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Gun Control Legislation Fails; Trump Questioning Clinton's Faith?; Florida Mass Shooting Investigation. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired June 21, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:03]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Evan, let's begin with the plane tickets.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, these were plane tickets that were bought for him to go from West Palm Beach to San Francisco. If you remember, we previously reported that he had -- I think the family has he has family members in the Bay Area.

So, that was the plan in July. But we also have learned that the gunman went to the Pulse nightclub earlier on Saturday night, and then left before returning to carry out this attack as the gay nightclub was preparing to close early Sunday morning.

Investigators believe that he may have been just simply checking out the security of the club. The FBI has been using surveillance video, cell phone tracking, along with witness interviews, to build a timeline of his whereabouts on the night of the attack.

But they are still working to determine what he was doing for roughly a two-hour period between when he left the club and then when he returned. We -- as we mentioned, he bought these plane tickets. So, the question that investigators are still trying to figure is, if he knew he was planning this attack, why did he make these travel plans?

We know the wife has told the investigators that when the gunman left the home on Saturday, Saturday evening, in Fort Pierce, which is about a two-hour drive away from Orlando, he was angry and he was carrying a bag with his guns. And she said she pleaded with him not to leave, grabbing him by the arm.

She tried multiple times, Brooke, during the evening, trying to send him text messages and trying to call him, and there was no response.

BALDWIN: OK. With that, let me just bring in our panelists.

Evan Perez, thank you so much, our justice correspondent.

I have with me now Juliette Kayyem, CNN national security analyst, and Harry Houck, CNN law enforcement analyst and retired NYPD detective.

So, every day, there's new sort of drips and drabs as far as what we know about him. And just beginning with you and this notion of buying these plane tickets the day before, you know, I go back to, did he walk into that club knowing he was going to die?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: It's a great question.

It's one I have gone back and forth on.

BALDWIN: Yes.

KAYYEM: There's evidence both ways.

The fact that he wanted to buy body armor, remember that part of it?

BALDWIN: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

KAYYEM: So, he wanted to protect himself, and that at one stage in the ticktock of what happened, they -- the officers come in as he's trying to exit the front door. He has no notes he leaves behind. And now he's bought plane tickets for the next day. It does make me think that he maybe had parallel plans. Right?

(CROSSTALK)

KAYYEM: One is, he was going to get away and never make his great announcement to the world, great to him.

BALDWIN: Right.

KAYYEM: Or the other was that he was going to get trapped and then have this statement about ISIS and jihad for the press and others.

But he didn't seem to have a sort of farewell moment, at least with his family. Makes me think that he did at least think he could get away with this.

BALDWIN: What do you think?

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, he probably had a backup. This was probably his backup. In the event I do get out of there, then I have got the airline tickets, get my family and we get out of Dodge. That's most likely what happened.

What is really interesting, though, is the fact that he -- he had come to that location first and he made sure he got his wristband.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HOUCK: All right?

BALDWIN: Checked out security.

HOUCK: Right.

Well, the reason why he did this is so now, when he's coming back later, two hours later with his weapons, he's not going to get stopped at the door. He will just show his wristband. He will walk right in and then he will be able to do his attack there.

So, it was pretty well planned out there. But, now, where was he for two hours? That's the big question.

BALDWIN: Wait. Why do you think he gave two bleeps about a wristband if he's walking in with a mega-assault weapon?

HOUCK: Because this was in his plan in his head. I'm assuming that he probably walked in with the weapon somehow hidden underneath his shirt, underneath a jacket, something like that.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: We still don't know. We still don't know.

HOUCK: And then he don't have to confront security going in. OK. Let me see your identification, that kind of thing. Just show the wristband. Back in the club, nightclub days, back in the day, that's all it is. You walk right in.

BALDWIN: Sure. Sure.

I'm still thinking -- And I was talking to the fire lieutenant. They even had -- the fire department around the corner had a call. And they're mindful of the fact that they could have been in there responding to some patron when this man was in there, because we still don't -- there are gaps in the ticktock.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: So, we don't know, once he went in, left and came back, there's a two-hour time frame. We don't how long he was in there among those who he would later murder.

HOUCK: Right.

(CROSSTALK)

KAYYEM: Right. But what we do know is that his wife had constructive knowledge that something very, very bad was going to happen. You know, she's pleading with her husband. She knows.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Even that night, texting, calling.

(CROSSTALK)

KAYYEM: She will say she didn't know. She knows. She knows he's going to do something horrible, absolutely horrible. And there's no evidence of a phone call.

There's no evidence of a phone call to police. There's nothing.

BALDWIN: From the wife?

(CROSSTALK)

KAYYEM: From the wife.

(CROSSTALK)

HOUCK: And her telling the police that, you know, she didn't know what he was going to do, then why were you pleading with him when he was walking out the door at night? A two-hour drive away, what is he, going duck hunting?

KAYYEM: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: What about also though another piece of this I come back to, the fact that when you read some of the transcripts and you read a little bit about the conversation with the police negotiators, it's all about Islamic State and jihad and ISIS.

HOUCK: Right.

BALDWIN: And none of it is about the LGBT community. Maybe there's more in the conversations that we're just not privy to, but...

[15:05:02]

KAYYEM: No. I don't think -- no, they would have released that if it was.

HOUCK: Right.

KAYYEM: I don't think we should view those as mutually exclusive.

He was a complicated, narcissistic mass murderer, who also was an Islamic terrorist. Right? Those are consistent in the sense of he -- as I like -- he was buying hate and whoever was selling it was -- he liked. Right? And at this moment, he adopted -- or in the later moments, he adopted ISIS.

HOUCK: Right.

KAYYEM: What we haven't seen is any proof, though -- this is from a counterterrorism perspective -- of a very big social media by him with ISIS. I'm waiting to see from the FBI.

BALDWIN: You mean communications?

KAYYEM: Or even just him doing passive searches.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: We know that he was watching beheading videos.

KAYYEM: Right, but nothing like engagement of any kind. It's one thing to watch passively.

I'm sort of curious if they found anything more active.

HOUCK: I think he had a conflict in his brain between -- there's been information out there that he might be gay or have -- might have gay tendencies. I think he might have had a conflict in his brain regarding ISIS and how they hate gays and everybody else and how he wants to be a member of ISIS.

And this was probably why he picked this specific target himself. I think that's his reasoning behind that.

BALDWIN: We have no idea and we may never fully know why he ever did this.

HOUCK: We won't.

BALDWIN: Juliette, Harry, thank you both so much.

Now to this. All right, to the race for the White House. Donald Trump set to go on the offensive after weeks of playing defense. That includes this new fund-raising stunt, a massive speech today.

But, today, it's all about Hillary Clinton's words in Columbus, Ohio, minutes ago speaking there. Secretary Clinton hit the billionaire businessman on an issue that is known to be his strength, the economy.

And that's not just according to Donald Trump. It's according to a brand-new CNN/ORC poll out this morning. We will get to that here in just a moment.

But, first, I want you to listen to Hillary Clinton explain point by point by point why she thinks Donald Trump would not just be bad for the economy, but she thinks he will be dangerous.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You might think that because he has spent his life as a businessman, he'd be better prepared to handle the economy.

Well, it turns out he's dangerous there, too, just like he shouldn't have his finger on the button, he shouldn't have his hands on our economy.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: Now, I don't say that because of typical political disagreements. Liberals and conservatives say Trump's ideas would be disastrous. The Chamber of Commerce and labor unions. Mitt Romney and Elizabeth Warren. Economists on the right and the left and the center all agree Trump would throw us back into recession.

He's written a lot of books about business. They all seem to end at chapter 11.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: Go figure. And over the years, he intentionally ran up huge amounts of debt on his companies and then he defaulted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's go straight to Sara Murray at Trump Tower.

Make no mistake.

Again, he is responding. I'm sure he will get his own massive applause lines tomorrow in his big speech. And he's already responded to Secretary Clinton on Twitter today.

SARA MURRAY, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Brooke.

Of course, Donald Trump is going to be giving a speech attacking Hillary Clinton, but, as for today, he's taken to his favorite method of communication, Twitter, and unleashed a storm against Hillary Clinton. Here's just a sampling for you, responding to her speech saying: "Hillary defrauded America as secretary of state. She used it as a personal hedge fund to get herself rich. Corrupt, dangerous, dishonest."

Brooke, we seem to see Donald Trump there sort of linking Hillary Clintons' tenure as secretary of state to some of the contributions the Clinton Foundation she got from foreign governments.

So, I think we can expect to hear much more about that from him tomorrow.

BALDWIN: What about these new poll numbers? CNN/ORC out this morning with all kinds of poll numbers, including Hillary Clinton's slight, but spread -- five-point spread over Donald Trump. But he also does quite well when it comes to issues Americans care about, terrorism and the economy.

MURRAY: Well, the top line is obviously good news for Hillary Clinton, right?

You always want to be leading in the polls. And that's what we're seeing in our new CNN/ORC poll, has Hillary Clinton at 47 percent. It has Donald Trump trailing by five points at 42 percent.

[15:10:03]

But when you dig into the details, you really get a better sense of why we saw Hillary Clinton out there today making her pitch on the economy and making her case that Donald Trump is ill-prepared to run the U.S. economy, that he is not as successful of a businessman as you might think.

When you dig into these numbers about who voters view as better on the economy, Trump actually bests her. He's at 51 percent, compared to Hillary Clinton at 43 percent. So, that's a pretty decent spread there, Brooke, pretty clear that she is going to need to make her case to the American public that she is the best person to steer the economy. Otherwise, that's the kind of thing that could threaten those top-line

numbers going forward.

BALDWIN: On the economy, Sara Murray, thank you very much.

On the economy here, while both presumptive presidential nominees are promising to improve the economy, there is the potential obviously the situation could get worse. History shows Americans are overdue for some belt-tightening.

Here is our chief business correspondent, Christine Romans -- Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, the next president of the United States will almost certainly face a recession.

It's not guaranteed. But the American economy has been growing now for seven years. The typical expansion since World War II has been around five years. It's the nature of the business cycle. Expansions and contractions. This expansion has been longer than usual.

Now, no one knows when it will happen, just that it will. Business leaders and economists agree the next president will have to work quickly with Congress right out of the gate to make policies that support economic growth and blunt this overdue recession.

Now, the business world would like immigration reform and tax reform, allow more skilled workers, more agricultural workers, cut the corporate tax rate by a lot. Hillary Clinton has proposed a huge infrastructure spending plan, building roads, bridges, tunnels, modernizing airports, a plan many economists embrace. Donald Trump has proposed a major tax cut for everyone. Lower tax is a cornerstone, of course, of Republican economic policy.

But without companion spending cuts, tax think tanks says Trump's tax plan would add to the deficit -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right, Christine, thank you.

Let me want bring in the author of this book "The Savage Truth on Money." Nationally syndicated financial columnist Terry Savage is with us now. Also here, Ryan Williams, who used to serve as spokesman for Mitt Romney's presidential campaign.

Welcome, welcome to both of you.

And, Terry, I defer to you on sort of all things economy and what we're hearing as far as a potential recession under whichever potential administration. Do you think -- we just heard Christine report on that. Hillary Clinton said there will be a recession if Donald Trump is elected president. What do you think?

TERRY SAVAGE, FINANCIAL COLUMNIST, "THE CHICAGO SUN-TIMES": Well, we would all like think we repeal the business cycle and growth will be here permanently. History says that is not so. Recently, we have had a longer period of time between recessions.

After 1991, we went 10 years. That was pretty much the longest in modern times without a recession. And, you know, there's an interesting argument about whether we must have a recession and just how destructive it would be.

After all, the numbers show that coming out of the last recession these last seven years, we have had really relatively slow growth, relatively slow job creation. So, there's an argument that says, even if we had a recession, and probably we will in the coming years, that it won't be as devastating because we're not coming off an economic boom right now, that's for sure.

BALDWIN: So, Ryan, on the politics of all of this, make no mistake, you don't like neither of them, Trump nor Clinton. But when it comes to the economy and the next four years, who do you feel more comfortable with?

RYAN WILLIAMS, REPUBLICAN CAMPAIGN CONSULTANT: Well, I think your poll today show that voters are more comfortable with Trump about this point.

BALDWIN: But what about you?

WILLIAMS: I'm listening to both candidates right now, but I think that Trump certainly has real business experience in the private sector. I think voters like that.

Hillary Clinton, someone who spent her career in government, who has voted to raise taxes on middle-class Americans, who has a pretty bad record on economic issues in the Senate, and I think that's why voters, despite their misgivings for both candidates, seems to trust Trump more on economic issues. And if this election does focus on economic issues, I think that really plays into Trump's wheelhouse and will be beneficial for his candidacy.

BALDWIN: Would you, Ryan Williams, consider voting for Hillary Clinton?

WILLIAMS: No.

BALDWIN: No way, no way, no way, no way?

WILLIAMS: No way, no. Absolutely not.

BALDWIN: OK.

Let me play this piece. As we were listening to Hillary Clinton speaking earlier, you know, Trump's big mantra is America first. Hillary Clinton pointed that out and this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: Trump's own products are made in a lot of countries that aren't named America. Trump ties are made in China, Trump suits, in Mexico, Trump furniture, in Turkey, Trump picture frames in India, and Trump barware in Slovenia.

And I could go on and on, but you get the idea.

And I'd love him to explain how all that fits with his talk about America first.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:15:03]

BALDWIN: All right, Terry, so that's obviously one of the many of Secretary Clinton's slams on Trump today.

But on the flip side, one could argue he has a lot of money, millions and millions in real estate properties here, right here in America, and that he simply is a smart businessman and as a businessman he has products overseas as well. How do you think that will resonate will Americans?

SAVAGE: This is going to be very interesting, because it's no wonder that more smart businesspeople aren't going into politics.

The decisions that might make sense for a business are not necessarily the ones that are popular for people. But Trump has talked out of both sides of his mouth on this issue, threatening a trade war, threatening China. And there are currency policies which China actually its currency is stronger now. It's not weakening its currency.

So, he's going to have a tough time convincing Americans that a trade war would be good for them, when it's bad for his business and when it's been pretty good for consumers who have bought a lot of inexpensive things that we have imported.

Now, that doesn't lead to jobs in America, and that's a political problem. But I think his biggest business problem is the one that Hillary got at today, which is his own personal flawed track record and the way he deals with debt.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: What, the bankruptcy point?

SAVAGE: I'm on neither side of this divide here politically.

But the whole bankruptcy point, even his threat at one point to just simply default on the U.S. national debt, that's the kind of thing that is a very shoot-from-the-hip attitude, might be OK for a businessman to talk about doing it in his own business, but that's really dangerous to America.

So, unfortunately, we're not going to get a lot of economic debate, even though there are some very interesting and different views about taxes, about how to deal with student debt, about trade. What we're getting is a lot of personality debate. And, today, I think Hillary today showed herself to be a more

conservative and more acceptable person to deal with the economic issues than the ones she brought up about Trump. That's sad, because there's a big economic difference between their tax policies. It should be discussed.

BALDWIN: Ryan, quickly, last word and also the fact that she brought up Mitt Romney, your former guy. Do you think he's wincing at all?

WILLIAMS: I think Mitt has made his position very clear on how he feels about Mr. Trump. And that's his position. I think the voters are going to look at both candidates. I think Hillary Clinton's record is very bad on economic issues. They will look at Trump's record in the private sector and they can make their own decisions.

BALDWIN: OK.

Ryan Williams, thank you very much.

And, Terry Savage, thank you. Thank you very much as well.

Next here, staying on politics, did Donald Trump just question Hillary Clinton's Christian faith today? He talked to a group of evangelicals. We will speak live with someone who was there. What was it he said?

Also, ahead, sex and racist texts and a police force in chaos. We're back on this today, why one police department is right now on its fourth leader in 10 days straight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:22:00]

BALDWIN: All right.

Just in to us, Donald Trump questioning Hillary Clinton's Christian faith during this event today with evangelicals. This is one of the Republican Party's most reliable voting blocs, many of whom would have preferred perhaps a Ted Cruz or a Ben Carson.

During this event today, we are told Mr. Trump was talking about how conservatives tend to have their faith questioned and scrutinized, but liberals, like Hillary Clinton, do not.

Kristan Hawkins was attending that forum. She is president of Students for Life of America, a group that describes its mission as abolishing abortion in their lifetimes.

Kristan, nice to meet you.

KRISTAN HAWKINS, PRESIDENT, STUDENTS FOR LIFE OF AMERICA: Thanks for having me on.

BALDWIN: Still got your Trump bracelet on. HAWKINS: I do.

BALDWIN: Just first explain to me. You were in the room. I know it was a huge group and it was tough to hear. But what was it that you heard him say about Hillary Clinton's faith?

HAWKINS: I think it was just more an aside comment talking about how he's been certainly scrutinized about his beliefs and the question of are candidates on the other side being scrutinized as well?

BALDWIN: And do you think that that is a fair assessment, that, you know, more liberal folks aren't as questioned?

HAWKINS: I think it's true.

If you look at the Democratic -- the primary debate, you know, really, the social issues don't come up. There's a lot of questions about faith. I watched the whole debate with my husband. And I sat and said there wasn't any question about faith. And that's always a cornerstone question for Republican primary debates.

BALDWIN: Is it a question, or, though, is it something that a number of these candidates bring up, like a Mike Huckabee or a Ted Cruz inherently bringing up their beliefs in answering the question, because it's so important?

HAWKINS: Sure.

I think it's a little bit of both. I think you look, especially at 2012, I remember a lot of times Rick Santorum would be on that debate stage and he would bring up, hey, can I have a question besides about abortion, because it seems to be those are the only questions I ever get.

BALDWIN: Do you think, though -- I remember some months ago, when Donald Trump had questioned Ted Cruz's faith. And do you think it is Christian of anyone to question anyone's faith?

HAWKINS: Sure.

BALDWIN: No one can crawl into the heart and mind of a Ted Cruz or a Hillary Clinton.

HAWKINS: Sure.

BALDWIN: Is that fair?

HAWKINS: I know what is fair is, we want to know what is in your heart.

As Students for Life, we're in the process of making converts every day. So, we want to talk to people who aren't with us on our issue. And we want to talk to them about our beliefs and why we believe the way we do.

And when we're talking with candidates, especially why we were excited to be speaking with Mr. Trump today, was because we want to know what was in his heart. What is really there? You can use those talking points of, I'm a Christian and pull out some Scripture verses, but the question is, are you truly a Christian? Are you living that out in life your and why? And what is your story?

BALDWIN: You say you do feel like some folks are coming around to Donald Trump.

Why do you think that is?

HAWKINS: I do think some folks in the room, there was some applause lines, people were getting excited.

There were others who still I think remain very skeptical. I think there will be a good portion of those in the room, kind of like myself, who will more than likely vote for him when faced with Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump.

[15:25:03]

BALDWIN: So you're not a definite yet?

HAWKINS: No. I...

BALDWIN: You're marinating still.

HAWKINS: Today was kind of like that dating Web site. It's Just Lunch. It was very much just lunch.

BALDWIN: OK. Not ready for dinner and commitment just yet?

HAWKINS: No.

BALDWIN: OK. OK.

Kristan Hawkins, thank you for swinging by.

HAWKINS: Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: Safe travels back home. We appreciate it.

Coming up next, zero for four, four different bills on gun control failing to pass the U.S. Senate. Why some believe this potential fifth option here proposed moments ago by Senate Republican Senator Susan Collins perhaps could bring about a different result. We have an update on a potential vote. We will take you live to Capitol Hill next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)