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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

EgyptAir Terrorism Theory. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired May 19, 2016 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[12:00:00] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. This is LEGAL VIEW.

And we're going to begin this hour with breaking news of a major commercial airplane crash. Right now the search for answers in the EgyptAir Flight 804 disaster is focused on a spot in the eastern Mediterranean. About 200 miles off the island of Crete. That's where a military plane has spotted two floating objects that may or may not be part of that Airbus 320 that disappeared from radar just seconds after entering Egyptian air space.

Flight 804 was on route from Paris to Cairo. Sixty-six people were on board that plane. And while almost nothing can be said for certain about what happened or how Egyptians say terrorism appears more likely than a technical failure, reality is there are still questions. But the working theory is the possibility of that terror, and that's the case in Washington as well, though U.S. officials tell CNN there were no known threats beforehand and no evidence yet either way. Officials in Greece say the twin engine jet abruptly, quote, swerved, first 90 degrees to the left and then a full 360 degrees to the right before plunging from 37,000 feet down to 10,000 feet, and then completely vanishing.

If it is indeed the work of terrorists, this would be the third commercial plane intentionally downed in the last two years. And our special live coverage this hour begins with my CNN colleague, Arwa Damon, who's live in Cairo, and Elise Labott, who's been working her sources in Washington.

Elise, why are the Americans, at this early stage, suggesting that their theories are pointing towards terror?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ashleigh, as you said, officials are saying that there's no smoking gun. It's really just conjecture at this point. But the circumstantial evidence is leading them to point to the fact that this was likely a bomb. The fact that the plane just fell out of the sky, there was no bad weather, there was no gaping hole. Secretary of State John Kerry, in Brussels, just moments ago, offering his condolences. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: The United States is providing assistance in the search effort and relevant authorities are doing everything they can to try to find out what the facts are of what happened today. I have no more knowledge than others at this point with respect to those facts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LABOTT: But, Ashleigh, the U.S. is working - U.S. intelligence officials working with the Egyptians and the French. That flight did leave Paris for Cairo. Sharing manifests, talking about possible avenues of investigation. But they will be narrowing down, officials tell us, on the ground crew in Paris. That's really sometimes the weakest link, Ashleigh, in terms of these types of investigations and in terms of airport security. They'll also, obviously, be looking at the passengers and the crew. But right now the U.S. saying that they believe that this was likely a terrorist attack, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Stand by, Elise, if you will. I want to get right to Arwa, who is in Egypt right now.

Arwa, there is such a mystery with regard to the path of this plane, not just before it crashed, but before it took off. There are a number of countries that it actually touched on in the 24 hours leading up to what happened. So walk me through why that is significant and where that plane was.

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it stopped in at least two African nations. Among them, Tunisia, and then went on to Paris. But according to what authorities are saying, the plane was swept in Paris. So, presumably, if this was in fact an act of terrorism and if explosives were involved, given that the plane was swept in Paris, authorities either missed something or then it was one of the passengers, crew members, someone else who brought these explosives on to the plane after it was actually swept.

Now, it's not just U.S. officials who are saying that their initial inclination is to lean towards stating this to be an act of terrorism, but in Egypt as well, the country's civil aviation minister is saying that this is more likely to be terrorism than some sort of technical failure. But the bottom line is right now no one really knows for sure. What the authorities are saying is that there was nothing that was raising their suspicions ahead of time. There were no passengers whose pasts led them to be suspicious. There was no cause to think twice about even allowing this plane to take off.

[12:05:05] The other thing that they are looking at very closely was, as you were referring to earlier, the plane's final moment as it was moving from Greek air space into Egyptian air space where it very quickly dropped off the radar and the Egyptians were also very fast, within ten minutes of it dropping off the radar and no one being able to communicate with it, declaring it to be a missing plane.

Where we are right now, Ashleigh, this is where the families were initially brought. And where they were first coming through here, many of them shocked, really trying to come to grips with the news of the various different possibilities. And then as the day went on, much of that shock turning to deep, deep sorrow. Some of them still trying to cling to hope that perhaps their loved ones might still be alive, might have somehow survived this, while others very angry, wanting to know why this happened, of course, wanting to have access to even more information. But a lot of it at this stage still being pieced together.

BANFIELD: Such a sad scene and it is playing out all too often, the minute a plane goes down, there is that location where the families await every shred of information.

Arwa and Elise, thank you for your reporting.

I want to open this up to Michael Weiss, who's a senior editor of "The Daily Beast" and co-author of "ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror," and Ron Stock is an Airbus A320 pilot. It was, of course, an Airbus A320 that is now the subject of this mystery.

Michael, I just want to tap you for your sources. I know that you've been working your sources with regard to the terror connection. Unique reporting from Elise Labott that her U.S. officials telling her that they are leaning towards a bomb theory. What are you hearing?

MICHAEL WEISS, SENIOR EDITOR, "THE DAILY BEAST": Well, what's bizarre about this is, you know, ISIS is not chattering about it. The ISIS fellow travelers, the ISIS official media accounts have not claimed responsibility for it. At this point during the - or right after the Metrojet bombing over Sharm el-Sheikh, they had already taken credit and said, yes, we took it down. Initially it was reported that they'd shot it down with a missile, but we now know it was with an improvised explosive device that was smuggled on board.

So it's still a bit too soon to tell, although I will say France continues to have an enormous bulls-eye over it as a country and as a people by ISIS. I reported at "The Daily Beast" a few weeks ago, the new head of the Amnelkarji (ph), which is the foreign intelligence service of ISIS, is a French national who grew up in Paris. He's of North African dissent. His name is Abu Suleiman al-Karansi (ph). That's the (INAUDIBLE) by which he goes. And this man according to defectors from ISIS, and also informants inside the organization, what - played a central role in the Paris attacks and almost certainly had a role in the Brussels attacks. So this guy comes from France and there is an enormous Francophone network of ISIS agents as we know scattered throughout the continent, but particularly in France and in Belgium. So it would not surprise me in the least if this does turn out to have been an ISIS attack and one that was plotted and perpetrated on European soil.

BANFIELD: And there are many ways that that plotting could play out, Michael. It could be the theory of it being a bomb. And, of course, there is that possibility of a pilot. And that is not a question that a pilot wants to have to answer to.

WEISS: Yes.

BANFIELD: But I do have to ask you, Ron Stock, this is the fear that many people have, especially after Germanwings, which was indeed a co- pilot, and, of course, EgyptAir Flight 990, which the Egyptians will not admit to being a suicide - murder/suicide, but all evidence by American standards points to that. I'd like to get from your perspective, as an Airbus 320 pilot, how difficult this is for your community to realize that the investigation and the microscope is as briskly on the pilots as it will be on everything else.

RON STOCK, AIRBUS A320 PILOT: Well, Ashleigh, as we've seen from the Germanwings situation, a pilot, if he wishes to, can actually fly the aircraft into the ground. The likelihood of somebody getting into the cockpit today is remote. The cockpit door is a robust system, as we've seen from the Germanwings situation. But everything that we've seen so far, it's speculation at best, it leads to a bomb, especially what transpired with the aircraft after the abrupt turns, the 360, it's almost like the tail came off the aircraft. Again, it's speculation at this point and I think once we retrieve the information from the cockpit voice recorder and also the flight data recorder, we'll have a better idea of actually what happened with the aircraft.

[12:10:00] BANFIELD: Let me dig a little deeper into what you just said, that the swerve, the motions of the airplane, the reporting that the plane took a 90 degree turn to the left and then a 360 degree turn to the right, it is critical to know if that is humanly possible for a pilot to fly that pattern in a desperate attempt to rescue a failing airplane or if it is also possible that it's debris that might have been flying in that pattern and registering as something flying in that pattern, as if it maybe could be a full plane or parts of a plane. Give me your theories on both of those issues.

STOCK: OK. First off, Ashleigh, the Airbus has many protections built into it. For instance, it limits the pilot - the bag (ph) handle of the aircraft that a pilot can actually put in. The likelihood - the redundancies that are built into the systems of the Airbus aircraft make it highly unlikely that a mechanical failure caused this incident. Yes, a pilot could go 90 degrees left and make a 360 degree turn, but everything I have heard so far was that they were somewhat abrupt maneuvers, maybe too early to tell. And would a pilot do that? No. Why would a pilot make any of those maneuvers? And if there was, with that said, if there was a problem mechanically with the aircraft, we normally communicate to ATC immediately of the situation.

BANFIELD: And then just that other piece about the timing. And I don't want to get too technical, but I think it will tell us a lot. When we find out the timeline between those banks, the left turn and the right turn, if it's instantaneous, can a pilot swerve that fast with that kind of machine?

STOCK: Look, as I said earlier, this airplane limits, without getting too technical, it limits the bank angle that a pilot can actually put in. Yes, we can make a turn at 37,000 feet. Roll rate, you know, a left 90 and a right 360, I don't know the timeframe that that actually transpired in. We can make those turns, but they would - they would be limited by the aircraft systems as far as rate -

BANFIELD: And when we come back - when we come back, Michael, I want you to think this through - through the break, those countries and the cities that were touched down by this plane before it ended up going to Charles de Gaulle, and there was a sweep. The significance of the sweep happening at Charles de Gaulle, and all the people who are tangential to that action and, of course, the passengers and the crew. I want to ask about the significance of that in this investigation in a moment.

And also coming up next, we're going to dig deeper into the reasons that the American officials believe that it was a bomb that may have taken down that plane.

You can also watch LEGAL VIEW at any time, cnn.com/go. Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:17:13] BANFIELD: We've got more breaking news to report to you, and this is very sad news to report. CBS News legend Morley Safer has died at the age of 84. His work on "60 Minutes" embodied the show's 50 years on air. And he was the longest serving correspondent in that show's history. CBS just announced Safer's retirement last week. And at the same time Safer said, quote, "it's been a wonderful run, but the time has come to say good-bye."

Again, CBS News legend Morley Safer, the news coming he has died at the age of 84, just one week after his retirement.

I'm going to take you back to our breaking news on this tragedy that's developing. EgyptAir Flight 804, right now the early believe of U.S. government officials was that this indeed was terrorism. It is a theory, but the theory involves a bomb. A bomb that took down a plane carrying 66 people, 56 of them passengers and ten of them crew. The U.K. and France both helping Egypt in its search now for debris and, of course, hopefully survivors.

And we can report this, floating objects have been found in the sea 210 nautical miles just southeast of the island of Crete, but no one can be sure at this point if they are parts of this missing plane. A technical problem not completely ruled out at this time, but Egypt's civil aviation minister is echoing the United States' theory that it is more likely terrorism than a mechanical bomb.

And, again, you can stress, if it is indeed the work of terrorists, this would be the third commercial plane intentionally downed in just the past two years.

I want to bring in CNN aviation analyst Mary Schiavo and former inspector general for the U.S. Department of Transportation. So a lot of knowledge Mary has on this. CNN's safety analyst and former FAA safety inspector David Soucie is with us. And CNN intelligence and security analyst Bob Baer, a former CIA operative, is live with us as well. And CNN contributor Michael Weiss has stayed with us. He's the co-author of "ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror."

Mary, I want to first go to you with this idea that Charles de Gaulle Airport was the last place that this plane had been before it disappeared out of the sky. It was on route to Cairo, yes, but it had been swept at Charles de Gaulle. And I - it just brings us back to the stories that we've heard about the security issues with Charles de Gaulle and the changes they have just recently made there. Tell me about that airport and why now the scrutiny will point to specifics about what's happened in the past few months there.

[12:20:03] MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, many of the criticisms in that airport come not just from suspicions about things, but things that have actually been found and disclosed. For example, 57 people they found with ties to ISIS or other terror groups. You know, the reporting on that was a little unusual because they didn't say that they were fired and investigated or prosecuted. You know, in the United States you cannot have ties to the terror group. That - those links are investigated and prosecuted. Instead, the news we got out of that airport is that their security badges were lifted and several dozen were fired. It didn't say everyone was. And there wasn't a lot of information that came out.

And then one of the participants in the Brussels and Paris bombings had purchased 10 detonators from a source near Paris. So there are a lot of things that point to suspicions to the airport. And when you sweep the plane, by the way, it's the overnight maintenance and it's the overnight staff, where you do a more through sweep. As you stop at various airports along your day, what is more - a better way to describe it is you do kind of a walk around and you do look for obvious, you know, obvious problems, et cetera. But at Charles de Gaulle Airport, there was graffiti on the plane, including "Allah Akbar" written on a - a fuel pumper (ph). So that's why there's suspicion at the Charles de Gaulle Airport right now.

BANFIELD: Michael Weiss, I'd love you to bounce off that, just the notion that the investigation will be so quick - I can only assume it began within moments of learning this plane had disappeared - of everybody who had access to the plane, to the tarmac, the staff, the crew, the pilots and then, of course, the manifest of the passengers. This is a massive forensic operation.

WEISS: And, remember, with the Metrojet bombing, ISIS said, look, we managed to smuggle some guy into the airport at Sharm el Sheikh. He infiltrated the security and the transport sector of Egypt, and that's how that bomb was put into the fuel line. It was a soda can filled with an explosive material.

If this is the case, then France has got a major, major problem on its hands. If jihadists or terrorists of any stripe, for that matter, can infiltrate Charles de Gaulle Airport and work as technicians or, God forbid, as flight crew or even a pilot, then, you know, you're talking about the deep penetration of European society by dangerous international criminals. And, again, I mean we've seen this already. The Paris attack, you know, the Brussels attack, these were - these were native sons of Europe. And as I mentioned in the earlier segment, you know, what is happening internally within ISIS? And, again, we don't know that this was ISIS, but it looks to me probable that it was, or al Qaeda, but within ISIS it's the Europeanization of the organization. It is bifurcating into two separate groups. One is the caliphate or state building project that is waging the war in Syria and Iraq and also exporting it to the Wiliets (ph) in the Middle East. But the other arm or the other group is people from Europe who are ascending in the ranks of their security services, being relied upon by ISIS high command, by the Shira (ph) council, to plot and conceptualize and carry out these terrorist attacks because they know the terrain in Europe better than anybody. They are Europeans.

BANFIELD: And some - and some of them are homegrown. You're right, they are European.

WEISS: This could be an absolutely frightening development. Yes. Absolutely.

BANFIELD: So, I do want to bring that - I want to bring that theory to David Soucie, because, David, with the timeline of this disappearance, there is something that you have brought up that sounded strange, and that was the fact that the pilot stopped responding before all of the signals were actually lost. Most people would think, if there was something catastrophic, the signals would blow and then you'd ask for the pilots and you wouldn't hear from them. But this is the opposite. There was no contact with pilots and then the signals went out. Is that - you know, I'm going to ask you to hold your thought on that. I'm going to take you right away to the White House. There's a live briefing. Josh Earnest is briefing from the press room.

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Must be experiencing right now. It's painful to even contemplate. The president, as you all are aware, has received multiple updates from his national security team on this situation. U.S. national security and aviation experts have been in touch with their counterparts in France and Egypt to offer assistance. Many of you all have probably also seen the announcement from the Department of Defense that the United States Navy is working to deploy a P-3 Orion aircraft to provide support for the search of the missing jetliner.

At this point, Darlene (ph), to go straight to your question, it's too early to definitively say what may have caused this disaster. The investigation is underway. And investigators will consider all of the potential factors that could have contributed to the crash. And, obviously, if there is an opportunity for the United States government to support those efforts, then we will do that. And the president asked his team to keep him apprised of developments as they occur.

[12:25:15] QUESTION: Switching topics to Puerto Rico and the legislation on The Hill, the agreement on a new bill, is there any reaction from the White House?

EARNEST: Well, the administration has made clear for several months now that any legislation to address the crisis in Puerto Rico must provide a workable and comprehensive restructuring authority -

BANFIELD: All right, Josh Earnest is taking a right turn off of this air disaster that we're following.

And, David Soucie, if I can get you to come back in on that question, the mystery of the - if you're just joining us, it's a simple question. The pilots couldn't be reached before the plane seemed to disappear. Is there something to this?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, had it happened just before the airplane started to veer off, it wouldn't have been as suspect. But the fact it was 90 seconds they tried to reach him, they couldn't reach them, they were not responding for 90 seconds, that doesn't seem like much time when you do it in terms of seconds. But in that amount of time, there is plenty of time for them to respond, to click on the microphone saying - which in an emergency, we've listened to several of these tapes, many of these tapes in the past, and in an emergency, typically the pilot can at least take time to say stand by or complex problem stand by. And those are the typical responses you'd see. We got none of that. It just immediately went from no response to this varying of the aircraft as though it had lost control.

BANFIELD: I mean, Bob Baer, this is - I feel like it's deja vu all over again. With MH370, so many of these same questions were asked and the circumstances were somewhat similar, although we're very early in this particular air disaster. But the significance of where it disappeared, it was ten minutes into Egyptian air space. And if that is a coincidence, then it's a coincidence. If it is not a coincidence, is there anyone else on board a plane that could know when you're in a certain air space so that they could exact their terror if that were the case? Or is it solely the information inside the cockpit?

BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: It's the information inside the cockpit. I think what worries us all now is this was put on by ground staff in Paris And these bombs can vary. They can have barometric switches on them so when they start to descend in Egyptian airspace, they're triggered. It could have - combined with a timer. And, by the way, it just takes a few ounces of explosives in a cockpit, under the control panel. You lose control of the airplane. These planes are obviously not guarded at night. Paris, Charles de Gaulle, as well as (INAUDIBLE), the people are not completely vetted there. There's a lot of North Africans working at these place.

And the French have been very worried about this a long time. But not until you actually - if this was a bomb, not until you actually find the detonator will we understand why it went off at that point. It sounds to me the fact that the pilots were communicating with the Greek air controllers, you know, in a very pleasant conversation, it doesn't sound like a suicide operation to me on the part of the pilots, like the 1999 downing of EgyptAir. But, again, we're going to have to wait for the forensics and it looks like we're going to find it. They've seen some pieces in the water. But this is very worrying because American airplanes flying out of Charles de Gaulle will also be at risk.

BANFIELD: Well, trying to find the trigger will be critical, but it will take second priority to finding survivors. We are still within 24 hours of this disaster and there are search and rescue teams.

I'm going to thank Mary Schiavo, David Soucie, Bob Baer and Michel Weiss for your expertise on this.

But coming up, as we look further into this crash investigation and what's turned up so far in the search area, where EgyptAir Flight 804 disappeared, the critical question is, is it possible to survive something like this? If it did indeed crash into the Mediterranean, could there be anyone still alive that they could find? Back after this.

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