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Boxing Legend Dead at 74; Funeral, Procession Through Louisville Set For Friday; Remembering Life and Legacy of Boxing Legend; Athletes Pay Tribute to Muhammad Ali; Ali's Hometown Pays Honor to "The Greatest"; Larry Holmes Talks Friend Ali; Rev. Jesse Jackson Talks Muhammad Ali. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired June 04, 2016 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:59:54] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello everyone, I'm Jim Sciutto in this week for Poppy Harlow.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm John Berman live outside the Muhammad Ali Center in Louisville, Kentucky. This is the hometown of boxing great Muhammad Ali. You can see people coming out here still. They've been here all day. They came out here in the wee hours of the morning, they've been leaving flowers, they've been writing notes. Right now, they're even playing music here outside the center. Their own personal memories and connections to the boxing great. So many people here can tell you exactly about the first time they met Muhammad Ali, and so many of them in the city did.

We have new details about the final hours of Muhammad Ali's life and also about the plan for the coming days. Thursday of this coming week, there will be a private family service that will be here in Louisville. Muhammad Ali's body will return to the city within the next 24 to 48 hours. On Friday, there will be a public ceremony, in fact an entire day of celebration. Will begin with a procession through the city here right past the Muhammad Ali Center here through the streets near his home, near the street named after him.

It will also be streamed on line for anyone who can't see it. And then there will be a public memorial. Eulogized Muhammad Ali will be by former President Bill Clinton as well as sportscaster Bryant Gumbel and Billy Crystal, who actually did a great Muhammad Ali imitation and got to know him through the years, as well. We also learned some new details about the final week of Muhammad Ali's life. A short time ago, a spokesman for the family said he was surrounded at the end by loved ones.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB GUNNELL, ALI FAMILY SPOKESMAN: They got to spend quality time with him to say their final good-byes. And it was a very solemn moment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Solemn but important for that family. You can tell, a family that had to share Muhammad Ali for so many years with the world. CNN's Jason Carroll is live in Scottsdale, Arizona. That is where

Muhammad Ali lived for the last several years and where he died overnight. Jason, give us a sense of what we learned about what's coming up this week and also about this past week.

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, let's just go over just the past week. What happened was on Monday, the family checked Muhammad Ali into hospital. He was suffering from respiratory issues. They thought like many times in the past John that he would pull through. He initially was in fair condition on Monday. But that would not be the case. Within the past 24 to 48 hours it became very clear that this was going to be a very great situation.

And he was not going to pull through this time. And so, they brought the family members in. They were able to spend final moments with Muhammad Ali. That was certainly important to all of his children who came here to Phoenix. Also just a little earlier today, we got some more details about the funeral, the celebration at what they're calling it, which will take place next week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUNNELL: Rather large funeral procession will take Muhammad through the streets of Louisville to allow anyone that's there from the world to say good-bye, to celebrate the life with him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARROLL: And as you were saying, that motorcade will go right past where you are. Eventually Muhammad Ali will be laid to rest at Cahill Cemetery there in Louisville. Not only will Bill Clinton be the one delivering the eulogy. But in addition to that, Bryant Gumbel will be on hand, Billy Crystal will be on hand, as well. You know, we're talking a little bit about some of those final moments, the final moments that family members were able to spend with Muhammad Ali. His daughter Hannah weighed in on a very special moment. She said, all of his organs had failed, but his heart just would not stop beating.

For 30 minutes, his heart just kept beating. No one had ever seen anything like it. A true testament to the strength of his spirit and his will. Also, Miriam Ali, his daughter, a woman who I've known for many, many years, we have talked about her father many times. In fact, talked about his death. At one point, she said, look, this is a man, you know, I shared with the world growing up. I know even when he passes, even though I want there to be a private time with my family, I know even then I'm going to have to share him with the world. She e-mailed me this morning. She said, Jason, I am happy my father no longer struggles. He is in a better place. God is the greatest -- John.

BERMAN: So nice for that family that they were able to spend those last hours with Muhammad Ali. Nice also they will have a private service here on Thursday before the very public memorial.

Jason Carroll, terrific work out there in Scottsdale, Arizona, thanks so much. BERMAN: So many people look at Muhammad Ali considering him the

greatest boxer of all time. Some say the greatest athlete of all time. I was talking to NBA all-star Steve Smith. He said that without hesitation. But for one young girl growing up in Kentucky, he was just a family friend who taught her card tricks at the kitchen table. That young girl is now CNN's own intrepid reporter.

Chief Justice Correspondent Pamela Brown. Her father, former governor of Kentucky, John Brown, was friends with Muhammad Ali. Both Pamela and her father now join me now by phone. I can see the governor right there in person.

Pamela, we were looking at pictures of you with Muhammad Ali right now. When you're playing with Muhammad Ali as a child, when you're learning card tricks from Muhammad Ali, are you aware that he is the greatest of all time? As he said? Or as he just, you know, a guy you're having fun with there?

[17:05:34] PAMELA BROWN, CNN CHIEF JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (on the phone): Well, John, it's pretty surreal. And I hear at this time it was pretty special that Muhammad Ali was showing me his card tricks. I don't think I understood the full magnitude of it and the impact that this man had really on the world. But I think it just goes to show that he was so humble. And in those private moments when he was our houseguest, he liked to sit around the table with me for hours and allow me to show him my card tricks, which were pretty terrible.

And you know, he would show me his tricks. And he I think loved children. And so I think we shared a special bond. I noticed that he would gravitate toward me when we were in a group, and that he would whisper funny things in my ear. We had this amazing -- he had this amazing man of few words even though he was a man of few words given his Parkinson's. He had this profound impact and his sense of humor and his spirit and love of life shine through. And I have to say he was such a showman.

Because when we would go out in public, perhaps to a restaurant or the derby, he would love to put on a show for the crowd. And I remember one of his favored move to make it look like he was floating and of course as a little girl, I thought he was actually floating like a butterfly. And, you know, he loved to get the crowd riled up and laughing and smiling. He really thrived off of that. But he just was an incredible man. One of a kind. And again, just a rare look back at those pictures that I was sitting around the kitchen table with him. And I thank my dad for giving me that opportunity.

BERMAN: I look at these pictures, too, Pamela and I shake my head. It's just extraordinary. Even as he was losing the power to speak as clearly, he would do whatever he could. Pull out all the stops, all the tricks quite literally to make anyone smile. You get the sense that was his goal. And, you know, and Governor, I've been speaking to so many people here in Louisville and everyone it seems in the city has a personal memory of Muhammad Ali. Of the time he came to their junior high. Of watching him win the gold medal with their father in a basement. It seems in a state, you know, which you know and love so much, there is a deep personal bond with this legend. JOHN YOUNG BROWN, JR., FRIEND OF MUHAMMAD ALI (on the phone): But

there's no question about it, John. I enjoyed your interview with our Louisville Mayor Greg Fischer. And I think he said it best about what Ali's legacy is, has become a legacy for Louisville. In fact, Louisville was named the number one city in the nation as I understand last year for compassion in your community. And Ali's center -- and I was involved in the very early days, has allowed his legacy to live on for generations. Ali is not only a loved person, a legend in Kentucky and in the United States, but even more so around the world.

I think he's an icon like Mandela. I've traveled with him in the international world on occasions and went to all of his fights. After I met him after the foreman fight. And he's something special for the world to learn from and to follow so much of his instinct, his love and compassion with one another. He was a very humble man. I never remember in all of the 33 years of knowing him after inviting him to Louisville after he won the foreman fight, he came for a basketball game. My wife and I owned the Kentucky Kernels.

And we were playing Dr. J and there were about 20,000 people. And that was -- his introduction back to Louisville, and Louisville has embraced him and made him a major parts of our identity. So, he's just special. He's so normal and easy to be with. And we all heard all the legends about him. And I remember back when he talked about black is beautiful and love and -- your ancestry. And, you know, he just changed the complexion of the world, to be proud of yourself, and who you are and what you stand for.

BERMAN: You know, you knew obviously all these things that he had done. You knew at that time, for instance, that he was a two-time world champion, that he sat out 3.5 years. The big risks he took. So, given all that, given that you knew his place in history already then, what was it like to see him doing card tricks with your daughter at the kitchen table?

J. BROWN: Well, you know, he was an entertainer. And he loved to entertain. And even after his illness, you know, he would still have his magic tricks and -- he's a showman of the first order. And I have a couple of incidents I don't think anyone knows about. Interesting. I went to the Ali home for the fight. And that's twenty minutes before fight, I walked over to his trailer. That was just next to the arena. And knocks on the door and walked in. There he was lying in bed watching a cowboy movie in a black and white TV.

[17:10:33] And he was a man that, you know, took life as it came. He was excited about world events. And he took it pretty much casual. I guess he'd been through so many fights. But I remember one thing distinctly the next morning, a friend of mine, John Jay Hooker, who ran for governor of Tennessee, went to see him after he lost the fight. He kneeled down by the bed where Ali was sitting, and he had that tear coming down his eyes and Ali -- and wiped his tear away. He said, John Jay don't cry, remember, I'm still Muhammad Ali. So, that pretty much tells what the man is made of.

BERMAN: Indeed it does. And again, Pamela, we're looking at these pictures right now, these extraordinary pictures of you as a child with -- (AUDIO GAP).

SCIUTTO: Hi, we're just having some technical difficulties with the feed from Louisville, Kentucky, where John Berman is outside the Muhammad Ali Center there. President Obama just released an emotional statement about Ali's passing. He said, quote, "Muhammad Ali was the greatest, period. If just asked him, he'd tell you. He'd tell you that he was the double greatest. That he'd handcuff lightning, thrown thunder into jail.

But what made The Champ the greatest is that everyone else could tell you pretty much the same thing. In my private study just off the Oval Office, I keep a pair of his gloves on display. I am America, he once declared. I am the part you won't recognize. You get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."

Very powerful president from -- from the President. Also I want to thank Governor Brown and our own Pamela Brown for recounting their own personal remembrances of him. They're lucky. I met him once, but I'm jealous of having that relationship. We'll have more live coverage ahead. Somber remembrances today as fans mourn the loss of the greatest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:16:00] MUHAMMAD ALI, PROFESSIONAL BOXER: I'm going to beat this man so easy. Surreal. I'm going punch this man and jab him and dance, and tie him up and move him and stick him and bop him. And he's going to be bruised. If I don't knock him out, the referee will just come and say, stop it, stop it, terrible beating, no contest. He knows that I'm going to tear him up. He knows I'm going to eat his nose up. I'm just going to feed him like he's hungry and missed his lunch. And I'm going to put my foot right down and say on this rock I built my church.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Well, you were hearing some vintage sound there from the man himself Muhammad Ali talking about one of his legendary boxing matches. The "Rumble in the Jungle" which took place back in the 1960s. It was one of the greatest fight of Muhammad Ali's life. Perhaps one of the greatest sporting events of the 20th Century. The rumble in the jungle saw the 32-year-old at the time contender, Muhammad Ali square off against a nearly decade younger and undefeated world heavyweight championship, George Foreman. You see him there back when he had hair. Ali was not favored to win. Some even said he was already washed up. But Ali was defiant, as you'd expect, spewing his famous and at times poetic trash talk on the eve right before that fight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALI: Meet the big, strong bully that knocks everybody out, that everybody's afraid of, England can't produce nothing to beat George Foreman. Africa can't produce nothing to beat George Foreman. Japan, China, no country, but all Muhammad Ali. (END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: As CNN's David McKenzie reports, Ali did not just win back his title there in the rumble in the jungle, but he also won over the hearts of the American people.

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Celebrities, politicians, and ordinary Africans from across the continent are sending in their tributes to the great Muhammad Ali today. Muhammad Ali shares a deep connection to Africa steaming back to 1974 and the rumble in the jungle, considered by many as one of the greatest sporting events of all time. Where Muhammad Ali fought George Foreman in Kinshasa in the early morning hours in front of 60,000 delirious Congolese fans and a worldwide audience.

Ali beat Foreman, beating all expectations and cementing his reputation as a great champion. Ali also had a personal connection to another heavyweight great Nelson Mandela. The two shared a light sparring session together. Mandela said that Ali was a hero of his both because of his exploits in the boxing ring and because of his moral conviction throughout his career. And that's a sentiment shared by many Africans today as they mourn the loss of Muhammad Ali and celebrate his life. Back to you.

SCIUTTO: Well, Muhammad Ali's opponent in that fight was of course George Foreman.

Earlier, Fredricka Whitfield spoke with Foreman who shared his very first memory meeting the greatest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE FOREMAN, FACED MUHAMMAD ALI IN "THE RUMBLE IN THE JUNGLE": I went to Africa. I had beaten Joe Frazier easily, the people who had beaten Muhammad Ali. So, I thought this would be the easiest $5,000 I was going to picked up. Got into the ring with Muhammad. Beating up for first three rounds. He hit me a few times. But then after a whole, I just knew I was going to knock him out. I hit him hard in the third round. And he looked as if to say, I'm not going to take this. And then he said no way. He was going to slug it out with me. And I whaled on him.

And the bell rang, and he looked at me as if to say, I made it. And I thought, oh, my God, he made. And I knew I was in trouble then. The water had just gotten deep. And then about the sixth, seventh round, he started whispering, that all you got, George? And believe me, that's scary because that was all I had. He hit me with a quick one- two. Knocked me down to the canvas. And my whole life changed. I was devastated. Little did I know I would make the best friend I ever had in my life. That fight made it that way.

I was trying to court a girl and I invited her to have dinner with me. And I told her that I was going to be a boxer. She said, really? I've seen Muhammad Ali on the -- and he would just stand, I'm beautiful, look at me. You know what? I never dated that girl again I got so upset. I met him myself down the street in New York City, he was walking down the street with just a pair of slacks on, and I said, man, he is beautiful. So after you get out of the ring with him and look at him, everybody falls in love with him. You can't help it. It was one lovable, good looking, great guy.

And you wanted to be around him. I was excited to meet him and happy to be his friend. There are so many people, the realization that there were so many people who truly loved Muhammad Ali. A lot of times people say he's got a lot of hangers on in boxers. But this man truly was loved. I know for a fact. He was loved, and I'm happy that there will be something there for people to come in and feel like they were part of his life and of course, be at the service and be around Louisville, Kentucky, where it all started. What a man. The greatest show on earth. He was the greatest show.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[17:21:38] SCIUTTO: The greatest show on earth. That was George Foreman speaking earlier today with our Fredricka Whitfield.

Now, some of us had the immense pleasure, really the honor of meeting Muhammad Ali. I very luckily had that chance, just once, it was five years ago. It was here in Washington at the National Press Club. That's me shaking his hand there. He was frail, no question. But just the measure of impact that he had, he was there at the National Press Club in Washington, appealing for the release of two Americans who were at the time held in Iran. You might remember them, they were hikers -- among three hikers who were captured along the Iran/Iraq border, held there for a number of months.

And he lent his very powerful public voice to their cause calling on Iran, fellow Muslims in Iran, for Muhammad Ali, as well, to release them. Of course, they were released. We were able to see the happy ending to that story. Just one of the many causes that he lent his name and the force of his personality. His impact, his power, too, over the course of the years. And there were many more, the Vietnam war, the civil rights movement. He was truly someone who had an influence not just in the ring but very much out of the ring as well.

And just to, how do you measure Muhammad Ali's impact on the civil rights movement in America?

Coming up, we'll going to ask renowned civil rights leader and also personal friend of Ali the Reverend Jesse Jackson. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[17:27:07] ALI: This helped promote my fights, the boasting, the talking, I'm the greatest. Showing confidence is something most people want to express and really don't know how. They're frightful. Some people envy you for doing it and some admire you for it. So, whatever reason they came. Then we had all type of problems and draft and religion. And all this helped draw people. I wrote something once that more clearly explains what I'm talking about. It says, the man who has no imagination stands on the earth. He has no wings. He cannot fly. So having an imagination, you have to have an imagination. The Wright Brothers had an imagination, Columbus had an imagination, the men who went to the moon had an imagination. And I used my reputation to publicize things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Muhammad Ali, the greatest that ever was once wrote that he wanted to be remembered as, quote, "A man who won the heavyweight title three times, who was humorous and who treated everyone right." As a man who never looked down on those who looked up to him, and who helped as many people as he could. As a man who stood up for his beliefs no matter what. As a man who tried to unite all humankind through faith and love." Those are big words. That was a big cause, no question. And I think as the world reacts to his death, we're seeing that people are remembering Ali exactly as he wanted in those words, especially some of his fellow athletes.

I want to bring back CNN's sports Andy Scholes. Andy, you've been hard pressed to find someone in the sports world who was not been inspired in some way by Muhammad Ali.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS: Yes. That's right. Ali was a hero to so many athletes. Many of them taking to social media throughout the day to give thoughts and prayers to the family. And just moments ago in Oakland, the Cavs and Warriors spoke with the media. And LeBron James and Steph Curry were asked about what Ali meant to them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEBRON JAMES, CAVALIERS FORWARD: For an athlete like myself today, without Muhammad Ali, I wouldn't be sitting here and talking in front of you guys. Wouldn't be able to walk in restaurants. Wouldn't be able to go anywhere were Black weren't allowed back in those days because of guys like Muhammad Ali.

STEPH CURRY, WARRIORS GUARD: Ali was the example of how you use your platform and speaks what you believe no matter what people are saying. He gives, you know, look at him as a sense of confidence in that regard for sure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHOLES: And probably the only athlete in the world that comes close to Ali's fame is Michael Jordan. He released a statement earlier today saying, "This is a sad day for me and for the world. Muhammad Ali was bigger than sports and larger than life. He said he was the greatest, and he was right." Now, Serena Williams, fresh off losing in the women's final at the French open posted this to Instagram, "The true greatest of all time. What a sad day for everyone to lose someone so great and kind. And someone who really stood up for what they believed in. He was my hero. He always will be."

Former heavy weight champion, Mike Tyson, he posted simply, "God came for his champion. So long, great one. #thegreatest." Now, Jim, I only got to see Ali in person once during my lifetime. I

was too young to see him fight in the ring. But I saw him at the 2004 Major League Baseball all-star game in Houston. He brought out the baseballs to be used for the ceremonial first pitch. It was an amazing moment. Ali started throwing punches and undercuts. It was cool. The crowd on their feet, taking pictures. All of the players on the field. A-Rod, Jeter, Big Papi, they came around, wanted to be close to Ali. Get as close as they could, get a picture with him. This is one of many examples of how even superstar athletes, they were even in awe in the presence of Ali.

SCIUTTO: You know, I have to say that before Ali came, it was unusual for athletes, black or white, to have such a public voice as he did. It's something as you think of athletes, and we are used to asking them big-picture questions, whether about race or politics, et cetera. That was one more way that he was a trailblazer, wasn't it?

SCHOLES: Absolutely. Ali, he spoke his mind. Whenever he was asked a question, he didn't shy away. That made him special. He's considered by many in many publications as the king of trash talk. He was really the originator in that instance. And he was basically a walking quote. You know, he gave so many things, you know, floats like a butterfly, sting like a bee. You know, many athletes to this day post quotes about him all the time. Just earlier today, Lindsay Vaughn posted a quote, "Hate every minute of training, but I said, don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion."

Those are quotes that many people still live by. That's another way that Mohammad Ali will live on forever.

SCIUTTO: Don't count the days, make the days count, right?

(CROSSTALK)

SCHOLES: Absolutely.

SCIUTTO: We could all live by those words.

Andy Scholes, thanks very much.

SCHOLES: All right.

SCIUTTO: Coming up, we'll ask renowned civil rights leader and personal friend of Ali, the Reverend Jesse Jackson, what Ali meant to him. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:35:21] SCIUTTO: The world is mourning the loss not just of a boxing legend but a man known as a global humanitarian. Perhaps nowhere is that sentiment being felt more than in Muhammad Ali's hometown of Louisville, Kentucky, where people are stopping to remember their hometown hero. At a memorial this morning, a flag at half staff in honor of the late three-time heavyweight champion.

Our Martin Savidge joins from outside the Muhammad Ali Cultural Center, built to the man known as "The Greatest," a tribute to his accomplishments outside the ring as well as inside the ring.

I wonder if you could describe the mood now.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We just had a really powerful line of thunderstorms come through. Even despite that, outside with this makeshift memorial, people were grabbing balloons, grabbing all those precious items and rushing them to safety. Now they've started to return. They have a small ornamental lake.

People were drawn here for a couple of reasons. They were drawn because they need a natural place to grieve and remember. This facility serves for that. And then they needed to recall a life. If you've never been inside, the facility does that so well with the life of Mohammad Ali. It reminds you of what an expansive life he had.

And the director, we talked to him earlier today. Here's what he had to say about hometown and sharing Muhammad Ali with the world.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD LASSERE, PRESIDENT & CEO, MUHAMMAD ALI CULTURAL CENTER: The city has lost a native son. It's lost a real hero, and it's lost a world hero. The good thing about the city is that it always gravitated to Muhammad when he came to town. And we have the Muhammad Ali Center here in Louisville, Kentucky. Muhammad shows chose -- chose to build his legacy in his hometown. While the city mourns, they will always be able to come to the Muhammad Ali Center and commiserate with Muhammad going forward until the end of time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Everybody here has a story. People can remember, personally, in this town, often running into Muhammad Ali. They often would see him here at the center. Other people can just talk about the influence he's had on his life. And everybody is sharing stories. You don't have to prompt people. They come to you. They want to share the experience. They want to be here. They want to remember. Yes, it's mourning, but it's also remembering just a remarkable life -- Jim?

SCIUTTO: Little rainstorm's not going to chase those people away.

Martin Savidge, Thank you very much.

Muhammad Ali said he was "The Greatest." Many in the sport world certainly agree. Next, I'll be joined by the late legend's old sparring partner, best friend, and one of the only people to ever defeat him in the ring.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:41:55] SCIUTTO: Former heavyweight champion, Larry Holmes, was trained by Muhammad Ali, and mentored by him. He's also one of the only five people to have ever defeated Ali in the ring. Larry Holmes, a legend himself, joining me now.

Mr. Holmes, thanks for taking the time.

LARRY HOLMES, FORMER HEAVYWEIGHT BOXING CHAMPION (voice-over): A pleasure to be here.

SCIUTTO: I want to ask you, because Ali's fight against you was his second to last. As you well know, he came out of retirement to face you. He lost that fight. One of his coaches said it's the only time he's ever heard Ali scream in pain. How difficult was that for you fighting one of your best friends and mentors at a time when he was probably not at his best?

HOLMES: Well, it's something that didn't want to do. And if they didn't pay Ali that kind of money that he got, I probably wouldn't have done it because Ali got the majority of the money, and I knew that he was in need of the $10 million. You know what, I got $3.5 million, and that's more money than I ever seen in my life. So you take it and -- I didn't want to hurt Ali. Didn't want to hurt him, but I kept telling him, don't take no more punches. Don't take no more. Don't take no more. He didn't want to hear it. He called me names every time I turn around. He called me names and kind of made me mad a little. I hit him and hit him. But then if he wouldn't have what am I doing, what am I doing?

SCIUTTO: In the interviews after the fight, you were very emotional. You were seen crying, as well. It clearly had an effect on you. Did you regret fighting him like that?

HOLMES: Yeah. I regret it because I knew what he could do and couldn't do. I was his sparring partner for four years. I knew exactly what he could do. I went into the dressing room after the fight, and I said, man, you know I love, I don't want to fight you, you know I love you. He got me out of it. He said, why you beat me up then? He was still Muhammad Ali, the guy that we know that I learned to love over the years.

SCIUTTO: It must have difficult because he was one of your teachers, to watch him decline, to watch him decline through the years.

HOLMES: Right.

SCIUTTO: How hard was that?

HOLMES: I tell you the truth, I told him about it. But he didn't want to hear nothing. Told me to shut up, that he's the boss. That's what I did. I know that he was declining, and I asked him why he did the things that he did. He told me I had no right to ask what he do. He was wrong. He was paying me, I wasn't paying him. He told me like it was, shut up or get out. You know what I did, I shut up because I wanted to be around him.

(CROSSTALK)

HOLMES: He was one great guy. Listen, I've seen people do things that a lot of fighters do that they didn't do back then. They don't want to give an autograph. They don't want to take no picture. They want to stay in their own little corner and not give the wealth that people give him. I think if people want an autograph, give them an autograph. If they want a picture, take a picture. Ali did that. He never said no to nobody. Maybe that's what happened, that went wrong with him.

[17:45:30] SCIUTTO: We're seeing pictures now of the physical effects of the Parkinson's on him. Do you think that there's something fundamentally wrong with boxing, in light of the effects on the brain, on the body, is there something fundamentally wrong with it, or do you think it can be fixed over time, that those issues can be overcome by the sport itself?

HOLMES: You know, I think if they go out and fight, I think that would help him. I think the headgear would take the blow, like the protection of the cup, take the blow from getting hit there. So you know, I think it's something that can be done, but they're not going to do that. It's not like going to the five and dime and buying gloves and put it on and go and hit somebody. You break their jaw, break their head. And for fighting over a period of time, you get hit a lot. They go 60, 70 punches a round. If they get hit with 20 punches a round, at the end of the day you're going 200 punches upside the head, and you can be hurt. Fighters don't understand that, and they can't take the punches that they think they can take.

SCIUTTO: Goodness.

Larry Holmes, thanks for sharing us your Ali. We know this is an emotional day a real tie with him, that you had real time with him. Thank you very much.

HOLMES: Yeah. Hey, man, thanks for having me on the show. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next, we will ask the renowned civil rights leader and personal friend of Ali, the Reverend Jesse Jackson, what Ali meant to him and to us. Please stay with us.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just would turn a trick wherever as long as I could get one more hit.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can remember thinking that I'm going to die out here.

STEVENS: When I was a small child, I experienced sexual molestation for years. It gave me a lot of compassion. Those scars are deep, but it doesn't have to be the end of the story.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[17:52:01] SCIUTTO: Muhammad Ali may have shot to fame as the greatest boxer of all time but the lasting legacy likely took place outside of the ring. Ali's work as a civil rights activist is how his family wants him to be remembered.

Joining me now, renowned civil rights leader himself, the Reverend Jesse Jackson.

Reverend Jackson, thank you for joining us.

Describe to the audience what Ali's legacy is outside of the ring?

REV. JESSE JACKSON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST (voice-over): Well, it is the success inside of the ring that made it able for him to leverage that light inside of the ring in the he engaged in. And let us not forget the year he won the Olympics in 1960, from Virginia around to Texas, he could not use a single public toilet, a library. People were very insulted by that. What the civil rights was all about was tearing down those racism apartheid barrier. During that season black voters stepped -- (INAUDIBLE) -- American military bases. Black people had to pay taxes without the right to vote. He was a sensitive man who fought to change those conditions and, indeed, he helped to change those conditions. And his leverage and his visibility was a big asset.

SCIUTTO: Is that legacy still alive today in your view?

JACKSON: Well, it is very much alive. The circle continues in so many ways. I think about the -- you know, it is different, and hard to imagine the limitations of apartheid, and you could not have had the big Clemson/Alabama game behind the cotton curtain. You couldn't have had tire production in South Carolina behind the cotton curtain.

And all of America has changed in so many ways. But Ali, he took the risk. You see when he gave up his wealth and his popularity in saying his principle, that made him a very different kind of guy. Some people went to a demonstration back in the day, but very few people gave up what he gave up. He gave up his life. Ali gave up -- and few gave up their whole career, willing to suspend their whole career on the principle. And the U.S. government tried to destroy him and discredit him and undermined him, and yet, he, with the face of the threat of jail, and no abilities to work, he stood tall. And that just gained him strength all over to the world.

SCIUTTO: Do you think that he needed that brashness, that voice, that pride to break through really all that he was fighting against in the 1960s in the civil rights movement, the discrimination, et cetera?

[17:54:50] JACKSON: Sometimes athletes and entertainers have unusual platform, and seldom use them to the end of social justice. But when Dr. King was in jail of Birmingham, many artists hoped that he would get free, but had a difficult time raising money to get him free. Ali, at the risk of losing all, he took that risk. Ali, at the risk of losing -- Ali became virtually a pauper. And he went around the colleges making speeches just to make a little thousand dollars here or a thousand dollars there, from being a millionaire.

But he had the sense of dignity over the dollars that made him that risk. And from that crucifixion came a kind of resurrection. And then he went to another level to take on the war on principle. And that was a hard decision of our time. I are remember in April 4th, 1967, the room with Dr. King and the young Bernard Lee and Jim Brown, and Ali walked into the room and we chatted for a few minutes, and then he stayed the rest of the day talking about the anti-war movement.

And Dr. King spoke at the Riverside Church that night. He was integrally involved in the process of ending the war, of stopping the Muslim bashing that we see is happening again today, of the blacks and whites learning to live together. So in many ways, Ali was not controversial. The laws were. Blacks could not use a toilet, that is controversial. Blacks soldiers could not -- that's controversial. Blacks had to pay taxes and could not vote, and that is controversial. The controversy was on the society. But he helped to change the society. So those walls have become bridges now, and in no small measure, because he used his celebrity to make it happen.

SCIUTTO: The cause is very much alive today, and perhaps some of the barriers as well.

Reverend Jackson, thank you for joining us.

JACKSON: Thank you very much.

SCIUTTO: We are back with more at 7:00 p.m. eastern time.

"Smerconish" is next.

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