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WORLD RIGHT NOW WITH HALA GORANI
U.K. Parliament Remembers Jo Cox; Home District Remembers Murdered Parliamentarian; Polls Ahead Of Thursday Referendum Too Close To Call; Trump Fires Controversial Campaign Manager; ISIS Still Putting Up Right In Parts Of Fallujah; Campaigning Resumes Ahead Of Vote; Security, Economy, Immigration All Part Of Debate; Ai Weiwei Reflects On the Plight Of Refugees; Rio Pickpockets Eye Olympic Tourists. Aired 3-4pET
Aired June 20, 2016 - 15:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:11] HALA GORANI, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to a special edition of the program, THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. I'm Hala Gorani. We are live this
evening outside the Houses of Parliament in London.
Tonight paying tribute to one of their own, an empty seat and emotional scenes of remembrance in Britain's parliament as lawmakers gather to honor
Jo Cox. We'll go live to her constituency this hour as well.
Plus Donald Trump sends his campaign manager packing. What does it mean for the presumptive Republican nominee that he has fired his top adviser?
And I sat down with Chinese artist and activist, Ai Weiwei, what he thinks about the world's unprecedented migrant crisis this World Refugee Day.
We'll look at that as well and much more coming up in this special hour. This is THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.
We begin with those tearful remembrances and a level of emotion not seen in the British parliament for more than a quarter century. Lawmakers came
together in the House of Commons to pay their respects to their murdered colleague, Jo Cox. Becky Anderson has our story.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Under gray skies and dappled sunshine, the union flag was lowered above the British parliament.
Inside on the green leather benches the white rose of Yorkshire and the red rose of the Labour Party placed at the seat where Jo Cox used to sit.
In an extraordinary session of parliament, British lawmakers gathered to pay tribute to their extraordinary colleague. Led by Labour leader, Jeremy
Corbyn, they remembered Jo Cox, the humanitarian.
JEREMY CORBYN, BRITISH OPPOSITION LEADER, LABOUR PARTY: Jo Cox didn't just believe in loving her neighbor. She believed in loving her neighbor's
neighbor. She saw a world of neighbors. She believed every life counted equally.
ANDERSON: The politician.
DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: We pay tribute to a loving, determined, passionate and progressive politician who epitomized the best
of humanity and who proved so often the power of politics to make our world a better place.
ALISON MCGOVERN, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, LABOUR PARTY: When Jo spoke, Mr. Speaker, we all listened. Why? Because the principles she drew on in that
speech and in life is the simple idea that we have more in common than that which divides us.
ANDERSON: And their friend.
STEPHEN DOUGHTY, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, LABOUR PARTY: She once told me that she didn't do touchy-feely and I was being too emotional and we need to get
on with it and -- and we needed to sort out the campaign we were working on.
ANDERSON: There were words of comfort from another former co-worker at Oxfam and also a fellow MP.
[15:05:03]EILIDH WHITEFORD, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, SNP: I want to remember Jo Cox for how she lived, not how she died. And I want her to be a symbol
of the politics of hope, not the politics of fear.
ANDERSON: One of Jo Cox's best friends said that carrying on her work was the best way to remember her.
RACHEL REEVES, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, LABOUR PARTY: Combat and guard against hatred, intolerance, and injustice and serve others with dignity
and love and that's the best way that we can remember Jo and all that she stood for. But last let me say this, we'll go on to elect a new MP, but no
one can replace a mother.
ANDERSON: The family of Jo Cox watched from above in silent dignity out of sight of the cameras, a rare and emotional scene, MPs break into applause
in memory of a fellow parliamentarian. While the empty chair left by Jo Cox will be filled in time she will always have a place in British
politics. Becky Anderson, CNN, London.
GORANI: Meanwhile, the man charged with her stabbing and shooting will remain in custody until Thursday. Thomas Mair appeared via video link this
time in the Old Bailey today, the U.K. central criminal court.
He spoke once to confirm with his name when he was charged with murder and other crimes. He told the judge during the appearance on Saturday, "My
name is death to traitors and freedom for Britain." That was his statement court in Saturday morning.
His case is being heard under terrorism protocols in this country and is now assigned to a senior judge who handles terrorism cases. We'll continue
to follow the legal proceedings there.
Now Jo Cox was killed in her home district of Birstall. A 77-year-old man is being hailed as a hero for trying to help her during the attack.
Bernard Kenny was in fact stabbed as he went to Cox's aid.
He is now out of the hospital. His family released a statement thanking police and first responders and sending condolences to the Cox family as
Our Fred Pleitgen is in Birstall tonight and he is at the site of that memorial honoring Jo Cox -- Fred.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Hala. Even on day five after this tragic killing of Jo Cox. There are so many people
who actually are coming out here to this makeshift memorial.
We can pan around a little bit and you see that there is actually still quite a lot of people who are here. A sea of flowers that has been
building over the last four, five days continues to get bigger.
Even today as more and more people keep pouring in, and, of course, one of the things that we've seeing is that all these tributes by a lot of top
level politicians here in this country and to a lot of people here in this area it's a lot more personal than that.
A lot of them knew Jo Cox personally and a lot had very personal interactions with them because she was their member of parliament and
someone who championed a lot of causes here from this area, from this region.
If we just look in here you can see some of these letters that were written for her and one of them stands out that says, "My dear school friend, Jo,
who made the world a better place."
You can see how close some of those personal relationships were here in this very tight-knit community so the people here we've seen from having
been out here all day really are still very much struggling to come to terms with what happened.
Many of them still very sad and still very angry, also that possibly the perpetrator for all of this came from this community as well and it really
does appear as though they have not overcome.
There's no sense that this town is ready to continue to go back to some sense of normalcy. People here still very much still in shock because, of
course, so many of them knew Jo Cox so well because she was such an important figure here in this community, both with the local politics and
the community itself.
It was interesting. Yesterday we were at a memorial service for her at a local church here and there were letters written by some children who were
between 9 and 10 years old and many of them thanking her for coming and visiting their school two days before she was killed.
And saying they real he the feeling when they spoke to her that she understood where they were coming from even though she had what they said
was a position of superiority.
Of course, being a Member of Parliament, they still felt she had the empathy to actually get in and understand their issues, and I think that's
something that many people here feel as well. That sense of empathy that she had for the people here in this community -- Hala.
GORANI: All right. Fred Pleitgen in Birstall, thanks very much. The constituency of Jo Cox and you can see the number of flowers, of tributes
multiplying at that memorial in Birstall.
It's not clear just how much this murder might, could impact a very major decision facing Britons and in three days they will decide whether to stay
in or leave European Union in a referendum.
The most recent polls are simply too close to call, but the "remain" camp which Jo Cox supported ticked up in various polls over the weekend.
[15:10:05]And that has impacted the pound and the markets have been reacting very much. Here to explain how and why, our own Richard Quest,
CNN Money editor-at-large joins us live.
I'm looking at the pound now. Just about five days ago against the dollar it was under 1.41, Richard. Currently it's really almost at 1.47 so
clearly currency markets are saying they believe the "remain" camp will win on Thursday.
RICHARD QUEST, CNN MONEY EDITOR-AT-LARGE: Yes. We saw a 2 percent gain for sterling over the course of the day, and if you look over the course of
the year, you're seeing about -- still seeing roughly a 7.5 percent reduction since this time last year.
Hala, you're talking about a 12 percent shift from sterling over the course of the uncertainty over the past few weeks, and just look at that graphic,
really absolutely says it all, and, again, we saw it on equity markets, the European markets.
They all put on roughly 3 percent and it wasn't just the FTSE in London. It was the CAC Quarante in Paris and the Dax in Frankfurt and even the SMI,
and even markets as far apart as Istanbul and Tel Aviv all gained.
And the reason is, you know, the very reason that caused the -- the discombobulating, if you like, the uncertainty has now -- the markets are
suggesting, Hala, that they believe that uncertainty of result has shifted towards remain.
But I suggest that it is too soon for that sort of prognosis. We still have 48 hours of brutal campaigning to go and the gains you saw today could
evaporate if that shifts.
GORANI: Right, absolutely, especially if Britain votes. So what are economists, what are top sort of financial experts saying about what would
happen to the pound if there is a Brexit? Would it really completely nosedive? What are the predictions there?
QUEST: Well, we don't need to -- economists, the Bank of England, and in its last inflation report and last assessment specifically said -- the Bank
of England specifically said the pound could come under pressure and it could come under serious pressure if there was a Brexit.
We've also heard a prognosis that the market could lose up to 20 percent, the stock market of its value. Now the "leave" campaign says that all
these experts were noticeably wrong over the ERM.
They were noticeably wrong over euro membership and they have been noticeably wrong on the recession so the "leave" campaign's argument is
really basic and simple. Why believe the experts when they have been wrong so often before?
However, the British prime minister, David Cameron, he said last night if you're going to get into a car and the mechanic said the brakes aren't
working. The lights are dodgy. The car is not fit to drive, you wouldn't get in it.
So you have this very interesting situation where by and large the preponderance of economists all say that things will be grim if Brexit wins
and some people are basically saying we don't believe it, but market, Hala, the market today believes it's actually heading towards remain.
GORANI: Well, you can see what happens when a poll suggests that perhaps the leave camp might have some sort of edge. You see what happens. We'll
see you at the top of the hour on "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS." Richard Quest, thanks very much.
The polls causing that movement of the pound are as we mentioned too close to call. Let's discuss this with the managing director of Ipsos MORI,
Emma Hogan is also with me to discuss the state of this referendum. She is "The Economist" Europe correspondent. That magazine has come out in favor
of staying in the European Union for Britain. Thanks to both of you.
So let's talk a little bit about the polls. I mean, we are only a few days away and you've said to me, still based on everything that you've been able
to observe that we're still way too close to call at this stage.
BOBBY DUFFY, IPSOS MORI SOCIAL RESEARCH INSTITUTE: Yes. The last five polls that have come out over the weekend are two-percentage points of
either side of a dead heat and that's a classic definition of too close call.
So it's interesting that the markets, the book-makers, everyone is taking more comfort from that and it's basically based on the fact that on
referendum on these big decisions that people at the end switch back to the status quo.
The fear factor of leaving gets stronger as you get closer and they are factoring that in. If they are close to call now, as we right after --
GORANI: That's what markets are doing. They are saying when you're close usually on voting day that's when you could potentially count on those
undecideds or those on the fence to choose the safe option.
[15:15:02]DUFFY: That's right. That's been seen historically in various referenda over the past few years, most notably in Scotland from our
perspective where we had very prominent polling figures about this far out, but then it switched all the way back to a 45 vote for yes and a 55 for
staying for the Scotland to stay with the U.K.
GORANI: Why is it so close, though? Because, I mean, economists have come out and in their majority said it's Britain's best interest to remain
inside the E.U., politicians, all of Britain's allies in Europe, the United States all say it's in Britain's best interest. Why is it close inside of
EMMA HOGAN, EUROPE CORRESPONDENT, "THE ECONOMIST": I mean, it seems very puzzling, straight after Barack Obama came here and said, you know, if
Britain leaves the E.U. will be right at the back of the queue, and after that people thought that would be a decisive change.
People in Britain really do respect the president and what he says has a lot of impact here, but straight after that the polls then shifted to
So really it does show that these concerns have been driven by not just what people say and sort of what people in Britain have been thinking about
for a long time.
And indeed Michael Gove, one of the politicians, sort of leading the leave campaign, said people are fed up with experts, so the more people have come
out to say that this will be bad for the economy, it actually seems to have a reverse impact. People have sort of thought, well, what do these experts
GORANI: Do you see, for instance, with what's happening with Donald Trump in the United States, other parties to the right of center in Europe as
well, the idea that this anti-immigration message is resonating with a big part of the U.K. electorate, the driving force, the fuel of why the leave
campaign is doing so well?
HOGAN: I think so and you've seen that over the past couple of weeks. Leave have decisively shifted their campaign towards immigration and really
the problem is that British politicians over the past say five to ten years haven't really been making the case for immigration really.
David Cameron has not made the case for immigration and the idea that they are more likely to be educated and in jobs and less likely to claim
benefits. That hasn't been said publicly.
GORANI: But why not? Because I mean, when you look at the numbers, E.U. migrants do not hurt Britain's economy. Why is that message -- it's
distorted and it's making its way to the electorate in a distorted fashion? Why has that --
DUFFY: The trouble is people don't experience that macro impact. All they see is their day-to-day, the increased number of people in the GP, the
doctor surgeries, difficulty children getting houses. They don't see it as a net. It's a benefit because you don't live your life like that.
You experience it in the day to day and it has been a problem. We see that in our -- we've done studies on people's misperceptions and we massively
overestimate the proportion. U.K. population that's an E.U. immigrant.
We think it's 15 percent and it's only 5 percent and that's all kind of comes from this sense of being overrun and immigration coming and being out
of control within the U.K.
GORANI: And now those who are not necessarily decided, we're three days away and this is probably one of the most crucial votes in the history of
this country. How much the electorate still doesn't know based on your -- on your calculations which way to vote?
DUFFY: It's -- it's 15 percent will say they are undecided currently and that's enough to swing it when you've got a very tight race, but there are
also people switching their minds and that as much as the undecideds will be decisive in this.
What we're seeing is a bit of an increase in people saying that there's a personal risk, a personal risk to my finances from an exit vote.
GORANI: And because there is -- there is in the United Kingdom a group of the -- a subsection of the population that really is suffering
DUFFY: That's right.
GORANI: And some of them, I believe, that if outside of the E.U., the U.K. could set its own results and manage its own affairs that they could go
back to the way things were maybe.
DUFFY: That's right. I think the big divides that we have in society are much less than left or right and people who have benefited from the open
and people who haven't benefited from the open view of the economy and globalization. Lots of parallels with the U.S. and --
GORANI: Lots of parallels there. What happens if the U.K. Brexits? The whole European project, this has never been in the plan for the E.U.?
HOGAN: I think people in Europe are increasingly worried, right? I think when this first came about people were quite bewildered with the idea of
the U.K. leaving, but now there's a sense that there could be a domino effect.
So in surveys, France is even more euro skeptic than Britain is. And even if unlikely that France would actually leave the E.U., they may want to
have their own renegotiation and Italy is also seemingly euro skeptic.
There's a sense that this could not just affect the U.K. but the whole of the E.U., the whole of the project.
GORANI: All right. Thank you very much, Emma Hogan and Bobby Duffy. Thank very much for joining us. We really appreciate it on CNN with more
on this extremely crucial referendum in a few days which we will be covering.
[05:20:03]Speaking of politics and still to come tonight a major shake-up in Donald Trump's presidential campaign. We're learning remarkable details
about what led to the firing of his controversial campaign manager. He spoke to CNN just a few minutes ago and we'll have that for you after this.
Stay with us.
GORANI: Just a few months before the American presidential election, Donald Trump is changing course, looking for a new leadership to head his
campaign. The presumptive Republican nominee fired his campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski today.
While the move seems abrupt, we're learning that some Trump insiders, including Trump's own children, had reached a breaking point with
Ivanka Trump in fact played a pivotal role in the firing. Lewandowski put a positive face on his dismissal when he talked to CNN.
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: From your perspective what happened? Why were you fired?
COREY LEWANDOWSKI, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: I don't know. I don't know the answer to that, but what I know is what we've been able to achieve
in this election cycle has been historic. We had a candidate who in June of last year announced he would run for president with no elective office
in a field of 16 other people in the race plus him, who's gone on to do something historic.
Which was he got almost 14 million votes and fundamentally changed the way people look at politics and I'm proud to have been a small part of that and
running as the outsider of this campaign, which he has done, running against the corrupt Washington, D.C. establishment and correctness has been
something I've been proud to be a part of.
BASH: So you think it was appropriate for Donald Trump to make the change and let you go?
LEWANDOWSKI: What I think is that the voters have a binary decision coming up on Election Day. They can either vote for Hillary Clinton and her
liberal policies or they can put someone in place who is actually going to change Washington.
And I will do everything I can to make sure that the latter of those two happens which means Donald Trump is elected president. If I can do that
from inside the campaign, it's a privilege. If I can do that from outside the campaign that's also a privilege.
BASH: Did Mr. Trump himself also call you this morning and say I -- I don't mean to use the term, it is the term, you're fired?
LEWANDOWSKI: I had a nice conversation with Mr. Trump and I said to him it's been an honor and privilege to be a part of this, and I mean that from
the bottom of my heart.
GORANI: There you have it. The campaign manager for Donald Trump fired.
Let's get more now from CNN's Jason Carroll live at Trump Tower in New York. Jason, what is behind this? I mean, essentially in the polls if you
bring up the latest nationwide poll between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton holds a seven-point lead conducted between the 15th
and 19th of June.
His campaign has had issues with some of the comments he has made about a judge who was born in the U.S., but who is of Hispanic heritage and origin.
[15:25:01]Did all of this hurt him and is there a realization that his campaign is not going in the right direction right now?
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we'll have to wait and see, this has been a very unconventional campaign as you know, Hala. A
couple of things, though, after that insightful interview with Dana Bash.
You know, when Lewandowski says he doesn't know why he was fired. Clearly he must have some idea as to why he was let go. I mean, this is something
that's brewing for quite some time when it comes to Ivanka Trump and her husband, who also weighed in on this issue over the weekend saying it was
time for him to go.
Paul Manafort, Trump's campaign chairman, weighing on the issue saying Lewandowski has got to. The RNC Chairman Reince Priebus also weighing on
this issue as well saying Lewandowski has got to go.
So even though Lewandowski says I got along with all of these people, what he's doing, Hala, is he's playing the good soldier. Clearly this was a man
who signed on to the Trump campaign very early on, extremely loyal to Donald Trump and Donald Trump was extremely loyal to him.
I don't know if you remember this, but back in March when Lewandowski was accused of rough handling a female reporter, Trump was the one who stood by
him even when there were calls for this man to be moved aside. Trump said I just don't discard people.
So either he's not telling the truth, Lewandowski about why he was fired or he clearly does not have a clear perception about how he was perceived by
those who were working within the campaign.
GORANI: Very interesting. Jason Carroll, thanks very much at Trump Tower in New York with the latest on this twist in the Trump campaign.
For the first time we know precisely what the Orlando shooter said during his emergency calls to authorities. The FBI released personal transcripts.
You hear the gunman Omar Mateen admit to the shootings.
He speaks several times in Arabic and pledges allegiance to a specific organization. That organization's name is blacked out. You can guess what
it is. An FBI special agent said it was done to avoid further traumatizing those inside the nightclub. Now, of course, as you know, 49 people were
massacred. Dozens more injured during the shooting at Pulse Nightclub on June 12th.
Quote, "They have nothing and they need everything," unquote, that warning from the United Nations about yet another humanitarian crisis in Iraq.
The U.N. says 84,000 people just about have fled Falluja since a government offensive to retake the city from ISIS began last month. Some families had
to walk for days to safety, dodging ISIS snipers and minefields to reach makeshift camps.
But those camps are overflowing forcing some families to sleep in the open. The Iraqi flag may now be flying in the heart of Falluja, but ISIS is still
putting up a fight in some parts of the city.
Senior international correspondent, Ben Wedeman, is in Baghdad. So how close are these forces to retaking the whole city, and what does it mean
for these desperate people who are displaced once again?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it does appear that the Iraqi forces have really isolated ISIS in the northern sector of
Falluja. They have taken about three-quarters of the city to this -- parts of the city to the south, a sliver to the north and it's just ISIS in
Now, we heard an Iraqi officer telling Iraqi television that among the fleeing civilians they have captured in his number is 1,086 ISIS
sympathizers or members among the fleeing civilians.
And what we understand is left are really just those Arab and non-and foreign fighters who cannot escape or tried to escape among civilians and
appear to be willing to fight to the death.
But so far the Iraqi forces have made fairly good progress certainly compared to their operation when they took Ramadi at the end of last year
and the beginning of this year, but as far as the civilians go, this is a whole different part of this situation that has got the Iraqi authorities
quite stumped with how to deal with it.
Keep in mind that over the last three days, Hala, 30,000 people have fled from Falluja. Now there's a series of camps set out -- set up around the
city, but they simply aren't equipped.
The lucky ones are in tense and we hear that there's as many as three families per tent. Others at this point are simply having to stay outside
and many of them are already weakened from malnutrition and having stayed in Falluja for months with very little to eat.
And the Iraqi authorities are also very concerned that given that ISIS while it occupied Falluja didn't have any sort of vaccination campaign,
that there's a danger of on outbreak of cholera and typhoid -- Hala.
[15:30:01] GORANI: Well, just seemingly endless hardship for people in that part of Iraq. Thanks very much, Ben Wedeman, live in Baghdad for us.
This is THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. Coming up, should they stay or should they go? I will speak to two people on very different sides of the U.K.'s E.U.
Plus Chinese artist, Ai Weiwei, takes up the cause of migrants struggling to reach Europe. What he has to say about it. My interview is also coming
up. We'll be right back.
GORANI: Welcome back, everybody. This is a special edition of THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. I'm Hala Gorani live in London across from the Houses of
Parliament. Here is a look at this hour's top stories.
British lawmakers return to parliament early today to pay tribute to their colleague, Jo Cox. She was killed in her constituency last week. Prime
Minister David Cameron called Cox a loving, determined, passionate, and progressive politician while Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, called for a
kinder, gentler politics in the wake of her murder.
A big shake-up in Donald Trump's campaign just a few months before with the U.S. election. The presumptive Republican nominee fired his controversial
campaign manager today. Corey Lewandowski told CNN he doesn't know why he was dismissed, but CNN has learned that Trump's children had reached a
breaking point with him and wanted him gone.
On Monday, the FBI released partial transcripts of the 911 calls made by the Orlando shooter. Omar Mateen is heard admitting to the killings and
pledging his allegiance to a terrorist group. Now the name of the group widely reported to be ISIS was blacked out of these transcripts.
Let bring you the latest on an emotional day here in Westminster. The British parliament was recalled for MPs to pay tribute to their colleague
Jo Cox. Two roses were placed on the seat where she normally sat.
Meanwhile, the man charged with Cox's murder appeared in a court via a video link. Thomas Mair is his name. He was remanded in custody until at
A 77-year-old man who was hurt while trying to assist Jo Cox has been released from the hospital today. Bernard Kenny suffered a serious injury
to his abdomen in the attack.
Let's hear from two people on different sides of this debate. Peter Whittle is a member of the London Assembly and is UKIP's culture spokesman.
He represents the "leave" camp.
On "remain" side, I'm joined by Sarah Ludlord, the liberal Democrat's parliamentary spokesperson on Europe. Thanks to both of you for being with
[15:35:09]So Sir, first, I'll start with you. Why support the position that Britain should leave the E.U. and just launch itself into the unknown
when things seemed to be working pretty well for it inside this union, why?
PETER WHITTLE, UKIP CULTURE SPOKESMAN: Well, because it's not working well inside this union, first of all, and it's not the unknown either. I think
that when people talk about the unknown, they are -- this campaign has been characterized by shocking scare mongering on the part of people who want us
I would say to you it's quite simple. We want to have our sovereignty back, which means we make our own laws and we want to be able to control
our own borders and indeed we want to make our own trade with the rest of the world.
All of those things we cannot do while in the E.U. The last time we had a referendum people were told that it was just an economic community and they
weren't told that it was going to be --
GORANI: Sarah Ludlord, how do --
SARAH LUDLORD, LIBERAL DEMOCRAT SPOKESWOMAN FOR EUROPE: The remain campaign unites six parties, trade unions, business, scientists, academics,
medics because we believe that being in the E.U., staying in the E.U. is better for Britain's prosperity, security and influence in the world, and
this referendum really is about what country we want to be.
Do we want to be open rather than closed, internationalists rather than isolationists and indeed I'm afraid it has become clear that we need to
choose whether we want to be a country, which is xenophobic and fosters hatred and racism --
GORANI: Are you saying the leave campaign has used xenophobia, fear of migrants?
LUDLORD: Yes, a poster last Thursday which one of the leading conservative leave campaigners, Michael Gove, a cabinet minister yesterday said made him
shudder. Unfortunately, he didn't say that when the post first came out last Thursday, but it was -- it had a column --
GORANI: Let's talk about ths poster.
LUDLORD: -- and talked about breaking point.
GORANI: I need to describe to our viewers what this poster showed. It showed a group of Syrian migrants in Slovenia so not much to do with the
WHITTLE: It says on the poster that the E.U. is failing Europe. It was quite clear.
LUDLORD: (Inaudible) breaking point.
WHITTLE: And he said the E.U. is failing Europe. If you think that immigration is not a concern of the majority of people here, then you're
LUDLORD: It is a concern. It is a concern --
WHITTLE: If you would let me to finish.
LUDLORD: There are ways to discuss it and not discuss.
WHITTLE: No, you would rather not discuss it at all. That's the truth and that's the problem. People have not been allowed to discuss this.
GORANI: Do you believe immigration is a problem in the U.K., and by that what do you mean? Do you mean immigration from non-E.U. migrants or E.U.
LUDLORD: I think it is definitely a subject and nobody has to suppress discussion of migration. May I speak?
WHITTLE: Of course, they have.
LUDLORD: Thank you very much. Yes, we do have high net migration. That is positive for our economy.
LUDLORD: But it does raise concerns about pressure on public services and the problem is that successive governments have not been nimble enough to
switch resources into areas under pressure.
GORANI: Does E.U. migration add or subtract from GDP growth in the U.K. -- because so many calculations have some to the conclusion that E.U.
migration is good for Europe, not bad for Europe.
WHITTLE: If you're talking in terms of economic growth that is not basically to take account of the fact of the quality of life. The fact of
the matter is that there are 300,000 net people coming to the U.K. whilst we are in the E.U. and everyone admits this and we cannot control the level
of migration. That is why it is of such concern to so many people.
LUDLORD: E.U. movement is a two-way street because there are two million Brits living in other E.U. --
WHITTLE: That is a lie. You are lying.
LUDLORD: It would be quite good if you would stop interrupting me.
WHITTLE: But you're lying.
LUDLORD: That is not a lie and they live there and have resident rights and access to health care by virtue of the E.U. law.
GORANI: What is the accurate number?
WHITTLE: It's more like a million, not 2 million, first of all.
GORANI: What do you tell the million Brits who live in the E.U. if Brexit actually happens, come home?
WHITTLE: No, of course not. Because this thing -- no, because this thing is not retrospective.
LUDLORD: You have no idea. It's jumping the cliff frankly. You have no feasible plan. You cannot give any guarantees of what happens next
including to the individuals who are living in other E.U. countries.
WHITTLE: The problem is, Sarah --
LUDLORD: It is a complete vacuum where --
GORANI: How do you respond to that? You say it's not launching into the unknown but by definition it is because it hasn't happened yet.
WHITTLE: The "remain" campaign has no faith in Britain. This is being displayed completely by Sarah. She says that basically there is nothing.
We're in a void and they have no confidence in the British --
LUDLORD: You are in a void, your leave campaign.
WHITTLE: And in fact, this is why we're ahead now in the polls.
GORANI: How do you respond that you have no faith in the E.U.?
LUDLORD: The patriotic choice is for Britain to lead and not to leave the E.U. We have enormous assets and strengths in this country and we need to
play for what's right --
GORANI: Why is it --
LUDLORD: Because it is best for our safety and our prosperity and our security.
WHITTLE: It's not.
GORANI: But how do you back that --
LUDLORD: First all, all reputable economists as well the IMF and OCD and so on have said we'll take a big economic trade. It will hit trade and
growth and jobs.
Secondly, the cooperation that we have in Europe fighting crime and terrorism is extremely important. Alongside NATO, which does hard military
security, the E.U. majors in fighting crime and terrorism. That's an enormous bonus that we need to safeguard.
GORANI: For safety and security and economic prosperity remain makes sense. Why would you dispute that?
WHITTLE: What Sarah said that was said almost the same words when we were being told that if we didn't join the euro, the single currency, didn't
join that 16 years ago we would be friendless.
We would be economically up the kivel (ph) without a paddle and told everything would be bad. There's nobody here now who would actually say we
should join the euro. It's been a disaster.
You ask the people in Greece or Spain and whether euro or Europe has been a success for them with 59 percent of young people unemployed. This is
LUDLORD: This referendum is not about the euro. We're not going to join the euro.
GORANI: What is it about?
LUDLORD: It is about staying in the E.U. We're not in the euro and we're not going to be joining the euro.
WHITTLE: You would have said we should be in the euro.
GORANI: For the leave camp, is it not about mainly been about immigration, national identity, about -- how do you respond to allegations that it's
xenophobia and fearing of foreigners stirring up that type of anti- immigrant --
WHITTLE: This country is remarkably welcoming country and always has been, but the fact is that everyone including the head of the "remain" campaign,
who had kept very quiet I have to say now said that if we were to come out of the E.U., wagers for workers would actually rise. And since he said
that he let that cat out of the bag --
GORANI: Sarah, I started with Peter so I'll end with Sarah, last word.
LUDLORD: Well, the impacts of migration on wages is very small. We have essential services being -- like the National Health Service, which have
great contribution from E.U. doctors and nurses. We do need to deal with the pressures it puts locally, but altogether, if you belong to the E.U.
single market, which is good for our economy, free movement to people as part that package.
GORANI: We've got to leave it there. Peter Whittle of UKIPS and Sarah Ludlord, thank you so much for joining us on CNN. We will be back after
And by the way, some news just in on the killing of Jo Cox before we move on. A web page set up in the wake of the MP's killing has raised more than
1 million British pounds.
Over 30,000 people have donated to the page which is raising money for charities chosen by her family so that is news just coming into us there.
A tragedy, but as you can see there are people being very, very generous with their donations.
This is THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. The Chinese artist, Ai Weiwei, has been using his art to comment on the migrant crisis. My conversation with him is
coming up next. We'll be right back.
GORANI: Today is WORLD REFUGEE DAY, and as Europe struggles with its migrant cries, a new U.N. report shows the number of displaced people
worldwide has surpassed 65 million for the first time ever. That staggering number soared due to conflicts mainly in Syria, Afghanistan and
Among them almost 100,000 unaccompanied or separated children. The U.N. says a majority of the externally displaced are finding shelter outside of
More than a million migrants entered Europe last year and many are still risking their lives to get here by making the dangerous journey across the
Chinese activist and artist, Ai Weiwei, has used his art to reflect their plight. His latest exhibit is now in display in Cambridge, England. I
spoke about how his art and how his concern for migrants plays in to what he does.
AI WEIWEI, ARTIST: When I see those people come from Syria, come -- directly come from the ocean, from the boat, children, women, you know,
pregnant lady, and elderly people, 80, 90 years old, just trying to escape. Everybody would be shocked to look at say this kind of situation and
anybody, you know, doesn't what kind of background, if you're on the side, you'll be shocked.
GORANI: And this informed your art. I mean, there were some pieces that had were provocative such as the Concert Hall in Berlin wrapped in life
jackets and then you had some that were controversial. You recreating the Allen Kurdi, that poor little Kurdish boy who was washed up on shore in
Turkey. You posed as him. Why do you think this is provoking in people such a strong reaction?
WEIWEI: For me as an artist, you use the image not only to provoke him, but also to put yourself in the same condition so you can really sense the
condition. I really believe you have to be there. That's why I travel to so many locations like Lebanon, Jordan, and Israel. You have to be there
and you have to meet the people. You have to interview people and you have to do all those -- follow them to say, well, what kind of condition they
GORANI: And similarly when you handed out the thermal blankets or asked people at the Concert Hall even in Berlin to wear the thermal blankets that
refugees are given when they arrive on the coast, all of this part of an effort of achieving what as an artist --
WEIWEI: We have to recognize we're part of a society. We are part of the problem. We are part of tragedy and to put ourselves in being involved and
to make a -- people around us to be conscious about it and discuss about this. I think that's all we can do.
GORANI: You went back to China for only the second time since authorities gave you back your passport last summer just a few days ago. What is it
like going back to China as really essentially one of the world's most renowned artists, going back to your homeland?
WEIWEI: It's not so many people know me there, and --
GORANI: Not so many people know you?
WEIWEI: Maybe most -- I'm most popular among the police and the undercover police and I -- they watch me and -- and, you know, you feel sad. It's a
country you care about and people you care about and so many things can be changed and made better, but at the same time you're always being kept
GORANI: Why do you go back?
WEIWEI: My mom is there.
GORANI: I read that you don't want to feel like you've abandoned China?
[15:50:00]WEIWEI: No, I don't want to -- I don't want to give either party or whoever to think, you know, I'm scared or I'm not, you know. I just
tried to escape which is not true.
GORANI: Now in the past, some of the things you've done, not just the Allen Kurdi is just one of the latest examples, but you know, smashing a
very expensive Chinese vase or for instance, taking everyday objects and turning them into pieces of art. I do wonder what is the process, how does
it work? Do you kind of one day think here's an idea? Let me explore that idea.
WEIWEI: I never do that way.
GORANI: How does it work?
WEIWEI: It's so casual and the work is almost like not even artwork, you know. I never really always consciously think I'm an artist or making art.
It doesn't needs setup.
GORANI: It just pops in your consciousness.
WEIWEI: Yes. I think life is very short, and we always change our mind, you know. If we think too deep, we cannot do anything.
GORANI: Do you ever think of something and say that's inappropriate? I'm not going to go there. Has that ever happened?
WEIWEI: No. I will never do that, and even I think -- because, you know, our art also challenges the mainstream and established ideas. So as long
as you don't offend somebody or you don't --
GORANI: But you have offended some people.
WEIWEI: Well, I think -- I may offend their moral standard, but I don't really touch them. They don't have to look at them at work.
GORANI: There you have it, Ai Weiwei. We'll be right back from London. Stay with us.
GORANI: In just a few weeks, the Summer Olympics kick off in Brazil. Athletes and sports fans are gearing up for the excitement and they are not
the only ones. Petty thieves are also ready. Nick Paton Walsh has met one of them.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The 5:00 p.m. rush, sundown empties the beaches and streets and Copacabana
where Olympic tourists will be lured by volleyball and hot sand. Their phones, jewelry sparkle, a sea of opportunity for this man, one of Rio's
army of street robbers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): More or less five stolen. That's a good day's work.
WALSH: We'll call him Pedro. His crimes aren't sins, he says, just a way to make a living, and the Olympics will be boom time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Very, very busy time. It's going to be good, but at the same time you'll have a lot of tourists. You'll
have a lot of thieves as well with jewelry, watches, people might go to the police station, but when it's just a phone, many don't even go to the
police. They get on a ship, on a plane and they leave.
WALSH: He prefers to work in a pair, approach from behind and show me his move and have a partner bump into my front. He shows us where he
immediately takes a stolen phone. He snaps the sim card and not touching the phone's buttons.
This market, mostly legal resellers, brims with traders hawking very cheap phones on the corner. And some, he says, can wipe and reset a phone for
him for about $10.
[15:55:03]In fact, one told me they don't need passwords to reset a phone at all. Pedro then sells the clean phone on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): If you can get the new launch, a success, all the iPhones are guaranteed money. You don't have it at home
for even a day. You can steal it in an hour, two hours later, you'll already have the money in your pocket and it's far away.
WALSH: It's a brazen industry, caught on amateur camera here in the center. Opportunism and thuggary combined. A broken phone no use here and
returned. Rio police have set up a high-tech CCTV Center they hope will encourage people to report crimes and maybe let them see culprits in
action. A grainy view of a beautiful city's hard-earned trade.
(on camera): You do realize you're potentially ruining somebody's holiday, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I don't really think about that because if I did, no one would do it. When it's time to go and steal, you
always think these are the people with more money than those here.
WALSH (voice-over): Pedro's advice, to not get robbed by him. Put your phone in your front pocket and pay attention when you use it and check it
if someone bumps into you. Now it's up to you to decide if he's left something out. Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Rio De Janiero, Brazil.
GORANI: All right, this has been THE WORLD RIGHT NOW live from outside of London's Houses of Parliament. They are setting up platforms and live shot
areas for Thursday.
And this is a live shot as MPs today paid tribute to slain colleague Jo Cox. Do stay with CNN for full coverage of that story and the U.K.
I'm Hala Gorani. Thanks for watching. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next from London.
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: It is one of those days that's quite extraordinary on the New York Stock Exchange where the clapping gets
under way as always, 30 seconds until we get to the closing bell. But the market has been up very sharply throughout the course of the day and the
reason is quite simply Brexit.
Let's hear the bell. I've got a good feeling about this. I think we'll have a robust, firm gavel to bring trading to a close. Hit the gavel, sir.
I could not have been more --