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Wolf

Terrorism Believed Responsible for EgyptAir Flight 804 Crash; Start of Interview with Hillary Clinton. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired May 19, 2016 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:30:50] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Just a reminder, coming up in a few minutes, later this hour, an exclusive interview with Democratic presidential front runner Hillary Clinton, talking about the race for t White House, Bernie Sanders, Donald Trump, today's breaking news, the loss of EgyptAir flight 804. Chris Cuomo standing by to interview Hillary Clinton, live. That's coming up later this hour.

Meanwhile, let's get back to breaking news. The vice president of EgyptAir says wreckage of the plane has been located and he noted it is now a search-and-recovery mission, which usually means no remaining hope of finding survivors. Not a search-and-rescue operation. He said they would release more details. That's coming up as well.

If this is found to have been an act of terrorism, it would be the fourth commercial plane intentionally downed in the past two years.

Joining us live from Paris where the flight originated is our senior international correspondent, Atika Shubert.

Atika, Charles de Gaulle Airport in Paris, where the flight started, that's where you are. French investigators launched an investigation. Tell us specifically what you are hearing from them. What are they looking into?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the key link here is what personnel had access to the plane before it took off. They will be looking at ground crew, baggage handlers, catering, anybody who might have had access to the plane. They have already taken security steps in the wake of the terrorist attacks in November and the Brussels attacks, and they specifically triple-checked a number of personnel and actually removed about 70 personnel from both the Charles de Gaulle Airport and another airport that they feared may have links to radical Islamists. And they removed them, took away security badges and rescreened thousands of other employees. So that was already the state of alert before the airplane went missing. Now they are looking at the very specific people who might have had access to the plane. That is the first point of investigation. The most critical clues will come from the wreckage. But this is where the investigation will begin.

BLITZER: What I hear you saying is, Atika, they are questioning the people who had access to that EgyptAir plane before it took off from Cairo? SHUBERT: Absolutely. They will be looking at records, interviewing

people, seeing where they were, what time, what they did. Just to give you an idea of what happens behind the scenes, you know how you go through airport security, you're not allowed to take on any liquids, your laptop is checked and everything? Same goes for employees that go into that secured area. In addition to that, they have their personal lockers searched. So there is a lot of extra security that goes on here behind the scenes, just to give you a sense of how tight the security is here -- Wolf?

BLITZER: I'm sure there is video that they are looking at to see who may have had access to that plane at the same time.

Atika, stand by. We will get back to you.

For more reaction from the Egyptian government, I want to bring back our panel once again. Here in New York, Boeing 777 captain, contributing editor for "Flying" magazine, Les Abend; and in Washington, our aviation analyst, Peter Goelz, former managing director of National Transportation Safety Board; and joining us from Brussels, our CNN terrorism analyst, Paul Cruickshank.

Paul, how big -- let's say this was a bomb. We have no idea. But the suspicion is it could have been a bomb placed on the plane. But to destroy a plane and force a plane to explode very quickly how big of a bomb would that have to be? How do you get a bomb like that on a plane?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, Wolf, not big at all. In fact, ISIS in Sinai claim the bomb that took down the Russian last year was no bigger than a soda can. So you can get powerful explosives into a small container and can have the power to bring down a plane at high altitude because of the pressure differentials.

In terms of getting a bomb on to a plane it's become much more difficult for terrorists because state-of-the-art technology is really quite good at detecting explosives. But the worry is that the terrorists are always innovative and trying to come up with a method to get past airport security. We have seen that from al Qaeda in Yemen. Ibrahim al Asiri, (ph), developing new generations of shoe bombs, underwear devices, and experimenting the group with trying to implant bombs into human beings, according to recent intelligence. Al Qaeda leading the way with the research when it comes to trying to beat airport security.

So what terrorist groups are looking increasingly to do is to recruit airport insiders like we saw with the Sharm el Shaikh attack to help them try to get a bomb on a plane. Also, the case for that attack in a Somali airliner in February of this year when a bomb went off on board that plane. A sophisticated laptop bomb was used by al Qaeda in that case. So there is arm's race going on between the terrorists on the one side and people working in explosives to trace detection on the other sides.

BLITZER: We know that small soda can-sized bomb that blew up the metro jet, the Russian plane that took off from Sharm el Shaikh, heading towards Russia, killed 224 people last year.

Peter, this is a sensitive issue. I know you have been very personally involved in investigating EgyptAir going back to '99 when the EgyptAir plane crashed off of Nantucket here in the United States. You concluded, as NTSB investigator, it was pilot suicide. But to this day, the Egyptians don't accept that, right?

PETER GOELZ, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: That's correct. They did not accept our conclusion that the co-pilot had deliberately flew that plane into the ocean.

BLITZER: Which raises the question, Peter, how confident are you, if Egypt is leading this investigation, we get a full picture of what happened?

GOELZ: I have been very impressed over the past 24 hours about how forthcoming the Egyptians have been on this investigation. They were the first out of the gate to even mention the term "terrorism." Their statement by the vice president of EgyptAir was forthcoming. The prime minister was forthcoming. I think they are taking a much different approach to this event than they did to EgyptAir in 1999.

BLITZER: Les, how confident are you we will find out fairly soon what happened?

LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, I share Peter's thoughts. The Egyptians in '99, it went against all facts that the NTSB has. Yes, I think there are parties to the investigation that should make it, let's say, more of a democracy from the standpoint of following standards for accident investigation. Am I confident that EgyptAir will come out with that? They seem to be pointing the blame at terrorism because it doesn't direct at themselves at this point in time. But let's see where the investigation goes at this point in time. Let's pick up the wreckage and see what is there.

BLITZER: Based on the fact that the plane made a left turn and then a right turn, 360 degrees, and went from 37,000 feet and went right into the Mediterranean, what does that indicate to you?

ABEND: My gut feeling is that the crew was not in control of that aircraft. That is my gut feel. Were they attempting to get control of the aircraft? Possibly. But it says to me -- the Airbus is designed to prevent, for instance, a bank angle more than 35 degrees. It won't let a pilot roll into a bank more than 35 degrees, unless you disable part of the system. It is curious why that would be happening in addition to the altitude drop. It's very curious to me.

BLITZER: Paul Cruickshank, what does it say to you, the timing of this incident, if it was some sort of terror incident? What does it say to you about why now?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, it would be because they are ready to go. They had a plan and a device that they can get on board aircrafts in some kind of way. Aviation is the Holy Grail for terrorist groups because it gets you in the global headlines and has a huge economic impact. France and Egypt are both in the crosshairs of terrorist groups. But I have to say, Wolf, there has been no claim of responsibility at

all from any terrorist group and no credible claim of responsibility. ISIS has put out all sorts of other statements and other operations in Syria and Iraq, but there has been a deafening silence when it comes to the attack. The same applies to al Qaeda. If this is terrorism, I would expect that to change rather quickly. Right now, nothing at all.

BLITZER: Right now, no one has claimed responsibility. How unusual is that? Sometimes they wait a day or two or three before they claim responsibility. And it also raises the possibility, Paul, if you can quickly answer, that of some sort of lone wolf may have been responsible. Go ahead.

[13:40:22] CRUICKSHANK: Well, in the past, we have seen them take quite a long time to get claims of responsibility out. But we are now living in the Twitter age, the social media age. The terrorist groups have plenty of access to these online social media sites. They can get a claim out pretty quickly. It may come out later today. We don't know. We are obviously monitoring all of that very closely, indeed. But this kind of tactic to get a bomb on to a plane, you are looking at a more sophisticated capability, more organized terrorist group than a lone wolf. We have not seen lone wolves being able to manage this kind of attack when it comes to aviation.

BLITZER: All right, Paul, everyone, stand by.

Also coming up, we are standing by to hear from the Democratic presidential front runner, Hillary Clinton. She is going to weigh in on the EgyptAir disaster, Donald Trump, the race for the White House. Her exclusive interview with our own Chris Cuomo, that will air live, coming up within the next few minutes, as well.

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[13:45:47] BLITZER: Turning now to the presidential race here in the United States, CNN's Chris Cuomo is about to interview Hillary Clinton in a live one-on-one interview, exclusive right here on CNN. The former secretary of state is only 88 delegates away from clinching the Democratic presidential nomination, if you include the super delegates. But Senator Bernie Sanders has made it clear he is by no means giving up the fight. Does Bernie Sanders hurt Hillary Clinton by staying in the race? And what about the very serious divide within the Democratic Party right now?

Let's go live to Chicago. CNN's Chris Cuomo standing by -- Chris?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, you are outlining the right issues. Let's get the questions together and see if we can get answers.

Thank you very much, Secretary Clinton. It's good to have you, as always.

HILLARY CLINTON, (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

CLINTON: Welcome to my home town.

CUOMO: Thank you very much. This is a very warm reception here.

And you have come home and yet the problems of the world are upon us. Once again, we see in the headlines EgyptAir. They are finding debris in Greek waters. Greek authorities, Egyptian authorities all saying that they believe this was terror as much as anything else. They're not there investigatively yet, but that's the theory. It is a reminder to people not just the loss of these families but somehow the loss in the battle against terror. What is your message and what do you believe the response should be to make something like this less likely?

CLINTON: Well, Chris, it does appear that it was an act of terrorism, exactly how, of course, the investigation will have to determine. But it once again shines a very bright light on the threats that we face from organized terror groups. ISIS, of course, but then there are other networks of terrorists that have to be hunted down and defeated. And I think it reinforces the need for American leadership, for the kind of smart steady leadership that only America can provide, in working with our allies, partners, friends in Europe, Middle East and elsewhere. Because we have to have a concerted effort that brings to bear both domestic resources, sharing of intelligence, take a hard look at airport security one more time, whatever needs to be done must be done. The world depends on air travel. We can't allow it to be interrupted or people be intimidated. And to continue to take the fight, although it needs to be more intensified against ISIS, from where it is running its operations in Syria and Iraq. So we have to really go along with the kind of plan that I have been outlining for months, which is we will defeat them on the ground using our air power, equipping and training and supporting Arab and Kurdish fighters. We will drive them out of Iraq, drive them out of their Syria. We are going to intensify cooperation among those nations that have a direct stake, which I would argue is just about every nation right now, but principally European, Arab, Middle Eastern. We will take them on online and we are going to intensify our intelligence and law enforcement cooperation.

CUOMO: The criticism is that the Obama administration, with you as a part of it, and when you were not a part of it, have been making this case, we're going to attack on every front. The world seems to be getting worse. It seems that the threat is greater than our ability to defend, protect and respond to it. Do you believe that things are worse now than they were seven, eight years ago?

CLINTON: I think we have to take a historic view of this. We have been able to defeat, in large measure, al Qaeda, which was our principle adversary, responsible for the worst terrorist attack on our shores, and terrible ones in Europe. We have to deal with the threats as they come. But I think we have learned a lot more. And we are really grappling with and I think succeeding at making it more difficult for them to operate from their strongholds. What we not have to also pay a lot of attention to is the literally thousands of people who left Europe, went to Syria and/or Iraq, or are in Turkey or somewhere else, connected to ISIS or one of other terrorist networks that are part of the overall threat. We have to work more closely and we have to really convince forcefully the Europeans that they have to do much more, as well. When I was secretary of state, we were in a constant dialogue with the Europeans because we wanted information about travel manifests for airlines flying across the ocean towards us. It took a while. We finally got it. They have a lot of concerns about privacy and other legitimate issues. But right now, we are in an environment where we have to put everything we can towards the goal of defeating ISIS, protecting ourselves, our friends and our partners.

[13:50:51] CUOMO: How do you fight the perception that we look weak? Trump this morning was out hot and early on Twitter when this happened saying, "Looks like another act of terror. More proof that we're weak. We have to be strong. And there's hate and anger out there." He's channeling the perception that a situation like this fuels, which is we are weak. They can take our planes when they want. The Russians, the Chinese, they can scare our military when they want and America does nothing. How do you answer that?

CLINTON: Well, first of all, he says a lot of things. He says that lot of things that are provocative, that actually make the important task of building this coalition, bringing everybody to the table and defeating terrorism more difficult.

CUOMO: Why?

CLINTON: Well, for example, when he says bar all Muslims from coming to the United States, that sends a signal to majority Muslim nations, many of whom we have to work with to defeat terrorism, some of whom are already among our strongest allies in this fight, it sends a message of disrespect. And it sends a message that makes the situation inside those countries more difficult for them to go all in the way we need them to go all in.

CUOMO: To the Americans, that message resonates with, where they say, well, these attackers always seem to be Muslim and they're coming in here. And Comey, who is in charge of vetting them, says he can't vet them. Trump calls for a temporary ban. It seems to make sense to people. Does it make sense to you?

CLINTON: No, not at all. Let's remember what he called for and to sort of break it up. He said all Muslims should be barred from coming in the United States. All Muslims, Nobel Peace Prize winners, entertainers, sports stars, you name it, the new mayor from London. When confronted with the new mayor from London, who, as you may know, is the first Muslim elected to be mayor of London by the people of London, he said, I'll make an exception for him. The whole approach is provocative and wrong-headed. And look at what he's done just in the last week. He has attacked our closest ally, Great Britain. He has praised the reckless dictator in North Korea. He has said we should pull out of NATO, our strongest military alliance. He's advocated for more countries having nuclear weapons. That kind of unpredictable, dangerous rhetoric and the policies thrown out there for whatever hope he has to get people to respond to him make us less likely that we're going to be as effective as we need to be going forward in assuaging the concerns of people that we want to be working with us to deal with this threat. And we have been effective in beginning to kill off the leadership of ISIS, to go after their funding sources, to make it very clear that we're going to keep training the Iraqi army. They have taken back Ramadi. We'll support them to take back every part of the territory, most importantly Mosul that ISIS has seized. So we are making progress. Our biggest concern, and I think if this turns out to be an act of terror, with a flight coming from Paris, our biggest concern is what's going on in Europe. And that is something that we do have to address and deal with, with all of our partners, and that's going to require even closer cooperation.

CUOMO: Let me ask you, do you think that Donald Trump is qualified to be president?

CLINTON: No. I do not. And I think in this past week, whether it's attacking Great Britain, praising the leader of North Korea, a despotic dictator who has nuclear weapons, whether it is saying pull out of NATO, let other countries have nuclear weapons, the kinds of positions he is stating and the consequences of those positions and even the consequences of his statements, are not just offensive to people, they are potentially dangerous.

[13:55:09] CUOMO: How so?

CLINTON: Well, as I mentioned --

CUOMO: Politicians talk, Madame Secretary.

CLINTON: Well --

CUOMO: They say things, and then when they get in office, people believe nothing will be that different.

CLINTON: Well, when you run for president of the United States, the entire world is listening and watching. So when you say, we're going to bar all Muslims, you are sending a message to the Muslim world, and you're also sending a message to the terrorists, because we now do have evidence, we have seen how Donald Trump is being used to essentially be a recruiter for more people to join the cause of terrorism. So, I think if you go through many of his irresponsible, reckless, dangerous comments, it's not just somebody saying something off the cuff. We all misstate things and may not be as careful phrasing what we say. This is a pattern, a pattern going on now for months. And it's a pattern that adds up, in my opinion, having watched presidents, having seen the incredibly difficult work that they do and the decisions that they have to make, the thinking that goes in sitting in the situation room, do we go after bin Laden or not, I was part of that. Was it a clear, easy choice? Of course not. Did it have to be carefully parsed and analyzed? And then we gave our opinions and up to the president to decide. I know how hard this job is. And I know that we need steadiness as well as strength and smarts in it. And I have concluded he is not qualified to be president of the United States.

CUOMO: You don't think Donald Trump could make that call in that room about whether or not to go after bin Laden? CLINTON: Based on what we know now, he could make it perhaps on

evidence that wasn't clear. He could say a lot of things that might have given notice. I mean, you just -- based on the way he has behaved and spoken and the policies she has literally thrown out there, I think it adds up to a very troubling picture.

CUOMO: So you get into the general election, if you're the nominee for your party.

CLINTON: I will be the nominee for my party, Chris. That's already done, in effect. There's no way I won't be.

CUOMO: There's a Senator of Vermont who has a different take on that.

CLINTON: Well --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: He says he'll fight to the end.

CLINTON: Yeah.

CUOMO: There seems to be a change here. As Donald Trump is trying to galvanize his party, the Democratic Party seems to be going the other way. His supporters have become more aggressive, feeling that the system is rigged against the Senator. We saw what happened in Nevada. When you saw that, did you believe that Sanders responded the right way to that situation?

CLINTON: Well, I was very disturbed by what went on there. But I am confident --

CUOMO: With him or by his supporters?

CLINTON: Well, what we saw. What we saw there.

CUOMO: The supporters?

CLINTON: Well, what we saw was disturbing. And I have every confidence we're going to be unified. I understand --

CUOMO: Where's that confidence come?

CLINTON: Well, in part, from my own experience. I went all the way to the end against then-Senator Obama. I won nine out of the last 12 contests. Back in '08, I won Indiana, Kentucky, West Virginia. So I know the intense feelings that arise, particularly among your supporters as you go towards the end. But we both were following the same rules, just as both Senator Sanders and I are following the same rules. And I'm three million votes ahead of him and I have an insurmountable lead in pledged delegates. And I'm confident that just as I did with Senator Obama, where I said, you know what, it was really close, much closer, much closer than it is between me and Senator Sanders right now.

CUOMO: Votes-wise? CLINTON: Yeah. Vote-wise and delegate-wise. I said, in fact, if you

-- depending on how you evaluate, I had more popular votes but I had fewer delegates. And the name of the game is the delegates you have. Right? So when I came out and withdrew and endorsed Senator Obama, about 40 percent, according to polls, about 40 percent of my supporters said they would never support him. So I worked really hard to make the case, as I'm sure Senator Sanders will, that whatever differences we might have, they pale in comparison to the presumptive nominee of the Republican Party. Name an issue you care about, domestic or international, and we clearly we are much closer, Senator Sanders supporters and mine, than either of us is with Donald Trump.

CUOMO: Why don't you reach out directly to Senator Sanders and do the work of reunification of the party, however you want to see it? I ask this because Senator Sanders said to me in the past, and so many others, it is not my job to get my supporters to vote for Hillary Clinton. But Clinton has to make the case to these supporters. And given what you're seeing with this increase in hostility --