baby On Life Support; Minister Mom Pepper Sprayed by Chicago Cops; Police Seen Smiling as Daughters Watched; Catherin Brown`s 911 Calls Reveal She was Scared and Felt Threatened. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired May 05, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:00:00] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: The doctor`s job is not to accommodate the special demands, the doctor`s job is to see through all
that BS and mandate proper care.
PINSKY: I find it concerning that Prince is in control. Prince should not be in control.
PINSKY: There`s something terribly wrong about this. It`s again special people getting special care. Have we not learned anything from Conrad
Murray?
PINSKY: The person with the sick brain was dictating care. It should never, ever happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So what killed Prince? The wrong combination of prescription drugs, addiction, inner circle of yes folks, all of the above? I think so.
I`ve got a lot of questions and a lot of concerns. Joining me guy I know that when seen criminal defense attorney to the Cochran firm, Jasmine
Simpkins, Senior Producer, hiphollywood.com, Leo Terrell, attorney, and via skype, Michael Levine, former Undercover Agent with the DEA, author of
"Deep Cover." Now the Minnesota attorney for Howard and Andrew Kornfeld. Howard Kornfeld was the addiction physician who was send out, who was
trying to get out to meet with Prince to try to do something for him. The attorney was asked why he was representing them. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did they feel the need to hire you because of the investigation? They wanted somebody here? What was their reasoning to
reach you the to you?
WILLIAM MAUZY, ATTORNEY FOR Dr. HOWARD KORNFELD AND SON: He was taken into custody and interviewed and told there was a criminal investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Michael, I want to ask you first. Was there anything unlawful about what appeared to have happened with this physician and his son from
your perspective? The inner circle of Prince calls out to them. The doctor can`t get there. He sends his son. The son is alleged to have some
Buprenorphine or Suboxone in his backpack. Had they done anything wrong?
MICHAEL LEVINE, UNDERCOVER AGENT, DEA, RETIRED: Not a thing. As a matter of fact, through my five decades of draining and experience, it`s
foretelling things to come. This is going to happen a thousand times over. The local investigator charged with the investigation in a recent news
interview, told me all I need to know about the direction of this case. He said it in cop talk. He likened the Prince investigation to a 10,000-piece
puzzle. Well, that tells me that those 10,000 pieces are informants, people that they are going to flip. people like this individual who was
caught with Suboxone on him, which is a crime. He`d better have his ducks in order to justify having Suboxone on him.
PINSKY: I want to interrupt you. Anahita, is there any way he can justify or has he broken a law? That young man -- who is the son of a doctor who
runs a treatment program, the sun on is essentially a marketing person, not a clinical person -- in his backpack is a narcotic. He`s taking it across
state lines presumably with the intent to administer. What does that mean?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: It`s a very complicated situation. I don`t think he`s out of the blue. I think it`s good that he hired a defense
attorney. Because it is illegal for anyone to take drugs across state lines to get to somebody else. Even doctors can`t do it unless they are
licensed in that particular state. Minnesota has a Good Samaritan Law that has an exception that you won`t be prosecuted for a drug crime if you call
911. Obviously they want to promote the public policy of people calling 911 to help people that overdosing on drugs, but there`s an exception to
that. If that person is being compensated or expects to be compensated, then the Good Samaritan Law doesn`t apply. And this doctor is from Marin
County, California. That`s where I grew up. It`s a very wealthy county in California. So I suspect he was getting compensated a lot to be doing
this.
PINSKY: Jasmine.
JASMINE SIMPKINS, SENIOR PRODUCER, HIPHOLLYWOOD.COM. It just all smells shady to me. Why was he the one that called 911. There`s people at
Prince`s home I`m sure. This man just gets there and he`s the one that calls 911? It all just seems so suspect and shady. I feel like in Leo`s
words, "Shame on you." Shame on his dad for allowing him. Dad, you`re the doctor, not your son. If you can`t make it, do not send your son who is
not a medical professional in that capacity.
LEO TERRELL, ATTORNEY: You have people -- he`s a mule. He`s a mule. He is transporting drugs to another state. And this is why the federal
government is involved. Let me tell you right now, you hire an attorney because there is potential evidence against you. The officers are trying
to incriminate you and that`s why that attorney is being hired. But this guy is a mule for purposes of transporting drugs across state lines and
being compensated for it. He`s looking at federal charges.
PINSKY: Really? But I think there`s a Good Samaritan Law that protects him because the intent was to treat, not intoxicate.
[19:05:01] SEDAGHATFAR: But he called 911 and that`s the Good Samaritan Law.
PINSKY: But the guy is dead and then he calls 911.
TERRELL: That`s right.
SEDAGHATFAR: I don`t think that`s going to even matter. I think the point was, was he being compensated? Yes. I guarantee you there was a financial
arrangement involved. Why else would they go to California to get this doctor from Marin County? There was a rehab facility less than four miles
away from Prince`s home?
PINSKY: Let me show you. I have a map of the distance from Paisley Park to two inpatient treatment programs. These are top notch. This is the
Hazelton Betty Ford Centers. One is an hour, hour and a half away, that`s in traffic. The other one is less than 30 minutes away from his house. He
is right around the corner from world class addiction treatment. Now, I am not prepared to say that Prince is actually a drug addict. I have not seen
the lifelong arc of progression that I`m accustomed to seeing with addiction. I`m going to talk to a recovering addict after the break and
see what he thinks about it. I certainly see dependency. I certainly see the need for professional structured intervention but I don`t know it was
addiction. You were nodding your head, Leo.
TERRELL: I agree with you. There`s so many questions out there that hasn`t been answered and we`re still going through an investigation process. Let
me tell you right now, when an attorney is involved and he`s providing a platform of speaking on behalf of these two guys, there is evidence of some
type of criminal misconduct. We just don`t know it at this point.
PINSKY: Normally if I were those guys, I should have put on a --
TERRELL: He never talked to the police at all and that`s why the attorney is providing cover.
SEDAGHATFAR: I think it`s interesting now that you pointed that out, but it was the sun that called 911. I`m wondering now, did he call an attorney
first? Did he have someone that advised him perhaps maybe you should call 911, maybe they knew about this Minnesota law? It does sound a little
suspect
SIMPKINS: Absolutely. I think they were well aware of what the laws were in the state of Minnesota and he knew if at any point something happened of
this magnitude, you should call the police. I think they already knew ahead of time.
TERRELL: I think that this young man called 911 after the fact. This is what you call a lawyer`s creation of a story to justify his misconduct.
PINSKY: Yes.
TERRELL: This guy is a mule.
PINSKY: So again, you don`t take issue with Leo when he says stuff like this. Me, you take off after me. I want to talk to another attorney.
This gentleman if I can get his information up there, I want to introduce him properly. This is John Tiemessen, an attorney who specializes in
malpractice and licensing. John, my question to you, it`s a pretty straightforward question, but it`s a complex question. Are there laws
violated when one doctor who is certified to give Suboxone for drug withdrawal, but not licensed to practice in Minnesota -- this is the doctor
from California -- who allegedly seems to be having the intent of directing the care of a physician with a license in Minnesota but no certification --
to my estimation -- to administer Suboxone, do they have problems?
JOHN TIEMESSEN, MALPRACTICE ATTORNEY: They do have problems. I believe that they`re skirting around in a gray area here. Essentially what the
doctor in California who is apparently Suboxone certified and has the special DEA license to prescribe Suboxone to his patients, and what he is
going to claim, is that he was using the Minnesota doctor essentially as a practice extender. And --
PINSKY: And the son trafficking the drug out there to extend the practice, is that an issue?
TIEMESSEN: The son is acting as an administrative capacity for the clinic itself. It is going to be very dependent on the prescription and how that
was dealt with the Suboxone. It is highly regulated by the DEA. You cannot prescribe Suboxone with just a DEA license. You have to have a
special -- it`s called a Data 2000 Number. The Drug Addiction and Treatment Act of 2000. You have to have special certification in order to
prescribe it. So what we have here is sort of a partnership, for lack of a better term, between a Data 2000 certified doctor who is then trying to
have an interstate practice extension relationship with a non-Data 2000 certified doctor.
TERRELL: This is not gray, this is black. I`ll tell you why. This doctor in California doesn`t have the legal authority to practice in Minnesota, so
he cannot direct someone in Minnesota when he`s not authorized to practice in Minnesota. It`s not gray, it`s black.
SEDAGHATFAR: He doesn`t want to lose Prince as a patient.
PINSKY: And why didn`t he just go to Hazelden which is right around the corner. Next up Prince had prescription medication on his person when he
was found dead. What does that mean? That`s to come.
Later, a mother says her brain dead child is alive. Physicians, of course, do not agree with that. We have heartbreaking video. Back after this.
[19:10:15] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: this was an intervention being waged by Prince`s camp. But they made the first call Wednesday night and that he was supposed to
see this local doctor on Thursday morning. Obviously, we know now that he passed away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kornfeld`s attorney described the plan as a life-saving mission.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is almost deja vu with Michael Jackson`s death. When you think about a performer who died at the hands of a doctor and
someone who was giving them drugs.
PINSKY: Have we not learned from Conrad Murray. The outcomes of special care for special people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who was providing these drugs? Who was getting them filled? And who should`ve stopped it?
PINSKY: If rather than getting special treatment, having someone that is a non-clinician shuttle medicines across the country to be deployed for
unclear reasons, it is a set up for a bad outcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: It`s been two weeks since Prince was found dead, but exactly what killed him, we don`t know yet. It`s not a mystery to me because I just see
every day. It`s the opiate and the benzodiazepine story. It`s the overprescribing of oral opiate pain medication, 80 to 90 percent of the
opiates prescribed on earth are prescribed in this country, 81 percent of the Percocet between 1991 and 2013, 81 percent of what`s prescribed on the
planet was prescribed in this country.
Back with Anahita, Jasmine, Leo and Michael. Joining us, Ryan Donnelly, he`s a recovering opiate addict, founder of freefromhell.com
@opiaterecovery social network. Now, Ryan, I want to get from you, you and I have not discussed this situation yet, but I want to know what your
instinct about Prince is. Do you think he`s a bona fide drug addict or someone who was just a chronic abuser of drugs?
RYAN DONNELLY, RECOVERING OPIATE ADDICT: From the allegations that I have seen, I can`t say that he is a chronic abuser. I think that he was put on
the medication for his injury. You know better than I do, once you get on the medication, it`s hard for people to get off. They get dependent on it.
PINSKY: So, Ryan, I`m going to stop you. Do you notice the language Ryan is using here? He is saying -- he is telling you that he doesn`t see what
I don`t see, which is a lifelong progression and consequences and all the usual manifestations of addiction. What Ryan said was that he got put on
these things by a doctor. He gets dependent and something cycles out. That`s a problem. It may be addiction, but it`s different. Ryan,
different than from what suffered from, right?
DONNELLY: The difference in my eyes between dependency and addiction is you`re prescribed medication and you take it as prescribed, your body
becomes dependent on it. For me, I wasn`t prescribed it, I started abusing it and it completely took over my life.
SEDAGHATFAR: So the description is what differentiates between being an abuser and an addict? Can you explain that? I don`t get it. I really
don`t get the distinction.
PINSKY: An abuser -- user and abuser is somebody using the drugs along the way that are not useful, that are not safe, just to get high. Somebody who
then develops tolerance and withdrawal is now dependent. A non-addict will stop that drug and be able to stay stopped without any specialized
treatment. An addict will always go back. They`ll be driven back. The disease is always active and there will be progression over time. The
dependent person may just stabilize. Ryan, let`s also talk about how easy it is for people to hide opiates and opiate addiction until it spirals.
DONNELLY: Well, that`s probably the hardest part about this whole epidemic is that there are people in everyday life that you are walking by on the
street that are addicted to these drugs and you would never know. I speak to thousands of people a year that are from all walks of life. The notion
that somebody is in a back alley getting high, that`s long gone.
PINSKY: Long gone.
DONNELLY: There`s people in the corporate world that are using these drugs, people in sales that feel like they are dependent on these drugs to even
work.
PINSKY: That`s right.
DONNELLY: To be social. They feel like if they come off these drugs they can`t be social.
PINSKY: And who`s supplying the drugs, Ryan?
DONNELLY: It`s the doctors.
That`s right. Jasmine.
SIMPKINS: That`s your people, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes, my peers.
SIMPKINS: Is it at all possible for anyone, someone like Prince, to have gone from dependency to abuse? Is it safe to say--?
PINSKY: Well, to addiction.
SIMPKINS: To addiction, yes.
PINSKY: He might have been an addict, but to have been using it all those years and not exploded and not progressed the way that you normally see
with addiction, it`s pretty unusual. It`s possible. If I were seeing Prince today alive on that last day, I`d put him in a facility and treat
him as though he were an addict until I knew he wasn`t. You know what I`m saying. The better part of valor is to give him comprehensive care and if
he ends up reconstituting and thriving and I don`t see evidence of addiction I`m looking for. I might change his treatment.
TERRELL: You know, Dr. Drew, everybody was shocked by Prince`s death, and I`ll tell you why. He just mentioned people walk day to day in this
condition. You know what, and he was talking about the corporate people, the celebrities. All those people who are wealthy are able to do this day
to day and we`re not aware of it. We were totally caught off guard with Prince. Now we learn that people who have the money, who are insulated,
are protected can get away for this drug habit day in and day out.
PINSKY: Insurances pay for it every day. You don`t need any money to do this. It`s our system is set up -- listen, you guys, do you know that
doctors get prosecuted criminally for inadequate treatment of pain. That`s where a lot of the energy came from. Now we have something called patient
satisfaction surveys. If patients aren`t happy, you`re not going to keep your job. Ryan, were you happy when you were treated for your drug
addiction?
DONNELLY: Was I happy when I got treated?
PINSKY: Would you have filled out a patient satisfaction statement with five smiley faces?
DONNELLY: I didn`t actually go through that. I went through Salvation Army, a totally different ball game. What you`re saying, I completely
agree with. But all the ratings on line now, a doctor has to watch their butt. Because if they don`t give the patient what they want, they`re going
to get a bad review online. And then people are going to look at those reviews and see the doctor as being bad or not up to par. But it`s not
fair to the doctor because he`s doing what he`s supposed to be doing.
[19:20:15] And then you guys They can go to an attorney, go to the state board, complain and get action.
SEDAGHATFAR: But that`s not fair, he was getting special care. What you call substandard --
PINSKY: I understand. I get your point. I`m just making a point why we have such a mess on our hands. I`m wondering, Michael, if you have an
opinion about this.
LEVINE: Yes. What you`re not talking about is that a lot of doctors are so afraid of prosecution that in midstride with people already addicted,
genuinely, to address pain issues, they will drop them. And many of these people, and I speak from personal experience, are forced to address their
pain by going to the street.
PINSKY: Well, they`re not forced, it`s just axiomatic that an addict has to go somewhere to get his or her drug and the cheapest and best place is
heroin. And that`s where our heroin epidemic is coming from. Rather than calling the patient in and saying we`ve got a deal with this, we`ve
inadvertently caused a second problem, it`s called addiction. I didn`t mean it, you didn`t mean it, but now we have to deal with it. As opposed
to being cut off as bad patients. Physicians are scared to death that they`re going to be accused of overprescribing, so now we have another
problem on our hands.
SIMPKINS: And death is a great word because people are dying as a result.
SEDAGHATFAR: What`s the solution? So is there a middle ground? What would you suggest?
PINSKY: Middle ground is talking about this. I`ve been talking about this for five years. And you heard me talk about this many, many times. But
the fact that it takes a tragedy like this, conversations like this to raise awareness, patients, us, we are all patients, we need to not go to
the doctor and demand medication. It`s a huge mistake. If you have a prescription for an opiate pain medication, or a benzodiazepine, anxiety or
sleep medication, if it`s going for longer than two weeks it should only be done so if it`s extremely carefully managed and clearly warranted.
I have to take a break. Physicians declared a toddler brain dead but his parents are fighting to keep him on life support. You`ll hear from them.
Still to come, caught on tape, Chicago police pepper spray a mother in front of her children. The cops think it`s funny. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[19:26:22] JONEE FONSECA, ISRAEL`S MOTHER: Hi.
Say hello.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): 2-year-old Israel Stinson loves to talk and laugh. About a month ago, Israel was rushed to the hospital during an
asthma attack. He was transferred from UC Davis to Kaiser Permanente in Roseville where he was declared brain dead. His parents are fighting to
keep him alive.
FONSECA: Israel, you`ve got to stop fooling everybody. How long is it going to take, huh?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): This is the moment they say they knew he wasn`t brain dead. What appears to be a slight flinch to his mom`s
tickles.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the determination of brain deaths, it`s not a simple yes or no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): But Israel`s parents are holding on to hope waiting to hear this little voice once again.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Oh, my god, that is so bad. But in fact physicians have declared 2-year-old Israel Stinson brain dead. The toddler`s parents insist he`s
alive. They posted this home video on YouTube, claiming it proves their point.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FONSECA: Israel, baby, mommy`s here. I`m going to tickle you one more time. Do it one more time. Do it one more time. There you go. There you
go. Israel. His blood pressure is going up. Oh, you can hear mommy and you can feel mommy, huh? Israel, you`ve got to stop fooling everybody.
How long is it going to take, huh? I know you`re going to come out of this, baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Wow. Back with Anahita and Leo, joining us vin Skype, Gina Louden, Host America Trends, on U2 America, she is a prolife advocate. Anahita,
you and I have been here before you and I. Whether it`s Jahi. Was Jahi`s last name?
SEDAGHATFAR: Jahi Mcmath.
PINSKY: Jahi Mcmath or bobby Kristina Brown. Listen, I went over and over this. When somebody`s brain is gone, it is gone. Why is it different than
if I pull the heart and lung out and just had it as a physiological prep. Why do people not understand this is a prep just like that.
SEDAGHATFAR: For two reasons, I think people want to believe in miracles and then you look at videos like that where the child or individual react
to touch, people think it`s the brain, but it`s not a brain, it`s a reflex.
PINSKY: It`s the autonomic nervous system, it`s the body that is disconnected from a brain that is dead. A pediatric specialist that works
at the California hospital, where Israel is being treated, talked to a local CNN affiliate. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FONSECA: It can look like twitches, it can look like muscle contractions, but unfortunately those are just reflexes. They`re not coming from the
brain because in brain death there`s a cease of function. Unfortunately, it`s irreversible. It`s very sad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It`s very sad. Leo, it`s irreversible. What bothers me is, if I were working on that case I would see my job as getting those parents to
the place of acceptance. Them hanging on to something that will never happen, as it never happened in the history of mammalian biology -- will
never happen. Has never happened in the history of humanity, to allow them to sit and suffer with that for god knows how long, it would be -- I
couldn`t stand it.
TERRELL: Well, look Dr. Drew, I hate to disagree with you but you`re wrong. Not medically, but legally. Because that`s why this family is in Federal
Court. There are some states, and as a lawyer I`m looking at this, there are some states that say as long as there`s a heartbeat, that child is
alive.
PINSKY: So if I took the heart out and a lung out and put it in a jar, then we`re fine? We`re fine then?
TERRELL: I`m not going to challenge you medically, but I`m saying legally, that`s why that baby is still in the capacity she`s in right now because a
court has said no. As long as she has a heartbeat, they can pursue this. and that`s in New Jersey and that`s the law.
[19:30:00] PINSKY: Gina Loudon can you tell me what`s your opinion on this. What is a lie from what is not a lie? I understand that there`s legal
protection of life, I`m all for that, but this is a physiology prep.
GINA LOUDON, PRO-LIFE ADVOCATE: Well, brain death, as I understand it, is not a clinical diagnosis but rather a medical opinion. I understand they
have had three of those and this is a tremendously complicated situation. But Dr. Drew, this is a little bit personal for me. I actually adopted a
little boy who had down syndrome, he was on a feeding tube, he had failure to thrive. And they told me when I adopted him I was signing a death
certificate just so he would have parents on his death certificate.
PINSKY: Gina, I have to interrupt you. That is fantastically different than somebody coming and saying that is a dead person. That is somebody
who is going to die, in their opinion, as opposed to somebody who is dead. There`s an infinity difference between these two states. Infinity.
LOUDON: But the bottom line, Dr. Drew, and there are states that agree, and as your lawyer pointed out, the bottom line is it should be up to the
parents. It is not up to the state to decide --
PINSKY: You know what, I`m sympathetic to that. I`m sympathetic to that. I like the way Gina framed this. It`s about parenting rights, right?
TERRELL: It`s parenting rights and the law. You cannot -- your medical experience and expertise cannot trump the law. The law is very clear.
PINSKY: But here`s my problem. OK. You kind of missed it last time I stated it. The problem is getting these parents who were entitled to their
parenting privileges -- I believe in protecting those -- but the job of the professionals should be to get them to the point of acceptance of managing
reality on reality`s terms. Otherwise what are we doing, guys? Are we going to spend all of the medical resources we have on brain preps? Is
that what we`re going to do.
TERRELL: You give the assumption that there`s universal consensus on your opinion throughout this country. If so, why does New Jersey allow this to
happen.
PINSKY: I`m not saying they`ll be a universal opinion on what this is, I mean brain-dead.
SEDAGHATFAR: Three doctors examined this child. They went to three different courts in California, state courts. All the courts agreed that
the doctors used the right procedures, they followed the proper law and they all determined that this poor child is brain dead. I think that`s the
bottom line. Now, it will be interesting to see what this Federal Court does, because I think it will be ground breaking if this court actually
mandates this hospital and these doctors to perform these surgeries, to give him a feeding tubes, to give him medications. I think that will be
groundbreaking.
PINSKY: It`s so that he can be transferred.
TERRELL: So he can be transferred to New Jersey.
PINSKY: I bet they allow it
TERRELL: Why wouldn`t you allow it? It`s the law. I`m confused. The law says in New Jersey, let`s be clear. The law says as long as there`s a
heartbeat, the child is alive.
SEDAGHATFAR: They`re trying to get the court to tell these California doctors to perform the surgeries, give the medications so that the child
can be transported. That`s the issue.
TERRELL: what`s wrong with that? What`s the problem with that? I hope it`s not about money. Let`s face it, it sounds like money. It smells like
it`s about money.
PINSKY: I love what Leo is talking about, the universal truth. Listen, we are asked as physicians to make decision-making based on available
resources every day. That`s part of our responsibility is to make sure that we aren`t wasting resources. How is this not wasting resources? But
I understand. But I understand, I want to protect the patient parent privilege. My goal would be to get the parents to deal with reality.
Every medical decision has a cost -- whatever the hell. I`m behaving like people who respond to Donald Trump now. See how that works. He`d be a
good negotiator. But the point is -- forget it, let me go to break.
SEDAGHATFAR: Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: You got me.
SIMPKINS: I`ve never seen that.
PINSKY: We will hear from Israel`s parents. They`re locked in a battle in the courts over the fate of their son.
[19:40:12] And still to come, disturbing video of a mother allegedly attacked by police with pepper spray. Who`s right, who`s in the wrong.
We`ll have more after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:38:21] TEXT: Two-year-old Israel Stinson has been declared brain-dead by doctors in California. His parents say this whole video proves he is
alive.
FONSECA: You`ve got to move one more time. This time I want you to wake up, OK? This time I want you to wake up. It`s time for school, papa.
It`s time to go to daycare now.
There he goes, papa.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, he hears everything.
FONSECA: I know. I know you hear everything.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Israel. We love you so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I sat here complaining about similar, unrealistic ideas about Bobbi Kristina Brown. The brain is an organ like any other. It can die just the
way you can have your finger cut off, your kidneys can stop functioning, your brain can stop functioning. Once it does, if it really has stopped,
and again multiple physicians must be consulted, they are declared it`s no longer a functioning organ. And there is yet to be in human history a
nonfunctioning brain that began functioning. This child was declared brain dead in early April. His parents, as you see in that video, are insisting
he`s alive. They`re looking at bodily based reflexes. They`re saying that`s a sign of life. Let`s say this child were nearly brain dead and he
were to come back, it would be a catastrophe. None of us would want to come back with that kind of a brain injury. Here`s what they told local
CNN affiliate, KTXL and KCRA, watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FONSECA: He`s very much --
NATE STINSON, ISRAEL`S FATHER: Alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When a doctor says to you he`s gone, why not accept that?
FONSECA: Because there`s been plenty of cases where doctors have -- doctors are wrong every day. I understand that he`s -- you know, he`s not exactly
the same that we want him to be, but that doesn`t mean that he`s dead and that doesn`t mean that we have to let go and start planning a funeral.
STINSON: If he was your child, what would you do? We`re actually doing everything that we can as parents, also as Christians. Our belief is to
put this in God`s hands. And that`s what we`re basically doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: If it were my child, I would immediately accept reality and begin the grieving process, because it is torture to allow these parents to be
dragged through this. I`m back with Anahita, Leo and Gina. Gina, you know what I`m saying? Do people have to get helped along to get to an
understanding? They`d never seen this before. Physicians see this thousands of times, what brain death is, what death is, and people don`t
want to accept it.
LOUDON: You`re right, people do grieve differently, Dr. Drew. And this family is asking for two basic things. No major surgeries here. We`re
talking about putting in nutrition for the baby, because they have given him no food. So he`s virtually starving to death, which is not a pleasant
way to die. I can never understand why that medical decision is ever made, and to have him on a breathing tube. Those are minor things. The mother
is asking to give nutrients to her child maybe to get herself that time to grieve and get to the exact place you`re talking about. But the bottom
line is, Dr. Drew, this shouldn`t be up to you and I, this should be up to the parents.
PINSKY: She`s saying it should be up to the parents what decisions are made. Not only that, is should be up to the law, which is the point you
were making.
Right, and the law is the law, he should have the opportunity to go to New Jersey where these sorts of injuries, however you choose to define them,
are allowed to be sustained. Is that about right?
TERRELL: Right, and there`s no argument. The parental control and the fact that the law is the law in New Jersey and they have the right. I don`t
know why we`re arguing this point. Notwithstanding the evidence that you portrayed.
PINSKY: You`re going with the law.
TERRELL: I`m going with the law. Strictly with the law.
SEDAGHATFAR: There`s got to be an element of denial here. Just hearing these parents talk
PINSKY: An element? It`s heartbreaking denial.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right, and that`s what I`m wondering. Are there not any services, are there not any mental health professionals --
PINSKY: You`re making my point. Hold on, you`re making my point. The job of the professionals should be to bring these poor people to the point
where they`re understanding reality, not have them burning through their life. They`re going to stand by the bed of somebody that`s never going to
be OK.
TERRELL: Both of you guys are indicting every physician in New Jersey. They must all be nuts there.
PINSKY: No.
TERRELL: Yes, you are. Because apparently before they enacted that law in New Jersey, they talked to the medical profession there. And you guys are
indicting every doctor in New Jersey.
SEDAGHATFAR: But it`s never happened. I think it`s never happened. The law is the law.
PINSKY: I doubt physicians were enthusiastic about that law in New Jersey, I doubt it. Let`s go back to that, what did you call it, a cost benefit
analysis?
TERRELL: Yeah, a cost-benefit analysis.
PINSKY: Should every dime of health care be spent on sustaining people who are dead?
TERRELL: I think that`s an individual choice. OK. Who makes that choice, I don`t know? But I`m saying you and I do not have the right to tell that
family, hey, to pull the plug.
PINSKY: You do not have that right.
TERRELL: You do not have that right.
SEDAGHATFAR: I agree with you.
PINSKY: Next up, mom versus police. Dash cam video reveals a pepper spray incident that is making news. The woman at the center of that fight is
here with me. You`ll hear from her after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:47:29] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Shocking dash cam video shows two Chicago police officers pepper spraying Catherine Brown, then dragging her from the
car as her two small children watch from the back seat.
CATHERINE BROWN: They have beaten me with the sticks and hit me with their boots in my head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): What led up to this? Brown says she had honked at a police cruiser that was blocking her driveway.
BROWN: The lady officer jumps out of the car and said [BLEEP], move that [BLEEP] car back. It startled me. I`m like -- I reached for my license.
The other officer takes the gun and point it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): That`s when she backed out of the alley onto the main road.
BROWN: I come to a complete stop. Then she takes the car, rams it into me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Catherine Brown is a mother, she`s a pastor and she is now suing the two officers. Back with Anahita and Leo. Joining us via Skype, John
Cardillo, former NYPD police officer, host of the syndicated "John Cardillo Show." Take a look at this dash cam video from Catherine`s attorney, Ed
Fox. The officer using pepper spray on her and another officer appears to be laughing, Leo, is that what I`m seeing? Or is that grimacing? The
pepper spray also hit the baby-sitting in the back seat. John Cardillo, do you have a problem with any of this?
CARDILLO: Look, I don`t like to see the visual of the police officer laughing, but I also see a highly edited video and about 15 seconds of a
total incident. It`s a 3-year-old incident, 2013 I believe. A lawsuit`s now just being filed when Chicago is having a lot of problems. And there
is a sentiment against police. I`m going to wait and see all the evidence. Hear Chicago PD`s side before I indict anybody.
SEDAGHATFAR: I can`t see any way that you can justify that use of force. Dr. Drew, they terrorized this woman. They know she had two young children
in the car. She`s getting pepper sprayed. One of the officers is laughing. They drag her out of the car. They`re beating her, kicking here
while she`s on the ground. How can you justify that?
PINSKY: She made a mistake running, right Leo.
TERRELL: That was a mistake.
SEDAGHATFAR: She was scared, though. They had a gun to her head.
PINSKY: I`m not laying blame on the victim. I`m trying to look where her involvement is. There`s a mistake, you shouldn`t run. But she was already
in trouble.
TERRELL: She was already in trouble, but the question is that the appropriate response?
PINSKY: Right.
TERRELL: That`s the question. And I would ask John, don`t you see anything? Can`t you just admit tactically they`re wrong in the manner in
which they responded to the perceived threat?
CARDILLO: I think the biggest problem here was the way her exiting that alley and backing down that street like a bat out of hell --
SEDAGHATFAR: She had a gun pointed to her head, though, John. She had a gun pointed to her head. She panicked.
[19:50:15] CARDILLO: They`re uniformed police officers.
PINSKY: Hold on. Well, that`s easy for you to say. You about here`s Catherine, the woman in question here. She called 911 when the officers
first blocked her car. She had the wherewithal to call 911. One had his gun pointed at her and you can actually hear her children screaming in the
background. Here`s an edited version of that 911 call.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CATHERINE BROWN, MOTHER, PASTOR (via telephone): The police are harassing me and little children. In my driveway. They put their high beams on me
and my babies and threatened to mace me, for no reason at all. He got a gun out on me. He got a gun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: On the phone I have Catherine Brown, she`s the young lady in this video. Catherine, what was the original stop about?
BROWN: Well, let`s make it clear to all of America that this was not a stop. Let`s clear that up. That was the first lie that the officers told
the public.
PINSKY: Tell me what happened.
BROWN: I was on my way home from getting Pampers for the baby. And I`ve been going through this alley for many, many years. And there`s a blind
spot. The alley is a two-way alley. Someone could come in and someone could come out. I have asked previously in the past to get a stop sign
there, but that never happened. Now, being that I know people usually speed down that alley because I`ve been coming down that alley. I lived in
that same area and block for 41 years. I know coming through that alley I am to blow my horn before I even get into that turn way. And that`s why
you saw the officer slow down because they heard my horn. And that they even admitted that I was blowing my horn a lot. And that was true, to
alert whomever was coming around that corner. I had no idea that it would be police. All I know is that it`s a two-way alley. I`m coming home.
There is a blind spot, and I need to make anyone aware that I`m coming around the corner.
PINSKY: When did it get out of control? What happened?
BROWN: Once the officers and I both met head-on, bumper to bumper, it was a very calm situation. I was talking to the driver, which was Officer Lopez.
I waved to him and I said, hi. I live right here. And I was trying to go up to my driveway. Officer Lopez asked me one question, and that question
was, why did you have your bright lights on?
PINSKY: Catherine, I`ll stop you here and we`ll hear the rest after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[00:57:29] PINSKY: I`m back with Anahita, Leo, and John. Catherine Brown is also with us. She`s the woman who was pepper sprayed. She`s on the
phone. Catherine, did things get aggressive with these police officers?
BROWN: So the officer asked me about having my bright lights on. Then I turned them off. Then I thought he was getting ready to back up and just
let me in my driveway. But Officer Morsi jumped out of the passenger side in a road rage and called me a bitch. Bitch, move that fucking car bitch.
PINSKY: Whoa. One quick second there. And I hope somebody has their hand -- if that got through, I apologize to our viewers and listeners. Be that
as it may, they charge this woman a typical murder.
TERRELL: That a typical police trick. Tried to negate the legitimate charges that she had and overcharge her and spend her time in criminal
court. And those charges were dropped.
PINSKY: As far as the expletive and what that officer said to this woman, there were multiple complaints against these officers.
SEDAGHATFAR: Forty complaints between these two in the past. Why were they still part of this police department? And more importantly, what are they
doing now?
PINSKY: John, what about all this?
CARDILLO: Now look, 40 complaints in a busy command between two busy cops with years on is nothing. The way this woman drove down the street showed
disregard for her safety, her children`s safety, those officers had reasonable suspicion to fear --
SEDAGHATFAR: John, one complaint, two complaints, three complaints maybe you question that. 40 complaints between the two officers?
CARDILLO: Yes. That`s what happened when cops are active.
TERRELL: John, you see nothing wrong with their conduct? Nothing wrong with the profanity?
CARDILLO: Hold on, Leo, hold on, let me answer. I don`t like the laughing. I will say that they should have controlled the laughing better, the
situation better.
PINSKY: How about the f-bomb?
CARDILLO: Hold on a second. I didn`t hear it. But if it happened, unprofessional. We didn`t hear it. We`re getting her side of the story
and she`s suing the city.
PINSKY: Code of silence is still alive and well. Code of silence.
SEDAGHATFAR: It will be a punitive damage case, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: I just miss John so much. I`m glad he`s back. I`m upset that Leo didn`t shame John the way he --
SEDAGHATFAR: Or shame me.
PINSKY: You guys, thank you, John, thanks for joining us. Catherine, I have to go. I could listen to your story. It`s very compelling.
Unfortunately, we are out of time. Thank you guys for joining us, I appreciate it. DVR this program so you can watch us any time. We do thank
you for watching. Remember, we`re in our new time which is 4:00 pacific, 7:00 out in the east coast. Please stay with us and DVR us to not worry
about what time we`re on but do watches. Nancy Grace is up next.
END
