Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Zoo Defends Shooting; White House on Lockdown; Third Party Candidate. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired May 30, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:15] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there, I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me on this Memorial Day. You will hear some inspirational stories as we honor those who have made the ultimate sacrifice and those who are serving right now.

But first, let's begin in Cincinnati here and the fallout following the killing of a beloved gorilla at the city zoo. This happened when the 450-pound primate held a three-year-old boy for a terrifying ten to 15 minutes Saturday. You can hear the people watching and screaming. Somehow this child managed to climb tough a barrier, fell into this exhibit. Horrified witnesses watched as the endangered silverback gorilla dragged this little boy around this enclosure. We'll play a little bit more of this video. And I want you to listen as the boy's mother is pleading with her child to stay calm.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mommy's right here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh my God!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ma'am, just calm down.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Isaiah (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody - OK, everybody back up. (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Mommy loves you. I'm right here.

(INAUDIBLE) my son fell in the zoo (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, he isn't. He's playing with him. He's sitting there. He's playing with - there you go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please protect him, God. Please protect him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Isaiah, be calm, be calm. Be calm. Be calm.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh my God!

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: Oh, you know, it's terrifying to watch. I can tell you that the zoo is set to hold a news conference next hour. We will take that live, hear more what the zoo is saying today.

But, right now, let's go to CNN's Jessica Schneider. She joins us live from Cincinnati.

And it's horrifying to listen to this mother telling her child to be calm as you're watching this whole thing play out. You're watching this gorilla. What is the zoo saying?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the zoo is saying, Brooke, they had no choice in this matter. They say that the danger was eminent to that three-year-old child and that they had to ask - they had - they had to act. They had the dangerous animal response team who moved in. They initially tried to lure the gorilla aside out of the exhibit, but that didn't work. So then after ten terrifying, intense minutes, they had to take action and they had to shoot and kill the gorilla.

Because of that, there have been a lot of emotions out here today. Sadness, confusion about how exactly this happened, and also anger about this. There's currently a petition that is circulating online. It's already garnered more than 100,000 signatures. People want those parents criminally prosecuted. The D.A.'s office and the police say that hasn't happened yet. We don't have any more details. But people here are angry. In fact, a vigil just wrapped up. And leading that vigil is someone joining me right now, Anthony Seta.

Anthony, you're a local animal rights activist.

ANTHONY SETA, ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Yes, ma'am.

SCHNEIDER: Harambe, the gorilla, not a person, but you said that there needs to be some recognition about what happened out here. Why did you have this vigil today?

SETA: I had this vigil because right now we have people arguing on both sides of whether it was the zoo's fault, was it - if it was the parent's fault. And between all the fighting, the person who's being forgotten is Harambe. And I do use the word person. What we define a person as varies I think, but how we look at it has to be the same. Is it our intelligence or is it our ability to feel and sense and be with others? Animals and gorillas can do that.

SCHNEIDER: So you're not - you're not taking sides here.

SETA: No.

SCHNEIDER: You're just saying, let's remember Harambe?

SETA: Yes, I am.

SCHNEIDER: Yes. Harambe, a 17-year-old gorilla. He'd been here at the zoo since about 2004. And, of course, his life was taken on Saturday when zoo officials say that they had no choice in order to keep that little three-year-old boy safe, they had to shoot and kill him, Brooke.

Back to you.

BALDWIN: Jessica, let me just - let me follow up quickly. Do we know how close the mother was to the child when the child somehow scooted over or under the fencing and into the mote? What does the video not show?

SCHNEIDER: Yes, here's what we know from the video and from some witness statements. They say that just a minute or two before this whole thing started happened, the little boy said to his mother, according to a witness, "mommy, mommy, I want to go in the water." And she said, "no, no, you've got to stay away, you've got to stay away." We don't know what transpired exactly between those words being spoken and him ending up in the mote. But what zoo officials have told us is that he somehow slipped underneath the rail, went through some protective wiring, through some bushes, climbed on to the mote wall and then dropped more than ten feet into the water below. So he got in there. It took some work, but zoo officials say that's how it happened.

[14:05:14] BALDWIN: And I understand this has never, ever, ever happened before. Jessica Schneider, thank you so much there in Cincinnati.

Let's broaden this out. Let's bring in Jeff Corwin, animal expert and host of ABC's "Ocean Mysteries." Jeff is with me. And defense attorney and former federal prosecutor Doug Burns is with me here as well.

So, welcome to both of you. What a story.

I mean, Jeff, to you. You know, we'll get to your reaction to what happened in the end, but my first thought was, you know, when you see this 450-pound gorilla and you see the gorilla, you know, dragging the child around as you do, what is the gorilla instinct? What was your read on the gorilla when you watched the video?

JEFF CORWIN, ANIMAL EXPERT: Well, I think - can I tell you my own response, and I think what I'm feeling is what many folks in the conservation community are feeling right now. It's sort of gut- wrenching and heartbreaking the know that this innocent creature, this incredibly endangered species, had to fall prey to such a terrible demise. It's hard to get in the mind of a gorilla. Yes, they're great apes. We share something in common with them. We're all primates. But to understand what it was thinking is a challenge.

I can tell you this. It's 400 pounds. It is exponentially stronger than myself and it could easily dispatch that child instantly if it had wanted to. But it didn't. Yet again, who's to know where this would have gone. We've seen examples, Brooke, in zoo environments where a child falls into an enclosure the gorilla actually is altruistic and rescues and cradles the child. We've seen the other side, too, where human beings and great apes have come together with catastrophic results.

So, what it was going to do exactly, we don't know. There was so many unknowns. I think these folks were at a desperate moment and took a desperate measure.

BALDWIN: Do you think they made the right call?

CORWIN: It's hard to say.

BALDWIN: Yes.

CORWIN: And to Monday morning quarterback this? I can tell you this. I've worked with the Cincinnati Zoo. They are one of the - the greatest conservation organizations on the planet. This is one of our country's most important urban zoos. Millions of school kids living in this inner city environment connect with nature through this zoo. They've actually brought back a species on the brink of extinction, the Sumatran Rhino.

These are great folks. I would find it hard to believe that they wouldn't employ every level of compassion and expertise to find an alternative. And who's to say what would have happened and how we would have reacted if something else had occurred.

BALDWIN: Yes. And that's the thing, you know, Doug and I were talking before the show started, and he said exactly -

CORWIN: I can't even say it (INAUDIBLE) think about it. So, yes.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes. And who - we would be having a very different conversation -

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Of course.

BALDWIN: If this ended any differently for this three-year-old.

BURNS: Well, you asked the key question and Jeff provided the key answer, so I was glad to hear it from him, which is that despite the immediate emotion of, oh my God, this beautiful animal, majestic animal was killed, and, of course, it's terrible, the reality is, we don't know what the gorilla may or may not have done in an instant. So, therefore, it's very hard, to repeat his term, Monday morning quarterback or second guessing.

BALDWIN: Right.

BURNS: It's hard to do that. So, legally speaking, from my perspective, a, you have some ostensible negligence on the part of the parents. However, who hasn't lost a three-year-old for 100 yards in their life? I have two sons. I've been in that situation. Not, obviously, in a zoo. But the point is - that's number one.

Number two, does the zoo have some legal responsibility? Theoretically, yes, in the sense that nobody should breach in. But, again, Brooke, you pointed out, no breach since 1978, since the zoo started. So it's really a fluke situation. So, again, working off of Jeff and you, I don't think you can second guess what they did.

BALDWIN: Just staying with you, Doug. We know the child went under a rail - BURNS: Yes.

BALDWIN: Through wires, over a moat wall, you know, dropped into this enclosure. The Cincinnati Police say that they are not aware of any intention to charge the mother or the parents at this time, but - but, you know, could they be held liable?

BURNS: Well, it's a very good question.

BALDWIN: Or the zoo. Either way.

BURNS: It's a good question you're asking. I mean, theoretically, I suppose at the outer, outer margins of some type of criminally negligent, supervision of a child, the answer to your question is, yes. However, from a practical standpoint, in my view, I was a prosecutor nine years, I don't see any real viability in charging them with a criminal offense.

BALDWIN: OK. OK.

Jeff, final question to you. Just knowing a little bit about elephants, for example, elephants are, you know, they have memories. They feel. They remember. You know, if something happens to a mother let's say in - I just knowing a little bit having been to Africa a couple of times and I'm just wondering, with gorillas, I know that there were other gorillas, right, in this - in this sort of area. Is this something that a gorilla, would they - just for animal lovers out there who are wondering, would - are the gorillas aware of what happened?

[14:10:08] CORWIN: Just like human beings, gorillas, which, you know, we belong to this elite group of mammals called the primates and we're great apes. And we do have memories and they have memories. And they have a great display of emotions. A kaleidoscope of reactions. And they can hold things in their memories. There are examples of people that have worked with gorillas that have returned the these areas from being a graduate student to a research and have had emotional reactions when they connect with these animals. We've learned that from Dian Fossey.

BALDWIN: Yes.

CORWIN: So, yes, there is a memory. But, here's the thing. That zoo very quickly separated all the other gorillas. And they'll be working with those animals.

But the last point I would make, Brooke, is this. You know, when we visit a place like a zoo, yes, you lose your kids, but you expect to find your kids, you know, under the clothing rack in Filene's Basement. You should be watching your kids in a zoological environment like this.

An here's the thing. When you go to these places, the zoo is not your babysitter. You have a responsibility. We have so many examples where people don't employ common sense in a national park, trying to take a picture next to a bison, a wild animal. Well, who gets sued? The National Park when things go awry. We've had - we've had examples, tragedies, where people have placed children on the edges of exhibits for that awesome selfie and the kids slip in and disaster occurs. We blame the zoos. Ultimately, there has to be some personal responsibility. You're there with your kids. Enjoy the moment. But you're responsible for your family and their actions.

BALDWIN: Jeff Corwin, glad we had your voice. And, Doug Burns, thank you so much as well.

BURNS: My pleasure.

BALDWIN: I appreciate it. It was tough to watch that video.

BURNS: My pleasure.

BALDWIN: No matter what.

And this reminder for you, off of what's happened here in Cincinnati, two conferences we're watching for. One from the zoo. And the other, actually, we will hear from the long-time caretaker of that gorilla. We'll bring that to you live.

Also ahead, in politics today, a prominent Republican who cannot stand this man. Cannot stand him. He suggested he found someone to run against him as an independent. And now Trump is going off. We'll have all of that for you ahead.

Also, breaking news out of Washington. The White House investigating a suspicious package. Crews on the scene. Stay here. You are watching CNN on this very special Memorial Day Monday.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:16:16] BALDWIN: We're back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Some breaking news here from the White House. The White House, I can tell you, is on lockdown right now. Let's go to senior Washington correspondent Joe Johns.

Joe Johns, you were just talking to me, what, a week ago about another situation at the White House.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

BALDWIN: And now this. What happened?

JOHNS: Well, we don't know all of what happened, quite frankly, but I can tell you that the White House is on lockdown right now. Around 12:00, 12:15 Eastern Time, they locked down the facility, told people to come off the lawn, into the White House. And then a series of steps occurred, including fire trucks, police officers and others staging outside the White House. At least one or two firefighters getting into exposure suits coming through the gates into the White House complex.

We did talk to a law enforcement source that told us that the Secret Service was dealing what they - with what they called a suspicious package. And there was a report that we received early on that suggested someone had thrown some type of a package or object over the fence.

So, apparently that is what they're dealing with. And it's quite clear that right now they're dealing with an abundance of caution. Two individuals at least in partial exposure suits coming on to the complex apparently to check something out. We don't know the seriousness of this, but what we do know is that this is Memorial Day, it's a day of heightened precaution by first responders in Washington, D.C., always on the alert for something unusual happening.

Brooke, back to you.

BALDWIN: Joe Johns, we know you will keep us posted there. Thank you so much on the status of the White House on this Memorial Day. Thank you so much.

Coming up next, are the never Trump folks getting ready to introduce a third party candidate? Most of the - one of the most outspoken critics suggest one independent is ready to come out at some point by the end of this holiday weekend and now Donald Trump is responding to that.

Also ahead, she wanted to wear a hijab as a cadet at the Citadel in South Carolina. When the university said no, she went another route. We'll talk to this young woman, live, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:23:06] BALDWIN: On this day to honor our fallen heroes, Democratic frontrunner Hillary Clinton walked in her hometown's Memorial Day parade. She - there they are. She and - I should mention her husband, former President Bill Clinton, joined her in today's event in Chappaqua, New York.

And as the race for the White House draws near, some other names just might be added to the ballot here. Take a look at this tweet. Much ado about this tweet here from Bill Kristol, the editor of the conservative magazine, "The Weekly Standard." He tweeted, "just a heads up over this holiday weekend. There will be an independent candidate, an impressive one, with a strong team and a real chance."

Now, within hours of Bill Kristol's tweet, we have Trump going on the counter attack, writing, "if dummy Bill Kristol actually does get a spoiler to run as an independent, say good-bye to the Supreme Court" and more and more and more he goes a-Twitter.

Much to discuss with my panel. Here with me now, CNN political commentator Jeffrey Lord. He's also a former political director during the Reagan administration, supporting now Mr. Trump. Capri Cafaro is a Democratic state senator from Ohio, And Evan Siegfried is a Republican strategist who says he will vote for Hillary Clinton. Perhaps asterisk there depending on who this potential person would be.

So, welcome to all of you.

And let me just turn straight to you.

Listen, we don't know who this person could be. This person may not even exist. We're all waiting with baited breath. But how happy are you right now, as you were the person who wrote that choosing between Trump and Clinton was like choosing between cyanide and arsenic.

EVAN SIEGFRIED, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes, I'm excited because it gives me a third option. If there is a viable alternative third party candidate, that means I can vote to make America sane again.

BALDWIN: Make America sane.

SIEGFRIED: And, you know, we've seen in Donald Trump's response to Bill Kristol last night, he was saying the Republicans, "they," and it was constantly "they," never "we." He's still not identifying as a Republican. And that's something that troubles me even - almost as much as his judgment and temperament. So it's worrisome.

BALDWIN: Jeffrey Lord, do you think Bill Kristol might be bluffing? What do you make of all this?

[14:25:06] JEFFREY LORD, FORMER REAGAN WHITE HOUSE POLITICAL DIRECTOR: It's hard to say. I know Bill. He's doing his thing here. But I have to say, if he - if he does have somebody, this person would be committing what I - what I have begun to call Romney-cide. George Romney, Mitt Romney's father, refused to support Barry Goldwater in 1964 and his once promising career in national politics vanished after that. He ran for president, did badly against Richard Nixon. Wound up at the Department of Housing and Urban Development and left that and was never heard from again. I think a lot of it's stemming from the fact that he just refused to support Barry Goldwater, which Ronald Reagan went out of his way to do, was a private citizen, and, of course, that eventually made him president. So I think this is a serious mistake for whoever is doing this and if they want to hand over the Supreme Court to a bunch of liberals, then, you know, have at it.

BALDWIN: Capri, I promise I'm coming to you and I want to stay with our Republicans here.

CAPRI CAFARO (D), OHIO SENATE MINORITY LEADER: No problem.

BALDWIN: Evan, I want you to respond to the Romney-cide comment and also names being floated. I've seen Stanley McCrystal, Mitt Romney, we know Ben Sasse has been - as someone who's been suggested, although he's saying thanks but no thanks.

SIEGFRIED: First of all, this is ridiculous, this Romney-cide thing. George Romney did go on to have a wonderful and productive career, and Mitt Romney followed suit. And Mitt Romney has been an unsuccessful successful presidential candidate. So what you've actually seen is people like Newt Gingrich who are coming out and saying, you should toe the party line. But Newt Gingrich forgets his own personal history. In 1990 he bucked his president and his minority leader in Bob Michael (ph) and said, I'm going to stick to my principles. And that, arguably, helped win Bob Michael the House minority leader. LORD: He supported George Bush in 1992, Evan.

SIEGFRIED: I'm sorry?

BALDWIN: He supported Bush in '92.

LORD: He supported George Bush in 1992.

SIEGFRIED: Yes, but he - he bucked his president when his president said, I need your help. And he led a revolt which destroyed him.

LORD: He didn't (INAUDIBLE).

SIEGFRIED: So - excuse me. It would have been politically inconvenient for Newt Gingrich to stick with Bob Michael and the president - or to not stick with the president. And he stuck by his principles. But - and he became House speaker.

BALDWIN: So, hold - OK. Who -

CAFARO: Well, I mean, I'm going to just jump in.

BALDWIN: Please do. Please do. Go ahead.

CAFARO: I'm just going to do it. Well, thanks.

I mean I think that guys like Bill Kristol, anyone who is really a true conservative is going to continue to feel that the Republican Party is being hijacked by Donald Trump and, you know, the American public, in some sense of the world. So a guy like Bill Kristol, you know, he is going to not stop until he finds someone. Now, the question that I have about this mystery candidate is, you know, what kind of infrastructure do they have? It's one thing to go out there and be a spoiler. It's another thing to get on the ballot. And, I mean, so there are two separate things. Coming out and saying you're a candidate for president of the United States is one thing. Actually putting the rubber where, you know, on the road is a whole different thing. You've got to get on the ballot in order for people to really vote for you.

BALDWIN: Do you think - how possible is it - this is really to anyone, but we're just about into June. To be able to, you know, run a formidable race as this, you know, sort of sleeper candidate popping out of nowhere, how possible is that?

LORD: Not very.

CAFARO: (INAUDIBLE).

LORD: You know, the best attempt was ever made was by Theodore Roosevelt, who was a very popular former president in the day. He couldn't manage to do the deal either. So I think whoever this might be is just not going to, you know, get that far.

SIEGFRIED: I take a different view. I think it's actually a very noble endeavor on the part of this person. They know it's most likely a suicide mission, but it will energize the conservative base, which is depressed, to get them to turn out and help save vulnerable House Republicans and Senate leaders.

Donald Trump isn't uniting the party. He's attacking a very popular governor. And when you look at it, you can actually - the only way that this person who - if they do exist could win the presidency is by denying both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton 270 electoral votes and then taking it to the House. That's where it would go.

CAFARO: Right, and then we're going to end up in a - in a 269/269 with only - with one down on the Supreme Court. I mean talk about a nightmare scenario.

LORD: You know, all I can say here -

BALDWIN: What do we say to is that?

CAFARO: Just saying. Just saying. I mean any of us who lived through Bush vs. Gore and understand -

BALDWIN: Wow.

CAFARO: The impact of a third party candidate. So if you're going to deny either of them having, you know, the - enough - enough electoral votes to secure the presidency, we may be facing a Bush-Gore situation 16 years later with not enough people on the Supreme Court to make that decision.

BALDWIN: Just when we thought this whole thing couldn't get more unprecedented enough.

LORD: That would keep us busy over Christmas.

BALDWIN: Jeffrey, quickly, what was that?

LORD: I said, that would keep us busy over Christmas.

BALDWIN: Ah, yes. I think a lot of people are looking forward to actually having time off in December. But to be determined! Evan Siegfried, Jeffrey Lord and Capri Cafaro, thank you all so much.

LORD: Thanks, Brooke.

CAFARO: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Oh, my goodness, my goodness.

Coming up here, minutes from now, just a heads up, we all are expecting these two different news conferences, both in connection just with this horrible story out of Cincinnati at a zoo there. We'll bring that to you live. The latest from what zoo officials are saying. And the individual apparently who raised this - help raise this gorilla many years ago.

[14:30:05] Also ahead, a Muslim student at odds with the top military school. This was her number one choice when she applied over her special religious accommodation request