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British MP Murdered During Divisive Brexit Campaigns; Police Focus on Orlando Shooter's Wife; Mourners Pay Respect to Joe Cox; Obama Renews Call for Gun Control; McCain Blames Obama for Orlando Massacre. Aired 2-3a ET

Aired June 17, 2016 - 02:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[02:00:15] JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. Welcome to our viewers all around the world. I'm John Vause.

AMARA WALKER, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Amara Walker.

British police say they investigated, quote, "malicious communications" made to slain M.P. Jo Cox back in March and even made an arrest. They say he is not the man detained Thursday in connection with her murder.

VAUSE: Cox was stabbed and shot after meeting with constituents. Many are leaving flowers outside the palace at Westminster in London and at makeshift memorials across the country.

Police have detained 52-year-old Tommy Mair, of Birstall, but they're not commenting on a possible motive.

WALKER: Cox was 41 years old, married, the mother of two children.

CNN's senior diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson, has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): It was a brazen attack in broad daylight. A peaceful suburban street turned into a scene of horror. British M.P. Jo Cox stabbed and shot outside a library in Birstall, northern England.

Her attacker, a 52-year-old man, arrested nearby. Several weapons recovered. Another man also injured at the scene.

Cox had been meeting constituents before eyewitnesses describe hearing screams in the street.

UNIDENTIFIED WITNESS: They weren't normal screams. They were panicking. And then, like, looked down the road, a woman laying on the floor.

ROBERTSON: Cox was taken to a nearby hospital but doctors couldn't save her. DEE COLLINS, TEMPORARY CHIEF CONSTABLE, WEST YORKSHIRE POLICE

DEPARTMENT: I am now very sad to have to report that she has died as a result of her injuries. Before going into further details, I would like to express our deepest sympathies to her family and friends at this tragic time.

ROBERTSON: She has been an M.P. since last May, a member of the opposition Labour Party.

Her party described her deep commitment to humanity and a strong sense of public duty.

JO COX, MURDERED BRITISH MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: The thing that surprises me time and time again as I travel around the constituency is that we are far more united and have far more in common than that which divides us.

ROBERTSON: That community is now reeling at her loss.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a shock because you don't expect it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With it being a public figure, well, with anyone being shot in the town center, it's quite saddening.

ROBERTSON (on camera): This whole community is in shock. And none, of course, in more shock and in deeper mourning than Jo Cox's husband, Brendan Cox. He has released a statement. It's powerful and poignant. I will read it to you. "Jo believed in a better world and she fought for it every day of her life with an energy and a zest for life that would exhaust most people. She would have wanted two things above all else to happen now. One, that our precious children are bathed in love and, two, that we all unite against the fight against the hatred that killed her. Hate doesn't have a creed, race or religion. It is poisonous."

(voice-over): Cox was a vocal advocate of Britain remaining in the E.U. She and her family had been involved in campaigning ahead of next week's referendum. Both the Leave and Remain camps have now suspended their campaigns as a mark of respect.

DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: She was an M.P., a great campaigning M.P., with huge compassion, with a big heart. And -- people are going to be very, very sad at what has happened.

ROBERTSON: A moment for the country to pause and remember the service of one of its youngest and most promising lawmakers as police try to establish a motive for this vicious killing.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Birstall, England.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALKER: The sound of the gunshots prompted some people to rush to the area and offer their help. Nishin Bin Abdullah (ph) is the owner of a nearby restaurant.

VAUSE: He says he started running when he heard the first shot. Earlier on CNN, he described the scene.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NISHIN BIN ABDULLAH (ph), WITNESS & RESTAURANT OWNER (voice-over): I saw a lady laying down on the -- on the -- on the road away from the curb about six foot or 5.5 foot. And she was sat with her knees up and leaning on her arm with her head held back and her hair roughed up. She must have been pulled by her hair as well. And blood running from her face and running down her legs. It's absolutely sad. And she -- I could not believe. Later on, they told me, Jo Cox, I could not believe it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALKER: That's horrible to hear that.

CNN's Max Foster joining us now from London.

Max, start with the latest on the investigation. And what, what we are learning about the suspect.

[02:05:00] MAX FOSTER, CNN LONDON CORRESPONDENT: We're waiting for an update really. All they said is they're not looking for anyone else in relation to this. It was a localized incident which suggests -- obviously dismisses the idea of anything terror related. But the local media here are very focused on whether or not there was a political motivation here. So suggestions that the alleged attacker called out the words "Britain first," which is a right-wing anti- immigration group here in the U.K. They've distanced themselves from that.

But really, the focus is around the questioning of this 52-year-old man what his motivation was. And, you know, Amara in this country the sort of reporting restrictions about what can be said from here only increase. He hasn't been charged yet. Once he becomes charged, they tend to hold back most of the information to a trial. Wait to hear any more updates from the police today. But so far, no major updates apart from the fact they've arrested a 52-year-old. He's only been named by the local media. Hasn't even been named by the police at this point.

VAUSE: And, Max, you talked about possible political connotations of this murder, maybe this link to Britain First, a hard right nationalist party. The leader of Britain First put out a video statement, condemning the killing, but saying any reports that Britain First was yelled at the team of the attack is simply hearsay.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL GOLDING, LEADER, BRITAIN FIRST: The media are acting grossly irresponsible to try to incriminate our organization, Britain First, in this heinous crime, because we had nothing to do with it. We would not condone actions like that. This kind of thing is disgusting. It's an outrage. And I hope that the person that carried out this heinous crime will get what he deserves, probably not in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: So, just explain what the connection here is, if Britain first, some how involved, though nothing proven, and this denial. Why are people putting this connection to them?

FOSTER: Well, she was very much in the other end of the political spectrum. She would always talk about the benefits of immigration locally, which was a contentious issue, but it's become even more contentious as we look ahead to the referendum here in the U.K. and whether or not Britain should stay within the European Union. Immigration has been a key part of that debate. But particularly so in areas outside London, in rural areas, suburban areas where she operated in. So she very much represents the opposite end of the spectrum from where people are suggesting we should put up walls effectively around the U.K., not allow immigrants in, they're taking our jobs. She would fight against that. A lot of suggestions that she had been facing a social media campaign against her and what she stood up for.

And we learning at the same time, across the political divide, highly respected as a member of parliament. Only been a member of parliament for a year, but she stood by her convictions. They very much in line with her whole career as a voluntary worker. She worked for aid organizations, worked with the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. She had this very promising career. Standing up for her convictions. Obviously, upsets people in politics. Whether or not this played into her death, that's what is frightening people in the country, the idea that somebody could be killed for having strong views about something which is a wide political debate.

WALKER: You said she was quite well respected, Max. We're hearing a lot about how people are remembering her, what kind of person she was.

Let's take a listen to how one fellow M.P. is honoring Jo Cox.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED BRITISH PARLIAMENT MEMBER: The fact that Jo had energy, drive, passion to change the world. Ultimately, what we go into politics for to change things. Jo had got that in bucketfuls. Such energy, drive, wasn't going to let anything, being less than a year in parliament to step in her way. She wasn't that sort of person. Whatever she was going to do in the future of her life, she would have succeeded at. But we will now never know. We have been robbed really of the talents that she had to bring.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALKER: Obviously, a lot of kind words there, repeating what you said, being very well-respected, a passionate public servant.

But can you talk a little bit about the mood and just how shocked some people are, especially the M.P.s, and how concerned they might be about their own security?

FOSTER: People are discussing whether or not members of parliament should be meeting the public in the way they do at annual -- weekly surgeries, they call them, these meetings with their constituents, and then they take those issues up to London and address them. It's a tradition in the liberal democracy. And members of parliament are now concerned that they're exposing themselves to risk. This really highlights that.

They talked about it a lot in parliament recently anyway because of the rise of social media has exposed them to more abuse. That is being expressed physically as well. This is the worst case scenario. So some members of parliament canceled their surgeries. But at the same time, they don't want to cancel them completely. I was listening to radio earlier. I heard one of Jo Cox's -- one of the M.P.s used to be in her position, the opposite party, said on several occasions she had to have the police stand by. So I'm not sure that the British system could possibly afford security for every constituency meeting. The police are going to be more aware of threats to members of parliament, may assess situations and, on merit, attend the surgeries. No one wants to see the end of them.

[02:10:39] VAUSE: Max, thank you. Max Foster, live in London, with the latest. Thanks, Max.

WALKER: The London mayor, Siddiq Khan, has released a statement mourning Jo Cox's death, saying, quote, "Everyone who met Jo knew she was special. In the year she was an M.P. she made more impact than others make in a whole parliamentary career. She was also warm, and funny. I remember her telling me recently she was going to get permission from the House of Commons to park her little boat at parliament so she could drive it to work. It is typical of Jo that she was serving her community today, doing what she loved when this horrific attack happened. She was the best of politics, the best of Labour, and I will miss her."

VAUSE: This killing all the more shocking considering is England known for its tight gun laws and very low rates of gun violence. England and Wales are something of a gun-free zone with just 6.2 guns per 100 people, according to the Small Arms Survey. England's low rate of gun ownerships are due to strict gun laws, which empower law officials to deny gun licenses to citizens at their discretion. Because of the tight laws, the United Kingdom has a very low gun homicide rate.

WALKER: Also, a former member of the U.S. Congress, Gabrielle Giffords, was shot and seriously wounded while meeting with her constituents back in 2011. Thursday, she tweeted this, "Absolutely sickened to hear of the assassination of Jo Cox. She was young, courageous and hard working, a rising star, mother and wife."

VAUSE: Much more on our top story this hour, including a look at how this deadly attack on a British M.P. might, in fact, impact the upcoming Brexit referendum.

WALKER: Plus, the investigation into the deadly mass shooting in the U.S. now centering on the gunman's wife.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [02:16:32] WALKER: President Barack Obama and Vice President Joe Biden paid their respects to the victim's of Sunday's terror attack in Orlando.

VAUSE: They laid 49 flowers at a memorial, one for each victim. Mr. Obama and Mr. Biden also met privately with the families of survivors. The president said they wanted know when the violence would stop.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today, once again, as has been true too many times before, I held and hugged grieving family members and parents and they ask, why does this keep happening. And they pleaded that we do more to stop the carnage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Meanwhile, the shooting investigation now centering on the gunman's wife.

WALKER: They especially want to know, what did she know? Could she have stopped the massacre?

Jim Sciutto has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): CNN has learned that Omar Mateen and his wife, Noor Salman, exchanged text messages during the nightclub attack. This, according to a law enforcement official. At one point, he asked if she was watching the news. Salman also tried calling her husband several times during the standoff with police.

New video of the attack captured on a cell phone from inside the Pulse nightclub bathroom shows frightened club goers taking cover in a bathroom stall.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(GUNFIRE)

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SCIUTTO: We continue to learn more about the harrowing moments inside the club.

CAPTAIN MARK CANTY, ORLANDO POLICE SWAT COMMANDER: There were other patrol officers running inside pulling out victims. So while gunfire is still going on, you know, just as our officers engage, other police officers are running in there, you know, no regard for their safety and pulling some of the victims out.

SCIUTTO: Omar Delgado was one of the first police officers on the scene. OFC. OMAR DELGADO, ORLANDO POLICE DEPARTMENT: It was kind of dark.

Had a disco light still going. And I just began yelling, hey, guys, come on up, come on up. Come on up. We got you. We got you. Unfortunately it took a minute. But realized they weren't faking. It was just they couldn't get up.

SCIUTTO: In an interview with CNN's Andersen Cooper, Police Chief John Mina, explained why officers waited hours before storming the nightclub despite victims shot and bleeding inside desperate to be rescued.

JOHN MINA, CHIEF, ORLANDO POLICE DEPARTMENT: Our officers went in there, exchanged gunfire with him, forced him to retreat and basically become a barricaded gunman in the bathroom.

SCIUTTO: Police made the call to blow through a wall and enter the club when Mateen made a threat to detonate bombs inside.

MINA: We had information that he was going to put explosive vests on four people and then blow the place up in 15 minutes. By that time, we were already set with our explosive breach and that's when we made the decision.

SCIUTTO: Investigators now continue to look at what Mateen's wife, Noor Salman, knew about Mateen's plans. Salman has given conflicting statements, according to law enforcement officials, but admits she suspected Mateen was planning an attack, possibly on Pulse. Salman told investigators on the day before the shooting she tried to tell Mateen not to commit an act of violence but she did not call the police.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: The Orlando shooting brings back the horror of another mass shooting at a Colorado movie theater nearly four years age.

WALKER: In both cases, people were gunned down while simply out enjoying their lives.

Mr. Obama talked about that shortly after the attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[02:20:01] OBAMA: I'm sure that many of you who are parents here had the same reacting that I did when I heard this news. My daughters go to the movies. What if Malia and Sasha had been at the theater, as so many of our kids do every day? Michelle and I will be fortunate enough to hug our girls a little tighter tonight. I am sure you will do the same with your children. But for those parents who may not be so lucky, we have to embrace them and let them know we will be there for them as a nation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Lonnie and Sandy Phillips join us from Denver, Colorado. Their daughter, 24-year-old Jessica, was killed in the rampage in Aurora along with 11 others.

It must be a really difficult week for you guys reliving everything that you want through, hearing what happened in Orlando. How are you coping?

SANDY PHILLIPS, DAUGHTER JESSICA KILLED AT AURORA MOVIE THEATER: I think we are doing OK. It took the first two, three days to kind of collect ourselves again. You know, it is devastating every time you hear about one of these mass shootings in this country. Because they're so common now. The sheer number was -- absolutely astonishing. And anger rose up because we continue to allow tight happen.

WALKER: I can only understand that anger.

I know both you've have been pushing for change for gun laws in the United States. And after every massacre we have seen Congress try to bring some measures to a vote, and they have been rejected, including the ones that will be vote on now after the 15-hour filibuster by the Senate Democrats, one that would prevent terrorists from getting a gun and expand background checks. Are you hopeful at all this time around, realistically?

LONNIE PHILLIPS, DAUGHTER JESSICA KILLED AT AURORA MOVIE THEATER: We are hopeful, not realistically. We know what we are up against right now in Congress. And it is a Congress bought and paid for by the NRA. They have a powerful stranglehold on our Congress right now. We are hopeful that these elections coming up we are going to clean house and get the Congress in a place where they will pass some reasonable legislation. That's what we are helpful for. And this last mass killing I think it sent a shock wave through this country that we haven't really seen before. We thought so after Newtown. It fizzled out when they took the vote. We got 54 votes. We needed 60, and a super majority, which to me is not a democracy. You get 54 votes, you should have it passed. Didn't happen here because of our laws. Yeah, we are disappointed and very hopeful.

VAUSE: Lonnie, Sandy, "USA Today" had -- did a count. Since Jessica killed there have been 78 mass shootings, almost 400 people have been killed in those shootings and yet, nothing ever changes. 20 children were shot dead at Sandy hook. Nothing ever changes. Why?

SANDY PHILLIPS: Well, like my husband said. The NRA has a stranglehold on our Congress. And -- it's changing. I see a change. And the White House sees a change. People are beginning to speak up. What's going on? What can we do? Not just the mass shootings. They get the attention because they're so shocking. But we lose 91 people every day in America. And eight of those are children. That doesn't count how many are wounded. 200 wounded every day in the country. It is just short of a war zone. We have to get our heads around this in this country. Or we are going to disintegrate into perhaps a civil war or disintegrate into a society I certainly don't want to be part of.

WALKER: You raise a good point about the NRA having a stranglehold on Congress. The NRA is a very powerful lobby group that spends millions and millions on campaigns and contributing to our representation. The NRA has been outspoken about being oppose to closing this terror gap. Right? They don't want to -- they want to allow some people to get guns even if they were on a terror watch list at some point. I guess they're most concerned about innocent people mistakenly getting on a watch list and mistakenly getting their Second Amendment rights revoked. What do you say to that argument?

SANDY PHILLIPS: I say --

(CROSSTALK)

LONNIE PHILLIPS: How inconvenient is that?

SANDY PHILLIPS: Yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

LONNIE PHILLIPS: That's really inconvenient. We have to take our shoes off now because somebody tried to bomb an airplane. But you have somebody on a terror watch list. You have two lines getting on the plane. 40 percent go in one line, no checks at all. 60 percent in the other line. Would you get on the plane? I don't think so.

[02:25:18] VAUSE: That's a good point.

Lonnie, Sandy, we spoke with you in the past. It is always so sad when we get to speak. Hopefully, we don't have to talk again.

Thank you so much.

SANDY PHILLIPS: Thank you for having us.

WALKER: Thank you.

LONNIE PHILLIPS: Thank you.

WALKER: Well, we have heard so many people plead with American lawmakers to do something about gun violence. Well, finally, some action. The Senate is expected to, to vote next week on two gun control measures. The commitment from Senate leaders came after Democrat Chris Murphy ended a nearly 15-hour filibuster. And it happened four days after the Orlando terrorist attack.

VAUSE: During the 15 hours that Senator Murphy was filibustering on the Senate floor pushing for action on gun control, 48 people across the United States were shot. The news website, Vox, says there were 38 different shootings, left 12 people dead, 36 others injured. That's one shooting every 23 minutes.

WALKER: We want to take a look at other stories we are following this hour.

(HEADLINES)

WALKER: And our Fareed Zakaria is interviewing Russian President Vladimir Putin. Don't miss that interview. Catch that here on CNN, Sunday, at 9:00 a.m. in Hong Kong or at noon in London.

VAUSE: We'll be back with our top story in a moment, with Prime Minister David Cameron's response to a deadly attack on a British member of parliament. You are watching CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's dreadful. Poor girl. For the first time in many, many years, we actually had an M.P. that was interested, interested in the people and the businesses here. And for this to happen is just --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[02:31:09] DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: She had a huge heart. Very compassionate campaigning M.P. She was a bright star, no doubt about it, a star for her constituents, a star in parliament, and a star right across the House. We lost a star. But above all, I am thinking of her husband, Brendan, her children, her family, and her constituents, who will be feeling this huge sense of loss tonight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMARA WALKER, CNN ANCHOR: British Prime Minister David Cameron talking there about Jo Cox, a rising star in the country's parliament, killed by an attacker on the streets of her home district.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: Police now say they investigated what they called "malicious communications" made to Cox back in March. They have made an arrest but say not the man who they detained Thursday in connection with Cox's murder.

WALKER: That man is 52-year-old Tommy Mair. Police are searching his home in the town in Birstall where the attack took place.

Now Cox was elected to parliament in May of last year. She was married with two young children.

VAUSE: Mourners are paying their respects outside parliament in London at an impromptu memorial.

Phil Black is there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The flag, the huge flag over Britain houses of parliament is at half mast. It was a little over a year ago that Joe Cox became one of the 650 members of Britain's lower house of parliament. Today, everyone from prime minister down has been expressing impact she made on politics in the country at the highest level through interest in international affairs, refugees, various international problems but also as a local M.P., their admiration for her as an M.P., mother and friend.

Other people are coming, too, where they have been coming to lay flowers and candles before this image of a smiling Jo Cox. They have been writing messages to her as well. One says, "We are not Remain, Leave, Tory, Labour or Lib Dem tonight. We are Britains with a belief in parliament and democracy."

In one week's time, the British people are supposed to make perhaps the greatest political decision of their life. After a long, bitter, difficult, often ugly campaign to decide through referendum if the country will stay in the European Union. Tonight, through unexpected tragedy, many people find themselves reflecting upon the very meaning of politics and democracy in this country.

Phil Black, CNN, London.

VAUSE: Fellow lawmakers and politicians have paused their U.K. referendum campaigns to pay tribute to Cox. Labour Party leader, Jeremy Corbyn, laid flowers at a vigil on Thursday. He talked earlier about the Cox and how her memory will be honored.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEREMY CORBYN, LABOUR PARTY LEADER: We need how to come together and express deep condolences to Jo and her family. We've lost a wonderful woman. We've lost a wonderful Member of Parliament. But our democracy will go on. Her work will go on. As we mourn her memory, we will work in her memory to achieve that better world she spent her life trying to achieve.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALKER: And Max Foster is covering all of this from London.

Max, obviously, the death of Cox changing the tone in the political rhetoric as well.

MAX FOSTER, CNN LONDON CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. I think a lot of politicians are doing a lot of soul-searching today, the sort of threats that expose themselves to by going out and meeting the public, but also how this referendum campaign has become so aggressive. And Jo Cox really being seen as someone who was very measured in the debate and perhaps the whole debate should be toned down to the level that she was famous for, speaking to it, too.

I am joined by Andrew Blick. He's a lecturer on politics and contemporary history at King's College.

We don't know whether this was politically motivated. The local media very much looking to that narrative, aren't they, on this? If it was politically motivated from someone from on the far right, how does that play into the referendum next week?

[02:35:11] ANDREW BLICK, POLITICS & CONTEMPORARY HISTORY LECTURER, KINGS COLLEGE: It certainly could have an effect on the tone of the campaign. Obviously, we may not find out in the public domain very much. It involves the vote next week. However, both sides will want to respond sensitively to what happened. There has been a powerful migration string to the argument, the Exit campaign, the campaign keen to promote the idea that by leaving, we will somehow get control of migration in the country again. They may now be a bit wary of playing that message up too highly and pushing it too aggressively, and may want to back off a bit. It may be a problem for them. Their campaign was doing well up to this point. It had the momentum. It was going the right way in the polls. So this may be a bit of set back for that side of the campaign.

FOSTER: She was a conviction politician, that's for sure.

Let's hear what Jo Cox herself had to say about the referendum and which way people should go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JO COX, MURDERED BRITISH MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: Many businesses in Yorkshire want the security and stability of Britain's continued membership of the European Union, a cause I look forward to passionately championing in this place and elsewhere.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: That message is going to resonate so much more now, isn't it? We're learning so much about her. But the "Remain" campaign was falling behind, as you say. Just a pause in the campaign is going to help them, even if you take away the direct connection.

BLICK: When one side is doing well, the last thing they want is a break in a campaign. It's a bit like a tennis match. If you are ahead, you don't want the play to stop. From the point of view of campaigning, aside from the tone that may come later, it is something that probably the Exit campaign wouldn't have wanted. However, obviously, everyone is going to be shocked by what happened. They're going to want to respond sensitively. Politicians aren't actually that cynical. They will be saddened by what's happened.

FOSTER: Just on the mechanics of this, it's set next week, the referendum, on Thursday. Can it be moved?

BLICK: I think that is extremely unlikely and it would be an extremely difficult thing to do. I think -- I suspect it will still have to go ahead. This won't be seen as sufficient cause to delay the referendum, would be my guess.

FOSTER: In terms of the wider context of the discussion today, Members of Parliament and politicians are feeling vulnerable. They so horrified by this. This is one of their own who has died in a horrific way. She was at a constituency meeting, which they do every week. What are they saying about the exposure to danger that they face? There's been a debate in parliament. Committees have discussed it recently, haven't they?

BLICK: Yes. Obviously, every M.P. has people in their constituency who may be difficult, a problem, strange. That's not -- that's not new. But it will be a real problem for democracy if there is a danger that M.P.s feel unsafe in actually having face-to-face physical contact with the people who elected them. This is a crucial part of their role, particularly, British M.P.s have a principle they're willing, able, and have a duty to see constituents and take up issues on their behalf. If that can't happen in this way any longer or if they're wary of doing it, that is a real problem for our system of government.

FOSTER: The alternative is using social media. We're learning more and more of attacks she suffered on social media as well. It's not unusual for a politician who has strong views like she did.

BLICK: Not unusual at all. This is a wider issue connected to social media, and the general problems of abuse that can take place on the formats.

FOSTER: You can't avoid it. When trying to discuss things with you constituents, you have to look at the messages we can ignore.

BLICK: Yes, they have to take up issues. They have to seen to respond to their constituencies. Many of them are philosophical about it. They know it's the job they went into. Abuse comes as the part of the job. There are lines and there are improper forms of abuse, even before you get to the more extreme and tragic thing which happened yesterday.

FOSTER: Andrew, thank you very much, indeed.

Amara and John, everyone having this -- the outpouring of grief, the loss of this conviction politician we are learning so much about, but also looking ahead to the referendum, people are wondering how on earth this is going to play into it and how sensitively to deal with it.

VAUSE: Yeah, she was a conviction politician. She was also a wife, mom to two little girls. It's such a tragic story on so many levels.

Thanks, Max.

[02:39:42] WALKER: Thank you, Max.

We're going to take a short break from here. When we return, days after the Orlando massacre, President Obama is renewing his call for gun control. Coming up, a look at both sides of the issue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALKER: Welcome back, everyone. U.S. President Barack Obama is again calling for action against gun violence.

VAUSE: His latest remarks came on Thursday after he met with grieving families of the victims of the mass shooting at a gay nightclub in Orlando.

VAUSE: Joining us now, to talk more about the politics of the gun debate, Democratic strategist, Dave Jacobson; and Republican consultant, John Thomas.

Guys, thanks for being with us.

The president in Orlando was critical of Republicans for blocking gun reform again, and he's now clearly linking this shooting at the Pulse nightclub with other domestic shootings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Those who were injured and killed here were gunned down by a single killer with a powerful assault weapon. The motives of this killer may have been different than the mass shooters in Aurora or Newtown but the instruments of death were so similar.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: John, to you, isn't gun control in this country a legitimate way of dealing with homegrown terrorists?

JOHN THOMAS, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT: It is treating a symptom, not the cause. That's what so many people are concerned about. You can look towards other mass casualty events. If guns are outlawed, they will use something else, fertilizer bombs, cars, or knives. You look at that in other places in the world that have really restrictive gun laws. I think people want Obama to get tougher on terror and take the fight to them and not get distracted with gun control, which sounds appealing at the time, but they think it is a band-aid on a larger problem.

DAVE JACOBSON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Fertilizer bombs aren't a problem in the U.S. Mass gun shootings are.

THOMAS: Well, they have, I mean --

VAUSE: We had one.

THOMAS: Right.

VAUSE: Timothy McVeigh used the fertilizer bomb once.

THOMAS: Yes.

JACOBSON: Right.

VAUSE: We have had almost 400 people killed between the Aurora shooting in Denver and what happened in Orlando.

[02:45:16] THOMAS: If we make guns so restrictive, first of all, I think it will create a black market. The criminals who don't abide by the law will still get the guns. Also, they don't use guns. They will go into nightclubs with vests like they do in other parts of the countries.

JACOBSON: I think the challenge is Barack Obama has public opinion on his side. 60 percent of Americans believe we have to have tougher gun laws. CBS released a poll today showing only 25 percent of Americans approve of the way Donald Trump responded to the Orlando massacre.

WALKER: Let's talk about the practical solutions. International viewers are watching and they're seeing there was a 15-hour filibuster, now Senate Republicans, party leaders have agreed to vote on two bills that have gone through Congress before, expanded background checks and also trying to prevent suspected terrorists from being able to buy guns.

Where is this going to go? I mean, this failed every single time, Dave. Are -- is there hope?

JACOBSON: Right. I think it is possible now that public opinion is starting to shift. After the San Bernardino terrorist attack, 53 Senators voted against putting -- instituting terror watch list ban preventing people on the FBI list from purchasing guns. I think now that we have the largest massacre in American history, and with public opinion on the side, there is a possible pathway for some collaboration between the Republicans and the Democrats. We are not there yet but there is movement.

THOMAS: And I think you might see some collaboration, but the problem you have, sometimes gun control advocates reach too far. Instead of saying -- coming up with saying a terror watch list fix, they will say, well, we need to ban all assault rifles, the most popular gun to buy. That shuts down public opinion. You have to be careful not to reach too far.

VAUSE: What I don't understand about the argument is when people say, oh, no, the criminals will still get the guns. They're criminals and they will break the law. That's why you have laws. That's like saying criminals commit murder, so should we get rid of the murder laws as well? I never understood the argument. Can you explain it to me?

THOMAS: Well, I think murders -- murdering someone is not necessarily self defense.

(CROSSTALK)

THOMAS: Guns are used for self defense. The argument is you make it harder and harder and harder for somebody to defend themselves, that is a problem.

WALKER: You have someone like Senator Mitch McConnell who says he is open to changing gun laws. Are you open to that as well? When you hear someone, a stalwart like Mitch McConnell saying, yeah, maybe we need to start looking at these laws because it will prevent mass shootings like Orlando?

THOMAS: Yeah, personally, I am torn. I do think it is a slippery slope. There is a larger agenda at play. If you give an inch, the next thing you know, all guns are outlawed. I am worried about that. But the other side goes there are common-sense reforms.

Look, Donald Trump has said he is going to go meet with the NRA and talk about reforms. Wouldn't that be quite the coup if Donald Trump could get the NRA to make concessions on gun laws?

VAUSE: You said Americans want basically Obama to take the fight to ISIS, to fight terrorism. John McCain had tough word for Obama about that, essentially linking him directly off to the Orlando shooting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R), ARIZONA: Barack Obama is directly responsible for it, because when he pulled everyone out of Iraq, al Qaeda went to Syria and became ISIS, and ISIS is what it is today, thanks to Barack Obama's failures.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALKER: OK, he then walked that back a little on Twitter. He said, "To clarify, I was referring to President Obama's national security decisions that led to the rise of ISIL not to the president himself."

But, but, Dave, it would clearly seem that this is the Republican argument that they're linking to international terrorism rather than gun control, Democrats want to do it the other way around.

JACOBSON: John McCain knows what he said was categorically false. What Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid said was Senate Republicans have become puppets of Donald Trump. They've joined the bandwagon and they're desperate to maintain their seats. John McCain is in a nail- biter race, down two points against Congresswoman Ann Kirkpatrick. This is a desperate attempt to score political points and make headlines, sort of following on the heels of Donald Trump's media magnate attempt to continue to stay in the news.

THOMAS: I think it was a slip of the tongue. But I think Senator McCain feels that while the president isn't directly responsible for Orlando, he thinks the president and administration should be doing a better job at taking the fight to the terrorists.

WALKER: Quickly, I want to ask a basic question one more time. Mass shootings are a uniquely American issue. So again, why is it so difficult to get any change to gun laws, Dave?

JACOBSON: Fundamentally, the NRA has a strangle over Republicans in Congress. Public opinion polls, you know, continuously said, look, we want more common-sense, level-headed gun control laws, background checks, assault weapons bans. The problem is these members of Congress are scared the NRA is going to run some one against them. Look, at the end of the day, every member of Congress is concerned about getting re-elected. That's their chief priority.

[02:50:12] WALKER: For political seasons.

JACOBSON: Yeah.

THOMAS: I agree with Dave. But I think it's beyond the NRA. It's the potency of the gun issue. Many Americans feel they need the right to protect themselves. It is just an issue that you just don't touch if you do want to get re-elected, NRA aside. WALKER: It's a problem though when Congress doesn't reflect what the

public believes in. I mean, 85 or 89 percent.

VAUSE: Yeah.

(CROSSTALK)

WALKER: -- they want expanded background checks. That is not happening. Congress is not reflecting the voice of the people. A problem.

VAUSE: Good to speak with you. Thank you for staying up late.

(CROSSTALK)

WALKER: Thank you.

We'll take a short break. Just ahead, we'll get back to our top story, a British M.P. killed in a brutal attack. Her own words to parliament is up next.

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(WEATHER REPORT)

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED CANADIAN MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: I understand that there is an agreement to observe a moment of silence in honor of Ms. Jo Cox, United Kingdom Member of Commons for Batley and Spen. I now invite the House to rise to observe a moment of silence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[02:55:02] WALKER: Members of the Canadian House of Commons silently reflection on the murder of a colleague overseas.

VAUSE: British police have arrested a suspect in the fatal attack on Jo Cox. 52-year-old Tommy Mair was detained blocks from the scene. Authorities say he is not the same man who was arrested for, quote, "malicious communications" made to Cox back in March.

WALKER: The young Labour M.P. had just wrapped up her weekly meeting with constituents when she was attacked Thursday. Colleagues describe her as a rising star in the opposition party. She was 41 years old, married, with two young children.

On that note, you have been watching CNN NEWSROOM, live from Los Angeles. I'm Amara Walker.

VAUSE: I'm John Vause.

We leave you now with Jo Cox in her own words from her first speech at parliament almost a year ago. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COX: And whilst we celebrate our diversity, the thing that surprises me time and time again as I travel around the constituency is that we are far more united and have far more in common than that which divides us. My constituency is also home to FOX's Biscuits and Lion Confectionary.

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

COX: So I'm sure you will not think it is an indulgence, Mr. Speaker, if I describe Batley and Spen as a constituency with an industrial heart wrapped in a very rich and pleasant Yorkshire landscape, geographical, historical, and cultural.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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