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Incident at White House Examined. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired May 20, 2016 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PHILLIP MUDD, COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: -- if there's an event there that's much more significant than something happening outside. This city is just couple hundred yards, as you know, outside the white house. Major urban areas, a lot of activity, a lot of shopping. Where this incident happened the difference between something happening on 17th St. and West. Executive Ave. is what I'd be focused on. That's really hugely different.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN: When he says, and this is from two different agencies. Shots on White House grounds, or near White House grounds.

MUDD: Yes.

BALDWIN: Have you heard of something like this before?

MUDD: Well, sure. We've had White House fence jumpers before.

BALDWIN: Fence jumpers?

MUDD: That's right. Around there - -

BALDWIN: Firing a gun?

MUDD: I served in the White House. The FBI is not far away. The Hoover building. That's a densely populated urban area. A lot of foot traffic going through there. Not only towards, but all kinds of standard urban traffic going through that environment. If somebody said there was a shot two blocks away, and we find out three hours from now it's unrelated. I don't think that's huge significant. West Executive Avenue would be - - how did somebody get on the compound with a weapon question? Who was it that got a pass to visit and carried a weapon to this environment.

BALDWIN: We are talking West Executive Avenue. John, let me just bring it back in. You are sort of, right now hold up inside this briefing room as protocol right now.

Again if you're just joining us, reports of a shooting on or near White House grounds. The president is not on property but - - Joe, Pennsylvania Avenue, Lafayette Park on the backside of the house. Can you just walk our viewers through what's in that general vicinity?

JOE JOHNS, SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Right, well it's a large complex. As you said Lafayette Park across the street from the White House. As you walk your way around you see the old Eisenhower executive office building. Obviously we have the West Wing on the grounds. It's a fairly large area and there is activity here from time to time. We have that situations with fence jumpers, even people. One man walking over the fence and into the house. Which caused a great deal of concern. The Secret Service clearly taking all this very seriously. Looking out the windows here I have seen guns drawn. An air of real seriousness here. Nonetheless I cannot tell you how to reconcile those reports of a shooting. It doesn't say the song was shot, it just says - - I mean the indication to me from covering law enforcement is that at least shots were fired. Either around 17th and E streets or along the West Executive Drive.

Anybody's guess at this point, waiting to hear from the Secret Service. I did see a couple of people walk outside the door here. It does not appear that we are confined inside the White House proper at this time. Waiting to hear from officials what they say happened, Brooke.

OK, Joe John's will stand by and as soon as we get anything from the Secret Service will get you to pass that along.

Miles O'Brien is here CNN aviation analyst. I'm going to ask you to pivot as well, just as far as I'm thinking, I don't know aviation in and around the vicinity of the White House. Surveillance, how can they all had to this?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: I always think about 1994 when a Cessna 150 flew right into the White House during the Clinton years. It was a suicide mission by a disturbed individual.

Since that time there has been steady increase in the perimeter around the White House. It's not too long ago that you can drive your car right down Pennsylvania Avenue. Right in front of the White House.

Those days are long gone and there's talk now of increasing the size of the fence. Of course we're talking about a complete no fly zone over the city of Washington DC since 9/11. That was always prohibited airspace anyway. That's been extended and enforced in a more significant way.

Phil might be able to comment, I don't know if it's okay to comment about some of the defensive measures that are on the White House will go after this kind of thing.

BALDWIN: I was just thinking recently, I was just at the White House recently, you know you see the sniper on the roof and in the vicinity can you talk a little bit about that?

MUDD: There's a debate going on in Washington right now about the defense measures. Obviously you're talking about a national monument here. The debate right now is should we extend the fences up?

I Mentioned earlier there's been fence jumpers over time and where seen as people get pretty close including inside the White House. An embarrassment for the Secret Service. The number of people who are walking within that environment, and going through the White House tours is pretty high. I think the question is not going to be just how do we expand the perimeter, how do we ensure we prevent drones from flying over. That's also been a problem in the past year or two. What are we doing about tours going into that facility, which was shut down after 9/11. Now as we're into the security environment Isis, what do you do to keep people out of the facility?

BALDWIN: Let me hit pause on this conversation, were going to take a 90-second commercial break.

Again, if you're just joining us here we have pictures up at the White House because there are reports of a possible shooting on or near White House grounds. 17th and E streets or along W. Executive Dr., which is a secure area.

We are waiting to hear more from the Secret Service. The president is not on property, not on property.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Back with the breaking news here, from the White House. As we've learned of shots fired in or around the White House property. Again, let me reiterate, the President is not on the property.

This is what we just got. A suspect that allegedly opened fire on the White House complex is down and in custody according to a law enforcement source.

Joe Johns, you are there in the briefing room. Joe Johns, do we know if this person was on White House grounds, or firing into White House grounds?

JOHNS: The report we have coming out from CNN's Peter Morris says. A suspect allegedly opened fire on the White House complex, is down and in custody. According to a law enforcement official.

The question of course is, whether that individual was himself, or herself on the White House complex grounds? Or outside the White House complex grounds shooting in?

It's the kind of situation that we have seen years and years ago when I worked for another network. Someone outside the grounds shooting outside the White House. That's a possibility.

The more serious question is if there was actually someone inside the complex? Inside that area on W. Executive Dr. where invitees and people with passes are generally only allowed. The question right now is, level of security breach? What was this person doing?

It seems quite clear that person is down according to a law enforcement source reported by our Peter Morris. A lot of questions remain nonetheless. It sounds from this report that the situation is becoming secure.

That's about what we know right now and not going to venture off into the area of speculation. Brooke, we still don't know whether this individual was off the grounds shooting in, or somehow inside the grounds shooting around.

BALDWIN: OK, Joe thank you so much. That was exactly the question you had right? You just don't have - - we don't have the answer.

MUDD: That's right and if it's outside the grounds - - for those not familiar with Washington DC, the amount of pedestrian traffic outside that - -

BALDWIN: Huge.

MUDD: - - is huge.

BALDWIN: People taking photos, walking by.

MUDD: Yes, yes. Somebody says that a person with a weapon fired onto the compound from outside. I would not call that a security breach. It's not only forced, there's restaurants, a lot of social activity around the, Playhouse houses, force theater is near their. Let's wait till we see what we've got here. A lot of activity around the.

BALDWIN: When You hear, this is an officer describing the White House as condition red. Does that mean anything to you?

MUDD: All it means is as soon as somebody hears there is an incident, involve the weapon. If you're a security professional on compound you're not going to sit there and evaluate what's going on and say should I wait? Some version, some tearing process.

You are going to say, we are going to red right away because I don't know what happened yet. I'm not going to take any chances during the time it might take 5 minutes, it might take 20 minutes, during the time it takes me to figure this out. Remember what we had, this is by the way, in Boston when the police

chief says, hey I can't take a chance when we have the Boston bombings and were hunting for the bombers. I'm shutting down the entire city. People can blame at the moment but in retrospect it's the right choice to take these kind of precautions.

BALDWIN: Is that what happens? What's protocol immediately when this condition red is called? When some sort of incident, whether or not the individual was off or on property? Shots fired. What immediately happens on grounds?

MUDD: I haven't been there for condition red, but having been evacuated on 9/11 from the White House office building, you can have security professionals securing the entire compound.

We had on that day a special forces moving around their preventing us from going back. I was prevented from going back down to the White House compound.

This is a standard process when you get a shooting incident. Secret Service practices this all the time. Shutdown people and places and secure the perimeter.

BALDWIN: Is there - - the fact that we know the president is not on grounds. Is that a difference in protocol? Based on whether or not the president's home?

MUDD: To my mind there shouldn't be much difference here. I don't know who else is on there but remember you got the west wing there. That's national security advisor. All kinds of security officials involved with the national Security Council. His staff is there regardless of whether he is there or not. Including press people and the press office.

BALDWIN: OK. If we still have Joe Johns. Do we still have Joe guys? That's a no. OK.

But, we do have Tom Fuentes who is joining us now. Former director of the FBI with us here at CNN. Tom Fuentes.

Again, the news, a suspect allegedly opened fire on the White House complex is down and in custody according to law enforcement source. How do you read this?

TOME FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That's great. I'm surprised he got that far. I think I heard Phil mentioning it earlier that, they would have gone through the secure area to get on the White House grounds. It's going to be very interesting to find out if somebody, fence jumped from the other side with a gun? Or how they actually gained access to the facility iIn the first place. We will find that out I'm sure, in the near future here.

BALDWIN: What are the other questions you have Tom?

FUENTES: I think if a person is on the ground there and they attack Secret Service, that's actually going to be an FBI investigation. To look into that, an attack on a federal officer is FBI primary jurisdiction.

It will be interesting to see what comes up in the next few hours with the investigation. With the response to this. In this particular case FBI headquarters is only about six blocks

away at Ninth and Pennsylvania. The FBI field office is at Fourth, close to Pennsylvania, so they'll have agents responding there to investigate the whole thing.

BALDWIN: Let's talk about - - we don't even know where this happened. According to Joe, two different law enforcement agencies. Two different areas in the vicinity of the White House. One being 17th and E St. The other being W. Executive Drive.

To Joel and Phil's points that the security area. You have to have a badge to come in that area. That would be, of course, a massive cause of concern if somebody briefs that area, had a weapon and opened fire.

As far as weapon rules on property, can you talk about that?

FUENTES: It depends on who comes on the property. If you have an authorized law enforcement officer they may have the weapons there and be authorized to have them.

If you have somebody, whether they are authorized or not, assault of a Secret Service officer, and take shots at a Secret Service officer. It doesn't matter if they're on the grounds or across the street, or down outside of town.

If they attacked a federal officer it's a federal violation. It's just the same thing. You would have the officers, of course, ability to defend themselves and shoot back.

BALDWIN: If you are just joining us we are following breaking news here at the White House. Not only reports of initial shots fired, we now can confirm somebody is down. A suspect who allegedly is the one who opened fire on the White House complex downing custody. This is according to a law enforcement source.

The big question, no one has an answer to. Let's be totally transparent. Whether or not the individual, with this gun, was on grounds or was firing from the other side of grounds. You know if you've been to Washington, you've been a Taurus and you can get pretty close to the White House as far as the fence is concerned. A lot of pedestrian traffic. A lot of people taking photos. Restaurants in the area. You can get pretty close.

That's the question right. Whether or not somebody actually was on grounds or not when they allegedly opened fire. on this particular type of weapon Philip Mudd is talking to me here. As a former CIA counterterrorism official. It was in the EOB on 9/11 and knows what it's like to have to evacuate. Beyond the questions we have, the protocol we walked through.

Actually, forgive me. I'm being told to go to Joe Johns who is in the briefing room. Joe Johns what do you know?

JOHNS: A little bit more information here, Brooke. The situation is becoming clearer as we speak. The latest note from a law enforcement source says that, as a suspect approached a Secret Service checkpoint at 17th and E streets Northwest here in Washington. Presumably off the grounds.

The suspect brandished a weapon. Secret Service uniformed officers engaged the suspect. The suspect was shot in the abdomen and taken into custody. It also says the White House has been downgraded to condition orange.

The vice president was secured in the White House complex during the incident. As you mentioned the president was not on the grounds. Some more information from our Peter Morris. what that tells us that, and if that is true, is that the engagement of this individual with the gun occurred at 17th and E street. Not necessarily over on West Executive.

That's the difference between a secure and nonsecure area. We don't know the condition of the suspect. It is said that person was taken into custody. Still waiting to hear from the Secret Service on the record on this. That's what we know, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Joe, thank you. Tom Fuentes, I want you to translate that for me. That is law enforcement speak when you hear the official saying that the individual at the security checkpoint brandished a weapon. Then was fired upon by Secret Service. Brandishing a weapon. What does that tell you?

FUENTES: Brandishing usually means you drawn a weapon and you're waving it around and possibly pointing at them. They don't need to wait around and ask you what you intend to do with that weapon. I'm sure they were shouting of the person to drop it and when the person hesitated or didn't drop it they went ahead and opened fire. Which they are perfectly authorized to do.

I've answered the White House grounds through that entrance there on many occasions on official business when I was in the FBI. The East side of 17th St., that location E St., is near the old executive office building. It's on an entryway that leads into the grounds all the way on the other side of the executive building is the White House.

On the west side of that street is a public street. So that's a checkpoint area where the public can walk down the street. It doesn't mean that person actually got on the White House grounds.

If they threatened and menaced and brandish a weapon and they said, weapons at a Secret Service officer who was standing there manning a checkpoint - - or a group of officers then you have a federal crime. Whether he stepped foot on the property or state on the west side of the street. It doesn't matter where he was standing. If he threatened Secret Service officers that the federal crime and they have a right to defend themselves.

BALDWIN: Phil, I bet you know 17th St. checkpoint.

MUDD: I do. The first questions I have here, if I were watching this from the outside I would say, OK, we downgraded to orange were all right. There is a second parallel piece to this that has two happen now. This individual might be down. We might be assuming that this operation is over.

I want to know name. I want to address. I want to know email address. I wanted a cell phone number. Where did he come from, did somebody radicalize him? In this age of terror the past 15 years, the question of what happened here can't stop because the subject is down.

Now we have the secondary piece that says is there something else here indicates that he plays a role in a broader conspiracy. The bat is going to be no. Most of the people in these situations are going to have some sort of mental disorder. But you can assume that from the outset.

BALDWIN: As far as, for people who aren't familiar with the White House and 17th St. security checkpoint can you tell me a little bit about it?

MUDD: Sure. The White House compound, but the grounds of the executive office building next door sort of looks like a birthday cake. Huge old 19th-century building. Around there you have tourists who are

going - - this is only wrought-iron fence. You can look right through to the White House. A lot of people taking pictures. There are demonstrators across the street, some of whom are camped out for months or years.

The amount of activity around here is intense. The likelihood or the possibility that someone could just walk up to the secret service facility - - you could walk up and say hello if you want.

This doesn't suggest to me that anything went wrong. In fact it might suggest that things went right.

BALDWIN: As far as a response?

MUDD: That's correct.

BALDWIN: As far as the response. In your time in the White House we talked about multiple incidents of fence jumping. that somebody brandishing a weapon at the progress the periphery or the White House. whether or not he or she opened fire or not. Have you ever heard of that?

MUDD: I don't - - I'm sure that there have been instances. I don't know about this. I would say without taking this too far it's surprising we don't want this. Because, to the polarization of America, and frankly the amount of mental illness in this country.

The number of people going through that area is so high. Hundreds of thousands, I'm not sure, maybe even millions a year. The fact that we hear so little in some ways is remarkable in American society today.

BALDWIN: Thank you. We're looking at - - I'm listening to you, I'm trying to look at these pictures. were trying to understand as much as we possibly know here as well. By the way, is not a whole heck of a lot.

Joe Johns has a great reporting. At least we now know the latest hair as far as the White House is concerned. Tom Fuentes you have anything to add?

FUENTES: No, I agree with Phil completely on that. I think part of the reason that you have not heard more of this is that when someone has been stopped by the Secret Service. Either coming over the fence or trying to get through a checkpoint.

Even if they have a weapon, normally it's going to be difficult to shoot back at them with all of the tourists of the background. It can be very difficult to take a shot and risk other people's lives.

Sounds like in this particular situation this individual was a very threatening, very close. The Secret Service officers were confident that they didn't have a large crowd behind him put at risk if they open fire.

BALDWIN: OK. Tom Fuentes, thank you. If you are just joining us, let me just read for you precisely, CNN's

reporting as it stands right now, as far as what happened in the last few minutes there at the White House.

A suspect approached a secret service checkpoint near the White House. At the State Place and E Street. this is according to the law enforcement source. The suspect brandishing a weapon. Again we don't mean - - even know if that means opened fire, had it waving at this point. we don't know that yet.

The source who's familiar with the incident says Secret Service shot a male suspect. We know it was a male. The suspect was shot in the abdomen and has been taken into custody.

Vice President, was secured on the White House complex during the incident. We know the President was on property. The Vice President was and was secured. The suspects condition is unknown.

Let's go to our Justice correspondent Evan Perez for what he knows. Evan.

EVAN PETERS, JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Hey Brooke. That's the breakdown at this moment of what happened at the White House. We were trying to figure out whether or not - - where exactly this the place. it took place on the west side of the White House. We now know that the - - as you might imagine what something like this happens. Agencies from all over the place, the FBI, the ATF, Secret Service all converge on this one location.

In light of all the recent incidents. The fence jumping incidents at the White House. There's been a lot more measures taken to try make sure that anyone who approaches the gates. Anyone who approaches the complex, they keep an eye on them. They make sure that they can keep them away from the fences. They move some of the fencing out to make sure that people can easily jump over the fence and try to get the complex.

There's a lot of increased security measures been taken. Today, you can see some of those measures coming into play.

We know that the suspect who brandished this weapon was shot in the abdomen and now he's been taken to hospital. We don't know that suspects condition. We certainly don't know whether or not he was able to fire a shot. These were uniform security for the Secret Service. These were officers who wear their white uniforms, their white top uniforms, that were responsible for bringing the suspect down. Brooke.

BALDWIN: Evan Perez, Thank you. In Washington, let's stay in Washington. Back to the White House to Joe Johns with a little bit more information, Joe.

JOHNS: Right. What I can tell you is that the DC emergency medical service, these are the people to transport individuals for one reason or another. To and from the White House and ambulances, has tweeted out that they did pick up an individual who was suffering from a gunshot wound and 17th and E Street. That individual was transported in critical condition. However the

information is unconfirmed. It comes from a tweet. Nonetheless it comes from tweet from a DC government agency.

To recap, what we are told is that this individual brandished a gun at 17th and E Street. Was engaged and shot by Secret Service there on the scene. The situation was secured.

The vice president was secured in the facility. Now, were waiting for more information from the Secret Service about what they know. Brooke back to you.

BALDWIN: Joe John's, thank you so much. Mr. Mudd, I hear you wanted to jump in?

MUDD: One of the things you got to remember, remember talking about activity around the area. Pedestrians and activity, again as someone who served there and as an everyday American. It's not just pedestrian traffic activity.

The number of political demonstrations in this area is very high. Some of which are permanent in the park across the street.

I'm not a mental health specialist, but I am somebody who passed by there on my lunch hour everyday. The number of these folks who have mental disorders is high. If you make mix that up with tourists pulling cameras out approaching security guards. People with questionable mental health status demonstrating against the president and other causes.

The pressure on the perimeter security guys, when someone comes up with a weapon, is very high. It's not surprising to me, that there might be a proclivity to say. If somebody's brandishing a weapon were going to shoot them, because there's so much pressure and activity around that area. They're going to be on a hair trigger any time somethings moving.

BALDWIN: I understand what you're saying, especially for someone who has lived not too far from Lafayette Park. Not to suggest that anyone is saying just because somebody is mentally ill - -

MUDD: No, no.

BALDWIN: That they would - -

MUDD: I'm just saying that some of the people approach you, is quite evident that they have a few issues.

BALDWIN: Miles O'Brian, you've been sitting here listening call this.

O'Brian: What's worth remembering here, this is the people's house. It's a constant balance in our democracy to maintain a sense of our freedom and access it to this place. The fact that tourists still go through their is frankly remarkable in this day and age.

It's truly a security nightmare to contemplate that fact. To maintain that public access which we do hold dear in our democracy. Yet, maintain security and the safety of the First Family. All the other, the national security staff and all of the members of the executive branch.

It's a difficult balance. I hope we don't come to the day where we lose access to what we know it is the people's house.

BALDWIN: That's a good point. It is pretty cool that we do have access to walk through the White House in this day and age.

Evan Perez let me go back to you. Our justice correspondent here. I want to ask you about something here, I know filming at this point earlier. Sort of questions about the periphery, fencing around the White House. to changes in the last couple of years. Can you talk a little bit about that?

PEREZ: You have - - it's a really - - Phil has raised the point here, it's and important case in the American democracy. The idea, if you remember a few years ago when they close off a part of Pennsylvania Avenue. which, was very controversial.

Some members of Congress still on the street be opened as a way to show that this is a normal part of the American democratic system. The American capital. But really given all the scary situations that had. The number of fence jumping incidents. There's been a lot of things that have been added to the periphery array, to the perimeter of the White House that includes - - I was just there this past weekend.

There's a lot want people who are both wearing uniforms and uniforms. Some of them are just walking around, keeping an eye on every single person who's there. You have a lot of tourists. Especially on the south lawn they are, because you have that very beautiful vista, Washington Monument right behind you. There is a huge gathering of tourists there. It really adds to the number of people, the number of security personnel have to keep an eye on.

Just recently the Secret Service had to - - and the homeland security department raising the height of the fence as a way to discourage people from trying to get over the fence. To try again to the complex. It seems like every time one of the incidents happen it just draws more attention to the place. It draws more people who want to try to get famous by doing this type of things.

Now to try and figure out if they can raise the height of the fence. That has to go through all the historical reviews and all the reviews the and you have here in Washington. This is after all historic place. A historic building. They have to - - it has to be reviewed before you do something like that.

At this point though, we now that the system that they have in place it seems to have worked today. We don't know whether this man, what his intent was. That he was trying to get into the complex are not. We do know that these officers saw what they believe to be a threat and decided to shoot him in the abdomen and now he's down. We do not know his condition at this moment. This is the security environment we are living in. Not only, obviously, from these types of incidents that we keep seeing repeatedly at the White House. But, also the threat from terrorism that is ever present here in Washington.

BALDWIN: Evan, thank you so much. Just in the 40 seconds that I have, Tom Fuentes. Miles O'Brian's point is excellent. The notion of the people's house. We want the access. You can see right through to the beautiful White House if you're a tourist. For the rest of us versus true protection.

FUENTES: That's true, if I can add. The public tour is at the White House are - - you get tickets to go on them and they happen in the morning. This particular entrance on the west side is not, does not have a good view of the White House.

The people that are going in and out of that entrance are government employees. Like when I was in the government. Going to meetings at the White House or the old executive office building. That's actually a business entrance this time of day in the afternoon.

BALDWIN: Ok, Tom Fuentes thank you so much. Were going to stay on this and go to Washington. Jake Tapper picking up the special breaking coverage right now. Jake Tapper, over to you.