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Trump's Position on Guns in Classrooms; Iraqi Forces Will Fight for Fallujah; EgyptAir Investigation Conttinues; Sanders in Uphill Battle for Nomination; Sanders Announces Support for Wasserman Schultz Challenger; Legal Battle over Segregated Schools in Mississippi; President Obama Welcomed to Hanoi in Official Ceremony. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired May 22, 2016 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00] FREDERICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: In an interview on "Fox and Friends" this morning, he shifted his tone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't want to have guns in classrooms, although in some cases teachers should have guns in classrooms frankly. Because teachers are -- you know, things that are going on in our schools are unbelievable. You look at some of our schools, unbelievable what's going on. But I'm not advocating guns in classrooms. But remember, in some cases, and a lot of people have made this case, teachers should be able to have guns. Trained teachers should be able to have guns in classrooms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: So this all comes on the heels of the NRA's endorsement of Trump Friday. And Hillary Clinton calling his words dangerous at a Travyon Martin Foundation dinner just last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Parents, teachers, and schools should have the right to keep guns out of classrooms. Just like Donald Trump does at many of his hotels, by the way.

This is someone running to be President of the United States of America. Unlike Donald Trump, I will not pander to the gun lobby and we will not be silenced and we will not be intimidated. As long as children anywhere are being killed by gun violence, we will keep fighting for our kids because they deserve a president who stands up for them and stands with the mothers here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right, let's talk more about this with Republican strategist Brian Morgenstern, political analyst Ellis Hennican, and CNN political commentator Jeffrey Lord. All right, good to see all of you. All right, so Brian, you first. How do you explain this, his choice of words and what seems to be a change in sentiment?

BRIAN MORGENSTERN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes, well, classic Trump, I suppose. He changes his positions not just month to month or day to day, but minute to minute sometimes. That's just kind of how he rolls.

But he obviously -- it's a big endorsement from the NRA, so talking about guns and mobilizing the tens of millions of Americans for whom the Second Amendment is a huge issue is not the worst play in the world. Just likewise, for Hillary and the Democrats, gun control is a big issue on their side and it galvanizes people. It is an emotional hot button on both ends of the spectrum, and mobilizing those voters is good.

In terms of Trump, though, the way he's wishy-washy and kind of losing his trustworthiness on the position, that's risky.

WHITFIELD: So then how much of a problem is that for the party? I know you're not a big fan of Donald Trump, you're not supporter of him. You backed other Republican candidates. But overall for the party, leading into the general election, very damaging in your view or not?

MORGENSTERN: Probably not based on his track record. I mean, there's obviously so much time left before the election, he can clean up this mess very easily. So it's -- you know, this is the time to make those mistakes and then get the message hammered out as we get closer to the general. It's a little bit damaging. Takes a little chink out of his credibility. But there's plenty of time to fix it.

WHITFIELD: So, Ellis, do you see Hillary Clinton seizing on this opportunity? Or did she already do, you know, enough within the last 24 hours on it and it's time to move on? Or what do you see potentially?

ELLIS HENICAN, POLITICAL ANALYST: We just saw the seizing right there, and rather effectively. I mean, 70 or 80 percent of Americans, including most members of the NRA, actually agree with her on background checks and on the no-fly zones and a bunch of other issues.

Listen, it's almost impossible today to placate Wayne LaPierre and the extreme leadership at the NRA. What's next? I mean, do you want to have -- bring your gun zones in airplanes or in church? You know, it's Sunday in America, the preacher's waiting, you better get your AR-15. I just don't think you can satisfy these extremists.

WHITFIELD: So Jeffrey, what is going on? You are a big supporter of Donald Trump. Who is he trying to appeal to? Because it almost seems like -- and, well, you tell me -- but it almost seems like he's trying to appeal to different audiences but then now all the wires are getting a bit crossed. Is that what's happening?

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I just -- I just don't see that at all, Fred. I think he was talking about students -- students in the classroom on the one hand and teachers or armed security guards on the other.

I think the extremists are Hillary Clinton and her friends. These are the folks who keep wanting more and more gun control. They forget that there's a black market out there for guns. They could get any kind of gun control they want. In fact, in California, after there was a shooting in Santa Barbara, I took a check and the Brady handgun control folks had put out a thing long before that saying California had the best gun control laws in the country and the toughest and it was a terrific place. And then one of these incidents occurs.

We're not going to be able to stop all crazy people. But if you want to take a look at how this works, I mean, this is the responsibility of people like the mayor of Chicago or the mayor of New York or the mayor of Los Angeles, and they're not doing a very good job here.

[16:05:05] They keep blaming this on Wayne LaPierre, who is a stalwart for the Second Amendment. And I assure you, politically speaking, particularly in a state here like Pennsylvania where we have a lot of gun owners, this issue will count in the fall.

WHITFIELD: OK, so Hillary Clinton is seizing on this, saying, you know, the language that Donald Trump has been using, particularly within the last few hours, really does demonstrate immediate dangers, in her view, to the nation. Listen to what she had to say today on "Meet The Press".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: I do not want Americans and, you know, good-thinking Republicans as well as Democrats and independents, to start to believe that this is a normal candidacy. It isn't. What he is advocating -- look what he's done this past week. You know, attacking our closest ally, England. Heaping praise on a dangerous dictator in North Korea. Reiterating his call to pull out of NATO, our strong military alliance. Talking about letting other countries have nuclear weapons. Advocating a return to torture and even murdering the families of suspected terrorists. That is beyond the pale and it poses immediate dangers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: So Ellis, she's talking about trust, she's talking about using language and words responsibly, and she's talking about where we are on the world stage. How does she continue on this or do you see her continuing on this to try to best serve herself when she, too, you know, when you look at that "Washington Post" polling today, she has unfavorability numbers that are in line, in step with Donald Trump's?

HENICAN: Listen, you've got to do both obviously. The presidency is a job for grown-ups. I mean you both have to be measured and responsible and you've got to throw punches at your opponent. I mean, it's a rough political situation.

She's not making the mistake that Brian's candidate, Marco Rubio, and all those other Republicans did of holding back in direct criticism. She's coming right at, at the beginning, which you've got to do to beat an opponent like that.

WHITFIELD: Brian, you want to respond real quick?

MORGENSTERN: Sure. Yes. But here's the essence of this election, though, you've got Hilary saying I'm measured, I'm experienced, which is code for same old rigged system that everybody's fed up with. This is literally a choice between the devil you know and then rolling the dice with Trump. And a lot of people are picking the dice, which is pretty scary, but you know, she can accurately describe all those things that Trump said, which should oftentimes send shivers down a reasonable voter's mind. People aren't buying it. They're not -- you know, it's not being internalized. They're saying, well, Hillary's more of the same. Trump is -- you know, talk about different. They want different.

WHITFIELD: So real quick, Jeffrey, I mean, Brian's saying roll the dice. I heard Bernie Sanders today saying the lesser of two evils. I mean, is that what this process, this election season, is all about?

LORD: Well, she -- I mean, she talks for example about her experience. And what Donald Trump is talking about, she may have the quote, unquote, "experience", but how has that affected her judgment? I mean, whether it's Benghazi or the Russian reset, which has failed miserably, whether it's the disaster in Iraq with pulling out all the troops there when victory was at hand. I mean, on and on and on these disasters go. She's got experience all right and it's turned out to be really seriously bad judgment. Which is why we got an ambassador killed, which is why we have all these problems. People have had it. I mean, you can have all the experience in the world; if you don't know how to use it, which she clearly does not, that's not a help.

WHITFIELD: And bottom line, nobody's going to have the experience once they get in the White House if they've been there for the first time anyway. But it's how they handle it, right?

All right, Jeffrey, Ellis, Brian, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

HENICAN: Thanks, Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, next hour, Democrat presidential candidate Senator Bernie Sanders holding a rally in California and he's pushing the idea of getting rid of superdelegates. He trails Clinton in the superdelegate count, 42 to her 522. And this morning he told our Jake Tapper, the superdelegate process is undemocratic. However, he plans on trying to woo the superdelegates away from Clinton.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST, "STATE OF THE UNION": Should the candidate with the most pledged delegates at the end of the process, June 7, after New Jersey and California, the last contests, should the person with the most pledged delegates be the Democratic nominee?

SANDERS: Well, I think if that was the only criteria, then you get rid of all of the superdelegates, which may not be a bad idea. But you do have superdelegates. You got 700 superdelegates. And I am not a great fan of superdelegates, but their job is to take an objective look at reality. And I think the reality is that we are the stronger candidate. So, we will see what happens, Jake.

[16:10:01] TAPPER: So, you actually think...

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: You think it would be OK for the pledged delegates, the majority of Democratic voters, to pick one candidate, and then the superdelegates to actually go with a different candidate?

(LAUGHTER)

TAPPER: You're not suggesting that?

SANDERS: Well, it's very funny -- it's very funny that you ask me that question, when you had 400 pledged delegates come on board Clinton's campaign before anyone else was in the race.

That's called an anointment. That's called the establishment talking. That's called the big money interests saying...

TAPPER: Right, but...

SANDERS: ... this is who we want to be president.

TAPPER: But the process -- the process is...

SANDERS: We are where we are right now.

TAPPER: Yes. And where we are...

(CROSSTALK)

SANDERS: We are where we are right now, Jake.

TAPPER: Right.

SANDERS: And that -- and where we are is, we are fighting to win the pledged delegates. So, before I can answer your question, let's see what's going to happen. But if you do have if your argument is, let's get rid of the superdelegates, that may not be a bad idea.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Will Bernie Sanders will talking anymore about superdelegates at that rally that's about to get underway in California? We'll take you there next hour as it happens.

All right, meantime, the hunt for answers over the downing of EgyptAir Flight 804 is underwater now. Now a submarine is scouring the Mediterranean Sea for the black boxes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) WHITFIELD: There's an all-out battle coming for the ISIS stronghold of Fallujah in Iraq. The city was an early victory for ISIS militants, who've controlled it since January of 2014. Iraqi forces say they're now ready to liberate it.

Fallujah was the scene of some of the bloodiest battles for U.S. troops in the Iraq War. Some called it the heaviest urban fighting since the war in Vietnam. 82 American soldiers were killed and another 600 wounded in a siege that lasted almost seven weeks before ending on Christmas Eve in 2004. Eventually, the city was handed over to the Iraqi government, but it fell to al Qaeda before long, leaving many, including U.S. soldiers, feeling like American blood was spilled for no reason.

So let's talk about it with CNN military analyst Spider Marks.

[16:15:04] He's a retired U.S. Army Major General and joins us now on the phone. All right, I'm glad you're able to be with me. So are the Iraqi forces --

MAJ. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you, Fred.

WHITFIELD: -- properly prepared now to kind of retake Fallujah?

MARKS: Yes, this has been a long time in coming, Fred. United States presence in Iraq over the course of the last few years, since the U.S. departed in late 2011, has been exclusively focused on the training and the preparation of Iraqi forces. And, granted, there have been fits and starts. We've seen some -- we've had some major disappointments in terms of their readiness levels and we've seen some great successes.

Clearly, those successes are because of the leadership of the Iraqi forces on the ground, but also because the United States has been a very close partner. Clearly, we could increase the level of that partnership if we would choose to do that. And in some cases, we have. But it's important for us to remember that this success that we hope will occur in Fallujah must be an Iraqi security force led effort. And that's exactly what's happening.

So long time in coming, lots of training in preparation, very deliberate in its efforts. We can only hope that the United States will remain a partner of Iraq going forward as necessary.

WHITFIELD: The Taliban confirming their top leader Mullah Mansour, the highest ranking member of their group, was killed on Saturday, the target of an American airstrike. Here's Secretary of State John Kerry explaining exactly why he was targeted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: Mansour posed a continuing, imminent threat to U.S. personnel in Afghanistan, to Afghan civilians, Afghan security forces, and resolute support coalition members across the country. (END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: So as it pertains to Afghanistan, do you believe that the death of Mansour will, you know, curb the imminent threat of the Taliban even?

MARKS: Well, frankly, no, Fred. And that's -- clearly, it's a chilling effect on the organization whenever senior leadership get taken out, but they are very resilient. They've demonstrated, as we know quite imminently, their grittiness over the course of the years. They have next level of leadership ready to -- ready to step up.

So that by itself is insufficient. It's necessary, but it's insufficient. There needs to be a continuous pressure on the Taliban.

And also bear in mind, the United States, in partnership with the Afghan government, tried to establish some pretty aggressive communications with the Taliban going forward to try to find a confluence of interest. Mansour has been a tremendous impediment toward making that happen. And so everything the secretary said is absolutely spot on, but he's also been an impediment and a disrupter in terms of any sub rosa efforts that might be in place to try to find some interests in common with the Taliban, which is a very, very tough and very tenuous thing to do.

WHITFIELD: All right, Major General Spider Marks, thanks so much.

MARKS: Thank you very much.

WHITFIELD: All right, still ahead, a submarine has been deployed to the bottom of the Mediterranean Sea in search of the flight recorders of that downed EgyptAir plane. Details on that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:23:41] WHITFIELD: Welcome back. Tighter security measures are going into effect at Paris' Charles De Gaulle Airport as the investigation widens into what happened to EgyptAir Flight 804. The flight took off from Paris late Wednesday night before disappearing over the Mediterranean Thursday morning. And since then, questions have swirled about security measures at that airport and who may have had access to that plane before it took off.

On "STATE OF THE UNION" with Jake Tapper, Congressman Peter King talked about airport security.

(BEIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: But what it does show, Jake, is the extent of the Islamist threat at the airports from insiders. It also showed the anger toward General Sisi. And you -- a combination of anti-Sisi, plus the Islamist movement, the ISIS movement, and the fact that the insiders at the airports all over the world, but especially in countries like Egypt, that is, to me, the -- a greater threat to us than passengers bringing bombs onto a plane. It's people behind the scenes, those who have access to plane, the airport workers, the cleaners, the scrubbers, anyone who gets -- who, again, does not face the same scrutiny as passengers do. They have access. And that -- that is the real threat here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Joining me right now is CNN aviation analyst Justin Green.

All right, Justin, so the Congressman was also talking about the graffiti reportedly that had been scrawled on some of the airplanes, you know, whether it was "Allah Akbar" or it was "This plane will go down".

[16:25:13] So do you have grave concerns about the people who have access to these planes and the screening that takes place? And if it turns out that there are people, you know, who are culpable for those things, what happens to them next beyond just firing them?

JUSTIN GREEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, I think anyone would have major concerns if someone who has access, one of those red badges that lets them have access to an airplane, would do something like that.

Now, as a lawyer representing families, you know, you have to consider relevance. This is graffiti that apparently goes back a couple of years. We don't at this point know what kind of investigation was done, whether those individuals were still working at the Egyptian airport. And also remember that this airplane left from the Paris airport. So it, you know, generally concerns me in a significant way, but specifically regarding this it doesn't jump out to me as a likely cause.

WHTIFIELD: Every airport is different. And isn't that part of the concern that some have, too, because there may not be universal type of screening or security measures? It really does depend on each country, each jurisdiction, each city.

GREEN: That's right. Every country basically has control of their own airports. What's scary -- and by the way, I should mention that we're still in the beginning phases of this investigation. A lot of people came out right away going down the terror path. And now, a couple days later, we have the ACARS data and there seemed to be a pullback a little bit.

But if this is a terror attack, what's scary to me is that Paris airport is one of the most secure airports. If this can happen at Paris, this can happen in New York, it can happen in Chicago, it can happen pretty much at any airport.

WHITFIELD: And then if it's not terror, and you talk about the ACARS system, the signals that were being sent from that aircraft, saying that there were problems, the heat in the windshield, the smoke coming out of the cockpit. There's that direction of the investigation potentially that there was a mechanical problem, et cetera. What more do you discern from these four things that were cited in the signals from ACARS, that we have a in graphic right now, the messages sent? GREEN: Well, what's clear to anyone, this is probably that there's

only been a couple pieces of what I would call direct evidence. The radar data is direct evidence of what the airplane did, the turns it did, the descent it took. The ACARS data is also direct evidence of what happened on the airplane, but it's not sufficient. What it does show us is a much -- not much, but a slower moving, cascading effect than what you might expect from a large explosion. But from fire, it's actually pretty quickly. So it doesn't really answer the question. And the answers to that question unfortunately are still at the bottom of the Mediterranean Sea.

WHTIFIELD: All right, Justin Green, thank you so much.

GREEN: Thank you.

WHTIFIELD: Stay with CNN for our continued coverage of EgyptAir.

Representative Ed Royce, who chairs the House Committee on Foreign Affairs, says this was most likely a terror attack. And he'll make that case to CNN tonight at 6:00 Eastern Time.

All right, a rigged system. That's what Bernie Sanders keeps calling the presidential nominating process. Our Jake Tapper pressed him on the issue this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Should the party do away with superdelegates?

SANDERS: I think they should very much -- I think we need a serious discussion about the role of superdelegates. Clearly, the current situation is undemocratic. It is ill-advised, and it needs to change.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right. More from that interview next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:30:00] WHITFIELD: Hello again. Thanks so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

Senator Bernie Sanders admits he is in an uphill battle to win the democratic presidential nomination. But he is far from conceding the race to Hillary Clinton.

CNN's State of the Union told Jake Tapper the super delegate process is undemocratic.

But he hopes to convince those delegates to change their support from Hillary Clinton to him at the convention. Despite the difficult odds, Sanders believes he has a path to winning the nomination.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: I believe if we -- look, I am good in arithmetic. And I understand that it is a very, very uphill fight to go from 46 percent, where we are today, to 50 percent in the nine remaining contests. I got that.

But the other point, and we're going to try. California obviously is the big race that remains. We think we have a chance to do very well in California and New Jersey, et cetera. But what I also believe, it's incumbent upon some of these super delegates, people who came on board Clinton's campaign before anyone else was in the race to take an objective look at which candidate is stronger.

And it's not just polls, Jake. Democrats and progressives win when there is a large voter turnout. Republicans win when people are demoralized and don't come out to vote.

Any objective assessment of our campaign versus Clinton's campaign I think will conclude we have the energy, we have the excitement, we have the young people, we have the working people, we can drive a large voter turnout so that we not only win the White House, retain control of the Senate, do well in the House and win governors chairs up and down the line.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: CNN's Sunlen Serfaty is at the Sanders campaign rally in Vista, California right now. So, Sunlen, Sanders will need to do well in California. Does he feel fairly confident about it?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's interesting, Fred. you know, some of the latest polls out here in California all show Clinton with a lead. And I do think you can read a lot into Bernie Sanders' mindset by just looking at the urgency that he is bringing to the campaign trail in this final stretch.

He is starting this weekend has started a five-day barnstorm of the State of California. He thinks from the campaign's perspective, they're wanting to bring a lot of momentum when they reach the end of all of the contests which is just in two weeks on June 7th here in California.

You know, Sanders this morning, as you said, admitted that it will be an uphill climb. I think he's very aware that the pressure will be mounting even more so after the contest end here on what he just pass for.

It was very, very notable this morning in Jake tapper's interview that Sanders, you know, would refused to say yes or no, whether he thinks that the person with the most pledge delegates at the end of the contest should go onto be the nominee. I think that speaks volumes at where he sees his campaign going from here, Fred.

[16:35:01] WHITFIELD: All right. Sunlen, thanks so much. And Bernie Sanders I guess taken the stage right now. We'll check back with you to see what he has to say. I appreciate it.

All right. Sanders also advanced the feud between his campaign and DNC chairperson Debbie Wasserman Schultz by announcing his support for her congressional challenger in Florida's upcoming primary race.

He is a democrat, Tim Canova. A law professor at Nova Southeastern University and I spoke with him last hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIM CANOVA, DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ'S OPPONENT: I welcome Senator Sanders' support for this campaign. He's been right on an awful lot of issues. And I think we have a very similar progressive agenda. I'm a progressive in the tradition of Franklin Roosevelt. And I think there are lot of people in this wing of the party some people called the Elizabeth Warren wing, Bernie Sanders as well, that want the same kind of progressive reforms.

WHITFIELD: So, you're not necessarily, you know, you're not gunning for, you know, Debbie Wasserman Schultz's DNC chairwoman job, but by gunning for this congressional position, if you were to unseat her, it would certainly undermine her authority, undermine her leadership ability as a DNC chair, right?

CANOVA: Well, that's probably true. And I'm not running to be the DNC chair. You know, I think the voters in our district have not been well served. I think the DNC chair is a full-time job and representing people in the House of Representatives is a full-time job. And I don't think anybody could do both effectively and arguably, my opponent's not doing either one quite effectively.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right. The DNC chairwoman issued this statement saying, quote, "Even though Senator Sanders has endorsed my opponent, I remain as I have been from the beginning neutral in the presidential democratic primary.

All right. The legal battle straight ahead that has been brewing for half a century is coming to a head in Mississippi. At issue, segregated schools. A report from the ground after this.

[16:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: It's been over 60 years since the landmark Supreme Court case of Brown versus Board of Education which declared the segregation of schools unconstitutional. But now, a small Mississippi community may be nearing the end of its fight with the federal government.

Nick Valencia has details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED DUVALL JR., EAST SIDE HIGH SOPHOMORE: This is uncomfortable for me.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: At home in Cleveland, Mississippi, a father and son have a conversation that's been 50 years in the making.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're doing what we think is right, not just for black folks, but for white folks and for everybody.

VALENCIA: This week, after a five-decade long legal battle, a federal judge ordered the Cleveland School District to integrate. The Reverend Edward Duvall advocated for the move and even testified in court. His son Ed Jr. isn't so sure about the impending change.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think the parents -- where the parent wants the child to go not and whether the child wants to go.

DUVALL: And I don't expect you to agree with me. There's no doubt that this fight that I'm taking this far the best interest of everybody.

VALENCIA: Population of 12,000. Cleveland Mississippi has public 11 schools that are separated by train tracks that used to be right here. To the east, East Side High School. It's 99 percent black. To the west, Cleveland High School which has historically has been seen as a school for whites, though enrollment there now has pretty evenly split between the races but still not representative of the population.

The Department of Justice took exception with that and pushed to change it.

JAMIE JACK, SCHOOL DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I thought we were doing pretty well.

VALENCIA: Attorney Jamie Jack represents the school district. For the last 50 years, she says, the district has complied with federal orders to integrate. But for a federal judge the process wasn't moving fast enough.

JACK: What the court said was it at, it wasn't intensive enough and it wasn't effective enough. And we think that with the Constitution and the law of the Supreme Court says is you don't have to have a racial quota that is required in every school, in every district. You have to have made a good faith effort and we think our district as a whole is desegregated

VALENCIA: Since 2013, Cleveland School District has allowed open enrollment which gives the freedom of choice for any student, white, black, or other to go wherever they want.

Jack says that system of choice proves segregation does not exist. No one we spoke to at East Side High's graduation seemed to disagree with that. In fact, most said they like the way things are.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's they choice to go to east side, they go to here. We've got a choice living for us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some of us go over there; some of them come over here. So, it shouldn't make a difference because we see each other every day.

DUVALL: First of all, not fully inauguration.

VALENCIA: But Duvall wants to see change because it's good for the entire community, he says, because it provides equal opportunity for all.

DUVALL: We're trying to make our community better. Not for just tomorrow or the next few years, but for your child.

VALENCIA: Nick Valencia, CNN, Cleveland, Mississippi.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right. Joining me right now is law professor and civil rights attorney, Avery Friedman, and criminal defense attorney, Richard Herman.

I know people are thinking, wait a minute, is it Saturday? Yes, you're usually with me on Saturday. We had you change things around. We appreciate you guys are willing to do that for us and with us.

All right. Good to see you, guys. OK. So, Richard, you first. Because this is really a unique situation, is it not, because you're talking about a representative of the school district who says it is desegregated. But we're talking about an issue of where people live and that is what helps support the notion or the reality for them which is you've predominantly white schools and predominantly black schools because of where people live.

So, at what point does the court need to step in or should be stepping in to say we want to see that everyone is integrated. Is it an issue redrawing the district lines here or is it bussing, ensuring, encouraging people to, you know, leave the area that they live in for the sake of integrating, better integrating schools?

RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Fred, after 62 years from Brown v. Board of Ed, which basically outlawed segregated schools and provided the constitutional right for a student to go and have an integrated education, and some 51 years after litigation commenced in Cleveland to prevent a segregation in the schools.

[16:44:59] And after three failed plans presented by local school officials, it's time for the government and the Department of Justice to step in.

There are some 3,600 students enrolled in schools in Cleveland. Of 11 of the schools, some four of them have 90 percent population of black. Whether you have the right to choose, that's not the factor here, Fred.

It's an integrated education. That's the constitutional right here, and that's what the schools need. There is a train track that separates white from black in this town. It's like trash tracks at a time warp. And, you know, the time has come, it has to stop.

WHITFIELD: So, Avery, you're shaking your head. Why?

AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, listen, first of all, that's Cleveland, Mississippi, not Cleveland, Ohio.

WHITFIELD: Right: FRIEDMAN: But what's important to know is U.S. District Judge Deborah

Brown wrote a 96-page opinion, Fredricka, 96 pages, that the school district is not integrated.

Freedom of choice means this. If you're black and you exercise freedom of choice, you either go to a black school or a white school. If you're white you exercise freedom of choice you can go to a white school.

That means the black school winds up literally almost 100 percent one race. That's what the lawsuit by the Department of Justice is about. I think the federal district judge, Fredricka, isn't kidding around here. We're going to see a plan.

And by the way, she directed the Board of Education and the Department of Justice to get their plans in by June 2nd, and whatever has happened in the past -- and again, 47 years since the first order, this federal judge means business. We're not going to have 100 percent black or 100 percent white schools at this point going forward.

WHITFIELD: So, isn't the issue, though, you know, Richard and Avery, not just about race? That there is -- that somebody sees something wrong with all white students, all black students. But some issue Brown versus Board of Education, at issue was resources. You know, that if you're going to have separation like this or if you're going to have schools where a majority, you know, you have a majority white, majority black, you know, there is a balancing act of resources.

Do they equally have resources, money, you know, teachers that with the same kind of qualifications. Is that part of the argument here, Richard?

HERMAN: There is. And it goes beyond that, Fred. There is a stigma in Cleveland, Mississippi, Avery. There is a stigma there that the white school -- white schools are better -- to get a better education in a white school than a black school. And the students that are going to the black schools, they don't want to change because that's how their parents did it, that's how their grandparents did it, so that's the way it's supposed to be.

And this is what they have to break up in Cleveland is that, there is a distinction the white education in Cleveland, Mississippi is better than the black. That's a fact. There are more resources and that stigma has to change.

WHITFIELD: Yes.

HERMAN: The students are equal and they deserve an integrated education.

WHITFIELD: So, quickly, Avery, is that the argument largely that's being made? Less about simply black and white, but more about resources, making sure that everyone is on a level playing feel as it pertains to education?

FRIEDMAN: I don't agree with that. I think Brown versus Board said that segregation is inherently unequal, and that means resources, that means opportunities, that means extracurricular, that means enrichment courses. Bottom line, it is racial. And it's time to change and this federal district judge is going to make sure it happens.

WHITFIELD: All right. Avery Friedman and Richard Herman, thank you so much. Always good to see you. Even on a Sunday.

HERMAN: Yes.

WHITFIELD: Extra bonus.

FRIEDMAN: Good to see you.

WHITFIELD: All right. Good to see you. We'll be right back.

[16:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. Each week, we recognize someone who goes above and beyond as a CNN hero. This week's hero is a semi-pro cyclist who has become an unlikely father figure teaching some of the most at-risk kids about mountain bike racing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRAIG DODSON, CNN HERO: What a lot of people can't see is that our kids have the equivalent of 10 suitcases each of baggage that they are carrying on that bike. These kids can tell me to piss off at any time like what am I going to do.

There's connection being made. This is a war to me. It's me against the circumstances that these kids live in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right. To see how Craig Dodson is fighting that war, visit cnnheros.com to watch his full story.

All right. President Obama has arrived in Vietnam to begin his trip to Asia with an 11-hour time difference. He's getting sleep before a formal arrival ceremony in Hanoi tonight.

Air Force One took a wide route around the South China Sea as it flew into Hanoi avoiding flying over areas contested by China and other Asian countries.

Here now is CNN's Michelle Kosinski.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The White House is calling this visit the first of its kind. President Obama's really the first U.S. President to spend time here, three days, to try to deepen and strengthen ties with Vietnam.

He's going to be talking about trade, the Transpacific partnership, but also security and defense. And one of the issues hanging over this trip is whether the U.S. will indeed fully lift the arms embargo that affected sales of arms to Vietnam.

I mean, that would have been unheard of decades ago. But it was lifted partially two years ago. Now one issue that could affect that, though, is human rights here in Vietnam.

Human rights says it's dire in all areas. And just today, BBC was ordered by the Vietnamese government to stop reporting from here. But whatever the U.S. does in this part of the world, it's directly affected by and affects the relationship with China.

China and Vietnam have a dispute over islands in the South China Sea. The U.S. tries to counter China's influence in this region by helping the U.S.'s other allies including Vietnam. But China doesn't always follow the rules. I mean, we saw just this past week; Chinese planes do this unsafe intercept of a U.S. plane that was doing a routine mission over the South China Sea, flying within 50 feet of it.

[16:55:05] When the president arrived here in Hanoi, they took a route that was circuitous and avoided the South China Sea altogether. So, the influence of China is always an issue that overshadows any presidential trip to Asia.

Michelle Kosinski, CNN, Hanoi.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right. Saturday Night Live getting lots of laughs over the battle between Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton. That's next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What can I get for you two?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll have a beer. A new brand that people are flocking to. Something refreshing and revolutionary. Something that draws huge crowds.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I'll have whatever beer no one likes but gets the job done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. Before we go, we have to indulge in a little Saturday Night Live and the battle between Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Remember when I told everyone to stop talking about your damn e-mails? What a schmuck. So stupid! So stupid!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know. I do not like humor, but that one was funny.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[16:59:53] WHITFIELD: Oh, no. All right. Thanks so much for being with us. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. So much more straight ahead from the NEWSROOM with Jim Sciutto.