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Wolf

Leon Panetta Talks Trump's Libya Position, His Endorsement of Clinton, Fight with ISIS for Fallujah; Sanders Vows to Stay in Race; Brazil's Microcephaly Babies Face Uncertain Future. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired June 06, 2016 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: When you hear Donald Trump make those various statements on Libya, for example --you're a former CIA director as well -- what goes through your mind when he seems to be changing his views on some very, very sensitive issues?

LEON PANETTA, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY & FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: My biggest concern is that he's running for president of the United States, and we're dealing with a very dangerous world. And I frankly don't know what his positions are when it comes to all of these threats that our country is facing. He takes one position one day and then another position the next day. And I think Secretary Clinton tried to point out that in her speech last week that this is a dangerous approach for someone who wants to be commander-in-chief of the United States. I worry that it's sending signal to countries abroad that or president of the United States really doesn't know what he really wants to do when it comes to protecting our national security.

BLITZER: And when he says, you know what, if Japan got nuclear weapons, for example, to defend itself, if Japan wasn't paying the U.S. more to keep U.S. troops in Japan and have the U.S. nuclear umbrella protect Japan from the threat, let's say, like North Korea, when he said, what would be wrong with Japan getting a nuclear arsenal, you say what?

PANETTA: I'd say, it's very dangerous for a presidential candidate to shoot from the hip when it comes to dealing with issues in the world, and in particular, dealing with nuclear issues. You don't just casually remark that Japan ought to have nuclear weapons or South Korea ought to have nuclear weapons or Saudi Arabia ought to have nuclear weapons or that it ought to have a big problem if these engage in a kind of war with North Korea. That attitude is an embarrassment and also irresponsible when we are dealing with very serious issues. I mean, the time has come to get beyond the primary and the insults and the attacks and personal attacks. The time has come, if he's serious about running for president, to have a serious conversation with the American people about just exactly what does he stand for when it comes to protecting our national security. We're not getting that kind of conversation wit Donald Trump.

BLITZER: I know you want Hillary Clinton to be the next president of the United States. You worked with her when you were in the Obama administration. She was secretary of state. One of the main points, he, Donald Trump, has against her is said she pushed and pushed to get Gadhafi out of Libya and look where Libya is today. They have been bad with Gadhafi but look at ISIS enclave that has developed a failed state in Libya today, and Hillary Clinton bears a lot of the responsibility for that. I want to get your response.

PANETTA: Look, I think it was important to go after Gadhafi. At that point in time, he was threatening to kill a lot of innocent people in Libya. And it would have been wrong for the United States to turn our backs on that kind of catastrophe. So we did go to war in Libya. And we pulled together a very strong coalition of NATO countries, Arab countries, all countries working together to bring down Gadhafi. It was the right thing to do. And I think it was the right thing to have leaders in Libya to try to come together to put that country in the right direction. I think there's a lot of responsibility here in terms of why things went wrong. I didn't think the international community supported Libya the way we should have. I don't think the United States provided the support system that we should have. And I think as a result of that, we did not see Libya pull together and be able to establish a stable government. And it's when instability takes place, as we've seen throughout the Middle East, that groups like ISIS take hold and that's what we're seeing today.

BLITZER: I want to take a break and continue this conversation. But the main point that Donald Trump makes, and even President Obama has acknowledged, there wasn't a good follow-up plan in place after you get rid of Gadhafi, then what? The U.S. didn't think that through enough. What Trump said was Hillary Clinton was secretary of state and didn't have a plan in place to make sure Libya would be a stable place following the removal of Gadhafi. Your thoughts?

PANETTA: I think there was a lot of efforts to do what we could to support the effort at trying to establish a stable Libyan government. I think there were efforts that were made, unfortunately, not the strong efforts we needed to provide a strong support system for Libya. I think the argument isn't whether or not we try to help Libya. We did. The issue is, did we try hard enough? I don't think we did.

[13:35:01] BLITZER: Mr. Panetta, stand by. We have more to discuss.

Up next, the U.S.-led coalition closing in now on ISIS and Fallujah. ISIS is lashing out, killing men, women and children trying to flee the violence. Thousands of civilians still stuck in Fallujah right now. Our conversation with the former defense secretary, Leon Panetta, continues right after this.

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[13:39:48] BLITZER: Multiple offenses under way right now. The roads streaming into cities held by ISIS, it's an effort, I should say, to try to cut off their supply lines and to eventually drive the terror group out. Backed by Russian power, the Syrian army pushed into Raqqa, into a province near Raqqa for the first time since 2014. They're trying to push into Raqqa city itself, the self-proclaimed capitol for ISIS. Across the border, the Iraqi military with the help of U.S. war planes stormed the first neighborhood in southern Fallujah over the weekend. The city has been held by ISIS since 2014. As many as 50,000 residents, civilians, have been remained trapped in Fallujah. Those who have managed to escape say ISIS is using civilians as human shields and shooting at those trying to flee.

Let's bring back our guest, the former Defense Secretary Leon Panetta.

Mr. Secretary, the situation involving ISIS in Iraq and Syria, is it clear to you that there's progress being made against ISIS? How long will it be to destroy, to defeat ISIS in Iraq and Syria?

PANETTA: Wolf, I think it's something we all understand that ISIS represents a clear-and-present danger to our country, and to countries in that part of the world and elsewhere. And for that reason, the president set the right mission, which is to defeat ISIS. If we're going to defeat ISIS, a quasi state, we've got to remove them from the territory they control, Raqqa in Syria to Mosul in Iraq. Those efforts have begun. They're obviously difficult. It's not easy to be able to develop the effective ground force you need to try to get it done. We use the Iraqis and other forces in Syria to be able to do this. But the United States is there. Our trainers and advisors are there. We're going to provide air support. What we have to do is energize that effort and push it. If we are to defeat ISIS, we simply have to remove them from the territories that they now control.

BLITZER: Why is the Iraqi military so inept right now? They can't even go into the second-largest city in Iraq, Mosul, and destroy ISIS there. They're trying to do something in Fallujah. This is an army that's been trained by the U.S., armed by the U.S., U.S. taxpayers have spent tens of billions of dollars, maybe hundreds of billions of dollars trying to build up the military, and today, they're so inept.

PANETTA: I think the problem, what has happened is that that country gave way to sectarian divisions that still impact on Iraq. The differences between Shias and Sunnis and Kurds is very deep in that country. And unfortunately, it's affected their security capability. When we left Iraq, I think the reality was that their armed forces did work together. Sunnis were part of it. Kurds were part of it. Shias were part of it. And that has collapsed. Now to try to put it back together again, into an effectively force, means trying to cut into the tribal differences. If we have an effective ground force, we've got to be able to break the sectarian divide, provide Sunni forces, Shia forces, Kurd forces, all working together if we're going to be successful.

BLITZER: One final question, Mr. Secretary, before I let you go. Is it time to partition Iraq into Kurdistan, a Shiite country and a separate Sunni country?

PANETTA: There's a long debate about whether or not we should do that but every time I talk to the Iraqi, they almost to a person refuse to have Iraq divide up into Shia and Sunni and Kurdish areas. They want a country. They want Iraq to be one country. What they've got to do is understand that they have a responsibility to govern together and to operate under those institutions that would bring all of the tribes together to maintain one country of Iraq. I think that's the better course of the future.

BLITZER: Mr. Secretary, as usual, thank you very much for your insight. PANETTA: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Up next, decision time for Bernie Sanders. With Hillary Clinton on the verge of potentially clinching the Democratic presidential nomination and an expected endorsement maybe as early as this week from President Obama, what will Senator Sanders' next steps be? We have details of a reported split within the Sanders camp. What should happen next? Stand by. We'll update you.

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[13:48:42] BLITZER: Now less than 30 minutes away from a Bernie Sanders news conference in San Francisco. He's expected to answer reporters' questions about his campaign and his vows to keep fighting Hillary Clinton past tomorrow's California primary, even as she potentially could secure enough delegates needed to win the nomination.

Joining us from New York is Jonathan Tasini, a Bernie Sanders supporter and also the author of an important book, "The Essential Bernie Sanders and His Vision for America."

Jonathan, thank you very much for joining us.

I want to get your action. President Obama apparently ready to endorse Hillary Clinton as early as this week if, in fact, she effectively clinches the nomination. What's your reaction to that?

JONATHAN TASINI, BERNIE SANDERS SUPPORTER & AUTHOR: Well, good to be with you, Wolf.

I want to start with a kind of a plea speaking as a journalist myself. We not talk about anything having to do with clinching or that she's going to secure enough delegates tomorrow. Nobody is going to clinch the nomination tomorrow. We are only going to know who the nominee is at the convention when the pledged delegates and the super delegates vote and there could be something in that. At the same time that I and every Sanders support acknowledges it's a steep hill to climb to get there. So I just want to put that on the table.

And in that respect, relative to the president, I won't question the president's right to do whatever he wants to do. But I think an endorsement should wait until the delegates speak their mind. It's possible that Bernie Sanders will be the nominees depending on what happens between roughly the 50 days between June 7th, tomorrow, and the convention roll-call vote.

[13:50:21] BLITZER: If you look at the math -- you have seen it, our viewers have seen it -- she is, by our count and others, only about 26 delegates away from reaching that magic number of 2,383.

Let me give you a little history of what happened eight years ago. I remember it very, very vividly. I'll play a clip. June 3rd, 2008, when we projected that then-Senator Barack Obama had enough delegates to clinch the Democratic nomination over Hillary Clinton. Listen to this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: CNN can now project that Senator Barack Obama has enough delegates to secure the Democratic presidential nomination. Senator Barack Obama goes over the threshold, goes over 2,118 delegates. He will be the Democratic presidential nominee

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right. That was eight years ago. June 7th of that year, Hillary Clinton formally conceded. She dropped out. She immediately went to work to try to help then-Senator Barack Obama win the presidency. That was based then on super delegates that he had in his pocket. Do you foresee a similar scenario unfolding in the coming days?

TASINI: Well, I can't get into Bernie Sanders' mind. I don't know what he's going to talk about, perhaps the next half hour. He is clear, and I'll say for myself, I'm willing to stand behind him all the way to the convention and fight on the floor for him to be the nominee. I think it's a little bit different. I'll tell you why, Wolf. Unlike the primary of 2008, and the reason many of us are sticking with Bernie right to the end is when he talks about a political revolution, and he really, really means this. There's a fundamental difference of what he espouses and the status quo candidate, Hillary Clinton, espouses. A difference of where the country is going, should go, and what the party should look like. So we want to have that debate. We want to take it all the way to the convention because of that different vision.

I'll add this. I think Bernie's clear in a couple of instances. Back during the debates, he said, on her worst day, Hillary Clinton is a thousand times better than Donald Trump. And I think that Hillary Clinton said roughly the same thing about Bernie Sanders. There's no doubt, whoever is the nominee, that other people supports the nominee to defeat Donald Trump. That's something we share.

BLITZER: Jonathan Tasini, a Bernie Sanders supporter. Jonathan, thank you for joining us.

TASINI: Pleasure to be here, Wolf.

BLITZER: The Olympic Games in Rio, less than two months away, and the concerns about the Zika Virus right now are growing. We'll go to ground zero of the outbreak. That's next.

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[13:57:18] BLITZER: With the Olympic games less than two months away fears over the spread of the Zika Virus are growing.

Our senior international correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Born into a struggle that grows as they age. This clinic is where the disease of Zika is cruelest in Brazil. Even with what happens when babies with Microcephaly grow and so do their problems.

Unable to tell us the pains, agonies they may or may not be feeling, or what we can do to help.

VERONICA SANTOS, MOTHER OF BABY WITH MICROCEPHALY (through translation): It was when he was born and faced the other people in the hospital. Their expressions, seeing and accepting the difference, for me, that was the hardest phase.

PATON WALSH (on camera): As the world works out how quickly it could spread here at ground zero, there's different problems of working, as these babies grow older, quite what the disease means for their development.

(voice-over): Artur cannot eat. Doctors say his brain can't switch between swallowing and breathing properly so he's fed by a drip and stunted in growth. The size of a 3-month-old, but he is now 8 months. They're testing the hearing, seeing if he turns his head to look. A little to the right, to the left, nothing.

This is how it goes here. Every minute, discoveries that alter the child's future.

Victoria was abandoned by her natural mother at birth, adopted by Kelly a month ago.

KELLY OLIVERA, ADOPTIVE MOTHER OF BABY WITH MICROCEPHALY (through translation): When we saw her, we fell in love with her. I didn't want to know what she had. She is my daughter.

PATON WALSH: And today may change her life. She's having her eyes stimulated, being fitted for glasses to find out if she can see at all. It's hard to tell what she sees, if the bright lights became real shapes.

With Lahandra (ph), it's more palpable. Her first sight. But still, her arms stiffen straight, her underdeveloped brain telling them to do so.

They talk here of prejudice, of days ferrying children between specialists doctors, of being fired from work because of that, of a lack of state money to pull them through.

This is the world that Zika brings, and here and globally it is only beginning.

Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Brasilia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)