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Obama Delivers Commencement Address at Howard University; El Chapo Transferred to a Prison in Ciudad Juarez. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired May 07, 2016 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00] BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Inequality persists. Don't worry. I'm going to get to that. But I wanted to start class of 2016, by opening your eyes to the moment that you are in.

If you had to choose one moment in history in which you could be born and you didn't know ahead of time who you were going to be, what nationality, what gender, what race, whether you'd be rich or poor, gay or straight, what faith you'd be born into, you wouldn't choose 100 years ago.

You wouldn't choose the 50s or the 60s or the 70s, you would choose right now. If you had to choose a time to be, in the world of Lorena Handsburg, young, gifted, and black in America, you would choose right now.

I tell you all this because it's important to note progress because to deny how far we've come would do a disservice to the cause of justice.

To the legions of foot soldiers, to not only the incredibly accomplished individuals who have already been mentioned, but your mothers and your dads and grandparents and great-grandparents who marched and toiled and suffered and overcame to make this day possible.

I tell you this not to lull you into complacency, but to spur you into action because there's still so much work to do. So many more miles to travel and America needs you to gladly, happily take up that work.

You all have some work to do. So enjoy the party because you're going to be busy. Yes, our economy has recovered from crisis, stronger than almost any other in the world.

But there are folks of all races who are still hurting. Still can't find work that pays enough to keep the lights on. Still can't save for retirement. We've still got a big racial gap of economic opportunity.

The overall employment rate is 5 percent, but the black unemployment rate is almost 9. We've still got an achievement gap. Black boys and girls graduate high school and college at lower rates than white boys and white girls. Harriet Tubman may be going on the $20, but we've still got a gender gap when a black woman working full-time still earns just 66 percent of what a white man gets paid!

We've got a justice gap with too many black girls and boys pass through a pipeline from underfunded schools to overcrowded jails. This is one area where things have gotten worse.

When I was in college, about half a million people in America were behind bars. Today, there are about 2.2 million. Black men are about six times likelier to be in prison right now than white men.

Around the world, we've still got challenges to solve that threaten everybody in the 21st Century. Old scourges like disease and conflict, but also, new challenges from terrorism and climate change.

So make no mistake, class of 2016. You've got plenty of work to do. But as complicated and sometimes intractable as these challenges may seem, the truth is that your generation is better positioned than any before you to meet those challenges.

To flip the script. Now, how you do that, how you meet these challenges, how you bring about change will ultimately be up to you. My generation, like all generations, is too confined by our own spirits, too invested in our own biases.

[12:05:04]Too stuck in our ways to provide much of the new thinking that will be required. But us, old heads, have learned a few things that might be useful in your journey.

So with the rest of my time, I would like to offer some suggestions for how young leaders like you can fulfill your destiny and shape our collective future.

Bend it in the direction of justice and equality and freedom. First of all, and this should not be a problem for this group, be confident in your heritage, be confident in your blackness.

One of the great changes that's occurred in our country since I was your age is the realization, there's no one way to be black. Take it from someone who's seen both sides about whether I'm black or not.

The past couple of months, I've had lunch with the queen of England and hosted Kendrick Lamar in the oval office. There is no straight jacket. There is no constraints. There is no litmus test for authenticity.

Look at Howard. One things most folks don't know about Howard is how diverse it is. When you arrived here, some of you were like, they got black people in Iowa? But it's true!

This class comes from big cities and rural communities and some have crossed oceans to study here. You shatter stereotypes some of you come from a long line and some of you are the first in your family to graduate from college. You all talk different, you all dress different. You're Lakers fans, Celtics fans, maybe even and because of those who have come before you, you have models to follow.

You can work for a company or start your own. You can go into politics or run an organization that holds politicians accountable. You can write a book that wins the national book award or you can write the new run of Black Panther or like one of your alumni, you can go ahead and just do both.

You can create your own style, set your own standard of beauty, and embrace your own sexuality. Think about an icon we just lost, Prince. He blew up categories. People didn't know what Prince was doing and folks loved him for it.

You need to have the same confidence or as my daughters tell me all the time, you be you, daddy. Sometimes Sacha puts a variation on it. You do you, daddy. And because you're a black person doing whatever it is you're doing, that makes it a black thing! Feel confident.

Second, even as we each embrace our own beautiful, unique, and valid versions of our blackness, remember the tie that does bind us as African-Americans. And that is our particular awareness of injustice and unfairness and struggle.

That means we cannot sleepwalk through life. We cannot be ignorant of history. We can't meet the world with a sense of entitlement. We can't walk by a homeless man without asking why a society as wealthy as ours allows that state of affairs to occur.

[12:10:08]We can't just lock up a low-level dealer without asking why this boy, barely out of childhood, felt he had no other options.

We have cousins and uncles and brothers and sisters who we remember were just as smart and just as talented as we were, but somehow got ground down by structures that are unfair and unjust and that means we have to not only question the world as it is, and stand up for those African-Americans who haven't been so lucky.

Because, you've worked hard, but you've also been lucky. That's a pet peeve of mine. People who have been successful and don't realize they've been lucky. That God may have blessed them. It wasn't nothing you did.

So don't have an attitude. But we must also expand our moral imaginations to understand and empathize with all people who are struggling. Not just black folks who are struggling, the refugee, the immigrant, the rural poor, the transgender person.

And, yes, the middle-aged white guy, who you may think has all the advantages, but over the last several decades has seen his world upended by economic and cultural and technological change and feels powerless to stop it. You got to get in his head, too.

Number three, you have to go through life with more than just passion for change. You need a strategy. I'll repeat that. I want you to have passion. You have to have a strategy. Not just awareness, but action. Not just hashtags, but votes.

You see, change requires more than righteous anger. It requires a program and it requires organizing. The 1964 Democratic convention, Fatty Lou Hammon, 5'4" tall, gave a fiery speech on the national stage.

But then she went back to Mississippi and organized cotton pickers, and she didn't have the tools and technology where you can whip up a movement in minutes. She had to go door to door.

And I'm so proud of the new guard of black civil rights leaders who understand this. It's thanks in large parts of the activists of young people like many of you, from black Twitter to Black Lives Matter.

That America's eyes have been opened, white, black, Democrat, Republican, to the real problems in our criminal justice system. But to bring about structural change, lasting change, awareness is not enough.

It requires changes in law, changes in custom. If you care about mass incarceration, let me ask you how are you pressuring members of Congress to pass the criminal justice reform bill now pending before them?

If you care about better policing, do you know who your district attorney is? Do you know who your state's attorney general is? Do you know the difference? Do you know who appoints the police chief and who writes the police training manual?

Find out who they are, what their responsibilities are. Mobilize the community, present them with a plan, work with them to bring about change, and hold them accountable if they do not deliver.

Passion is vital, but you've got to have a strategy. And your plan better include voting, not just some of the time, but all of the time.

[12:15:06]It is absolutely true that 50 years after the Voting Rights Act, there are still too many barriers in this country to vote.

There are too many people trying to erect new barriers to voting. This is the only advanced democracy on earth that goes out of its way to make it difficult for people to vote. And there's a reason for that. There's a legacy to that.

But let me say this. Even if we dismantled every barrier to vote that alone would not change the fact that America has some of the lowest voting rates in the free world.

In 2014, only 36 percent of Americans turned out to vote in the midterms. Second lowest participation rate on record. Youth turnout, that would be you, was less than 20 percent. Less than 20 percent, four out of five, did not vote.

In 2012, nearly two in three Americans turned out and then in 2014, only two in five turned out. You don't think that made a difference in terms of the Congress I've got to deal with? And then people are wondering, well, how come Obama hasn't gotten this done? How come he didn't get that done? You don't think that made a difference? What would have happened if you turned out at 50, 60, 70 percent all across this country?

People try to make this political thing really complicated, like, well, what kinds of reforms do we need and how do we need to do that? You know what, just vote. It's math. If you have more votes than the other guy, you get to do what you want. It's not that complicated.

And you don't have excuses. You don't have to guess the number of belly jeans in a jar or bubbles on a bar of soap to register to vote. You don't have to risk your life to cast a ballot. Other people already did that for you.

Your grandparents, your great-grandparents might be here today. What's your excuse? When we don't vote, we give away our power. This enfranchises ourselves.

Right when we need to use the power we have. Right when we need your power to keep others from taking away the votes and the rights of those more vulnerable than you are, the elderly and the poor.

The formerly incarcerated trying to earn their second chance. You've got to vote all the time. Not just when it's cool, not just when it's time to elect a president. Not just when you're inspired. It's your duty.

Time to elect a member of Congress or a city councilman or a school board member or a sheriff, that's how we change our politics, by electing people at every level who are representative of and accountable to us.

It is not that complicated. Don't make it complicated. And finally, change requires more than just speaking out. It requires listening as well. In particular, it requires listening to those with whom you disagree and being prepared to compromise.

When I was a state senator, I helped pass Illinois' first racial profiling law. And one of the first laws in the nation requiring the videotaping of confessions in capital cases.

And we were successful because early on I engaged law enforcement. I didn't say, there's this -- you guys are so racist, you know, you need to do something. I understood, as many of you do.

That the overwhelming majority of police officers are good and honest and courageous and fair and love the communities they serve. And we knew there were some bad apples and that even good cops were the best of intentions, including, by the way, African-American police officers might have unconscious biases, as we all do.

[12:20:03]So we engaged and we listened and we kept working until we built consensus and because we took the time to listen, we crafted legislation that was good for police because it improved the trust and cooperation of the community. And it was good for the communities who were less likely to be treated unfairly. And I can say this unequivocally, without at least the acceptance of the police organizations in Illinois, I could never have gotten those bills passed.

It's very simple. They would have blocked them. The point is, you need allies in a democracy. That's just the way it is. It can be frustrating and slow. But history teaches us that the alternative to democracy is always worse. That's not just true in this country.

It's not a black or white thing. Go to any country where the give and take of democracy has been repealed by one party rule and I will show you a country that does not work and democracy requires compromise.

Even when you are 100 percent right, this is hard to explain sometimes. You can be completely right and you still are going to have to engage folks who disagree with you.

If you think that the only way forward to be as uncompromising as possible, you will feel good about yourself, you will enjoy a certain moral purity, but you're not going to get what you want.

And if you don't get what you want long enough, you will eventually think the whole system is rigged and that will lead to more cynicism, and less participation and a downward spiral of more injustice and more anger and more despair.

And that's never been the source of our progress. That's how we cheat ourselves of progress. You know, we remember Dr. King's soaring oratory, the power of his letter from Birmingham jail, the marches he led.

But he also sat down with President Johnson in the oval office to try to get a civil rights act and a voting rights act passed. And those two Seminole bills were not perfect, just like the emancipation proclamation was a war document as much as it was some clearing call for freedom.

Those mile posts of our progress were not perfect. They did not make up for centuries of slavery or Jim Crow or eliminate racism or provide for 40 acres and a mule. But they made things better.

And you know what, I will take better every time. I always tell my staff, better is good because you consolidate your gains and then you move on to the next fight from a stronger position.

Brittany Pacman (ph), a member of the Black Lives Matter Movement in Campaign Zero, one of the Ferguson protest organizers, she joined our task force of 21st Century policing. Some of her fellow activists questioned whether she should participate.

She rolled up her sleeves and sat at the same table with big city police chiefs and prosecutors and because she did, she ended up shaping many of the recommendations of that task force and those recommendations are now being adopted across the country. Changes that many of the protesters called for if young activists like Brittany had refused to participate out of some sense of ideological purity, those great ideas would have just remained ideas.

But she did participate, and that's how change happens. America is big and it is boisterous and it is more diverse than ever. The president told me that we've got a significant Nepalese contingent here at Howard.

I would not have guessed that right on. But it just tells you how interconnected we're becoming and with so many folks from so many places converging, we are not always going to agree with each other.

[12:25:08]Another Howard alum, as Sornell Hurston (ph) once said, this is a good quote here. Nothing that God ever made is the same thing to more than one person. Think about that.

That's why our democracy gives us a process designed for us to settle our disputes with argument and ideas and votes instead of violence and simple majority rule.

So don't try to shut folks out, don't try to shut them down, no matter how much you might disagree with them. You know, there's been a trend around the country, trying to get colleges to disinvite speakers with a different point of view or disrupt a politician's rally.

Don't do that. No matter how ridiculous or offensive you might find the things that come out of their mouths, because as my grandmother used to tell me, every time a fool speaks, they are just advertising their own ignorance.

Let them talk. Let the talk. If you don't, you just make them a victim and then they can avoid accountability. That doesn't mean you shouldn't challenge them. Have the confidence to challenge them, confidence in the rightness of your position.

There will be times when you shouldn't compromise your core values, your integrity. And you will have the responsibility to speak up in the face of injustice, but listen, engage.

If the other side has a point, learn from them. If they're wrong, rebut them, teach them, beat them on the battlefield of ideas, and you might as well start practicing now, because one thing I can guarantee you, you will have to deal with ignorance, hatred, racism, foolishness.

I promise you, you will have to deal with all of in every stage of your life that may not seem fair, but life has never been completely fair. Nobody promised you a crystal stamp.

And if you want to make life fair, then you've got to start with the world as it is. So that's my advice. That's how you change things. Change isn't something that happens every four years or eight years.

Change is not placing your faith in any particular politician and then just putting your feet up and saying, OK, go. Change is the effort of committed citizens, who hitch their wagons to something bigger than themselves and fight for it every single day.

That's what Thurgood Marshal understood. A man who once walked this yard, graduated from Howard law, went home to Baltimore, started his own law practice. He and his mentor, Charles Hamilton Houston rolled up their sleeves and they set out to overturn segregation.

They worked through the NAACP. Filed dozens of lawsuits, fought dozens of cases. And after nearly 20 years of effort, 20 years, Thurgood Marshal ultimately succeeded in bringing his righteous cause before the Supreme Court and securing the ruling in Brown versus Board of Education that separate could never be equal.

Twenty years! Marshal, Houston, they knew it would not be easy. They knew it would not be quick. They knew all sorts of obstacles would stand in their way. They knew that even if they won, that would just be the beginning of a longer march to equality, but they had discipline.

They had persistence. They had faith and a sense of humor, and they made life better for all Americans. I know you graduates share those qualities. I know it because I've learned about some of the young people graduating here today.

[12:30:02] There's a young woman named Sierra Jefferson (ph) who's graduating with. And I'm just going to use her as an example. I hope you don't mind, Sierra. Sierra grew up in Detroit and was raised by a poor single mom who worked seven days a week in an auto plant.

For a time, her family found themselves without a place to call home. They bounced around between friends and family who might take them in. By her senior year, Sierra was up at 5:00 a.m. every day, juggling homework, extracurricular activities, volunteering, all while taking care of her little sister. But she knew that education was her ticket to a better life.

So she never gave up. Pushed herself to excel. This daughter of a single mom who works on the assembly line turned down a full scholarship to Harvard to come to Howard.

And today like many of you, Sierra is the fist in her family to graduate from college. And then she says she's going to go back to her hometown, just like Thurgood Marshall did, to make sure all the working folks she grew up with have access to the health care they need and deserve. As she puts it, she's going to be a change agent.

She's going to reach back and help folks like her succeed. And people like Sierra are why I remain optimistic about America. Young people like you are why I never give in with despair. James Baldwin once wrote, not everything that is based can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced.

Graduates, each of us is only here because someone else faced down challenges for us. We are only who we are because someone else struggled and sacrificed for us. That's not just Thurgood Marshall's story or Sierra's story or my story or your story. That is the story of America. The story whispered by slaves in the Cotton Fields. The song marches and some the dream of a king in the shadow of Lincoln, the prayer of immigrants who set out for a new world. The roar of women demanding the vote. The rallying cry of workers who built America, the GIS who bled overseas for our freedom.

Now it's your turn and the good news is your ready. And when your journey seems too hard and when you run into a chorus of cynics who tell you that you're being foolish to keep believing or that you can't do something or that you should just give up, or that you should just settle, you might say to yourself a little phrase that I've found handy these last eight years. Yes, we can.

Congratulations class of 2016. Good luck. God bless. God bless the United States of America. I'm proud of you.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: All right, what a powerful moment. The President of the United States there delivering the commencement address to the class of 2016 at Howard University. Historically black university there in Washington, D.C.

Also, today, receiving his own doctorate, of science, an honorary degree, the doctorate of science there. Moving people to tears, particularly the young lady, Sierra, who he called out there, talking about how she represents a struggle that her mother, her single mom, in Detroit endured to make sure that she had this opportunity and that this young lady would turn down a full scholarship ride to Harvard, to attend Howard university, at Cornerstone of greatness there.

And you heard from the President, reminding the audience there and reminding audiences who are watching this graduation everywhere of the greatness that has -- that Howard University has produced, from Thurgood Marshall to Zora Neale Hurston, the list goes on Ralph Bunche, first Nobel peace prize winner. You heard from the President there.

I have with me also a Howard alum. I'm a Howard alum. Victor Blackwell, a Howard alum. Joe Johns is also joining us from Washington, D.C. with your own connections to Howard University. Because, I know, Joe, we've say each other at various Howard events there.

So I think Howard University would say you two are a son of the Mecca there. All right, Victor, you first. You know, did the President talked about a number of things. As in most commencement addresses, it is to inspire, to challenge the graduating class. To also give them some advice on life. He did all of that and also reflected on his own life and change that he has seen in 30 years challenging people.

[12:35:06] If you think there has not been change, just look at all these things that have happened in my 30 years. But the challenge to you is to be an agent of change. To take it further.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: And he started with pairing, you know, his experience, when he graduated in 1983, and current political state. And the discussion of America is a better place now than when I graduated. Not so subtle swipe at make America great again, quite possibly.

WHITFIELD: Right. And saying there were 10 percent, you know, blacks graduating from college. The number was 10 percent when he was graduating from university. But now it is 20 percent.

BLACKWELL: And, you know, one thing that really stood out to me, he said that race relations are better, but his election did not hasten some post-racial America, which was the discussion back in 2011, '8, and '9.

WHITFIELD: Right.

BLACKWELL: And he says, of course, there are still problems that have to be dealt with, a nod to Black Lives Matter movement. But one of the points, and he gave out four here of how to get the work done that needs to be done saying that you have to do more than just highlight the problem. You have to organize. You have to vote. You have to know who the leaders are in your community, who make these changes that you want to see happen. And then hold them accountable. If they don't do it, vote them out.

WHITFIELD: And voting was big. That was a big message, Joe. He said, you know what, its one thing, like you just underscored, Victor, to make noise to say, I oppose, I don't like an idea or a philosophy, but it's another to know who the attorney general is. You know, to know who the director is, who's making changes or imposing legislation at a police department that you have to do your research. You have to have a strategy. You can't just have passion, he said.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. And I think one of the most interesting things here in some ways, we may have got an preview, if you will, on the role of this President in the coming general election debate.

It was pretty clear that he was making a clarion call there to African-American voters and also tying his legacy to it. You know, you heard there at the very end, he talked a little bit about one of his campaign slogans, but the one that came to mind most was change you can believe in, which was something we heard again and again in 2008.

And he asked the audience, well, if you say to yourself, why didn't Obama get that done, he said, the answer is you've got to vote. Because if you have enough votes, you get to decide.

So I thought that was an interesting thing where he was sort of tying in his legacy with the need for African-Americans to vote. And it's something we could expect to see coming this fall, especially with this President now over that 50 percent threshold on approval ratings, suggesting that he will be out there, helping the Democratic nominee in trying to get elected.

WHITFIELD: And while this isn't the first time that the Barack Obama has been on this campus, he was there in 2007, as senator, Barack Obama his message there was, I'm not running because I want to make history, but I want to help change course. We heard a very similar message from President Obama there today, talking about changing course and imposing that challenge on this class, that you need to find your purpose, you cannot be an observer, but you have to be an active participant.

BLACKWELL: Yeah, he said, and I wrote it down here, you can't just sleepwalk through life with some sense of entitlement. And he said, once you find out that there are people, and we all know that there are people who need advocates, it's not just African-Americans who need that advocacy. He pointed out the transgender community, and said the middle-aged white guy who has seen his life and his world turned upside down economically.

WHITFIELD: The social change.

BLACKWELL: With the social change across the country. So the President pointing out here and starting with appreciate and be confident in your blackness, but following that up with, many communities need advocacy, and you should, if you believe you should go in that direction, go confidently in that direction, not just for the black community, but lots of communities across the country.

WHITFIELD: And a fitting message for Howard University. Historically black college and university, but at the same time, it is a global campus.

BLACKWELL: Yeah.

WHITFIELD: You and I talked about that earlier. People from all over. You discovered that as a student there, that people are from Nigeria, they are from the Philippines, they are from all walks here in the United States of America and it was a global message we heard from the President of the United States today.

Thanks so much, Victor Blackwell and Joe Johns, Washington. Appreciate it.

JOHNS: Sure.

[12:39:37] WHITFIELD: And we'll be right back in a moment with some breaking news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back. This breaking news about the notorious drug king pen known as El Chapo. CNN has learned that he was transferred to a prison in Ciudad Juarez Mexico this morning.

CNN's Nick Valencia has been following the story. He joins us by phone. So Nick, what can you tell us about this transfer and what means ultimately to the potential prosecution of El Chapo, whether it be just in Mexico or perhaps even potentially in the United States of America?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're hearing from a senior Mexican federal law enforcement source that Jaquin "El Chapo" Guzman the most notorious drug trafficker in the world was transferred very, very early this morning from the Altiplano Penitentiary in Altiplano Juarez where he had been held to a penitentiary in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico.

We're told from the source that this is due to the proximity to the United States, this is part of the extradition process, and this will make it easier and take more steps towards that extradition process to the U.S. we know that El Chapo is currently facing charges in seven states in the United States, among them, California and San Diego, also in El Paso, Texas, right across the border from Ciudad Juarez, as well as Chicago, Illinois.

We had heard in the past that presumably El Chapo would first go and be extradited to Chicago because they had witness testimony that could put his hands there on the drugs that were traffic to Chicago. There's no timeline so far. We're not hearing a timeline from this senior Mexican federal law enforcement source, but we are being told that very, very early this morning, according to local reports about 2:00 a.m. local time, that El Chapo was transferred from just outside of Mexico city to Ciudad Juarez there in Mexico on the border there with the united states.

What I find interesting, Fredricka, is where he was held in that penitentiary was the equivalent of a supermax in Colorado. It was the most secure prison in all of Mexico despite that El Chapo was able to escape from that prison, having said that, he's now being transferred to another penitentiary, we can only assume that he's under heavy watch, heavy security, but the prison where he was being held just outside of Mexico city, that was the most secure prison in all of Mexico.

[12:45:00] Now we can only assume he's in a prison that's not as secure, but, of course, being watched, very, very tightly by Mexican security officials. Fredricka?

WHITFIELD: So, I wonder and Nick, help us better understand that. Especially when you say, you know, if he was being held in the equivalent of a supermax, we know he escaped and then that led to that incredible global search for him, only for him to be, you know, not too far away, in a different, you know, province, so to speak, of Mexico but still in the country.

And now he's gone to this other facility of Ciudad Juarez, and you said it's less secure. Help us understand the logic behind why he would be at this new prison, then.

VALENCIA: Well, we can only assume that it has too with proximity. El Paso of course, you know, or Ciudad Juarez that you said right across the boarder just less than two miles across the border from El Paso. And this is part of that extradition process.

Logically speaking, it really doesn't make that much sense to transfer him from a really maximum secure prison to one that is not as secure. But, you know, they were taking precautions and taking steps and have been shuffling them around. They were shuffling him from cell to cell within the Altiplano penitentiary to try to avoid another embarrassing escape by El Chapo.

We don't know how long he will be held in prison in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico. That timeline has not been mentioned to me, but we can only assume, Fredricka, that he is being closely, closely watched and monitored by not just prison officials, but higher officials in the Mexican government. They don't want another incident like they had last summer.

WHITFIELD: Right, that was hugely embarrassing. Nick, thank you so much. Don't go far. We're going to bring in our legal guys, as well. Avery Friedman and Richard Herman are with me right now. Yes?

AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Yes.

WHITFIELD: All right, there they are. OK, got you. All right, very good. So Richard, Nick did a great job explaining that they would move him from a prison where he managed to escape, even though they've been moving him around from cell to cell, to continue to try to, you know, best secure him, but he would be moving to or he has been moved to a location that's just over the U.S. border in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico.

What's your best bet on how long he would stay there, potentially, before he could potentially be transferred to the United States? Extradited?

RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, Fred, I think this moves ridiculous.

WHITFIELD: You do?

HERMAN: I mean, to say its closer to the United States and put him in a less secure facility is absurd. So I wouldn't be surprised if he breaks out of this one. But the extradition process has to take place. And there's really only two grounds to challenge it.

One, you're not who you say they are. And he is El Chapo, so that's gone. And two, the sentence he would incur in the United States is so shocking to the Mexican government that they wouldn't release him into that jurisdiction. Well, it's not. He's going to be charged with several drug crimes and the crimes and sentencing in the United States is similar to that in Mexico.

So therefore, he will be extradited. There are treaties. Mexico will honor the treaty. The question is, is that process over? Has the challenge already been determined? And if so, Fred, he'll be transferred immediately by. But this move to this less secure facility just get the popcorn out and watch what happens here. This is ridiculous.

WHITFIELD: Huh. So Avery, what's your take on this? I mean, is this, you know, a ridiculous exercise, as Richard says here? Or is this just the way it goes, that it's a pain staking process if the U.S. does, indeed, want to prosecute him in these seven U.S. states, and you have to incrementally move him before he reaches the U.S. jurisdiction for prosecution? FRIEDMAN: Yeah, I think you just nailed it, Fredricka. The fact is, this is just a stop in the way of transferring El Chapo to the United States. My expectation is that he will be here, if not the weekend, probably soon. I know there's anything ridiculous about it. I think extradition efforts to keep him in Mexico failed. This is the beginning of the end, getting Guzman from Mexico to the United States. This is being expedited and I think very shortly, he will be part of the system here in the United States, and I actually think it will be in the next day or two.

WHITFIELD: In the next day or two. OK. So, Richard, so he, let's look ahead. He's in the United States, you know, after a successful extradition, if that's, indeed, what this is a prelude to.

HERMAN: Right.

WHITFIELD: And then, these seven states want to prosecute him. Why does the United States want this, what, either potential victory or is it a burden to now try to prosecute somebody who has slipped through the fingers of so many in Mexico, and slipped through, you know, the hands of U.S. DEA agents who have been looking for him inside Mexico and along the border for a very long time.

HERMAN: Yeah, Fred. This is justice and the United States will pursue this. Every jurisdiction that can bring charges against him will indict him.

[12:50:03] He will face charges in multiple jurisdictions. His actions have adversely impacted citizens of the United States and therefore, the Justice Department will unleash all their fury and power on him, to him pay, to make -- to try to seek justice, hopefully get convictions against him, and incarcerate him in facilities where I guarantee you, Fred, there's no way he's going to break out. No way.

HERMAN: That's right.

WHITFIELD: So Avery, you do not worry about a Houdini act similar the more to what we saw in Mexico? If any at all?

VOICE OF AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: No, that's Mexico, Fredricka. I mean, it's been basically free fall.

WHITFIELD: But he's got friends everywhere, right? I mean ...

FRIEDMAN: Well, that's exactly right. In fact, it was a very significant story this week. That the way he's been successful in getting out of these penitentiaries in Mexico is he's literally using gold bars, the fact that Mexican officials along with the United States Justice Department officials have expedited this extradition. It's not like ...

WHITFIELD: How do we know that hasn't already happened in the U.S., prior to his first or second bust?

FRIEDMAN: Well, I think it has. I think it has. I think there's been cooperation all the way. Unlike Italy, unlike Poland, unlike France, the strongest extradition relationship that the Department of Justice has is with Mexican officials. They want him out. We want him in. Justice Department will move forward with a prosecution. And their going to move quick.

WHITFIELD: So then, I wonder, if I can ask you a legal flash kind of political question into both of you gentleman, you know, and we're in height of this political race to the White House. You've seen the back and forth between former president of Mexico, Vicente Fox and Donald Trump, and the whole wall and a lack of cooperation or a promise of a cooperation. What does this potential moment of an extradition between Mexico and U.S. say about the future of a working relationship or cooperation on the justice level, between the United States and Mexico by way of El Chapo? Richard, first

HERMAN: Well, Fred, you know, we have a treaty with Mexico. And if they honor the treaty with this extradition, that's only showing good faith and it's showing the Mexican government willing and their desire to work with the United States. I don't think this has any impact on Mr. Trump's assertion that he's going to build a wall. I don't think this has any impact on that at all. This is purely a Justice Department determination. This is someone who is alleged to be a criminal in the United States, there are charges being brought against him. Extradition has taken place. And I don't think this has any other political motivations. Mexico will honor this because they depend on the United States. And if they were not to honor this, the penalties would be severe, that they would face. So, they really don't have a choice here Fred. They really don't.

WHITFIELD: Avery, how do say it, it sounds like you disagreed on some of that.

FRIEDMAN: I do. I have to tell you, I think this thing drips in political implications. The fact is there's an ironclad relationship between Mexico and the United States. And if there were ever an effort to get a guy like El Chapo out, it is right now. And it's going to prove that our system of justice works. And we've worked with Mexico. And believe me, any politician that's talking about building a wall is going to have to explain away the extraordinary effort of two sovereign states working together to get a bad guy to the United States. I think it's a profoundly political case.

WHITFIELD: And Nick Valencia, are you're still with us on the phone? You've covered this extensively, when he escaped and then when he was busted. And so can you refresh our memory and the chronology because there are a number of events that happened prior to today's movement and potential now extradition to the U.S.

ON THE PHONE, NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He was infamous in the Altiplano Penitentiary for about a year, a year and a half, before he was able to escape in July of 2015. He was on the run for about seven to eight months before eventually being recaptured by Mexican marines. He was not far away from where he was being held. He was in the State of Sinaloa. And eventually he was brought down, or so it seems by a schoolboy crush.

He was infatuated with a Mexican actress, Kate del Castillo. He had invited her along with American actor Sean Penn down to his compound in Sinaloa and that would then enabled Mexican officials to track him down, to find his whereabouts. We're told we have some initially some discrepancies in what we're being told by Mexican officials. It may speak to the levels of corruption there, within Mexico, the left hand not talking to the right.

Initially, we were told by some -- within the investigation, that they did not know that they did not know that El Chapo was being monitored, and was being watched. Of course Mexican officials been out to discredit that, discount that, saying they knew where he was, after he had reached out Kate del Castillo and Sean Penn.

[12:55:10] He was eventually captured and brought back to that very same prison where he had escaped. That led to a lot of criticism of the Mexican government.

How could you take El Chapo back to the same prison he escaped from?

WHITFIELD: Interesting.

VALENCIA: They took a number of steps to try to make sure that did not happen again, as mentioned, being shuffled around, having 24/7 surveillance there. He had incredible influence. And then with incredible power, he was seen as the de facto leader of the country in Mexico which is how he was sort of able to escape prison last summer.

He was being monitored, heavily guarded and in fact, it was just within just the last couple of months that his lawyer was complaining of the treatment that El Chapo was being given in prison.

WHITFIELD: All right.

VALENCIA: And now he's being transferred away from that prison and with (inaudible) back.

WHITFIELD: Excellent. And Nick and here we are right now. All right, thank you so much, Nick Valencia. We'll talk with you again. We're going to take a short break for now. Richard, Avery, thank you so much for being with me.

[12:56:25] Again, El Chapo has been transferred to a Ciudad Juarez prison there in Mexico, which you heard Nick described, he is just over the border from El Paso, Texas. A prelude perhaps to this eventual extradition to the United States for prosecution in seven U.S. States, we'll have more in the NEWSROOM right after this.

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