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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Trump Denies Calls Posing as Spokesman; Trump has Yet to Disclose Tax Information. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired May 13, 2016 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[12:00:00] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

Many a candidate for public office has seen his own words come back from the distant past to haunt him, but Donald Trump, as you may have already heard, is not your normal, usual, everyday candidate. So now the political universe is abuzz that words that Donald Trump claims were not his, but those of a very helpful, very insightful Donald Trump spokesman who happened to sound very, very much like one Donald J. Trump. Words that Donald Trump say don't matter. They don't matter because they were spoken 25 years ago. "The Washington Post" got a hold and an audio recording from 1991. And on that audio recording, a reporter from "People" magazine interviewing a man who identified himself as a newly hired Trump press aide named John Miller said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is your position there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I'm sort of in PR, because he gets so much of it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And, frankly, I mean I can tell you off the record, if I can tell you -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I can try to get to know you and talk a little bit off the record, I can tell you that he - he didn't care if he got bad PR until he got a divorce (ph) (INAUDIBLE). So when he got a lot of bad financial stuff, he liked it because he, you know, it was good because he could get a divorce. And once his divorce was finished, if you noticed since then, he's doing well financially and he's doing well in every other - (INAUDIBLE) the license was (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And people said, how come all of a sudden he's doing so well and then I guess (INAUDIBLE) about two weeks ago there was a story on that. And so I've sort of been put it here to handle - because I've never seen anybody get so many calls from the press.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where did you come from? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I - I was - I basically worked for different firms. I worked for a couple of different firms. And I'm somebody that knows and I think somebody that he trusts and likes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That reporter tells "The Post" that she hung up and thought, it's so weird that Donald Trump hired someone who sounds just like him. Here's how Donald Trump responded this morning on the "Today" show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (via telephone): It was not me on the phone. And it doesn't sound like me on the phone. I will tell you that. And it was not me on the phone. And when was this, 25 years ago?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the early '90s. But -

TRUMP: Wow.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

TRUMP: You mean - you mean you're - you're going so low as to talk about something that took place 25 years ago about whether or not I made a phone call, I guess you're saying under a presumed name?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, under a presumed name.

TRUMP: OK. Well - OK. The answer is no.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I want to bring in CNN politics reporter Jeremy Diamond, who's following this right now.

The phone call's getting a lot of ink and it's getting a lot of TV time, but is it the only incident like this?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Well, it's certainly not, Ashleigh. You know, we went back and kind of looked to see where else has Donald Trump used this name of a spokesman? You know, John Barron, John Miller. And I found a few different instances, including "New York Times" articles from 1994 and 1985 in which, you know, there's a spokesman, John Barron, quoted as a vice president of the Trump organization. And, you know, what's really interesting is this has kind of been an open secret. Not only in New York media circle, especially the gossip pages of New York tabloids that have repeatedly use the quote/unquote spokesman, but also among Trump organization executives, former Trump organization executives who told CNN that, in fact, you know, this was well known that Donald Trump would, in fact, use these monikers to speak on his own behalf as a quote/unquote spokesman.

BANFIELD: So he was obviously not happy with Matt and Savannah's line of questions and actually said, so you're going to go so low as to talk about something that took place 25 years ago, whether or not I made a phone call. Let's get on to more current topics. But the problem is, is that Donald Trump, just in the last week, has focused very, very heavily on stuff from 25 years ago, from the 1990s, and he has been sort of trying to destroy Hillary Clinton over things in the 1990s.

DIAMOND: That's right. Yes, this has been - emerged as kind of one of the central attacks that Donald Trump is leveling against his likely general election opponent, Hillary Clinton, who is, you know, the frontrunner for the Democratic nomination, of course. He has repeatedly brought up issues about Bill Clinton's past, you know, his alleged affairs, his alleged sexual abuses and that's kind of main line. Here's Donald Trump talking about Hillary Clinton as a quote/unquote enabler.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: And Hillary was an enabler and she treated these women horribly. Just remember this. And some of those women were destroyed, not by him, but by the way that Hillary Clinton treated them after everything went down. So just remember that, folks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:05:00] DIAMOND: So, as I said, that's kind of one of the central lines of attacks that Donald Trump has now been leveling against Hillary Clinton as he ramps up for a general election after locking up the presumptive Republican nomination. So it seems like that's a sign of more things to come, but certainly Donald Trump does not want to be talking about things like the fact that he perhaps pretended, impersonated a spokesman in the '80s and '90s, but he will continue to focus on Hillary Clinton's, you know, the issues emerging with her during that time.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: I think I get it. OK. Jeremy Diamond, thank you for that.

Can't wait to talk this one out with my panel. Jeffrey Lord is a Donald Trump supporter and a CNN political commentator. Errol Louis is a CNN political commentator and political anchor for Time Warner Cable News. And Amanda Carpenter is a former communications aide to Ted Cruz, as well a CNN political commentator.

Welcome to all three of you.

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hello, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Did not think we were going to be running tape from back in the '90s today, but, Jeffrey Lord, you have the unenviable task of trying to put this one in perspective and make it sound good. It doesn't sound good. You've got to be honest, it doesn't sound good.

LORD: No, I don't agree with you at all, Ashleigh. Look, I - in my - as I - you know, in my misspent youth, I was a press secretary to a congressman and a United States senator. I know how Washington works. And there's very few presidents, cabinet officers, senators or congressmen who do not do some version of what Donald Trump is being accused of doing here. They talk to reporters on the sly and say, don't use my name, but, and then the reporter goes out there and says, a source knowledgeable dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, and they never say -

BANFIELD: But that source is being honest, though. Jeffrey, the difference being the source is being honest. The source is saying who I am when I tell you these things don't use my name.

LORD: The source doesn't matter. No. No, no, no, no, no.

BANFIELD: Isn't there a difference between just blatantly lying?

LORD: No. No.

BANFIELD: This isn't punking because nobody is told they're being punked.

LORD: The source - Ashleigh - Ashleigh, the source is not being identified in the newspaper, or on television. The source is hiding his identity and the reporter is going along with it.

BANFIELD: The reporter is not being lied to.

LORD: The - the public is being lied to. This isn't just a quote/unquote anonymous source. This is a senator, a (INAUDIBLE) or a congressman or a president.

BANFIELD: Are we really having this debate over semantics? Honestly, Jeffrey, I thought you were going to say something more like 25 years ago things are different now and I -

LORD: Well - well, let me - let me get to that. Let me get to that. And I will say that, Ashleigh. Four years ago, when Mitt Romney ran for president, "The Washington Post" front paged a story that when he was in high school, high school, he and along with a gang of kids had cut - you know, pinned some kid to the grown in a high school type situation and cut his hair. And years later this kid turns out to be gay. I.e., Mitt Romney was a gay basher. This is what happens to Republican nominees for president, whether it's John McCain -

BANFIELD: Well, I'm not going to -

LORD: Whether it's Mitt Romney. Donald Trump. This is what goes on.

BANFIELD: I'm certainly not going to apologize for anyone who does that, but there is a massive difference between someone in high school and a businessman well into his 30s or 40s openly lying publicly to a reporter.

LORD: Ashleigh, Ashleigh, if you're out of a job in America, do you really think somebody cares about this?

BANFIELD: I think people care if their - if their president lies. Errol, do they care? Errol, do they care if somebody was telling lies

to a reporter? Look, we're the bottom of the heap, but do they care if they're lying 25 years ago?

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I don't - I don't know whether people will care. I can tell you, people should care that the candidate lied on camera today. I mean what he did 25 years ago is what he did, it's as obvious - I mean, look. Well, this is a legal show, so I'll use a little law school Latin, right. (INAUDIBLE) means, the thing speaks for itself. It was obviously his voice 25 years ago caught on tape. Four or five people who knew him at the time said, it's obviously him. He subsequently, Donald Trump, said to "People" magazine, he semi apologized for having done it. So we know that that was him.

He gets on television today and says, it wasn't him. So that's not true. And everybody who reports on it should be clear to point that out, that what he said this morning was not true. Now, his supporters can say, you know, throw a little fairy dust and sort of distort and say, well, everybody does it or it doesn't matter, and so forth and so on, but it does matter. And in whether or not people care about it, it is the job of the press to report it, which I think is what is going to happen over the next day or two.

BANFIELD: OK, so I'm going to move on from that because frankly, which is the word that Donald Trump likes to use a lot and strangely that guy on the phone used as well, frankly, say what you will about it. Amanda, id' like to draw your attention to other tape today. Donald Trump was asked by George Stephanopoulos on "Good Morning America" today a very simple question with regard to the tax returns that Donald Trump says he won't release because he's being audited. Have a listen to that exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, "GOOD MORNING AMERICA": What is your tax rate?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's none of your business. You'll see it when I release. But I fight very hard to pay as little tax as possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Amanda, what is your tax rate? None of your business. Is it our business?

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, I think it is. Every other presidential candidate has made these disclosures. Of course, Donald Trump is free not to do it, but he's going to continue to get questions, especially if he wants to make tax reform a central issue. Offering these tax disclosures is a sign of good faith to the voters. This is how I've made my money. This is how I've conducted my life. He's been unwilling to go under that vetting process.

[12:10:21] And the thing that sort of really boggles my mind between the tax returns and this issue of whether or not it's fair for "Washington Post" reporters to go look at these audiotapes is that, you know, a lot of Republicans, conservatives, went crazy because they didn't feel like Obama was vetted enough during his presidential campaign. This is what the vetting process is. It's looking at how you've conducted your public life. And if you haven't been in office a long time, we need to look at your businesses. That's what people want to see the tax returns for.

And then also, Donald Trump, how have you conducted yourself as a public figure? Did you misrepresent yourself to make your divorce look better in the papers? This is the central question to his relationships with women. And I agree, tabloid fodder, really, who cares if it was 25 years ago, but are you lying about it right now? And if you're not lying, then produce this PR figure that you hired and apparently trusted enough to discuss your divorce with the press. If he can't do that, then I think that makes it clear what's going on.

BANFIELD: Yes, because John Miller, John Barron shouldn't be too hard to find.

CARPENTER: Yes.

BANFIELD: Obviously a big supporter of Donald Trump, bit fan of Donald Trump, says he knows him really, really well. It's possible he's still around, either of those two people. I don't know which one it was.

I know you're laughing, Jeffrey Lord. And sometimes we have to laugh until we cry because this is the president of the United States. This isn't who's going to win "Survivor." It's not going to be who wins the, you know, reality shows.

LORD: Well, I would be less concerned about this than if the secretary of state was lying about Benghazi, to be perfectly candid.

BANFIELD: And that's going to be another segment as well. And there have been many segments about it. But I do have to ask you, is it - I mean is it not our business? Because for the last 40 years, Amanda said all presidents, just in the last 40 years -

LORD: Right.

BANFIELD: Which is a lifetime for many of us, every president has done it. And it does -

LORD: Speak for yourself.

BANFIELD: Well, God bless you. But definitely more than my lifetime. So my issue is, is that those tax returns will tell us a lot about whether Donald Trump tells the truth. If we're going to move beyond these tapes, the tax returns will tell us that. And every other candidate and president has agreed. Why is he different?

LORD: Ashleigh, you know, I have to say, in thinking about this, Donald Trump or anyone else, frankly, I just think that this is worth - a worthless exercise. It has only been done for 40 years. In other words, we had plenty of presidents in the United States, up until I think Richard Nixon was the first that had to do this in the sort of post-Watergate atmosphere. I just think that, you know, who cares at this point. This is not in the Constitution. This is not a qualification to be president. I don't really care what anybody's taxes are.

BANFIELD: Being honest is. I'm just going to say that.

Look, I think crime is bad. Puppies are sweet. And that it is important to be honest if you are a president.

LORD: Well -

BANFIELD: Errol, quick, last word.

LORD: No, that's not -

LOUIS: Especially - I mean especially - especially if you're - never mind 40 years ago. The last 40 days, if you're going to be a candidate who runs around talking about lyin' Ted and crooked Hillary and saying the press is dishonest and casting aspersions on everybody else's statements, you should be willing to take a little bit of what you're giving out and answer some questions and be truthful for a change.

LORD: (INAUDIBLE).

BANFIELD: And, Errol, I'm just going to answer that. Jeffrey, that Donald Trump sells himself on a campaign trail regularly as being a very astute businessman. So I think it's only fair for us to see for ourselves if it's just what he says or if it's what he does.

LORD: But the issue - one of the issues here is the IRS and the politicization of the IRS. And there's all kinds of people -

BANFIELD: OK.

LORD: I mean the whole Lois Lerner (ph) episode pictures the IRS as a very political agency.

BANFIELD: But 10 - you know, 10, 15 years of politicization of the IRS. He's not releasing any of them. I think we could go back and forth on this all day.

LORD: We could.

BANFIELD: I adore all three of you and I absolutely love having you on this program.

LORD: I love it.

BANFIELD: And I hope you have a great weekend. Thank you.

LORD: Thanks, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Jeffrey Lord, Errol Louis and Amanda Carpenter, best to you, all three.

Coming up, the former head of the CIA is slamming Donald Trump's positions on foreign policy as, quote, ready, "crazy." That's the former head of the CIA. His explanation, plus reaction from this man, a very busy man these days, who travels a lot and has to take in a lot of information. He's the RNC's communications director, Sean Spicer. He's live with me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:18:10] BANFIELD: The man who stands to carry the Republican banner in the 2016 presidential race took a step this week to rally that party around him. But it's very much a work in progress and every day seems to add a wrinkle, complication, I don't know what it is, actually, but Sean Spicer knows what it is because he's the chief strategist and the communications director for the Republican National Committee.

By the way, it is almost the weekend, Sean. I just want to let you know. You made it. You made it through this very difficult week and I know it was a tough week for you and for everybody.

SEAN SPICER, CHIEF STRATEGIST, COMMUNICATIONS DIR., RNC : Not sure what that means. I -

BANFIELD: Well, there's a lot of press to navigate throughout this week, especially -

SPICER: I think that just means that tomorrow I have to -

BANFIELD: Go ahead.

SPICER: I think it just means less traffic tomorrow coming to work.

BANFIELD: OK. All right, I'll - I'll leave it to you to say it's all about commuting. But I do want to ask you, obviously, about this latest sort of dust-up, this brouhaha, this notion that there's this audiotape of what sounds very much like Donald Trump. And he has said he's done it in the past, but says it wasn't him today pretending to be his own press aide and bragging to a reporter about his divorce and his girlfriends and himself and his businesses. Does this give you pause and are you concerned that all those people you're trying to bring into the Trump camp and vice versa might have issues with this?

SPICER: You know, I, frankly, I think what gives me pause is the fact that on the front page of "The New York Post" and "The Wall Street Journal," there's a story about the Clinton Foundation's nefarious activities giving people board seats and trading favors. Hillary Clinton's under investigation from the FBI and we're talking about an audiotape from 25 years ago about someone may or may not be calling a reporter. Mr. Trump's denied it this morning on the "Today" show, as you guys know. So I think, frankly, considering the magnitude of problems that this country's facing and the issues going on, on the other side of the aisle that are real and substantive, the idea that we're talking about an audiotape about someone calling a reporter is, frankly, quite silly.

[12:20:00] BANFIELD: So it - it's not just an audiotape. It's lying about it, because this is the accusation that Donald Trump is saying it's not him and that it - to the reporter, if it is him, he is lying about who he is. So he calls, you know, Ted Cruz lyin' Ted and crooked Hillary. Isn't character and honesty a huge issue, not just a videotape or audiotape from the past. It is important?

SPICER: Sure, but he's - he said multiple times this morning on the "Today" show that it wasn't him.

BANFIELD: OK. I'm going to leave it there. I do want to ask you about another morning show. That whole back and forth between George Stephanopoulos on "GMA" about the tax returns. Those tax returns just won't leave you alone. But he said it's none of your business. Is it none of our business, Sean? It seems to be, for a lot of people, important business. How do you feel?

SPICER: Well, I think Mr. Trump's got to make a decision sooner rather than later about whether or not to release his tax returns. As you know, he's filed extensively with the Federal Elections Commission as to his holdings. So everyone knows what's there in terms of what he owns. All his assets had to be reported to the Federal Election Committee. That form is out there for everyone to see. The media has done a thorough examination of that. But it's going to be up to him to decide how much further that he wants to have, you know, members of the media go through his personal life.

BANFIELD: Does the RNC want him to do it?

SPICER: I think he's got to make a decision what's in his best interest. I think, frankly, a lot of this is a media exercise, trying to figure out what, you know, how much they can dig in to his personal life. So it's a decision that's deeply (ph) personal and he (INAUDIBLE) at an appropriate time.

BANFIELD: No, no, no, to be clear, to be clear, we are not treating him differently. No one in the press is treating him any differently than presidents and candidates for the last 40 years. You have to agree with that. Every single one of them has done it.

SPICER: No, they've done it. I'm saying - that's my point, though, is that he's also filed very extensively as to what his holdings are with the Federal Election Committee. It is now up to him to decide whether or not he wants to take it a step further. But that's his decision to make.

BANFIELD: So let's move on to foreign policy because the former CIA director, who also happens to be the former defense secretary, Leon Panetta, was on "New Day" this morning and had a couple of things to say about the RNC's, you know, standard bearer, presumptive nominee, and his ideas about foreign policy. Let's have a listen. I'm going to ask you about them on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEON PANETTA, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: I'm not sure what he stands for. I'm not sure what his positions are. He takes one position one day, he takes another position the next day. He takes positions on, you know, immigration and building a wall, on getting rid of 11 million immigrants. He talks about distributing atomic weapons, that it's OK if Japan gets atomic weapons, if Korea gets atomic weapons. He says these things almost as if he's not even thinking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And then that's not the only criticism about foreign policy. David Petraeus, former CIA director as well, CENTCOM commander, former CENTCOM commander, registered Republican said, "rather than making our country safer," his statements, Mr. Trump's statements, "will compound the already grave terrorist danger to our citizens. Those who flirt with hate speech against Muslims should realize they are playing directly into the hands of al Qaeda and the Islamic State." Those are some guys with big foreign policy gravitas who are coming down hard on the Republican nominee - the presumptive nominee. As the head - you know, as the RNC, you've got to be very worried about this as your other members who you're trying to unify with Donald Trump.

SPICER: Well, the one - the one thing that you left off - the one thing you left off Leon Panetta's bio is, he was Bill Clinton's chief of staff too. I mean this isn't a guy who's coming at this purely like altruistically trying to figure out what's in the best interest of the country.

BANFIELD: No, but Petraeus -but Petraeus wasn't.

SPICER: He is a known partisan. He was an elected Democrat. I mean like - so, hold on. But, I mean, I think it's like, let's be honest. I mean, you know, also in that same interview, Leon Panetta went on extensively to talk about how there is some concern about what Hillary Clinton had on those e-mails. I mean if he - if both of those individuals I think are probably equally concerned with the amount of classification information that Hillary Clinton put on a private e- mail server for the first time in history and has not allowed anyone to actually see it. If they want to be concerned about what's going on, they should have Hillary Clinton release the transcripts over Goldman Sachs.

So, I mean, like let's talk about what's really - you know, what's going on, on the other side. You've got a candidate who's deeply flawed. The American people don't trust her for good reason. If you want to talk about flip-flops, Hillary Clinton has done so many flip- flops, she could win gold in Rio this year, in Brazil, because she is a world class gymnastics winner when it comes to her flip-flops. So I really appreciate all the concern about our side of the party, but I think when you look at what the Democrats have, they've got a very, very flawed candidate who takes a position every day to suit the room that she's in.

BANFIELD: There's a lot of ink for both of them, and deservedly so, as they are both seeking the highest office. And I applaud you, sir. Thank you for being on the show. I look forward to our next meeting. Thank you, Sean.

SPICER: Thank you, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Have a good weekend. Get some rest, my friend. SPICER: Will do.

BANFIELD: Sean Spicer joining us. There's a little bit of a delay, I should add, as well. He's not pausing when he's answering my questions. There is this little bit of a satellite delay. Thank you, Sean.

Quick programming note I want to bring you as well. My colleague Wolf Blitzer is going to interview former presidential candidate and current Trump supporter Ben Carson, and that is coming up in the next hour. So make sure you stay right here on CNN, 1:00 p.m. Eastern Time. Ben Carson with Wolf, it should be great, coming up.

[12:25:12] People are furious over those super-duper awful annoying stinky frustrating long airport lines. I know you've been in them and you're probably one of those people. You're trying to catch your flight and this is what you face. Is there any fix, especially before summer comes and the travel season gets any worse? You might be surprised to see who's going at it right now, angry over the same things that you are.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:30:07] BANFIELD: At any minute, Homeland Security and the TSA are going to be talking about an issue that will more than likely impact you if you travel