Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

New Clinton-Trump Polls; Sanders Criticizes Party; Baltimore Officer Acquitted; Assault on ISIS Underway. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired May 23, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:32] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Here we go. Happy Monday to all of you. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for watching CNN.

Listen, it's not just one but now three national polls that show Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump in a statistical dead heat for the presidency. Two new polls just came out that confirm a poll from last week and they all say that Hillary Clinton lost what was once a double-digit lead against Donald Trump. Both new polls also confirm that these two frontrunners are the most disliked candidates to run for the White House in the history of these kinds of favorability surveys. And as the gap between the frontrunners is tightening, Bernie Sanders is hardening his stance to stay in the Democratic race. More on Senator Sanders in just a moment.

But first, let's get straight to CNN's Tom Foreman to walk us full - through some of these polls.

I know it's a lot of numbers, but these are so, so important, especially when we see, you know, the difference between Trump and Clinton so close.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: These are numbers, Brooke, that many Democrats and Republicans just a couple of months ago thought they would never see. Look at this, "Washington Post"/ABC News poll, Trump up by 4 percent over 44 percent for Clinton. NBC News/"Wall Street Journal" poll, Clinton up over Trump 46-43. Both of these are within the sampling error.

But this is undeniable. Look at the trend lines here. Back in April, Trump was at only 39 percent. Now he's at 43 percent in the aggregate. She was at 50 percent. He is now at 46 percent. NBC News/"Wall Street Journal" poll, this is the undeniable part, her numbers are inching down, his are inching up. This can all change. This is not definitive. And the Bernie Sanders factor is still in there because he's still a candidate.

But look at how this is breaking down. The big number here, unfavorable. That's what you're talking about, Brooke. We have not seen numbers this bad for the two front running candidates for the - for the parties in forever. This is really an astonishing indictment of both parties that they produce candidates that are so disliked at this point in time. And there's another number similar to it from NBC News/"Wall Street Journal." Again, very big unfavorables there. But look who - who likes these people. Trump is getting support from

whites, whopping advantage there over Clinton, seniors, really substantial advantage, men and independent voters. This is where Trump is probably going to focus a lot of his effort trying to get even more of that number because these can be deciders and right now they're liking what they see in him, if he can keep them tipping that way.

What about for her? She is winning in a dazzling fashion. Look at this, African-Americans, 88 to 9 percent, 68 to 21 the Latinos, 51 to 38 among women, 55 to 32 among young. She might benefit down here because a lot of young voters have been going for Bernie Sanders, if he stays in the race and may stay there. But if she becomes the nominee, she may be able to pick them up.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: Tom Foreman, thank you.

We're going to begin with the numbers and also just a heads up to all of you, Senator Sanders slated to speak in east L.A. momentarily. More than likely he will be talking about something else, one of those new poll number reaffirmed, and that is that he, in a hypothetical against Donald Trump, he fares better than Hillary Clinton. In fact, Senator Sanders has the best favorability numbers among all three of them. However, Hillary Clinton downplayed the results when she was on "Meet the Press."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Polls this far out mean nothing. They certainly mean nothing to me and I think if people go back and look, they really mean nothing in terms of analyzing what's going to happen in the fall.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You think this lead for Sanders is an illusion a little bit?

CLINTON: I'm - I'll let others speak to that. I just think that I'm in a much stronger position, have been, and the voters, who have turned out and given me 3 million more votes believe that as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's go to CNN's senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny in Los Angeles ahead of that Sanders event.

And so, obviously, the senator has taken note of these numbers. He also referred to Hillary Clinton as the lesser of two evils over the weekend. And he has said he and his revolution are in it for the long haul.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Brooke, that is right. And that is what is giving some Democrats some pause here, particularly in the final - really couple weeks of this Democratic primary fight. It's been a long fight, but the end is in sight. The primary out here in California, June 7th, 475 delegates, so important. Bernie Sanders trying hard to win the primary. He believes that will be sort of the final argument here to show Democrats that, look, he is the stronger of the two candidates.

[14:05:01] But all polls are not created equally here. It is - you know, you have to point out the fact that Bernie Sanders is so much newer on this stage and has not had, you know, year after year after year of criticism against him. That is one of the reasons that he's likely up against Trump. But there's no doubt the Clinton campaign does not like to see this because that does sort of add some air of legitimacy to Bernie Sanders' argument.

But, Brooke, I was struck by those words you said earlier, the lesser of two evils, as Bernie Sanders said on ABC "The Week" yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We need a campaign, an election, coming up which does not have two candidates who are really very, very strongly disliked. I don't want to see the American people voting for the lesser of two evils.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC ANCHOR: Is that how you would describe Hillary Clinton against Donald Trump, the lesser of two evils?

SANDERS: Well, if you look - no, I wouldn't describe it, but that's what the American people are saying.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Wow.

ZELENY: Of course, Bernie Sanders there saying he's hot calling it that, but other people are calling it that. But, Brooke, the reality remains this, Hillary Clinton still has such a strong lead among both pledged and super delegates. Something just, you know, ginormous would have to happen for all those super delegates to switch over and that is so unlikely to happen. The question here is how much Bernie Sanders is going to keep going after her hard here in the final weeks before California.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: We will see what he says next hour in east L.A. We'll talk to you again, Mr. Zeleny. Thank you so much.

Let's broaden this out now and have a chat with CNN political director David Chalian and our chief political correspondent Dana Bash.

Awesome to see both of you.

David Chalian, you're up to the plate first. You know, when we talk about the rise of Trump and, you know, Clinton lowering in numbers and how close they are, do you think it's Hillary's Bernie problem? Do you think it's the big M.O. from Trump? Or some other x-factor here?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think what we're seeing is the result of one party's nomination race done, complete, somebody able to consolidate in Donald Trump his own party after a bruising nomination season and able to focus exclusively on the general election, versus somebody who still has a lingering nomination race and though it may be mathematically completed, she still clearly has to deal with the Sanders factor. Wooing his supporters is going to be probably her most important mission over the next couple of months when these - once these contests are done. I mean these polls show that anywhere between 17 and 20 percent of his supporters, Brooke, say that they're going to vote for Donald Trump in the fall. She's got to bring that number down and bring some of those folks back home.

BALDWIN: Yes.

CHALIAN: And she probably will be able to do so, but that is, I think, why we're seeing right now this very tightening of the national race between Trump and Clinton.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: And -

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Dana.

BASH: Yes. Yes. And just to add to that. That's why what Bernie Sanders says soon when he's going to speak in California, and over the next several weeks is so important. And there's a reason why Hillary Clinton underscored when she talked to Chris Cuomo last week how hard she worked when she lost to Barack Obama in 2008 to get her supporters who were in the camp that Bernie Sanders are right now to say, you know what, we've got to go behind Obama. If Bernie Sanders doesn't do that, and if he continues to say things like lesser of two evils or, you know, it's a little bit of a different drama, but say that he is so angry at the Democratic Party that he's going to support the Democratic National Committee chair's primary opponent in her House district in Florida, you know, those - all of those things send signals to already upset and energized supporters. If he doesn't start to change that rhetoric, when and if the time comes, that is going to be a big problem for Hillary Clinton and she obviously knows this.

BALDWIN: And to that point, there may not be a Unity, New Hampshire, moment for the two of them.

BASH: Exactly.

BALDWIN: Right, looking ahead, as she so explained with Cuomo.

So then that said, then it's also the issue is, when you look at - I think as long as any sort of poll has been done on the unfavorability rating of a candidate, right, no one has ever had such high numbers, especially both of them. Both Trump and Clinton, you know, have such negatives on that side. Dana, just staying with you, it's like half of the country, they're so highly polarizing. Half of the country loves them, half of the country, not so much.

BASH: To quote Sarah Palin, that hopey changey thing is - is - is not present right now, or I should say to borrow from her.

Look. It's true, these are two incredibly polarizing figures who are running, probably we should say, for the Democratic side, yet definitely on the Republican side, running in an incredibly polarized country. So, you know, they are reflecting the anger on both sides. No question about that. And in some ways the unfavorability kind of cancels each other out because, you know, in the past, we've had you know, just, for example, Barack Obama against John McCain. You know, John McCain was taking on all of the anger towards George W. Bush, who, at the time, obviously, was in the White House and Barack Obama was able to present this whole new point of view and this optimism. And neither of these candidates right now at this snapshot in time are appearing to do that.

[14:10:41] BALDWIN: Also today, David Chalian, Dana, thank you. You know, we're all playing the VP guessing game, just as we've seen, you know, Senator Bob Corker, Tennessee Republican, you know, finish visiting with Mr. Trump at Trump Tower. Senator Corker, you know, to cameras after the fact sort of down played any talk of his being vetted. Nevertheless, here's what he did say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BOB CORKER (R), TENNESSEE: I was up here last Monday meeting with Henry Kissinger. And, you know, I'm in New York a good deal and, you know, I think it's certainly worthwhile to sit down and get to know the nominee in a little bit different way. And we did that today.

But let me, again, I - I said this when this all came up a couple of weeks ago, I have no reason whatsoever to believe that I'm being considered for a position like that, you know? You know, I'll say that until I'm blue in my face. It's just, again, this was a meeting between two people who didn't know each other except over phone calls.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: David Chalian, you know, is this one of those moments, you know, when sometimes somebody sends you a compliment and you're like no, no, no, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Don't stop the complements. I mean he's going all the way to Trump Tower, which is unusual, is it not?

CHALIAN: Yes, but let me just say, there is a - there is sort of an art form here of how politicians answer the VP question.

BALDWIN: OK.

CHALIAN: Does Corker know that he is on a speculative list and that maybe at some point in the future he may be under consideration? Sure. That's why he, you know, uses his words so carefully to say, there's no reason for him to believe right now that he's under consideration.

Don't forget, he is the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Donald Trump is clearly trying to shore up on world affairs. And as he's trying to look towards the general election and take on that role of portraying himself to the country as a potential commander in chief who understands completely where the - where the United States fits in the global structure, somebody - talking to somebody like Bob Corker is a really important person for Donald Trump to talk to. So it's not crazy that they would have a conversation that doesn't involve the VP nomination, and yet if you listen to the way Donald Trump has described what he's looking for in a VP, Bob Corker would certainly fit the description.

BALDWIN: Fits the bill.

CHALIAN: Yes.

BALDWIN: Uh-huh. All right, David Chalian, thank you. Dana Bash, my friend, thank you as well.

We'll come back to politics but we do need to get to what's happened in Baltimore today. Breaking news, one of the officers charged in Freddie Gray's death has just been cleared of all charges. Hear the decision the defense made that could have made the massive difference.

Plus, a new development today in the mystery of that EgyptAir flight that disappeared. As crews continue searching, we are getting word today smoke alerts went off near the cockpit moments before the crash. We'll talk to Richard Quest.

And tragedy on Mt. Everest. Four people in four days dying on the world's tallest peak. We'll talk to a climber about what could be behind this.

You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:17:30] BALDWIN: Breaking news today out of the Baltimore, Maryland. One of six Baltimore police officers charged in last year's high-profile death of Freddie Gray has been acquitted on all charges. He is Officer Edward Nero. He opted for a bench trial so a judge could decide his case instead of a jury. And for this officer, it apparently paid off. Protesters, though, you can see them, though, speaking to cameras after the fact. You know, visibly upset that yet another trial has ended without a guilty verdict after Gray suffered a fatal spinal injury while in police custody. CNN's Miguel Marquez was in Baltimore through it all. He is back there in the wake of this decision from this judge.

And you had quite a fascinating conversation, Miguel Marquez, with Billy Murphy. We'll get to that in a moment. But what has Nero's attorney said?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, this was an incredible relief for Nero. I think going into today, he had a pretty good idea that he was getting off on most if not all the charges, but he didn't know it for sure. When that judge said, "not guilty on all charges," Edward Nero, who was standing, just put his head back, took in a deep breath, then put it forward and just began to sob.

His lawyer, Mark Zayon, has just released a statement saying that "Officer Nero, his wife and family are elated that this nightmare is finally over. The state's attorney for Baltimore city rushed to charge him, as well as the other five officers, completely disregarding the facts of the case and the applicable law." He goes on to thank the judge and also to say that the state's attorney should drop the charges against the rest of the lawyers - against the rest of the officers.

Now, the lawyer for Freddie Gray's family, I caught up with him just outside the courtroom, he was in there as well to hear that. Here's what he had to say about the judge's sentence - or his acquittal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM "BILLY" MURPHY, FREDDIE GRAY FAMILY'S ATTORNEY: I found no problem with the judge's reasoning. And, of course, the outcome about how he weighs the evidence is strictly up to him and not to us. I commend Judge Williams because he's one of those rare judges that disregarded public opinion. There was enormous pressure from the African-American community to get a conviction.

MARQUEZ: An African-American judge, we should say.

MURPHY: Yes. And he did not bend to that pressure. And so I think that the family is going to respect that opinion and await the outcome of the rest of the cases.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So thank you, Miguel Marquez, thank you. Let me bring in civil rights attorney Charles Coleman Jr. He's also a former prosecutor and trial attorney.

Nice to see you back.

CHARLES COLEMAN JR., CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Good to see you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: I wanted to ask you specifically on that exchange. I mean that is the man who's been representing Freddie Gray's family and he was saying - I mean I was like, wow. I was listening, taking notes earlier today, "I commend him," talking about this judge in this case, "couldn't ask for a fairer minded judge." Thoughts on how he described him?

[14:20:14] COLEMAN: Well, at first it was a little bit surprising, but when I thought about it, Brooke, he could be doing a little bit of gamesmanship in as much as this is a case that is eventually going to go to a civil trial. And the world is watching how he responds, the world is watching how the family responds and I think that he is mindful of the idea of playing quote/unquote the race card or being labeled as playing the race card.

So now you have an African-American judge, you have a victim who's this young, African-American boy, and so he talks about how he felt this judge was fair, even minded and conscious of justice when it - in terms of how he litigated this case. So when it comes to the civil trial, now with respect to how he litigates in the civil case, he's not going to be so easily baited as, oh, he's a race baiter or labeled as a race baiter or someone who's playing the race card because you've already seen an example of him during the criminal trial saying basically, hey, this was fair, this was done appropriately, this was in the interest of justice. So now in the civil trial, he has a little bit of room to play with, so that could have been a factor in terms of how he went about this.

BALDWIN: That said, again, just reminding everyone, it was six officers who were all implicated in this - in this death. First trial ended with a hung jury. Second, we just saw it was bench, meaning judge only there, no jury involved, acquitting him. On to the next several officers. The next who was, you know, it's also important the roles these different officers played. The next trial involves Caesar Goodson, who was driving the van, right? And so who decides whether they want just a judge?

COLEMAN: That's going to be a decision that the defendants will make. They can waive their right to a jury trial. As you all know, you have a constitutional right to a trial by a jury of your peers, but you can wave that right if you are a defendant. And what that does is it puts the case squarely in front of the judge as a bench trial, but then it becomes a question of law, not a question of fact. Jurors are fact determiners. They determine what the facts may have been depending on what they hear from each side. But when you put it in front of a judge, you're basically conceding what the facts are and asking for the judge to make a ruling specifically on the law. And in a case like this, where public opinion and public pressure weighs so heavily, when you do make it about black and white letter law and you put it in front of the judge, it gives those defendants more of a fighting chance. So this was a strategic move by Nero's attorneys and it would not at all surprise me to see any one of the remaining four defendants in this case opt for a jury trial as well - I mean a bench trial, as well.

BALDWIN: But that said, just quickly here, we could see very different outcomes because the roles these different officers played vary depending on the day, correct?

COLEMAN: Absolutely. When it comes - when it comes to whether they are liable or criminally liable, whether it's a civil trial you're talking about or a criminal trial, because everyone had a level of responsibility that differed from the next, because everyone had different actions that differed from the next officer that was responsible for doing whatever it was in terms of transporting Freddie Gray and keeping him in custody, you absolutely could see different outcomes not proceeded by what we've already seen. Although I will say that right now it does appear that the state's case is in some trouble.

BALDWIN: OK. Charles Coleman, thank you so much.

COLEMAN: Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: We'll talk again. The next one is a big one. Appreciate it.

Next, a city under siege. More than two years after the Iraqi city of Fallujah fell into ISIS' hands, right now the battle is underway to take it back. We have exclusive new video into CNN taking you to the front lines. That's next. Also, four climbers, four, killed in four days on Mt. Everest. What

went so terribly wrong? We'll talk to someone who attempted it four times, made it to the summit once. What does he think, coming up?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:28:10] BALDWIN: We're back with breaking news in the fight against ISIS. Bombs hailing down on the Iraqi city of Fallujah, a city U.S. soldiers fought and died to liberate. Now the flashpoint of a violent assault against ISIS. These are the brand-new pictures that we have here that are believed to show the start of an operation to retake the besieged ISIS stronghold. And just like in 2004, during the Iraq War, Americans are again involved in this fight. This time mostly from the sky.

The Iraqi prime minister talking to national TV today, making the announcement, telling all citizens in the city to flee. To get out.

Let's talk about that with Lieutenant Colonel Scott Mann.

Colonel Mann, welcome back.

LT. COL. SCOTT MANN (RET.), GREEN BERET, U.S. ARMY SPECIAL FORCES: Hey, Brooke. Thanks for having me on.

BALDWIN: So, straight to it, Fallujah. You know, ISIS, as we mentioned, took control of the city. It was January 14. The assault now why and remind us why Fallujah is so strategically important.

MANN: Well, I mean, first of all, Fallujah's a critical city just in terms of infrastructure to Iraq. It's an extremely large city. And it's also home to a lot of marginalized Sunnis. And so taking this - taking this town back is critical to overall Iraqi stability. And I think it's a good idea, obviously, that we - we root these guys out of here. But I am concerned, Brooke. I mean how many times have we swept through these cities in the last 15 years? And I don't think it's the singular strategy that it's enough.

BALDWIN: We were just talking on TV last week about Baghdad. In Baghdad you had dozens who were killed in a wave of bombings at outdoor markets and restaurants there. And so, you know, now the new attempt to retake Fallujah. I know you have said it's time to change the game by going local. Tell me what you mean by that.

[14:30:00] MANN: Well, absolutely. I mean, you know, during the Iraqi surge in 2006, our coalition forces worked with many of those same margined Sunni tribes that ISIS is now leveraging as support for their safe haven, Brooke. And we did the same thing in --