Return to Transcripts main page


Brexit Debate Continues; Immigration A Key Issue In Referendum Debate; Kidnapped Nigerian Girl Found With Four-Month-Old Baby; Inside Operation To Root Out ISIS In Libya; Vote Takes Place June 23; Cost of Refugees and Immigrants Part of Debate. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired May 18, 2016 - 15:00:00   ET



[15:01:03] HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Tonight, a special edition of THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. We're live with a bird's-eye view of the

port of Dover, England, where immigration is of key importance as Britain considers its role in the European Union.

The queen's speech didn't mention the word "Brexit," but it hangs over the newly opened session of parliament. Just over a month out from the E.U.

referendum, I'll speak to heavyweights on both sides of the argument with two debates this hour.

Plus, a view for what may be the most euro skeptic town in England and why the prospect of a Brexit has some over in Germany quite nervous.

Hello, everyone. I'm Hala Gorani. We are live in Dover. We'll have that and the rest of the world's news. This is THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.

Well, we promised a bird's-eye view and we are delivering a bird's-eye view. Some drone shots over Dover. Rhetoric is heated, the country is

divided, and the stakes could barely be higher.

Arguably the most important election in recent British memory. In a little more than 30 days, this country will decide whether to stick with the

European Union or go it alone.

A few hours ago the queen ushered in a new parliamentary year with all the pomp and ceremony you would imagine here in Britain. It is a year that

could see the biggest upheaval in European politics in generations.

Our show tonight comes live as I mentioned from the port of Dover. From its world famous cliffs to its historic tassel, it is Britain's closest

point to mainland Europe. In coastal towns like this, the issue of immigration is key in the upcoming referendum. Take a look.


GORANI (voice-over): The white cliffs of Dover on Britain's southeast coast, the frontier of the small island nation. France is less than 30

miles away across this narrow stretch of the English Channel.

From Dover castle, the British military has defended itself from invasion from mainland Europe for centuries, and it's this border and the flow of

people across it that has become a key battleground in the U.K.'s latest tussle with the continent.

NIGEL FARAGE, LEADER OF U.K. INDEPENDENCE PARTY: This is a British passport. What are the first two words on it? "European Union."

GORANI: Those campaigning for a "Brexit" in next month's referendum say Britain needs to take back control of its borders.

FARAGE: And this passport is available to 508 million people. There is nothing we can do to stop unlimited numbers of people from E.U. countries

settling in this country, and enjoying the same rights and privileges as all the rest of us.

GORANI: But that unlimited freedom of movement is a fundamental principle of the European Union. It means net E.U. migration to the U.K. is 172,000

per year according to the most recent figures.

The club of E.U. nations has grown considerably over the years to include Central European countries like Poland, Romania, and Bulgaria.

Many people from those nations have migrated to the U.K. looking for work. According to "leave" campaigners, this has put pressure on services and

taken jobs away from local people.

BORIS JOHNSON, FORMER MAYOR OF LONDON: There are parts of the E.U. where minimum wages are about one-fifth of the level that we set in this country.

It's going to have a massive magnetic effect on the U.K. and loads of people here.

GORANI: Those on the side of "remain," say E.U. migrants are in fact a benefit to the economy contributing more in taxes than they take out in

welfare. The Prime Minister, David Cameron, campaigning to remain in the E.U. has fought to make Britain less attractive to migrants without jobs.

DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: If you come to Britain and we're putting these changes in now, and you don't have a job, you can't claim

unemployment benefit. And after six months if you haven't got a job, you have to go home.

GORANI: For his critics, these concessions are not enough. A Brexit, they say, is the only answer. If Britain votes to leave the E.U. on June 23rd,

this border will take on a whole new meaning.


GORANI: All right, let's go to Westminster and speak to two senior members of the Conservative Party who are on very different sides of this Brexit

argument. Former chancellor and Home Secretary Kenneth Clark joins us and Peter Bone, both Tory MPs.

First of all, Kenneth Clark, to you. The E.U. question has been really at the center of your entire political career. Do you think that your country

will vote to leave or to remain in this union?

[15:05:09]KENNETH CLARK, FORMER BRITISH CHANCELOR: Well, you're right, if you told me 50 years ago when I started being active in politics as a

student that I'd still be engaged in the same crazy argument about Britain's involvement with the European Union, it was a European community

then, by the end of my career as the beginning I would have thought you were mad.

But referendums are always a gamble. I don't think anybody actually knows. Polls are giving conflicting messages. A lot of people haven't quite made

their mind up and a lot will depend on turn out.

So we're about to have a big opinion poll, a big plebiscite, which will decide Britain's whole future, the role in the world, the basis with our

foreign policy, the basis for our economy in today's very much globalized economy and our relationship with most of our allies. That will all be

decided on June 23rd and a variety of issues are being thrown about.

GORANI: Mr. Peter Bone, I know you support leaving the European Union, why take the risk, why venture into the unknown? Why leave a big powerful

negotiating bloc to just become a medium-sized economy that has to go through renegotiating every single trade and political agreement that it

has done with within the E.U.? Why do it?

PETER BONE, CONSERVATIVE MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: Well, first of all, we are the fourth biggest economy in the world. We sit on the U.N. We are the

head of the Commonwealth, but hardly a medium sized player in any way, shape or form so I think you've got that wrong to start with.

But of course, it is not a question of as a state it's grown in the European Union. European Union is in chaos. It's got economic crisis

where Germany very strong is the other countries with very weak and transfers of money and austerity.

We have immigration, a huge problem in Europe. The status quo is not what's offered. It is much more dangerous to be in the European Union than

out. I think that's probably one thing I and Ken could agree on.

GORANI: What about the economic argument -- go ahead.

CLARK: Well, I was just saying we agree on very little. Of course, Europe is changing. The world is changing. We're changing. We belong to a lot

of international organizations. We have full sovereignty by joining the United Nations, by joining NATO.

Every time we sign a treaty, you decide in some ways what you can do. Our role in the world depends on being a leading and influential player in the

European Union, alongside the Germans, the French, the Italians, and the Polish.

We are a leading force inside Europe. It is the biggest single market in the world as the base for our economy, but it also gives us a voice in

defending our interests around the world.

And I hope spreading our values and joining with our liberal democracies in protecting ourselves against Putin's Russia or crisis in the Middle East in

North Africa, whatever it happens to be.

Isolationism going back to 19th Century independent sovereignty is an extraordinary option nor a country like today's United Kingdom to go for.

BONE: I have to say, that's completely the opposite. That's the argument why we should come out. The fact is, the European Union is a shrinking

market in the world. It is inward looking.

We want to come out of the E.U. so we can look to the rest of the world and be global. It is exactly the argument that Ken puts forward, but his

solution of staying in is the wrong one. We should come out and be global, not part of a small customs union.

CLARK: How does our ability to perform in the wider world get improved by pulling out of our biggest single market, Peter? When I go to China, I

find we're miles behind the Germans when it comes to our exports there.

The idea that Germany is inhibited by its membership of the European Union, it can't actually compete with us in the wider world because of the

inhibitions. It is complete nonsense. It is a complete non sequitur to say we'd be better off by just pulling out of the one place --

GORANI: If I can jump in, I don't think you necessarily need me for this, but if I could jump in, let me ask you about this idea somehow that Britain

has relinquished -- if I could ask you, Mr. Clark -- relinquished its sovereignty to Brussels, that why should any of the laws that rule this

land be decided anywhere other than in Great Britain? What do you say to people who say, we've given up too much. This ever-closer project is not

for us.

CLARK: Well, all the rules and regulations are agreed by councils and ministers drawn from every country, and they are approved by the elected

European parliament. Every market nowadays, America and in Europe, has vast members of consumer protection regulations, animal welfare

regulations, health and safety, employment and so on.

You are going to have 28 different national rules in Europe or you can have one. The market works better with one.

[15:10:01]But no euro skeptic I've debated with can name me one regulation, which a British government opposed, which is doing harm and which they

think the British parliament would repeal.

They say all our laws are being made in Brussels, all those regulations. Nobody can name one that they think we repeal.

GORANI: Peter Bone, can you name one? Can you name one regulation?

BONE: Well, there are actually --

GORANI: Can you name one regulation that has hurt Britain? Because you've been thrown a challenge there by Kenneth Clark.

CLARK: That the British government didn't support.

BONE: Yes, that the British government on 74 occasions have opposed in the Council of Europe something that's not in our interest and at every single

occasion, they've lost. And I'd much rather that the Westminster government making our decision.

I don't think you would like it in the United States if your decisions were being made in Mexico or Canada, and that there was free movement across the

borders. You just wouldn't stand for it.

And that's what we basically have to put up with. Free movement of people across our border, no immigration controls whether we want them or not. It

discriminates against the rest of the world.

In fact, in any other field where you discriminated against people with darker skins, which is exactly what the European Union immigration policy

does, it is unfair, it is absolutely unfair and wrong and that's the issue.

That's the primary issue that the British people say, our immigration system is not fair, it's wrong, and that we have to come out of the

European Union to fix it. And I think that's the issue that people will vote for on the 23rd of June.

CLARK: He can't name a law. I've been to more councils of ministers than most people have held dinners, but they're usually on policy and actually,

you can go back. I can't think of a law that is being opposed by anybody here which the British government didn't support. You can talk to

fertilizer manufacturers so you should have all the --

GORANI: Kenneth Clark and Peter Bone, thanks to both of you. We hope to have you both on again on June 23rd once we know what this country decides.

Thanks to both of you.

And what do the polls say about where the U.K. might be headed? That's a complicated question because most polls show the voters too close to call.

Take a look at this graph.

It shows the polling trend since January of this year around the very latest numbers remain with 44 percent, leave with 40 percent. We should

note the lack of voting history on the subject makes it difficult to know how reliable these numbers can be.

To break down the numbers, I'm joined now by Joe Twyman. He is the director of Political Polling for YouGov and he is live in our London

bureau. Talk to us about these latest numbers. What do they tell us? Is it really too close to call at this stage?

JOE TWYMAN, DIRECTOR OF POLITICAL POLLING, YOUGOV: Well, what they tell us is the state of play at the moment. This is a crucial point because

opinion polls -- no opinion polls are designed to offer a prediction of where we're going to go.

Instead they provide a snapshot of opinion at the time as it is at the moment. And at the moment what we're seeing is that the campaign to remain

is moving slightly ahead in what has been an extremely close race.

But it really is too close to call. And, also, there is a lot to play for because a significant portion of the population remains undecided. Now

we've got more than a month remaining and a week is a long time in politics, we've got more than four long times left for lots of changes to

take place.

In previous referendum, both in the U.K. and in other countries, but there's been a move within the last month to the new and exciting option in

this case leave, only for it to them be replaced by move towards the status quo, in this case stay.

It could happen that the same thing occurs on this occasion, but we won't really know until the 23rd itself what's going to happen.

GORANI: And let me ask you this big chunk of undecideds. Do they typically favor the status quo or do they favor change in your experience

analyzing numbers?

TWYMAN: Well, there are two different dimensions here. There is the question of whether people will choose to vote one way or another, and then

there is the question of whether people will choose to vote or not.

And it is the interaction between the two that's particularly interesting in this case, because to answer your question, people who feel a duty to

vote, those people who turn out for elections time after time.

If they say "don't know," it is likely that they will break based on historical context based in favor of the status quo and we expect the same

thing to happen on this occasion.

But of course there is a lot of campaigning still to go and it could be the fear of the status quo, something promoted a lot by the elite campaign in

the next couple weeks, actually trumps it.

GORANI: Now let's talk a little bit about age because there is a huge disparity between young voters and older voters in this country. Tell us

about that and tell us why that is.

TWYMAN: Well, the big division is around sort of the age of 40. So distinction is those people like myself who grew up with the European

community, the European Union, and have never had any kind of vote or really thought about it.

[15:15:13]And those people view it as less important for them and we think they are less likely to vote in elections generally. Then you have older

people, people typically over the age of 50, 60, and they, for them, Europe is a really important issue and they are more likely to vote to leave.

So we have this big distinction between the young people who wish to stay and the old people who wish to leave, but it is the older people who are

more likely to turn out. So the challenge that the "stay" campaign has is to get those young people out as much as it is to win over new voters.

GORANI: And lastly, how reliable are these polls? We all remember the general election and how few polls -- you say a poll is a snapshot at any

given time. But often we look at these numbers and take them as some sort of indicator at least as to what will happen. How reliable are these


TWYMAN: Well, all polls, regardless of how perfect they may or may not be, have a margin of error associated with them. So while we can abolish many

of the problems the polls have, we can't abolish the laws of probability.

But you are right, last year we didn't cover ourselves in glory, but the year before that we did extremely well at the European elections, which

could be a good proxy for this.

Just last month the London mayoral elections. We predicted Sadiq Khan would get 53 percent and Zach Goldsmith would get 43 percent. That's

exactly what happened. We've made improvements. We've spent hundreds of thousands on recruitment and we hope it will pay dividends.

GORANI: All right. Joe Twyman, thanks very much, the director of Political Polling at YouGov. Thanks for joining us from our London studio.

A lot more to come this evening on THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. We'll have the other big stories we are following including a glimmer of hope in Nigeria.

One of the kidnapped school girls lass been found with a baby in tow.

ISIS has been gaining territory far from the world's focus on Iraq and Syria. Our reporter has been on the ground in Libya. His exclusive report

is still ahead.

Plenty more from here in Dover as Britons take sides in one of the most important debates in a generation. We'll be right back.


GORANI: We are live in Dover, England with extensive Brexit debate coverage. More on that in a few minutes.

But now, let's bring you the other stories we are following this hour. Two years ago, Boko Haram militants stormed a school in Chibouk, Nigeria

abducting nearly 300 school girls. Today, one of those girls emerged from a forest in northeastern Nigeria alive and apparently well.

[15:20:06]The Nigerian military says it rescued Amina Aliwas (ph) with a 4- month-old baby. But earlier reports from local activists said the girl was found.

Incredibly the Nigerian military says that she is the first of the schoolgirls to be freed. Our Nima Elbagir has covered this story

extensively. She traveled to Nigeria last month in fact and she joins me now from London with more on what we know.

What do we know about this young girl and the circumstances under which she was found or rescued?

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we now have a little bit of a clarification from the Nigerian military as to how this

unfolded. Over the last few weeks they've intensified the push to the area which has for years been a strong hold for Boko Haram.

During that push they believe that Boko Haram were forced to move some of their captors. It was local joint civilian task force members, essentially

local vigilantes working with the military were the ones who led the military to where these girls were.

They were the ones who found the girls and that is in keeping with what we've been hearing from eyewitnesses. The sad reality is that this is

reflective of what people have been feared for so long which is that if and when these girls are found, they will be found with children.

They will be found to have been forced into marriage to Boko Haram commanders. That is how it appears now. This young girl with a 4-month-

old baby and a commander who himself claims that he was the victim of an abduction by Boko Haram.

She is currently on her way to the state capital where military sources they will us she will be given a medical and psychological check first and


But then of course, Hala, they want to know what she knows and whether that will be able to lead them to the rest of the girls. So our understanding

is that it will be a few days yet before her parents will be allowed to meet with her.

GORANI: All right, let's remind people of your recent reporting on this story for our viewers. Take a look.


ELBAGIR (voice-over): Two years ago, we met Mary (inaudible) on our visit to Chibuk after the abduction of their daughters and more than 200 other

girls. We asked them if they recognize any of the girls in the video.

They lean closer. Another girl is identified. One by one, they name all 15 girls. But one mother, Yanna (ph), realizes her daughter isn't there.


GORANI: So this latest news, Nima, has got to be giving some of these mothers a little bit of hope.

ELBAGIR: Absolutely. And we know that it was the release of the video by CNN that spurred that deeper push into the area because for so long there

had been nothing. There really was beginning to be a sense that, well, almost what are we looking for anymore?

And the new proof of life video that galvanized the activists and the families. The hope is that now this new glimmer of hope that this will

allow the government to really put greater resources and push even deeper - - Hala.

GORANI: All right. Nima Elbagir, thanks very much. Live in London with this glimmer of hope, as we've been calling it, one of the Chibuk girls

found in Nigeria. Thanks very much.

Now, executions for crimes as small as cursing, corpses hanging in the streets. A constant fear of arrest. That's how a new human rights watch

report describes daily life in the city of Sirt. ISIS also controls land to the east and west of Sirt along Libya's coast. That's where the U.S.

has been sending surveillance. Our Nick Paton Walsh was there with this exclusive report. Take a look.


NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the eye in the sky for America's quietest war on ISIS in Libya

especially adaptive spy plane.

(on camera): These flights part of a growing effort by U.S. intelligence agencies to learn as much as they can about ISIS in what many consider to

be its most dangerous stronghold, so close to Europe.

(voice-over): Buried in the rock of the remote Sicilian island, it is run by a handful of Americans. They fly over North Africa's coast aviation

records show, likely hoovering up electronic chatter video from above the failed state, one-tenth of whose coastline ISIS now control.

And down here is where it matters. A long isolated road between the Libyan City of Misratah and the ISIS stronghold of Sirt. This day is all bad

news. ISIS using a suicide bomber to help advance the furthest yet. Fighters tell us that Americans are also on the ground here.

[15:25:10](on camera): On this road we're seeing reinforcement falling down there. One witness said they saw what looked like four armored SUVs

containing western looking soldiers.

(voice-over): They know this about what we see. One Libyan official later revealed a dozen U.S. troops operating at a town in a nearby airbase, the

Pentagon confirming U.S. troops are, quote, "meeting with Libyans" but wouldn't give details.

This man saying he managed to save his family as ISIS moved into their hometown. This was the scene they left behind. These chaotic militia are

all that stand between ISIS and one of Libya's biggest cities.

Hours later, ISIS sent another suicide bomber in an armored car. It threw Misratah into a state of emergency flooding it with casualties. Scenes

they thought they'd seen the last of once they defeated Gadhafi are back again. Over 100 injured and nine dead. On a scale the hospital can barely

cope with. Relatives kept out with only peer through the glass and muse.

(on camera): The most severely wounded are being brought out now, a steady stream of casualties, quite unlike anything this city is used to. Along

with that sense of ISIS never having really been so close or so threatening.

(voice-over): Funerals now too common, they say. This for a man killed in the first of two suicide bombings leaving his wife pregnant with their

third child. The martyr is the friend of God, they chant.

After five years of war, it barely jars other routines. Weddings go on nearby. America is for now here as little as it can be and ISIS are

winning. The wait for outside help measured in sons lost. Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Misratah.


GORANI: Thursday Nick Paton Walsh shows us what new threats migrants are facing as they get out of Libya to get away from ISIS on what is already a

difficult journey.


WALSH: This trade in human souls is awful enough until you think that perhaps ISIS are using this passage of human life into Europe to try and

infiltrate the continent with sleeper cells.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): ISIS can be among the illegal immigrants on the boats. They travel with their families without weapons

as normal illegal immigrants. They will wear American dress and have English language papers so they cause no suspicion.


GORANI: All right. This exclusive report is Thursday only on CNN. You'll see it on this program, of course.

Still ahead, we continue to look at Britain's future with the debate. The polls are too close to call. Campaigns are heating up and the arguments on

both sides are fiery.

Next, once again, we'll debate the decision facing Britain with two guests who have opposing views and will be with me here in Dover. Stay with us.

We'll be right back as we leave you with more live drone images from the Port of Dover.



[15:30:00] GORANI: So is Britain better off staying in the European Union or should this country go at it alone. Joining me now are two guests with

very different views on the issue. Richard Ashworth, a conservative member of the European Parliament, who supports the (INAUDIBLE) campaign. Thanks

for being with us. Harriet Yeo is a politician from the U.K. Independence Party, UKIP, who is in favor of leaving.

I'm going to start with, Mr. Ashworth. First of all, why are you in favor of remaining in the EU? Why not just be an independent country, make your

own laws, set your own rules, control your own borders?

RICHARD ASHWORTH, CONSERVATIVE MEMBER OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT: Because relationship with the European Union, going back now over 40 years, has

been a remarkable success story. I'm the generation who lived through the longest period of peace and the courageous level of prosperity ever. And I

don't think we should forget that.

GORANI: Is that down to the EU?

ASHWORTH: While we've been members of the European Union, yes, because in 1972, when we joined, we were the sick man of Europe. Actually, our

factories could only run for three days a week. Now look at us today. We're the fifth largest economy on earth. We've got the fastest rate of

growth. We've got the lowest level of unemployment and the highest rate of investment.

Now that can't be bad. Why would you want to walk away from that to another arrangement which is never articulated.?

GORANI: Why walk away from that, why, by voting to leave the EU would you force, really, this country to confront the unknown when you have a

situation that has worked so, as Mr. Ashworth has said, for Britain?

HARRIET YEO, POLITICIAN FROM THE U.K. INDEPENDENCE PARTY, UKIP: It might sound peachy to Mr. Ashworth, but it doesn't sound peachy to a lot of the

people that I speak to in the streets and on the doorsteps. Yes, we want to trade with Europe. Europe are our friends; we're Europeans, but we want

to be able to control our own destiny.

We need to be able to say, "This is what we want for the people of Britain," and we have to put our own people first. At the end of the day,

when you take care of people, you start off by taking care of yourself. In an aircraft, when the masks drop, it says, "Take care of yourself first

before you can help other people."

GORANI: Well, that's when the plane's about to crash. Do you consider the U.K. is in such a dire situation and needs to give itself oxygen before it

can help anyone else?

YEO: No, I don't think it's the U.K. plane that's going to crash; I think it's the EU plane that's about to crash.

GORANI: But what sovereignty of the U.K. lost that you would like it to regain?

YEO: Control of its borders, and yes, we can control physically on the borders. We have the border control, so we can't say - we let so many

people in, and at the moment, we just haven't got enough resources.

ASHWORTH: I'm sorry, this is just not being well explained at all. We're not members of the (INAUDIBLE), so we do control our own borders. It's

actually because we control our own borders. There are a lot of people in (INAUDIBLE) wanting to get into this country, but because they can't,

they're stuck there. We do control our own borders. We do have the right to turn people away, even if they've got European Union passports, so for

the last three years, we've turned 6,000 people away.

So, I'm sorry, we do control our own borders.

GORANI: I mean, when you enter the U.K., no matter where you come from, you must show a passport and you are controlled. What part of this border

control do you think needs to be (INAUDIBLE)?

YEO: Well, I think this is patronizing by saying "Yes, it's being controlled," because it's not being controlled. You go to the town where I

come from which is just 40 minutes up this road, and the people that can't get houses, the people that can't get into doctors to see them, and the

people who can't get their children in the schools.

It's not that we don't want any immigration. It's just that we are full until we build more houses, more schools and more .

GORANI: Mr. Ashworth, that's a legitimate, that's a legitimate argument from people who favor

ASHWORTH: It's not, I'm sorry but it not.

GORANI: Because there is a lot of stress put on hospitals, on schools, on housing.

ASHWORTH: It's the typical sort of argument that we are getting in this debate. Whatever's wrong in the world, blame it on the European Union.

Now, actually we do control our own borders. We do control who comes into this country.

GORANI: But (INAUDIBLE) is higher than the target set even by the prime minister.

ASHWORTH: It has, but then, actually, if the economy's growing faster than you said it was going to, that's the one real reason. Secondly, you know,

in this country we're all getting older. We're not breeding enough. So if we're going to maintain our standard of living and growth, we need an

immigration policy.

GORANI: What about that argument and, also, the argument that young people overwhelmingly favor staying and older people are the onerous who would

like to leave. In other words, those who have experienced and known the EU their whole lives, are the onerous who are happy to stay within this

political and economic union.

YEO: So we're not breeding enough. What are you, puppies? We are allowed to let in people that we need to have here, and it's all very well and good

to say, "We have got control," but we haven't got control when we don't know how many people are coming in. We haven't got enough houses for the

people that are here in the minute.

We were talking before earlier, and you've got a business and a house in Nice (ph) and probably somewhere to live in London. The people that I'm

talking about are the people in Ashford (ph) who can't get a house. They can't get a two-bedroom (INAUDIBLE)

ASHWORTH: You can't blame all of this on the European Union. Now that as an internal issue, that's fine. We do control our own borders. We're not

in the (INAUDIBLE) and, actually, I find in this whole debate, there's this terrible confusion of sovereignty and power. People think we're losing

sovereignty. Actually, if you're participating in a single market, yes, of course, you've got one common set of rules, but that doesn't make you less


And there's this terrible confusion in this country right now.

GORANI: But let me ask you, Harriet, I mean, the economic numbers are quite clear, that the benefit from being in the EU, according to even the

Confederation of British Industry and other bigger organizations, the net benefit is higher than leaving. In other words, what you put in, you get

more out. And the net migration to this country is because the economy is so vibrant, so there is no truth to that?

YEO: No, we're net contributors to the EU.

GORANI: Contributors (ph) of the net economic benefit in terms of economic growth, not the net benefit of what you put in and what you get out of the

union in terms of subsidies.

YEO: We get lots and lots of statistics (INAUDIBLE), and I'm an ordinary person that does an ordinary job. Your intro said I was a politician. I'm

not. I'm an activist with UKIP. And I came to UKIP from Labor because I needed to represent people, and Labor weren't listening, they absolutely

were not listening to the people on the doorstep that were finding it incredibly difficult just to survive.

Now, it's (INAUDIBLE) more the statistics of people, but statistics are not going to put a roof over your head, and I know people with young children

that are (INAUDIBLE) and having to leave children with the grandparents because they have no way to live, and we have to stop until we have the

housing crisis abated.

GORANI: One last word?

ASHWORTH: Yes, I think it's absolutely clear that the (INAUDIBLE) campaign have lost the argument on the whole question of the economy. They've never

been able to come up with any better model than we have. They've never been able to prove to the British people why they'd be better off. That's

why the (INAUDIBLE) campaign, better, safer - safer, stronger, better off than Europe is the right (INAUDIBLE).

GORANI: Well, we'll know on June 23, what the result is. Richard Ashworth and Harriet Yeo, thanks to both of you for joining us on CNN. We really

appreciate your time. And, we mentioned it in this conversation, the all- important economic argument, businesses are as divided as politicians and the public over whether Britain is better off in or out.



Nina dos Santos has the story.

NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Assembled in Britain by a German company and destined for trains all over the world, these signal

boxes are the embodiment of what the EU means to business. Unfettered access to the largest single trading market anywhere on the planet.

JUERGEN MAIER: The first thing is, is that, quite simply we have access to a huge market, the biggest in the world, 500 million people, that helps our

business here in the U.K. The second is, is, we want to have influence from the U.K. through the European Union to make sure that the standards

and the regulation, that is set for our manufacturing here, suits us, and works for us.

And the third is really, really crucial. And that issue is, is that, we want to participate in European-wide research programs that help us set

what future industries are going to be.

SANTOS: With 14,000 staff across 13 factories like these, (INAUDIBLE) is one of the largest global firms operating inside the U.K. And when it comes

to its views on Europe, turns out, it's not alone. Of those polled, some 78 percent of international companies said they believe a (INAUDIBLE) would

be bad for business, putting into jeopardy the almost $40 billion worth of (INAUDIBLE) direct investment that flows into the country each year.

And Siemens' (ph) views also echo those of big British business, too. A recent survey showed that CEOs have 93 percent of U.K. listed firms,

reckoned that the U.K. was better off remaining inside the EU.

Smaller industry, it seems, sees more value in independence. With 42 percent of its bosses saying that they would vote to leave.

Take Britain's oldest salmon curers, Forman and Sons, which export 90 percent of their fish to non-EU markets, but still have to content with

cumbersome rules and regulations.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE, FORMAN AND SONS SALMON CURERS, BRITAIN: We face a huge amount of red tape and bureaucracy. One of the ridiculous things we had to

do last year was spending thousands upon thousands of pounds printing new packaging for smoked salmon, so that it had a warning sign printed on the

back saying, "Contains fish."

SANTOS: From the production line to the polling booth, bosses of business, big and small, may not see to eye to eye when it comes to the EU. But the

one thing they do want is clarity. They'll get that after June 23.

Nina dos Santos, CNN Money, (INAUDIBLE).


GORANI: Well, you can get all the latest news interviews and analyses from the program on our Facebook page.

Now ahead, how Berlin is trying to prevent possible (INAUDIBLE) and why the vote puts its leaders, I should say, in a tricky position. We'll be right





GORANI: This is (ph) a possible Brexit, but they're choosing their words carefully, for sure of undermining the vote. Chancellor Angela Merkel has

been quiet on the issue, but as Atika Shubert explains, she's finding other ways to help her U.K. counterpart.

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There's a new exhibit in Berlin, showcasing the unity and diversity of the European Union, but this

cheerful campaign video may need some tweaking if Brexit becomes a reality.



SHUBERT: Here in Berlin, politicians are anxious, the public (ph) the news, why do some in the U.K. want to leave an EU that has sought peace and

prosperity for nearly three decades, through free trade, borderless travel and a single currency?

Boris Johnson, Brexit champion and former mayor of London, told the Sunday Telegraph that the attempt to unify Europe under one authority would fail,

then made this comparison, "Neapolitan, Hitler, various people tried this out and it ends tragically," he says, "The EU is an attempt to do this by

different methods."

GORANI: That ruffled a few feathers here in Berlin, but Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel has not responded to or even acknowledged that

statement. She has, however, repeatedly stated that Germany would like the U.K. to remain in the EU, but she said little else in public. And that may

be because Merkel and other EU leaders are mindful that this referendum is also about sovereignty, and the British public may not want to hear the

opinions of other EU leaders no matter how well-intentioned.

Instead, Merkel has acted behind the scenes, helping British Prime Minister David Cameron negotiate for critical EU concessions, lobbying for and

emergency brake on migration flows, for example. But Berlin's greatest fear is that a Brexit off the back of a refugee crisis and a debt crisis,

may be one too many crises for the EU to handle.

Berlin needs strong and wealthy allies to handle the financial and security costs; it can't afford to lose a friend.

Atika Shubert, CNN, Berlin.



GORANI: Well, just over 30 days until this country makes one of the most crucial votes in a generation, and it's on a knife's edge. I'll speak to

the Financial Times London editor to see where we stand as we leave you with more beautiful pictures, aerial shots of Dover.

We'll be right back.




GORANI: All right, welcome. The debate is so heated here you would think the referendum was tomorrow, but that's how passionate people are about

this issue. And even before a date was decided for this referendum, one council decided to have its own vote on Brexit. The result was a

resounding, "Leave."

Kellie Morgan visited the town Romford to see why anti-EU sentiment there is so strong.

KELLIE MORGAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: About an hour's journey northeast of London, you come to Romford. So I come here because according

to a recent poll, this area is the most Euro skeptic in the entire United Kingdom, so we've come to find out from the locals, exactly, why that is.

Romford is famous for its market, which has been the bedrock of the town since the 13th century. It's smaller these days, but the people are fond

of their British traditions.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We call it (INAUDIBLE), we're all on our own, minding our own business.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We (INAUDIBLE). We don't like change, I'm afraid.

MORGAN: This is territory more recently settled by the so-called (INAUDIBLE), independent tradesmen with a no-nonsense, can-do attitude, a

sentiment shared by the man in this van. Jerry Benton (ph) is a member of the European Parliament for the U.K. Independence Party, which has been

leading the charge for a Brexit.

JERRY BENTON (Ph), EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT FOR THE U.K. INDEPENDENCE PARTY: Hello, sir. May I give you a leaflet about the referendum?


BENTON (Ph): OK, thank you. Supposedly that's the answer we wanted.

MORGAN: He's preaching to the converted, but the key question he asks is this.

BENTON (Ph): Do we want to live in a free democratic country or an un- democratic country? The European Commission in Brussels is not elected. We can't sack it so we no longer live in a democracy.

MORGAN: Many of the residents here feel forgotten.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're too concerned with other people and not concerned enough about the Englishman.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's so many different nationalities coming in. Too many. And we need to look after our own people first.



MORGAN: But other voting for a Brexit chasing something that isn't actually what they imagine.

The main argument against a Brexit is the uncertainty that it might create, so we come down here to an East London institution, the local dog track, to

talk to people who are used to weighing out the risks to find out what they think of a future outside of the EU might look like.

When they say it's too risky to leave, what do you think about that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, why is it too risky to leave? What can be gained by saying? How many billion does it cost us to stay?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My own personal opinion is that Britain would definitely be weaker coming out of the European Union.

MORGAN: Positions are more divided at the race track and, more indicative of how the rest of the U.K. is feeling about the referendum.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't really know. It's that close to call, it's too close to call.

Kellie Morgan, CNN, Romford, England.



GORANI: Well, over the past hour, we've explored all the angles of this debate. It's time to take stock. For that, I'm joined from CNN London by

Pierce Spiegel, he's the London editor of the Financial Times, and a former Brussels bureau chief. Peter, thanks for being with us.

On your website, there is a poll to polls tracker, and, although, the two positions are quite close, it does appear as though quite consistently

those who are in favor of remaining in the EU are wining out. Does it appear as though, perhaps, the status quo will win out at this stage

because of the risks of leaving?

PETER SPIEGEL, LONDON EDITOR OF THE FINANCIAL TIMES: (INAUDIBLE) it is too close to call, and, although our poll of polls does, indeed, show remain

ahead, the polls have frankly been all over the place. It depends on if you do an internet-based poll, a phone-based poll,

And in talking to government officials about this, they are very nervous on that, on both sides, that - it is very soft, support is very soft and in

these last two or three weeks, we can see the opinion really sway.

So I think it's really - it is too close to call at this point.

GORANI: And those who are undecided, I mean, what is it exactly that will help people form more definite opinions? Why are there so many undecided a

month out? In some polls, more than 10 percent up to 12 percent of voters still don't know which way they're going to be voting.

SPIEGEL: And this, frankly, has frustrated the government officials, the ministers even, who have been involved in this debate. You know, one

minister said to me, "We keep talking to voters. They keep sending me more information as if there's some stone slab that's going to come down from

heaven and tell them which way to vote.

There is a lot of information out there, and, yet, voters keep saying they need more. So it has really confounded a lot of the experts, a lot of the

ministers, a lot of the campaigners, because that undecided, they feel that all the information presented to them.

And what they're worried about is something unexpected happening. In Brussels, when I was there, they're very worried about Greece, for

instance, blowing up over the next month. Or the refugee crisis blowing up in the next month.

Something unexpected that would really swing public opinion, so because it's so tight - because it's so uncertain, they're really worried about

external events really affecting the voter opinion right now.

GORANI: And what are really - I mean, let's assume a scenario in which Britain votes to leave the EU. What happens then?

SPIEGEL: I mean, every economic study that has been done is that it would be a real shock to the system in Britain. They really would see a huge

dislocation, uncertainty and potentially business moving out of Britain because a lot of the businesses including international businesses that you

featured in some of your program here, base themselves in Britain because of the access to the EU market.

So that would cause some short-term - the longer term - what people seem to forget is how much British law is now tied up with the EU law. By some

estimates, as much as - quarter to a fifth of U.K. law is now EU law.

So you have rewrite almost an entire bit of British legal system. Trade deals have to be renegotiated. I mean, this is something that the

(INAUDIBLE) campaign - they said it can be done in two years, but almost every expert I've talked to, says this is going to take more than a decade.

So it's going to cause medium to long-term disruption in the economy and, frankly, I think in the legal situation and society more broadly, it's

going to be a huge shock.

GORANI: Yes, and what is fueling - I mean - the Leave campaign has quite a lot of support, as were saying, the polls are very close. There are many

undecided. What is it that they are - I mean - what is the message that is resonating from the Leave campaign because it is quite a huge risk to jump

into the unknown of exiting this political and economic union that Britain has been a member of for more than four decades.

SPIEGEL: I mean, there are two or three things, and I think you've highlighted them very well. The immigration debate plays very big in the

view of a lot of the people who are supporting Out. There is a belief that EU - people of other EU countries are coming to Britain, taking their jobs,

in uncontrolled amounts.

We have data that came out today that showed, yet again, another record high has been set in terms of the number of EU migrant workers who have

come to Britain for jobs. That thing plays hugely into the British debate, but frankly, there is a general working-class, you know, grumpiness, to -

for lack of a better word - about the state of the world right now.

We've seen it in Britain. It's sort of expressed in this anti-EU sentiment, but we've seen it in France. We've seen it in The Netherlands.

I think it's the same thing that really driving the Trump campaign, so it is not necessarily a specifically anti-EU thing, it's more anti-elite. The

situation in life right now is really hurting - their wages are not growing, and so they're taking it out on the elites, on Europe and that, I

think also, is really fueling the elite campaign right now.

GORANI: Well, we're seeing that in other countries as well. Peter Spiegel, thanks very much of the Financial Times. We really appreciate

your time.



And before the debate is over, our own Richard Quest will be going on the road to find out what is on voters' minds as they prepare to make their

choice. Take a look.


RICHARD QUEST: The week before the vote, I'll be gallivanting in rustic country, getting the sense of the nation's mood, from the village greens to

the lights of the big cities, over the hills and far away. Join Quest Means Business on the road as voters decide whether to remain in the EU or

to leave - strike out on a new path; the U.K. in our out, (INAUDIBLE).


GORANI: All right, picturesque. This has been the WORLD RIGHT NOW. Thanks for watching. We are in Dover, England. I'm Hala Gorani. We leave

you with more beautiful aerial shots of this city. QUEST MEANS BUSINESS is up next.