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Protests Outside Trump New Mexico Rally; New Mexico's GOP Governor Refused to Attend Trump Rally. Aired Midnight-1a ET

Aired May 25, 2016 - 00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[00:00:12] JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: This is the scene right now in downtown Albuquerque, where police are trying to clear protesters, anti-Donald Trump protesters, from outside a Trump rally which ended about an hour or so ago. Protesters have thrown rocks and bottles. A door was smashed at the convention center. A number of protesters have, in fact, been removed from inside the Donald Trump rally, as well.

ISHA SESAY, CNN ANCHOR: Well, yes, that is the scene. Live pictures there. Young people, as we're told, still out there on the streets. Police trying to clear them out, but they are still out there. Some waving Mexican flags as you can see.

Let's get the very latest on the situation there in Albuquerque.

VAUSE: Jim Acosta joins us. Jim, you were covering Trump in Albuquerque. You are now on the streets of Albuquerque. So, what is the latest with police as they try to remove the protesters from the streets?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT, via satellite: Yes, John and Isha, I can tell you right now, we're in the middle of downtown Albuquerque. This entire intersection was shut down, was basically controlled by these anti-Trump protesters but now you can see Albuquerque Police starting to move in. They're on horseback, and they are pushing these protesters out of this intersection, where they were basically in control.

With just a few moments notice, just a few moments ago, they started moving these bicycle rack barricades toward the crowd and then these police officers in riot gear on horseback started pushing this crowd out of this area. As you can hear -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trump! Trump!

ACOSTA: Thank you, sir. Thank you. As you can see, there are protesters who are protesting against Donald Trump scattered throughout the area. They are basically dominating this scene right now. But, John and Isha, the Albuquerque Police Department are starting to get control on this situation.

There's a gentleman here, right now, in front of me saying, this is what happens when you bring Donald Trump in here. As you can see, Albuquerque Police trying to get a handle on the situation. They are moving these protesters out of this area of downtown Albuquerque. John and Isha?

SESAY: All right; Jim Acosta, standby for us. We appreciate the live reporting from the scene. We can see the mounted police there, among the protesters as you described, trying to move those protesters away from that intersection.

Let's bring in our Dan Simon, who is also out there in Albuquerque, where these protests are taking place. Dan, I know you have been out there for a little while. What kicked this off? what set off these angry scenes?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well it started when some of the protesters actually got through some police barricades and got to the front door of the Convention Center where Donald Trump was speaking. Then from there, things quickly descended into chaos. You had several of the protesters throwing bottles and rocks at police. For the last few hours, you basically had this chaotic situation on the streets.

Jim Acosta spoke a moment ago about police pushing the protesters (inaudible) here in Downtown Albuquerque, that's all they're doing. They're just pushing them down the street. They are still here. You can see hundreds of them right here in the street, Isha, holding the Mexican flag and police are trying to do everything they can to get the people to go home but they just want to stay put.

They clearly are enjoying this moment, for lack of a better word. They seem to be enjoying it, Isha. They want to have this sort of standoff with police. It's very loud out here, as you can see these people on motorcycles revving their vehicles. That's really what I can tell you at the moment, Isha.

Police continuing to get these protesters down the street. That's all they're doing. They are not leaving, no signs of them leaving whatsoever.

I have to tell you; I'm having a very difficult time hearing as this guy on the motorcycle revving so loud.

VAUSE: Okay, Dan, we're having a bit of trouble hearing Dan above all of the noise right now.

SESAY: Yes.

VAUSE: You can hear the revving of engines, the people on the streets are yelling. They have Mexican flags. A lot of people are very unhappy about Donald Trump's anti-Mexican messages, which is anti- immigrant, according to many people there, who are obviously out there protesting.

Jim Acosta is still with us. Jim, there are also scenes in the last hour or so of protesters jumping on a police car. They set fires as well. Was this widespread violence or was it fairly concentrated in just a few areas?

[00:05:01] Okay; we're still trying to get back to Jim Acosta, as you can see. He's at another part of this protest. There you can see the police on horseback, the Albuquerque Police have moved into the area outside the Convention Center. They're trying to move these protesters on. As you can see, they are determined not to leave; certainly not yet.

SESAY: Yes.

VAUSE: Keep in mind that this rally, this campaign stop by Donald Trump ended more than an hour or so ago but these protesters are remaining outside.

Our Political Editor Mark Preston is also with us. He is live in D.C. right now. So, Mark Preston, as we look at this scene of violence outside this Donald Trump campaign, is this something which we can now expect as this election moves closer to the conventions and beyond?

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICAL EXECUTIVE EDITOR: Well, John, no question about that. You know, we should probably separate what we're seeing out there and what we have seen at Trump rallies in the past. Donald Trump has been criticized, and probably rightfully so, for inciting violence amongst his own supporters who would then attack those who would interrupt his rallies. What we are seeing right now on your screen is, we're seeing anti-Trump protesters, folks who are outside the convention center where he spoke, folks who are very upset, folks who are themselves inciting violence, in clashing with police officers who are trying to keep the peace.

Now, to your point, will we see this because of the rhetoric that Donald Trump has used that has incited folks like these to come out and do that? Will we see that more and more? Very likely. That will very likely happen as we head into Cleveland, but I do think that it is worth pointing out that for both sides need to lower the temperature. Those folks outside right now, not all of them, many of them are peacefully protesting.

What we have seen on social media is some of them have gone up to the police officers and thanked them for their service tonight. However, those that are clashing, that are engaging in violence, that are jumping on police cars, that are throwing rocks at police officers, while that is allowed, per se, in our democracy, in the sense that they are allowed to express their opinions and thoughts, what they are not allowed to do is to engage in violence. We have seen it from Trump supporters and now we're seeing it on other side, John.

SESAY: Mark, let me ask you this as we take a look at the scenes there in Albuquerque, what are the political ramification? What are the implications of this, going forward? What do you see?

PRESTON: Right; so, a great question because what is probably going to happen from this is if you are a Donald Trump supporter, you are going to look at these images and it is only going to harden your stance. If you are somebody who was on the edge, who thinks that America has given away too much to immigrants or you believe that Donald Trump is speaking a message that you believe in, then these images are only going to make you want to support him.

Having said that, you certainly are going to see people in the middle who seize this type of violence, and they will place the blame squarely at the doorstep of Donald Trump. He will lose support for this, there's no question about it. The question is, though, when we go into November, you are going to see a country very much divided. You will see the Trump supporters. You will see the very likely Hillary Clinton supporters, as she was on her way to becoming the Democratic nominee.

Then you will see -

VAUSE: Hold that thought because -- sorry to interrupt, Mark. We're going back to Dan Simon who is on the scene there right now. He has an update on what is actually going on where he is because we know the police have been trying to clear this crowd. Dan?

SIMON: Hey, John; police continuing to try to clear this crowd in downtown San Francisco. You can see police on horseback, pushing these protesters down the street. It's a very chaotic situation to say the very least. These people do not want to go home. Ultimately, I hate to say it, police may have to use some force against some of these protesters.

All night they have shown remarkable strength in dealing with them but as the crowd has become more unruly, police may be forced to escalate things a bit. If you can see, they are continuing to drive this crowd down the street. You can see people waving the Mexican flag.

The numbers aren't quite what they were, John. You can see it's a significantly smaller crowd than it was only a few minutes ago. These seem to be the last of the people out here and, hopefully, will come to their senses, if you will, and go home. You can see a protester tried to throw something at police.

SESAY: Dan, as you make mention of -- as you make mention of those who are still out there, you say the crowd is somewhat less than it was a short time [00:10:01] ago. Who is out there? Give us a sense of is it predominantly young people? Are they predominantly Hispanic? I mean, just give us some sense of who is out there protesting right now, you know, creating these scenes we're watching on our screens.

SIMON: These are mainly young people. I'm not quite sure if they were even at the Trump event, protesting, or if these are people just causing trouble. It's really hard to tell. I'm going to move back because, you know.

Sorry about that, Isha. I have to make my way down the street. Came pretty close to a police officer on a horse.

SESAY: You make sure you are safe, Dan; that's important. Make sure you are safe.

SIMON: It is quite crazy out here to say the very least.

VAUSE: As Dan Simon repositions, Dan, if you can still hear us, -- we've still got you, Dan.

SESAY: We're still here, Dan. Dan, just set the scene. What is happening around you now.

SIMON: I'm just walking down the street here. Police are just pushing people back and at a certain point, something has to give here. I don't know what it's going to take for these folks to go home. Police doing everything they can, short of using extreme measures. Right now they're trying to use the horses to get people to push back.

Dan, just moments ago we saw the protesters moving those big skiffs, the big trash skiffs, putting them into place. Have they been using them to try to lock the police on horseback and other vehicles as well, sort of makeshift barricades, if you like, against the police?

SIMON: You know, I think police are kind of making things up as they go. I'm not quite sure they fully anticipated this. In comparison to some of the other rallies we have been to, there have been -

VAUSE: We're having trouble with Dan's communication right now, his audio -- hold with us, Dan. We want to go to Jim Acosta, who is also in Downtown Albuquerque, outside the Convention Center. So, Jim, we have seen what is happening at Dan's location. What is happening where you are right now?

ACOSTA: I'm not very far from where Dan is located right now. We're in the middle of downtown Albuquerque as well. You can see this line of mounted police officers in riot gear. They are slowly but surely clearing this protest out block by block. They're moving barricades as they walk. The horses are moving the protesters out of the area, and as they do that, as they go block by block, this crowd of demonstrators is getting smaller and smaller.

So one thing we can say is it looks like Albuquerque Police are starting to get a handle on this, starting to tamp this down, but just a few moments ago we saw Albuquerque Police trying to follow some protesters down an alley. Those protesters moved dumpsters to block their path into that alley. We saw an article moved at one of the police officers. You could hear a police officer behind me now ordering this crowd to keep moving.

One thing I could tell you, John and Isha, is we can smell what is basically burning rubber in the area. You have probably seen these plumes of smoke every few minutes throughout our coverage. That's basically just people screeching their tires like something out of "Fast and Furious." That's been kicking up a lot of smoke here in downtown Albuquerque.

But I can tell you, just by covering this over the last couple of hours, John and Isha, we have gone from a crowd of demonstrators that was in the hundreds to one that is now in the dozens. It's starting to shrink down as these police officers move block by block to move the protests out of the area. John and Isha?

SESAY: And, Jim, let me ask you this: as we take in the scenes, the crowds that gathered, was it a spontaneous gathering? Was this gather, were these protests organized by any particular groups? What do we know? ACOSTA: Well I think some of this was planned. I mean, there was some reporting before Donald Trump came to Albuquerque that there were a lot of organizations in this area who were very upset with Donald Trump's immigration rhetoric. The Governor of New Mexico, Republican, Susana Martinez, she refused to appear at this rally tonight. She said she was too busy; that was the answer she gave reporters but she has been irritated with Donald Trump's rhetoric on immigration. So, yes, by and large, you are seeing the Mexican flags being raised and waved here.

There are a lot of people who live in New Mexico who are proud to be Americans but they also are proud of their heritage. So they take a lot of offense to what Donald Trump has said out on the campaign trail. I can tell you, when we were in the rally and there were protestors sporadically being [00:15:03] led out of that event, they were protesting against Donald Trump's immigration policies. As they were being led out of the event, there were people inside the rally chanting, "Build That Wall, Build That Wall."

So in many - in some sense, guys, Donald Trump was coming into a bit of a powder keg by coming to Albuquerque, New Mexico. This is a state that has a very -- it has the highest percentage of Latinos in it the United States, when it comes to any state. So it had to be expected if he came to Albuquerque, if he came to this state, he was going to meet resistance to his message and that's what he found here in Albuquerque here tonight.

Now obviously, it's a lot more tense, it's a lot more chaotic than what we expected. Who would have thought we were going to see riot police on horseback pushing people out of the downtown area; but that's precisely what we're seeing right now. This is a situation we're not supposed to see after political rallies here in the United States but we have seen this time and again throughout the course of the campaign, whether in Chicago or Kansas City where they had to use pepper spray. There have been altercations between law enforcement and people who are just very much opposed to the candidacy of Donald Trump. John and Isha?

VAUSE: Jim Acosta there -

SESAY: Thank you.

VAUSE: -- on the streets of Albuquerque, along with Dan Simon who is reporting, from the midst of the chaos and confusion as these protests confront police as they try and clear this scene that has been ongoing for more than an hour.

Donald Trump rally there, 4,000 or so turned up. This is the scene outside right now. We will take a short break in our continuing coverage of this breaking news. We'll be back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (WEATHER HEADLINES)

[00:20:37] VAUSE: Welcome back everybody to our breaking news coverage of the chaos in downtown Albuquerque right now, as police on horseback try to clear the streets outside of a Donald Trump rally, which ended a few hours ago.

As you can see now, the police are trying to move a small number of protesters away, but there have been reports of bottles and rocks which have been thrown. A door was smashed. Fires have also been lit.

Mark Preston is following these developments. He joins us from Washington, D.C. So, Mark, essentially, as we look at the situation in Albuquerque, was this expected by the Trump campaign? Is this something which they were making plans for or were they caught off guard?

PRESTON: I think in many ways that you are always expecting something like this to happen but perhaps not to the level that we have seen it tonight. We should note that these are the anti-Trump protesters that are outside.

We do have an update from the Albuquerque Police Department, John. Let me just tell you what they are saying right now on social media. They are saying that the Donald Trump protesters have left the area basically and the remaining contingent of protests are only looking to cause trouble and be destructive. So the protesters we saw there earlier today and through the evening, the Albuquerque Police are now telling us that they have dispersed, but there is a new set of protesters that have come in, that are just joining us in the mayhem.

The pictures, if you have been watching tonight, have shown rocks and bottles being thrown at the Albuquerque Police, who have been protecting the Coliseum, where Donald Trump was speaking. We have also seen them, these protesters or, I guess would you call them protesters at this point, but these rioters jumping on Albuquerque police cars.

So, at this point, as our correspondents on the ground have told us, it's starting to get a little bit smaller than what we have seen earlier in the evening but, seriously, still an important and serious situation we're seeing in Albuquerque. John?

SESAY: Mark, appreciate the update you gave there, from the Albuquerque police. Do stand by for us because here in the studio, we have with us Democratic strategist Dave Jacobson and Republican Consultant John Thomas, friends of the show. Always good to you have with us, especially on a night like this, as we look at the scenes in Albuquerque.

To be clear, as you heard Mark say, the Donald Trump protesters have left. This is a different group of folks that are out there causing trouble. Let's look at this and put it in context. What are the political implications of things like this happening?

JOHN THOMAS, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT AND PRESIDENT, THOMAS PARTNERS STRATEGIES: Well, number one, I'm surprised we haven't seen more of this, since we were in Chicago. We saw the large protests. It's surprising this is the first time after that event.

It does underscore though that Donald Trump is going to have to face this throughout the campaign and the question is, are these people just vocal dissenters against Donald Trump or are they disrupters in general? And, is this a larger statement about what Americans think about our political process in general and they are angry at the establishment?

I would say, though, parading around with Mexican flags does not help the cause in an American election.

VAUSE: John, some people have also made the comment in the last couple of hours, this has been a negative campaign, on both sides, both Democrat and Republican side, Bernie Sanders calling for a revolution. We have seen scenes of chaos and anger in Nevada, with the Bernie Sanders supporters. So, when you have a campaign which is being run like this and you have all this anger, which is being built up, this is it the end result. There is enough blame to go around on all sides here.

DAVE JACOBSON, CAMPAIGN CONSULTANT, SHALLMAN COMMUNICATIONS: I think this underscores the real challenge that Donald Trump has, sort of pivoting from the Republican campaign, where you are going up against 16 other Republicans, pivoting - and you're dividing amongst themselves, pivoting to the general election where you have to unite the American voters. I think the challenge is this is sort of defined as the political volcanic eruption that Donald Trump campaign has become, unfortunately. I think it really highlights the fact that he's going to have to make a swift pivot away from the divide and conquer campaign, if he wants to coalesce support from Independent voters who will deliver victory in November.

VAUSE: But do you accept the premise that there's enough blame to go around on all sides here, not just Donald Trump and his rhetoric but also on the other side as well?

JACOBSON: I don't think you are seeing this kind of protest on the Democratic side. We've only seen that once in Nevada, so I think that was really an anomaly but we have seen this in every corner of the country on the Republican side. Frankly, it has been surrounding Donald Trump's campaign.

[00:25:01] THOMAS, off camera: Donald Trump is not running as a uniter though. He's trying to tap into the anger of the electorate. Now, this isn't exactly what he had in mind, but he is trying to tap into America is getting a raw deal and he is trying to harness that frustration.

SESAY: Let's draw our viewers' attention to what is happening on streets of Albuquerque for a moment. We see the police forming something of a line to the right of the screen. Folks are still out there. They are still significant numbers. They have dwindled greatly, as Jim Acosta and Dan Simon have made the point, but we just want to bring our viewers' attention to what is happening. Still a lot of movement, a lot of activity on streets of Albuquerque.

VAUSE: And as Mark Preston made the point, we are hearing from the Albuquerque Police, these are no longer the anti-Trump protesters. These are just stragglers who, in the words of the Albuquerque Police, are the ones who essentially want to cause trouble. The anti-Trump protests essentially left a while back.

So now we have this situation where it looks, I mean, from a distance at least, mostly young men who are confronting the police and are refusing to leave the streets of Albuquerque. There is that line of police. You can see them there on horseback. Obviously, right now, there does only seem to be a few dozen people -- I don't want to call them protesters, but people, remaining on the streets. It's 10:28 in Albuquerque, right now, New Mexico. This could go on for a while.

John, you made the point that Donald Trump is tapping into anger. That's the anger getting him all of the votes, more votes in a primary election than any other Republican before. The flip side of tapping into that anger, is it's sparking this anger from those who are opposed to it?

THOMAS: Sure; I mean, there's good with bad here. He is going to have to figure out -- he is not going to completely rid the protesters. I think they're going to continue on. As we saw in Chicago, and as we are seeing tonight, the protests are doing what they desired, which is political theater. They want us to cover it. So we're giving them, in essence, what they want. So we're going to see this continue, probably through November.

SESAY: Dave, as you look at these pictures, as a Democrat, and a Democratic strategist at one point, what would your next move be here, to kind of highlight this and form a strategy off the back of it? What would that be?

JACOBSON: if I'm Hillary Clinton I'm capitalizing on her brand new messages, we're stronger together. We're united together. She's trying to come up with a brand, saying, look; we're all in this together. She's even sort of trying to sort of reach out to moderate Republicans. We saw that a couple weeks ago in her closing remarks after one of the elections. I think that's her brand moving forward. She's going to try to come off as the rational, pragmatic leader who are can bring Americans together and move the country forward. She's going to contrast that with Donald Trump being the divider-in-chief.

VAUSE: David and John, we know we're speaking with you in the next couple of hours, so stay with us. In the meantime, we'll take a short break here. We will continue to look at those live pictures coming to us from Albuquerque as we go to break. You can see police there, in riot gear, with helmets on, carrying batons. The police on horseback behind them, as they confront the remaining demonstrators outside the convention center.

A lot more of our breaking news in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:31:29] SESAY: Welcome back, everyone. We want to bring you up to speed with the breaking news. These scenes out of Albuquerque, New Mexico, where police are trying to get control of these crowds that you see out there, on the streets.

This all started as protests outside of a Donald Trump rally a short time ago. Police trying to get people off the streets and send them on their way but they persist. We have been told just a short time ago by our own Mark Preston, CNN Political Editor, that those who remain on the streets, who you are looking at on your screens right now, are no longer Donald Trump protesters, according to Albuquerque police. They are saying that these folks who are out there are just individuals looking to cause trouble.

VAUSE: Okay; Dan Simon is on the scene. He joins us now, live, with the very latest. So, Dan, last time we spoke you had to relocate; you had to move away from the police on horseback. What's the latest there now?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hey, John and Isha; I'm not quite sure what the strategy is, in terms of what Albuquerque police are doing. They just keep pushing the protesters down the street, hoping that eventually as they move down, the crowds will disperse. At this point, that strategy is not working because you still have a number of people out here. You can see some smoke. I don't know if that's tear gas or something that the protesters have lit. Clearly, you still have a chaotic situation here in downtown Albuquerque. Still a number of protesters on the streets.

Again, you alluded to this just a moment ago. It's not clear, I guess, if these are anti-Trump protesters or if these are people simply trying to cause trouble. All I know is that the trouble really began after some protesters got through some police barricades. Some protesters got through police barricades at the convention center, where Donald Trump was speaking, and they tried to get inside. Police, in full riot gear, kept them at bay but right after that, things quickly descended into chaos. You had a number of people throwing both bottles and rocks at police officers. It has been tense ever since.

Now here we are at just after 10:30 local time, police still dealing with this situation and trying to get these people to go home. I don't know what it's going to take for this to end it, but it's still looking pretty ugly down here. John and Isha?

VAUSE: Dan, just recap for us, essentially, was there violence on the streets there? Were rocks and bottles thrown, barricades torn down, I think a police car was jumped on by some of the demonstrators at some point?

SIMON: That's exactly right. You had people throwing objects at police officers; thankfully, I haven't seen anybody get hurt. We have seen fighting in the streets between either some of the protesters or protester against a Trump supporter. We have seen some of that go on. Now, as you see, police still in full riot gear. They're just pushing everybody down the street; that seems to be the strategy. It doesn't seem to be working.

The crowds, yes, are thinner than what they were just a short time ago but still a lot of people out here. The concern, of course, is you have a lot of buildings here in downtown Albuquerque. You don't want to see any destruction [00:35:01] of property. You don't want to see windows broken or things like that. That's when I guess you would see police step in and take a more aggressive stance against this crowd. For now, they have basically shown restraint trying to get these people to leave.

Now you can see them actually firing what appears to be either pepper spray or tear gas into the crowd. You see that? You can see them firing some canisters, coming close to us. We're going to move back a little bit. As you can see -

SESAY: Dan, go ahead and -

SIMON: -- the officers, they're continuing to -- they're continuing to advance on this crowd. We got pepper spray.

SESAY: Dan, keep a safe distance from that if you can. Stay on the move; but as we look at these pictures and these people still out on the street, are they trying to directly engage the police or -- you see one young person obviously they put something in their eyes.

VAUSE: That person has been pepper sprayed; that, of course, happened there, right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She'll be fine.

SIMON: Yes, it's pepper spray because I feel it in my throat.

VAUSE: That's the reaction, yes.

SIMON: You saw a woman who took a direct hit to her eyes.

SESAY: Are you okay to keep going, Dan? I know you said you feel it in your throat there.

SIMON: Yes, I can keep -- it's definitely pepper spray. I can feel it in my throat, but I'm okay. Go ahead.

SESAY: Very difficult position to be in there, with pepper spray out there in the air all around you. Dan, as you look at the police there with the people still out there, protesters if you will, are the protesters trying to directly engage the police? Are they keeping a distance? Describe what you can see from your vantage point.

SIMON: Well, I would say that the spray was pretty effective in getting people to move back. You don't see the protesters right in front of the officers that you saw only a short time ago. You see a woman here who took a direct hit to her eyes. I would say that was pretty effective, in

terms of getting people to move back.

What happens from here, it's really unclear. You still have dozens of people on the streets but they seem to be very upset, what police just did in terms of the pepper spray. Quite honestly, I'm not sure police had another choice. They have done -- they tried to get the crowd to go home for the last several hours and nobody has left. Things have gotten a bit unruly with the rocks and the bottles. So now -

VAUSE: So, Dan - SIMON: -- they have taken things up a notch, if you will.

VAUSE: Do, Dan, just looking at the images live, right now, 10:37 p.m. local time, in Albuquerque right now, I just saw two people who looked like they had goggles on as well as handkerchiefs wrapped around their face, sort of a mask, essentially. Is there a small group of people here who came prepared for trouble, who are the ringleaders in all of this? Can you add anything to that?

SIMON: No question about it. When you come to an event like this or a demonstration or a protest and you have either a gas mask or something to cover your face, you are clearly anticipating some kind of trouble. We have seen a number of people with those goggles, with those masks, some people right in front of us actually. So whether or not these are the instigators, obviously, it's not clear but it's clear from us that they came at least significant number of people we should add, I mean, we saw a lot of people throwing the rocks at officers. People came to cause trouble, no question about it. Whether they were part of the original anti-Trump movement isn't clear but, you know, they came to square off with police officers, no question about it.

VAUSE: Because what is interesting about this right now is that you don't turn up to a peaceful rally to express your disagreement on a political point of view if you are carrying a gas mask, if you have a handkerchief to put around your face, if you have goggles in case of teargas or pepper spray. Also, what was interesting is that when that woman was pepper sprayed by the police, there seemed to be two or three young men who ran up to her, they flushed her eyes out. They were obviously ready and prepared because they knew exactly what had happened. I guess the question to you is, do we know who these organizers may be, what their point is and exactly what will it take to get them off the streets?

SIMON: Well, I think it's fair to call them anarchists. they wanted to [00:40:02] square off with police officers. When you come to an event like this with bottles and you light things on fire, you are right, that is not democracy. That is not a peaceful protest. For most of the day, things were peaceful. We did see a peaceful anti- Trump protest. It wasn't until you had that initial breakdown of the barricades, where you had a number of people try to get into the convention center and actually get into the event where Donald Trump was speaking, it was then when things spun out of control, with the bottles and rocks, lighting flags on fire, lighting Donald Trump shirts and other gear on fire.

Then the police came in. They took a somewhat aggressive stance but they weren't really arresting people. They were just trying to clear people out. And as, you know -- as things got dark, if you will, it was the young people who stayed. We're talking about really only young people out here at the moment. These are the folks who are causing problems and I would say the crowd now the dozens, not the hundreds. It's probably just a matter of time until police really take a more aggressive stance and get everybody out of here.

SESAY: All right, well, Dan, stand by for us. We're going to take a very quick break and we will come back to the scenes that are playing out on the streets of Albuquerque in a moment. Stand by for us. We're going to take a very quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SESAY: Welcome back, everyone. You are looking at live pictures from Albuquerque, New Mexico, where it's 10:44 local time there and there are angry scenes taking place there on the streets. This all began outside a [00:45:01] Donald Trump rally from earlier on. I want to go to our Dan Simon, who is there on the scene, to get the very latest. Dan, what are you seeing? What are you hearing? What's happening around you?

SIMON: Hey, Isha; this now looks, finally, to be breaking up. You can see still a number of police officers behind me but I'm not seeing the group of protesters that we saw a little while ago. There's still a few of them back there, over there by the church; but they seem to be dispersing, thankfully.

It has been quite a chaotic scene here in downtown Albuquerque this evening with these protesters. They took to the streets in the hundreds. They were facing off with police officers. They were throwing rocks and bottles at them. They were burning things. They were bouncing on police cars. It was a very tense situation. Police basically pushed the crowd back, in full riot gear; they were on horseback, just pushing the crowd back, to try to get the crowd thinner. Finally, that's -- that strategy seems to have paid off because, as of right now, just before 11:00 local time, the crowd seems to be gone.

Quite a tense situation. Police, just moments ago, fired tear gas canisters into the crowd. That seemed really to do the trick, to get the crowds to leave. Isha?

SESAY: All right, Dan, appreciate it. Do stand by for us. We will come back to you for an update. We want to turn now to our guests in the studio for some perspective on all of this.

VAUSE: Eric Berman, Vice Chair for the California Democratic Party is with us. KABC Talk Radio Host and Trump Supporter Jon Phillips.

Jon, first to you: I know the answer will be -- is there a responsibility on Donald Trump to turn down the rhetoric, at least in some part, to try to avoid -- I'm not saying he is responsible for this, but is there a responsibility -- is there an action he can take to try and avoid these kind of things?

JON PHILLIPS: No. We have always had spicy political speech in this country. Protesting has always been an American tradition, but I object to these people being referred to as protesters. Protesters are out there with picket signs, they're out there with voter registration forms. They're not throwing rocks. They're not assaulting police officers. They're not starting fires. These people are criminals and thugs.

SESAY: Eric, to go to you, how do you see this? Are you pointing the finger of blame at the Trump campaign?

ERIC BERMAN: Well, look, from the begin, Trump's rhetoric has been designed to bring divide America, to make people angry, to bring out the worst in us and he's done that with his anti-immigrant rhetoric, his misogynistic rhetoric, his continuous use of phraseology and terminology that's designed to separate and divide us and to make people angry. At a time when so many in America, on both sides of the aisle, are frustrated, don't feel like things are working right for them, it's much easier than it normally is in a political season to get people agitated.

VAUSE: But, Eric, you would not condone what's happening on the streets of Albuquerque?

BERMAN: No, of course I wouldn't condone it.

VAUSE: You're not blaming Donald Trump for that? The people who are responsible are the ones lighting the fires?

BERMAN, off camera: So, first of all, there's two points: one is who is responsible. People who are acting like idiots are responsible; but as to who is agitating them, let's not remove the fact that he is contributing to this by his continuous use of language that makes people angry and causes this.

PHILLIPS, off camera: I would blame the university systems. I would blame the public education system for this because you look at what goes on in college campuses. Any time somebody says something that you disagree with its hate speech and then you shut it down. If you can't shut it down, you behave like this. It's not just political speech. You listen to comedians like Jerry Seinfeld, Chris Rock, who are afraid to perform at college campuses. This is all too predictable.

BERMAN: But most of the people out there are not college graduates or even college educated.

PHILLIPS: That's true.

VAUSE: I have to agree.

BERMAN: I agree with you; it is at a point of ridiculousness sometimes with the speech protection patterns that are going on college campuses. Having said that, the people who are out there who are so angry, the people who are protesting immigrants, the people who are doing all these things, they're filled with rage. They're fueling the excitement of this election --

SESAY: Again, is there anything that -- should anything change on the part of the Trump campaign when it comes to rhetoric, bearing in mind what Eric has said?

PHILLIPS: No. The Trump supporters were peacefully assembled inside the arena to listen to a candidate for public office give a speech. They were being peaceful. The violence was going on outside by these violent thugs and criminals. VAUSE: We should make the point though, the police did say these are

not the anti-Donald Trump protesters.

SESAY: Yes, they did say that.

VAUSE: They all left. The police, the Albuquerque police, not me, so don't roll your eyes at me -- the Albuquerque police are saying these are essentially people who are staying behind who just wanted to make trouble. So we need to get that out there.

PHILLIPS: Part of the problem is the police have been defamed. How long do they wait before they started shooting tear gas in? We have a political establishment that reflexively sides against the cops. These police officers [00:50:02] were assaulted on live television and they just had to sit back and take it. There's a silent majority in this country that's watching this violence take place, live on CNN right now, with the Mexican flags and the rocks being thrown and the cops being assaulted, and they are appalled. This is bad for the country but it's probably good for Donald Trump electoral prospects.

VAUSE: So, Eric, there's a reaction from the Trump campaign. I will ask you to -- your thoughts on this, but this is coming from a senior aide to Donald Trump, a tweet: "Watching thugs and punks in Albuquerque en route to California. They don't even know what they are protesting."

BERMAN: They know what they're protesting? Come on. You can use diminutive language, you can say it's disgusting and its garbage and it doesn't mean anything but it does mean something. These people are angry and frustrated and don't like the way he talks. They don't like the way that he reflects. When all you do is tear America down and tear the people in America down, this is the net result if what you get.

The thing that we need to have s a hopeful campaign. We need to be talking about a positive future for America.

VAUSE: Come back next hour because we're going to talk about this some more. In the meantime, we will take a very short break. You are watching CNN's continuing coverage as the police in downtown Albuquerque try to clear the last of these demonstrators outside this Trump rally. You are watching CNN's breaking news.

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[00:55:10] VAUSE: Welcome back, everybody. Our breaking news this hour, just after 10:55 in Albuquerque, New Mexico right now, where police in riot gear and on horseback are trying to disperse the last of an angry mob from the streets of the downtown area. All of this started as a peaceful anti-Donald Trump protest by hundreds of people, but it turned violent as rocks and bottles were thrown by a small number of demonstrators. A door to a convention center was smashed. Donald Trump was inside at the time, holding a campaign rally for about 4,000 people.

Right now, as we can see on streets, the police have been trying to clear the last of those demonstrators. Police say they are not the anti-Donald Trump protesters but rather a small group of people who are out to make trouble.

SESAY: Yes, and we're getting some reaction now from the Trump campaign. This coming from Dan Scavino, Jr., a senior adviser, who tweeted this: "Watching thugs and punks in Albuquerque en route to California. They don't know what they're protesting."

VAUSE: We will continue with breaking news coverage here in just a moment. I'm John Vause.

SESAY: And I'm Isha Sesay; you are watching CNN.

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