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Trump Fires Campaign Manager Corey Lewandowski; DOJ Closes Kendrick Johnson Death Case; FBI Releases Redacted Transcripts of Gunman's 911 Calls; Trump Wants to Bring Back Racial Profiling; Cavaliers Win NBA Championship. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired June 20, 2016 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00] M.J. LEE, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: He doesn't always take advice, even from people that he's very close to, and this obviously was an exception. Even in the fact that Trump decided to let go of the campaign manager.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It was a long time coming.

LEE: Right.

BASH: A long time coming to your point. All of our reporting is it was -- the RNC chair, Reince Priebus, it was not just Ivanka, but the children, the son-in-law and many others, including donors, and trying to g at that with Corey saying, like, who is this guy and what's happening? I won't give to your campaign if he is acting like this.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Left no stone unturned.

Dana Bash, my hat off to you. Great he was willing to sit with you as long as he did.

BASH: It was.

BALDWIN: So if you want to see the interview, I'm sure, go to CNN.com and it will be there.

M.J. Lee, thank you as well.

I appreciate it.

Let's pivot to Orlando, though, for now. Breaking today, the FBI releasing the transcripts of phone calls with that killer in Orlando as the massacre unfolded. Hear about the police negotiations and what this terrorist threatened.

Plus, using this attack as an example, Donald Trump suggests America should use racial profiling. We'll debate both sides ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:35:28] BALDWIN: Welcome back. More breaking news for you on this Monday in regards to the death of a young man by the name of Kendrick Johnson. Georgia high school student found dead inside of a gym wrestling mat rolled up. His family has been demanding answers for years about what had happened to him.

We've had Victor Blackwell on the story from the beginning. He is on the phone in Macon, Georgia, with the breaking details.

Victor, when's happened?

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The headline first, Brooke, the Department of Justice closing the investigation with insufficient evidence to file charges. You will remember he was found dead at the high school in South Georgia upside down in a rolled gym mat, January of 2013. Investigators then said his death was accidental. The family did not believe that. They believed their son was beaten. They had his body exhumed and pathologists found evidence of blunt force trauma, calling it a homicide. Department of Justice says investigators to establish any federal criminal rights violation would have had to proved beyond a reasonable doubt that not only someone killed him and motivated by racial animus and very high threshold. They have not met that threshold according to their estimation. Kendrick's Johnson's parents are meeting with the U.S. attorney here in Macon, Georgia. The acting U.S. attorney of northern Ohio where this case is being led also with other officials here to get the news that they were hoping that they would not get at the end of this.

Now, what this news release that's just sent out does not say is definitively how Kendrick Johnson died. In fact, at the end of this statement from the acting U.S. attorney in northern Ohio, she writes, "We regret that we're unable to provide them with more definitive answers about Kendrick's tragic death." No federal criminal charges in this case. But still, no answers after more than three and a half years for Johnson's parents about exactly how he died.

BALDWIN: No charges. No answers.

Victor Blackwell, thank you for staying on it all these years. Appreciate you there in Georgia.

Now to Orlando, and we are now learning the chilling words of a mass killer as he carried out the deadliest shooting massacre in U.S. history at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando. Edited conversations of the transcripts of the conversations with operators and then negotiators. 33 minutes into the deadly rampage, the killer had this exchange with the dispatcher: "Emergency 911. This is being recorded," the operator says. And he responds, "In the name of God, the merciful, the beneficial" -- in Arabic he speaks. The operator doesn't understand. He says, "Praise be to God, and prays as well. Peace on the prophet of God. In Arabic, he's speaking. "I'll let you know I'm in Orlando and I did the shootings." 911 operator continues, "What is your name?" Shooter, "I pledge allegiance to blank. May god protect him" -- still speaking in Arabic -- "on behalf of blank." Dispatcher, "All right. Where are you at?" Shooter, "In Orlando." "Where in Orlando?" And then the call ends.

Investigators don't want to release the actual recordings and chose to redact ISIS, the terror group he pledged allegiance to, so as not to glorify or encourage copy cats. But in a news conference, they did describe the attacker's tone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RON HOOPER, FBI ASSISTANT SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: While we're not releasing the audio I can tell you while the killer made the murderous statements, he did so in a chilling, calm and deliberate manner.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Here with me now, Wally Zeins, former NYPD hostage negotiator supervisor and with NYPD for 30 years as a detective sergeant; and Mary Ellen O'Toole, former FBI special agent and senior profiler.

Welcome to both of you.

Wally, turning to you first, reading further in the conversations not just with the 911 operator but with the negotiator, you know all about negotiating, he talks about the suicide vests, like used in France, which they apparently didn't find evidence of. Talks about the Boston bombers, the anger of U.S. coalition bombing of the Islamic State. What struck you the most?

[14:40:13] WALLACE ZEINS, FORMER NYPD HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR INVESTIGATOR & FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE SERGEANT: When he spoke about the bombing that he might have a bomb and might have an explosive device. He also in the conversation was talking about he was going to put four bomb vests on some of the hostages. Also, he said his vehicle. That changes everything. One of the first things that changes is changes communications because you can't -- the way to detonate bombs today is radio frequency, either a beeper, a cell phone. Police may or may not be on the same frequency and no one can transmit. And NYPD, with a bomb scare, we have something of that nature, we have to stay back at least minimum of 300 feet and no transmissions on your radio. So that would have caused some of the transmissions to stop.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Which, by did way, they didn't stand back. I did a 20 minute interview on Thursday with the Captain Canty and said kudos to the OPD for not hanging back because they knew what was going on. So, despite protocol, they were there by the bathroom with the hostages.

ZEINS: They sent in a robot and their robot as NYPD's has real time. It talks in real time and see pictures in real time. And they saw what was a smoke detector on the ground that looked like a device. So everything changes because if they do have explosives in there, you are in into a much bigger mass casualty incident.

BALDWIN: Mary Ellen, what did you make of the language the killer used?

MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT & SENIOR PROFILER: What I found interesting is he was very, very specific about what the message was that he wanted to put out there. I thought it was also very that he also provided misleading information or false information. And when we would see that kind of thing in the --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Hold on. The false information? You mean pertaining to the threats of explosives?

O'TOOLE: Right. The threats, had explosives and explosives in a vehicle, that's almost done to super size his already ominous persona but it also causes investigators often times to go in a wrong direction and to slow down law enforcement's response. Which it didn't do in this case but the fact that he was attempting to be really a puppet master we are the information providing.

BALDWIN: Wally, we know, calling up channel 13 in Orlando talking to a TV producer, pledged allegiance to that terror group. The fact that law enforcement chose to redact pieces of this. I choose not to say his name, I don't want to say his name, I don't want him to have even more notoriety.

ZEINS: Terrorists, one thing about terrorists, and in this particular situation, it falls right into it, they work on the three "M"s, money, manpower and media. He would get -- he is a martyr. He would get people to donate money to his cause. And the FBI did the exact right thing.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Speaker of the House of Representatives said it's preposterous, should not be redacted.

ZEINS: Why give him publicity, free publicity? We call this the theater of terror. It happened in Munich in the Olympics. The theater of terror is taking the hostages and had the hostages and the hostage takers, those were the stars. The military were the co-stars and the media they were over 3,000 media there, the producers and directors that directed this theater of terror. You don't want that word out and show throughout the world what he wants to say.

BALDWIN: Mary Ellen, do you think the FBI's doing the right thing redacting and not playing that audio?

O'TOOLE: I did. But there are two sides to it. Even from my perspective, it is very hard to give an opinion because it's based on just what was relayed. And it's also difficult because the statement that is this person made are self reported and a kind of assessment you have to be careful about but I think for me what was really stunning there's no empathy, so remorse or swearing. There's no yelling and ranting and raving from what we know what's released so far and goes to the state of mind and the personality and just how cold and callus that this person is.

BALDWIN: So cold to do that.

Mary Ellen O'Toole, thank you for your perspective.

Wally Zeins, thank you, as well. ZEINS: Thank you.

BALDWIN: I appreciate it.

[14:44:41] BALDWIN: Next, in the aftermath of Orlando, the politics here. Donald Trump says the U.S. should consider more racial profiling as a tool for law enforcement. We'll talk to a former special agent from the DEA for his take.

Also ahead, more on the breaking news of Donald Trump firing his campaign manager earlier today. Corey Lewandowski talked live here on CNN. You will hear his interview coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: In the wake of the deadliest mass shooting in history of United States, Donald Trump wants to bring back a controversial policing tactic, one he says even he hates, racial profiling. This is what he said when asked about it on "Face the Nation."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & CEO, TRUMP ORGANIZATION (voice-over): I think profiling is something we have to start thinking about as a country. And other countries do it. And you look at Israel and you look at others and they do it and they do it successfully. And, you know, I hate the concept of profiling. But we have to start using common sense. And we have to use -- you know, we have to use our heads.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: With me now, the author of "Rebuild the Dream," CNN political commentator, Van Jones, once a policy adviser to President Obama; and David Katz, the CEO of Global Security Group, who was once a senior special agent in the DEA and a federally certified firearms and tactical instructor.

Gentlemen, welcome.

David Katz, let me just begin with you. From a law enforcement perspective. You said racial profiling is an effective law enforcement tool and people misunderstand it. But let's just focus for the sake of this segment specifically on Donald Trump's words. You know, in a very general statement, saying the U.S. should consider thinking about profiling Muslims, any Muslim, whatever the situation. Would you agree with that?

DAVID KATZ, CEO, GLOBAL SECURITY GROUP & FORMER SENIOR SPECIAL AGENT, DEA & FEDERALLY CERTIFIED FIREARMS AND TACTICAL INSTRUCTOR: No. And what he's doing is he's playing into the hands of people who label that practice racial profiling. Look. It's -- what you have to consider is every aspect to an investigation. For example, when I was DEA agent, someone giving me information of a major cocaine trafficker and details and said he was a Colombian national or she was a Colombian national is, A, no importance or, B, important because Colombia because source country for cocaine? Nothing to do with the DNA of that person but the proximity or availability to cocaine. Those facts may be important. To say we'll racially profile, that evokes pulling over African-Americans just because they're driving a car while black. That's rejected and no one, no one is tacking about doing that. But to say that in no uncertain terms a person's ideology or country of origin or beliefs or practices, to say those are never important and can never be considered, that's always wrong.

(CROSSTALK)

Van, what do you think?

KATZ: He has to frame the argument better.

BALDWIN: Van, what do you think?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: First of all, I think it's interesting to talk about racially profiling in the context of mass shootings. The vast majority of people doing the mass shootings in America aren't Muslims at all.

BALDWIN: Young, white men.

[14:50:11] JONES: Exactly. Young white men. Turns out that even the people ideologically motivated, seven times more likely to be killed by a right wing extremist, a racist or an anti-government nut job, seven times more likely to be killed by that person --

(CROSSTALK)

KATZ: Is that ideology important to your consideration? Yes, it is.

JONES: Well, sure, sure.

KATZ: Sure.

JONES: I'm just saying before we even just go down the road of racially profile Muslims or not, if I came on tv and said let's start racially profiling white men, young white men loners with bowl hair cuts, people think that's a pretty unfortunate conclusion for you to come to. Certainly a better way to move forward and important to recognize we now have so much associated the religion of Islam with shooting. If a Christian shoots somebody, we don't say a Christian shot them. If it's a Muslim, we say a Muslim shot them. I think that's starting to muddy the waters.

KATZ: Even in support of the faith, in support of ISIS, my ideology? That doesn't make any sense.

JONES: That's --

(CROSSTALK)

KATZ: No. There are many --

(CROSSTALK) JONES: You're correct. You're correct. If someone is saying they're a part of an organization, a white person says I'm part of the Ku Klux Klan, a Muslim says I'm a part of ISIS, it's a different world.

(CROSSTALK)

KATZ: How about if I was a member of David Hale's church?

(CROSSTALK)

KATZ: -- that's something to consider? Yes, you would, wouldn't you? Same thing.

JONES: Sure, sure. Listen. You and I are probably in violent agreement here.

KATZ: I think we're making the same point.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Hold on.

Honestly, I want to keep quiet and listen to you both because this is fascinating. But use a concrete example. We know that the gunman went to the gun store, wanted body armor. You know? They did call the FBI because apparently and I read part of the transcript and saying he was speaking a language and wasn't German or Spanish and the behavior was mentioned, of perhaps Middle Eastern descent they were suspicious.

David Katz, to you, is that important from a law enforcement perspective?

KATZ: Yeah. I don't understand why we're having this discussion. You have suspicious behavior and a demographic. Look, take the 9/11 hijackers as one example. Were any of them, any of the 19 anything other than a Muslim male between 18 and 40? No. So we have an issue. And are there other terrorists and mass shooters? Of course. And whether they're ideologically motivated or they're some -- something unique about the background that might be important in an evidentiary sense, you consider everything.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: To Van's point, since many are also young white men, would you then --

(CROSSTALK)

KATZ: Most are psychologically disturbed, which is another discussion to have and he's correct.

BALDWIN: But you would profile them, as well?

KATZ: It's not profiling. We're using a term that is no profiling. We're going to profile all white men that may be active shooters at some point. No. You look for differences. In this case, you're not profiling all Muslims but you might profile somebody that says I am a Muslim and believe in this jihadi theology or I attend a mosque.

JONES: That person --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Van.

KATZ: Sorry.

JONES: Listen, I actually agree with you 100 percent.

KATZ: Yeah.

JONES: If someone by their conduct, declaring with a voice and words and who they're associating with puts them a category of suspicion, that's fine. When people hear the term racial profiling, they're reacting to an idea of putting somebody in a category just because they're Muslim.

KATZ: That's why I think -- yeah.

(CROSSTALK)

KATZ: That's why Donald Trump is making a mistake. Why go there?

JONES: Yeah.

KATZ: It makes no sense.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: OK. OK.

KATZ: Like any -- every other country in the world looks at the whole picture. You can't say that here because you will offend somebody. Part of the case, you say it. It makes no sense not to.

BALDWIN: You both agree on what Donald Trump said, and we're having the conversation because this is a man who wants to be the next president of the United States, and a lot of Americans, I think, you know, they agree with him and important to hear both perspective.

Thank you both, Van Jones, David Katz, on this notion of profiling.

KATZ: You're welcome.

[14:54:32] BALDWIN: Thank you.

More on the breaking news here. Donald Trump talking about and firing his controversial campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski. Corey talked to us here live on CNN with Dana Bash moments ago. We'll replay pieces of that interview coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: All right. 52 years, that is how long it's been since the city of Cleveland celebrated a professional sports championship. That streak is over. Lebron James and the teammates just landed in Cleveland with a championship trophy. There they are. A massive crowd there to help welcome home the champions. Cavs won game seven against the Golden State Warriors. Lebron was named the most valuable player. There's the entire finals. Even President Obama got caught up in the excitement. He's a hoops fan. And apparently stayed on Air Force One an extra half hour to catch the game of the game.

Let's go straight to Cleveland. Joining us is die-hard Cavs fan, Jason Herron.

Nice T-shirt. Congrats, my friend. And have you lost your voice?

JASON HERRON, CLEVELAND CAVALIERS FAN: Yes. I sound like everybody else in northeast Ohio. Voices, up all night celebrating. Fantastic night in the city.

BALDWIN: Jason, you famously burned that Lebron jersey when he dared leave you all for, you know, the beautiful Miami, Florida, in 2010. A, have you forgiven him? B, have you forgiven yourself?

HERRON: Yes, we forgave him immediately when he returned and, B, yes. We've all apologized. Lebron apologized. Dan Gilbert apologized for the letter he wrote and all back together and we won a championship. I mean, it's incredible. Last night, just being down and I probably high-fived half a million of my closest friends. It was one of the scenes and didn't matter your age or race. Everyone's hugging and high fiving. Fantastic. And we're no longer the mistake by the lake. We are believe-land.

BALDWIN: You know, I was looking back and the last time, you know, it was the Browns winning the sup, bowl last time you guys had the big win. Lyndon Johnson was president and the Beatles invaded America. You know, I know you were in the party in the streets last night. We are looking at some of your pictures. Tell me what that was like.

HERRON: It was -- I mean, we have lives. When the final buzzer sounded, you heard a joyous eruption of half a million people celebrating. I saw grown people crying in the streets. I mean, I -- this is the first time I haven't cried in 24 hours. Everyone was just embracing and hugging and it was just so awesome to see the entire city celebrate together and wait 52 years for this and the parade is Wednesday and that's another day we have been waiting for a long time for and another fantastic day in the city. It is a great day to be a Clevelander.

BALDWIN: Can I ask you your thoughts on Steph Curry? I mean, the guy is extraordinarily talented. When he threw the mouthpiece, what did you think?

HERRON: I was there on a season ticket holder. It was great. You know, the reason we won is we have Lebron James and they didn't. Steph Curry is a great player. Lebron is the king, the best in the league. After last night, I think he replaced Michael Jordan of greatest of time. He is a hometown kid and seeing the raw emotions last night thanking Cleveland and saying it was for us and meant the world and great to have him back and winning forever now. It is a great feeling.

BALDWIN: So speaking of winning, there is someone else who would like to win coming to your city soon. July 18th, if I'm correct, on top of my head here, this thing called the Republican National Convention, and the guy by the name of Donald Trump. That's -- when we talk about Cleveland, last couple of months, we talk about the Republican Party and Trump. Do you have any notes, any messages on winning, on Cleveland for those 50,000 people coming to town?

HERRON: Well, I'm a huge liberal. They won't let me huge 100 yards. Cleveland behaved themselves last night and I -- the city, we'll behave ourselves in the convention. It is the people from the outside we're a little worried about. And the police department will have it on lockdown. I know Clevelanders will behave. I hope everyone else coming in the city will be, too. We'll throw a great party.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Cleve-land. Cleve-land. I like it.

HERRON: That's right.

BALDWIN: Keep that party train rolling. Congratulations again.

Thank you so much.

HERRON: Thank you.