Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
Trump Campaign Fires Campaign Manager; Outrage Prompts FBI to Release Full Phone Transcripts; Security Issues in Rio Following Hospital Shootout Amid Financial Crisis; Final Days of Campaigning Before Brexit Vote; Bloody Summer Expected in Chicago; Led Zeppelin on Trial for Allegedly Stealing Song. Aired 2-3a ET
Aired June 21, 2016 - 02:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(HEADLINES)
[02:00:50] AMARA WALKER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello everyone. And welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Amara Walker
JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: Great to have you with us. I'm John Vause. The second hour of NEWSROOM, L.A. starts now.
WALKER: Donald Trump's campaign is in crisis mode as it regroups from its biggest staff shake-up yet. Campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, was fired just weeks before the Republican convention.
VAUSE: The campaign has been struggling lately with sliding poll numbers and heated words with party leaders. But Lewandowski put a positive spin on the move with CNN's Dana Bash.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: From your perspective, what happened? Why were you fired?
COREY LEWANDOWSKI, FORMER DONALD TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. But what I know is that what we have been able to achieve in this election cycle has been historic. We had had a candidate who in June last year announced he would run for president with no experience, in a field of 16 other people in the race, plus him, who has gone on to something historic, which is he got almost 14 million votes and fundamentally changed the way people look at politics. And I'm proud to have been a small part of that. And you know, running as the outsider of this campaign, which he has done, running against the corrupt Washington, D.C., establishment and political correctness has been something I've been proud to be a part of.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Joining us once again, Wendy Greuel, Clinton supporter and former L.A. councilwoman; and KATV talk radio host and Trump supporter, John Philips. Thank you for joining us for another hour.
OK, Trump was on FOX News today and came to praise Lewandowski, not bury him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & CEO, TRUMP ORGANIZATION: With Corey, I'm really proud of him. He did a great job. But we're going to go a little different route.
BILL O'REILLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: So it's a different style --
(CROSSTALK)
O'REILLY: So it's a little big different style and you're bringing in some --
TRUMP: A little different style, yeah.
O'REILLY: All right.
TRUMP: A little different style, yeah. He's a good guy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Clearly, there were problems in the campaign. It was so toxic, one person tweeted this out, "Ding dong, the witch is dead," when he heard about the news.
John, to you, you don't have to have security escort the person out of the building if you're on good terms.
JOHN PHILIPS, KATV RADIO TALK SHOW HOST & DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER: Yes, I think he has something in common with "30 Rock" if you're being fired. You have to be a psychologist, a coach, someone who can deliver a pep talk. And Corey was a unique guy. He was a political consultant who then left the field to become a police officer for many years and then went back to being a political consultant. And when you're a political consultant you have to make friends and influence people and build bridges. When you're a police officer that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. You say drop the gun and you expect them to do it. And you can't have that attitude if you're a campaign manager, if you're running an operation like the Trump campaign. And I think there were a lot of personality conflicts going on there.
VAUSE: So do you think the firing of Corey Lewandowski is a step forward for the Trump campaign?
PHILIPS: Yeah. I think he's transitioning from a primary candidate to a general election. They're going to be adopting a different strategy. And sometimes that means you have to get a different coach. You have to get someone in there who is calling different plays because you're in a different race.
VAUSE: OK, the Lewandowski incident seemed to be pushed by his children. That seemed to be confirmed in an interview with "Bloomberg." This is what Donald Jr had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP JR., SON OF DONALD TRUMP: Were we involved with talking with him about him? Sure. He's always going to come up with his own line. I think if we left in a good way with Corey. We have a great relationship with Corey. He has done some things that is incredible. And you know, I wish all separations of this nature went that well.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What we have been told is, you three were not out to get Corey, but your judgment was a change was required and you made the recommendation to him and that's what made him decide he needed to.
DONALD TRUMP JR: I think it is fair. But in many respects he was coming to that on his own. We were there to help augment that and really think it through with him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: One of the problems with Lewandowski, Trump's poll numbers were starting to come down. In the latest Monmouth poll, Clinton up by eight points. The situation, I hear, for Wendy, though, if you are Hillary Clinton, she doesn't do very well when she is out in front. She has a history of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, if you like, in the past. She doesn't lead well.
[02:05:21] WENDY GREUEL, FORMER L.A. COUNCILWOMAN & HILLARY CLINTON SUPPORTER: Well, I think for Hillary Clinton she has learned from some of the past mistakes. And any campaign, as I talk about, some things -- you know, you're self-inflicted and other things are things you can't control. Hillary Clinton has learned through all the campaigns, as did Bill Clinton, where you can make changes to be effective, where you may not have done well that last time, and now you can win the election by focusing in on the ground game or the message you have. And I think Hillary Clinton is a seasoned individual as far as being in public service. But most importantly, she is sending a message about trying to ensure that everyone in this country is able to rise up, not just a few.
WALKER: And speaking of Clinton, she is giving a speech on the economy tomorrow. And of course, the presumption among at least the Republicans is that the economy is not doing as well as it should be. What do you think we'll hear in the speech tomorrow and do you think Clinton needs to kind of distance herself from the Obama administration policy, especially when it comes to economics?
GREUEL: Well, I think you look at the fact that we've come out of the Great Recession or depression, whatever you want to say, in 2008, and we have had a Democratic president who has brought us to a point where the deficit is reduced, unemployment is reduced. Hillary Clinton will focus on how we can create more jobs, and jobs that sustain you and allow you to afford to live in this country. That you're not having to have two jobs to have that apartment or whatever it may be. She will focus on infrastructure, technology, and on the jobs of the future. VAUSE: OK, let's look at the situation for the Trump campaign.
Because one of the criticisms of Corey Lewandowski is that he did not set up the proper network, the proper ground game. "The Washington Post" had a great graphic when it came to comparing the stuff of Hillary Clinton and the stuff of Donald Trump. There is a tiny number of staff currently working for Donald Trump. About 30 staff, according to the RNC, Republican National Committee. Trump says he has about 70 staff.
John, when you look at these sorts of organizational issues, this potentially, down the line, is a huge problem for Donald Trump. You can be cheap only to a point, can't you?
PHILIPS: And based on that graphic, he looks like the little engine that does.
VAUSE: It does.
(LAUGHTER)
WALKER: A little slower there.
PHILIPS: He is changing the dynamic, and I think American politics have changed. I think before, having a huge war chest actually meant something because you needed to buy the TV time and fill people's mail boxes with mailers. But I think, based on Facebook and social networking, social media, free media, earned media, I think things have changed. And Donald Trump has proven by beating Marco Rubio and Jeb Bush and Ted Cruz and people with a lot more money than him that you can win without having that political abandon.
WALKER: In the general election, he said, listen, I am going to have to turn the donors and need contributions from the outside. Do you think there is a fundamental problem here when you have major GOP donors who are very hesitant to contribute to his campaign, not only because of his tone but, as John mentioned, the organizational structure and issues play out.
PHILIPS: There is no question he will have to transition from being a primary candidate to a general election candidate. And that was the primary reason that Corey went.
VAUSE: Let's look at money here. The numbers we've got through the FEC, Clinton has $42 million on hand, Trump has just $42 million. You have a super PAC, which has $50 million standing by. This was the campaign in May, you look at staff numbers, which is compared to Clinton and Trump, Clinton is up by what, seven or eight points? Given the infrastructure she has, shouldn't she be ahead by light years by this point?
GREUEL: When you look at the different fundamentals of a campaign, with Bernie Sanders running, the numbers change, same with Donald Trump, as each candidate dropped out, the numbers changed. Her numbers will continue to grow. You see Trump isn't mentioning his polling numbers any more. What you see is her investment will pay off in those states where they're going to be battle ground states. And that's a really important part of it. And it's going to be hard to catch up.
WALKER: And when you talk about Trump, it's been a hard couple of weeks. After the firing of Lewandowski, he was on FOX News and he talked about a new direction for his campaign. Let's listen to what he had to say there first.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think it's time now for a different kind of a campaign. We ran a small, beautiful, well-unified campaign. It worked very well in the primaries. I think I'm probably going to do some of that. I want to keep it very much in control. As an example, I have 73 people, Hillary Clinton has almost 900 people, and we're in the same position.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[02:10:18] WALKER: So new campaign, what is actually exactly going to be new? More staff?
VAUSE: More money.
WALKER: More money? Is that what we're talking about?
VAUSE: Reach into the back pocket, sell a building.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILIPS: I think you start with different staff starting with today.
(LAUGHTER)
WALKER: Sort of late.
PHILLIPS: And a different attitude going into it. But look, I don't think he needs to change the dynamic that much, because if you look at Hillary Clinton's past, she had all the money, all the endorsements. She was the huge favorite against Bernie Sanders, and she lost in a bunch of places that she had no business losing. She was ahead by 20 points in Michigan just weeks before the primary with Bernie Sanders, and he ended up upsetting her. I think se has a lot of flaws and Donald Trump will be able to exploit those if he is able to articulate that message in the general.
VAUSE: And Elizabeth Warren, the Senator from Massachusetts, again mocking Donald Trump. This happened over the weekend after reports that Donald Trump was considering Scott Brown, who Elizabeth Warren beat. He was considering Brown to be his V.P. And Elizabeth Warren went on to mock both of them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN, (R), MASSACHUSETTS: And I hear that Donald Trump is floating Scott Brown as a possible running mate.
(LAUGHTER)
And I thought, ah, so Donald Trump really does have a plan to help the unemployed.
And let's face it, nobody knows more about losing to a girl than Scott Brown.
Think of it as the perfect reality TV show.
(LAUGHTER)
"Celebrity Apprentice" meets the biggest loser.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: OK, this is all part of the feud between Donald Trump and Elizabeth Warren. He has been calling her Pocahontas, when she claimed she was Native American. He was asked if he regretted it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I do regret calling her Pocahontas, because I think it's an insult to Pocahontas. So to Pocahontas, I would like to apologize to you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: The new campaign exactly like the old campaign.
(LAUGHTER)
PHILIPS: Well, Elizabeth Warren beat a Republican for Massachusetts, so way to bring them to their knees, Ace.
(LAUGHTER)
VAUSE: Wendy, last word?
GREUEL: I think we'll see the divide between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump grow even more. She will continue to go on the campaign to win in November. And I think particularly she is going to be focusing on the issues. And the free media that Donald Trump has been getting is not going to be the same that he has been getting for this last year. It's going to be tougher.
VAUSE: OK.
WALKER: Thanks for the live discussion.
John Philips and Wendy Greuel, Appreciate it.
PHILIPS: Thank you.
VAUSE: Four more months to go. Can't wait.
Thanks, guys.
WALKER: Well, the man arrested for grabbing a police officer's gun at a Trump rally admits that he wanted to use it to kill the Republican candidate.
VAUSE: Police arrested 19-year-old Michael Sanford at a Trump event in Las Vegas on Saturday. He is now charged with violating two federal laws and could face a decade in prison if he is convicted.
U.S. Senators couldn't get enough support to pass four gun control measures after the nightclub shooting in Orlando. The amendments included expanded background checks and preventing gun sales to anyone on the government's terror watch list.
WALKER: A fifth measure will be introduced on Tuesday by moderate Republican Senator Susan Collins.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER, (D), NEW YORK: It's nothing new that Susan Collins is trying to make a compromise, and it's a good thing, but the key question is not whether Susan Collins will step forward and try to offer a compromise, but whether 20 Republicans will finally join her so we can get something done. That is the key question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALKER: The Collins measure would block people on the government's no-fly list from buying guns.
The FBI has released full transcripts of the Orlando gunman's phone calls with police during his rampage that killed 49 people. They released redacted versions earlier Monday, removing references to ISIS and its leader.
VAUSE: But a public backlash prompted the FBI to disclose the entire transcripts. They insist the decision to initially redact the references was strategic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RON HOPPER, FBI ASSISTANT SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: Part of the redacting is not to give credence to individuals who have done terrorist acts in the past. We're not going to propagate their rhetoric, their violent rhetoric. And we see no value in putting their names back out there. We're trying to prevent future acts from happening again. And for cowards like this one, people like that, it influences them, so we're not going to continue to put their names out front.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
Chris Voss is with us now. He's a former FBI international hostage negotiator. His new book is called "Never Split the Difference, Negotiating as if Your Life Depended on It."
Chris, thanks for being with us.
First, this issue of redacting and the transcripts being released, this seems to be really badly handled by the FBI. [02:15:21] CHRIS VOSS, FORMER FBI INTERNATIONAL HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR &
AUTHOR: Well, I think the Department of Justice made a committee decision, and they are usually bad. I can think of a couple reasons why they may hesitate in putting the whole thing out. Terrorism, at the end of the day, is about marketing and attention. And they're trying to limit the marketing and attention they get for the groups of criminals. This is really a cowardly act. It doesn't take any courage to attack people who are unarmed so they're trying to limit it.
WALKER: There's also chunks of conversation missing, and in terms of it being released, what was being discussed between the negotiators and the terrorists themselves. Give us a sense of what is going on and, in the negotiator's role, what they are trying to do.
VOSS: Well, the negotiator's job is to engage and distract. The real primary device to distract is to get them on the phone and distract. The important thing that's happening while they're distracting him is no one is getting killed. For about 28 minutes, they slowed him down, they distracted him, they kept people from getting killed. They had a concern about people bleeding, there were also people not shot yet. Their first job is to try to keep more people from getting shot, and that is what the negotiator does.
VAUSE: And to put the transcripts out there, it was an answer to that problem, as an antidote to do the right thing, getting the transcripts out there, but it was inadequate. Knowing what we know now, what is your belief?
VOSS: Well, first of all, the negotiators engaged about 50 minutes into the scene from the sounds of the first shots being fired. That's actually fairly quick, as difficult as it is to get an entire team there. So they engaged and they began to distract him and they began to gather information. Everything I see from this so far looks like law enforcement proceeded with what I like to call deliberate urgency, as fast as they possibly can without being reckless.
WALKER: Anything else that could have been done to minimize the number of people that were killed. 49 people, you don't think they possibly could have moved in quicker while the terrorist was being distracted or on the phone during the negotiations?
VOSS: Well, one of the real problems is they have to make sure they don't contribute to the problem. And police going in haphazardly, they get shot and now the problem is exponentially worse. So they have to be very careful that when they go in, they have to make sure it works. It is dangerous. They do it in a very calculated fashion.
VAUSE: Why not release the 29 minutes, the summary? Why not release all it, put it out there?
VOSS: Again, looks like a committee decision to me. I probably wouldn't have done that myself but I don't know the thinking that went behind it. I can see pro and con, they want to maintain integrity in the investigation. But you can see what happens when they don't let it all out at one time. VAUSE: You think there is a cover-up?
VOSS: Right.
WALKER: Transparency is always good, isn't it?
Chris Voss, thank you for dropping by. Thanks for your insights.
VOSS: Thank you for having me.
WALKER: Thank you.
VAUSE: A short break. And when we come back, Brazil is grappling with a political and a health crisis. And now security issues after a shootout at a Rio hospital. That's next.
WALKER: Also, Rio is looking for a financial lifeline as it prepares to host the Summer Olympic Games. Just ahead, the plea for help from the state's acting governor.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(SPORTS REPORT)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[02:20:20] WALKER: Brazil is struggling with the Zika Virus and political upheaval ahead of the Summer Olympics.
VAUSE: Now they're concerned about safety in the host city after a deadly hospital attack.
WALKER: Joining us now is Nick Paton Walsh in Rio de Janeiro with the very latest.
So, Nick, let's start with the attack that happened at Rio de Janeiro's largest hospital. Take us through what exactly happened.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Most importantly, you need to know about the hospital is it is one of five designated to deal with a potential half a million visitors they expect to visit here. It's close to the football stadium where the opening ceremony of the Olympic Games will occur.
Now Sunday morning, we saw apparently 20 masked men launch an attack on their hospital. The goal was to try to get hold of a man who was an alleged drug kingpin, known as Fat Family. Now the pictures we see there suggested he was cuffed to a stretcher, arrested a week ago. He had substantial wounds to his head. He was seen with his hands signing loyalty towards a gang. Now they were clearly successful bringing him out of the hospital. Witnesses described explosions, intense gunfire in the corridor of the hospital themselves. Brazilian media showing police surrounding that particular area.
Amara, I have to say, this is part of the life in Brazil that happens very often. But nobody expected it would try to take over such a vital part of the health structure that are supposed to be helping Olympic visitors just weeks from now -- Amara?
WALKER: And a lot of problems Brazil is dealing with now, including the financial crisis, a state of public emergency when it comes to the financial administration. Talk to us a little bit more about that because they need cash. The state of Rio needs cash. Will they get it? And again, what services will be impacted when it comes to the Olympics?
WALSH: Well, everyone has known for a period of time that Rio state, Rio city are in financial trouble. That is no secret. You can see it here when you see the police talk about the problems with financing, when universities are on strike, and hospitals have severe visible issues.
[02:25:50] That came to the surface in a very unprecedented way Friday, when the Rio state acting governor came out and said there was a state of emergency, we're in severe trouble, we need extra loans, and there is a plea for broader help from the higher levels of Brazil's government. Now, there was an emergency meeting today in which the government was supposed to address that. The initial signals we have, because there are many different states across Brazil competing for extra cash. Not just Rio here.
Just weeks from now, the initial insights they get from the meeting, the plan of delayed debt repayment. There is no immediate sign, according to local media reports, $850 million worth of cash that Rio state wanted is immediately forthcoming. That is a huge problem. Because on Friday, they made it clear it would impact health care, police services potentially, and I think more importantly, for those coming here for their holiday to view the Olympic games, that is sort of a backdrop of working safety that people really need to feel comfortable.
So, Amara, aside from this one hospital attack, we have a broadening climate of pessimism about how well the government here is equipped to deal with this massive international event -- Amara?
WALKER: A lot worrying events popping up as the Olympics are just a few weeks away in Rio.
Nick Paton Walsh, good to have you. Thanks for that, in Rio de Janeiro.
VAUSE: Coming up next for our viewers in Asia, "State of the Race" with Kate Bolduan.
WALKER: And for everybody else, up ahead, a divided U.K. preparing to cast its votes in the final days of the Brexit campaign, and what the polls are showing. That is next.
VAUSE: Also coming up, in the British parliament, how they paid tribute to Jo Cox.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Jo's life was a demonstration against despair. And in her tragic death we can come together to change our politics, to tolerate a little more and condemn a little less.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[02:30:17] WALKER: Welcome, everyone. You are watching CNN NEWSROOM, live from Los Angeles. I'm Amara Walker.
VAUSE: And I'm John Vause.
Just on 11:30. Here's the headlines.
(HEADLINES)
WALKER: British politicians returned to parliament Monday and gave a moving tribute to slain colleague, Jo Cox. Roses marked the area where she usually sat in the House of Commons. She was killed in the northern English village of Birstall.
VAUSE: It's unclear if Jo Cox's murder will have an effect on the Brexit referendum but the tone of the debate is more subdued.
WALKER: The vote is just two days away. And the final debate of the campaign will happen in front of a live audience Tuesday night in the Wimberley arena. London Mayor Sadiq Khan will argue to remain in the E.U. while his predecessor, Boris Johnson, will represent the Leave side.
VAUSE: British newspapers are taking positions. And "The Telegraph" urging readers to leave, joining "The Sun," "The Sunday Times, and "The Sunday Telegraph."
Lord Roger Liddle is the chair of Policy Network and the author of "The Risk of Brexit." He joins us now from London.
Lord, thank you for joining us.
LORD ROGER LIDDLE, CHAIR, THE POLICY NETWORK & AUTHOR: Hello, there.
VAUSE: Is it right for a newspaper like "The Telegraph" and the others to take such a firm stance for Britain to leave the E.U.? Is that a legitimate part of the debate?
LIDDLE: Well, our media has very many bosses. I think the British press is very robust in its views on the subject. And I think that 80 percent of British newspaper readers read newspapers that are advocating coming out of Europe. So it will be an interesting test of how influential the press is.
VAUSE: Well, the British foreign secretary made the point on Monday to leave is forever. This is some of what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PHILIP HAMMOND, BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY: The message that we're trying to get across to the British people is that this is an irreversible decision. If Britain decides to leave, there will be no going back. Britain could never join the European Union at a later date, except on terms that would not be unacceptable to it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Do you think the message is resonating with the voters? Do they realize that should this referendum favor the Leave Campaign and should they Britain decide to leave the U.K. that there will be no turning back?
LIDDLE: Well, there are signs as polling day approaches of a more realistic approach, as it were, on the part of the electorate. I think emotionally a lot of people wanted to give Europe a good kicking. And that meant that in the early phase of the campaign, the Leave position took a lead. But the gap is now narrowing. And I think that is because people realize the importance for the decision for Britain, that it is, as Philip Hammond said, an irreversible decision, that all of our friends around the world want us to stay, because there is a risk in leaving. So the death, the tragic death, the murder of Jo Cox in Yorkshire, I think, has brought about that more realistic mood.
VAUSE: You talked about giving Europe a good kicking, the British comedian, John Oliver, hosts a show here on HBO, he sums up the debate like this. Please listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN OLIVER, HBO HOT, LAST WEEK TONIGHT: Immigration policy may not change. Hysteria over regulation is a red herring. The costs of membership are reasonable. And the economic benefits of staying seems to outweigh the cost. And yet, polls suggest my homeland is on the edge of doing something insane. And on some level I actually kind of understand because there is an innate desire to tell Europe to go (EXPLETIVE DELETED) itself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
VAUSE: I guess the point here is essentially there are concerns within Britain, but maybe those concerns are not enough to drive them out of the E.U.
[02:35:09] LIDDLE: I think what we're seeing across Europe and in the United States is a great revolt against the elites. And this is a chance to give the elites a kicking. On the other hand, it has very, very profound consequences for the country. And I think that in the end realism will prevail.
VAUSE: Lord Liddle, thank you so much for getting up early and being with us. We appreciate it, sir.
LIDDLE: Well, thank you. Thank you.
WALKER: And still to come here on CNN NEWSROOM, expectations of a bloody summer in Chicago. Dozens of shootings over Father's Day weekend. We'll tell you what is being done to try to stop the violence.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WALKER: The heartland U.S. city of Chicago is reporting 13 murders and 40 people wounded and 54 separate shootings over just last weekend.
VAUSE: The victims include a 16-year-old boy killed in a drive-by shooting, a 3-year-old boy wounded in a drive-by. Worse than that, the number is unusual, 300 homicides so far this year.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALKER: Andrew Holmes, a Chicago community activist, is joining us now.
You know, President Obama has obviously spoken out a lot about more gun control measures. But he is also from Chicago, the south side. He has a home there so the gun violence has hit close to President Obama and the first lady's home.
I want to play you sound from last year where President Obama talks about this persistent issue. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES I live on the south side of Chicago, so my house is pretty close to some places where shootings take place. Because that is real, we've got to get on top of it before it becomes an accelerating trend.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[02:40:20] WALKER: So is it an accelerating trend? Is it too late to stop it from becoming an accelerating trend? And what needs to happen to stop the violence that seems to happen every day in Chicago?
ANDREW HOLMES, CHICAGO COMMUNITY ACTIVIST: Well, the gun violence has been accelerating for years and years. It has not been started just because Obama has been the president. This has been since the '70s and '80s and is constantly increasing.
VAUSE: I just want to show the audience the statistics from the gun violence in Chicago. This is coming from "The Chicago Times." On average, two people are murdered every day in Chicago, 311 homicides in this year, 2016. Over a thousand people shot, from the end of the year, to the beginning, 2,928 people shot in 2015.
Chicago still sees more of gun violence than the rest of the country. And you know, I have to bring the politics back in, because we continually hear opponents of gun laws, saying look here, we have the toughest gun laws in Chicago, more strictness than any other area in the country. What do you say to that?
HOLMES: Well, it is worser. And they're absolutely right. We have to toughest laws to me in the United States. Why keep making laws if the judicial system once those individuals are faced with the crime, quit slapping them on the wrist and putting them back out on the streets. I mean, let them sit. If they have to pay the consequences, pay the consequences, why give them home monitoring when they're on home monitoring already, and they go out and commit another crime, maybe even murder. Quit looking at this as a joke, these are people's lives being lost. You know, little kids, 6, 7, 2-year-old shot on the streets. It's an insult.
WALKER: Andrew, I know that you know from living in Chicago you were always one of the first people there, you know, responding to yet another deadly shooting. Gang violence, what have you, in Chicago. And I understand just last year, your daughter was killed, caught in the crossfire, not in Chicago, but this was in a neighboring state in Indiana and Indianapolis. How has your life changed since your daughter was killed and how has that impacted your activism in the Chicago community?
HOLMES: Well, it took a total change in my life. I want it to stop. I didn't want to work anymore. I didn't want to do anything more because that was my first born. And it hurts like hell that I don't have my child anymore. I want it to end it all. I just didn't want to help anybody anymore. I just gave up. But you know, the spirit and the prayers, I had to get back out here and do what I was doing best.
WALKER: It's inspiring to see you. You channeled that hurt into something good.
Andrew Holmes, thank you for your time.
HOLMES: Yes, ma'am.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: Well, up next, Led Zeppelin on trial, accused of stealing the intro to their classic song "Stairway to Heaven." We'll have the very latest on the court hearing. And we'll break down the songs, chord by chord.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(WEATHER REPORT)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[02:42:44] VAUSE: Welcome back, everybody. A copyright infringement trial against the group, Led Zeppelin, resumes on Tuesday here in Los Angels. Their hit "Stairway to Heaven" is the subject of the case. And millions of dollars in potential royalties are at stake. The band Spirits says Led Zeppelin stole the iconic opening riff from their song "Taurus."
Rebecca Sun is a senior reporter with "The Hollywood Reporter." She's been following the case and joins us now.
Rebecca, thank you for joining us.
REBECCA SUN, SENIOR REPORTER, THE HOLLYWOOD REPORTER: Of course.
VAUSE: OK, so we're at the point now where the defense is asking for this all to be dismissed on a number of legal grounds, the first being no one has actually proved copyright of the other song.
SUN: So the plaintiff in this case is the trustee for a songwriter from Spirit who died in '97. The thing is though, that "Taurus" was written as a work for hire. In other words, he signed over the copyright renewal right to a musical publishing company, Hollenbeck, so Led Zeppelin is saying they don't even have the rights to sue because they don't even own the composition.
VAUSE: Right, the other is access.
SUN: Access is whether Led Zeppelin even had the opportunity to hear Taurus. So they did open --
(CROSSTALK)
VAUSE: "Taurus" opened for --
(CROSSTALK)
SUN: No, no, Led Zeppelin opened for Spirit, which is an older band. But they played like only a handful of shows together on the same venue and the same night. And none of the witnesses that the plaintiff brought to the trial were able to establish that they actually played Taurus during those shows in which they overlapped. So there was no way to prove whether or not they actually ever heard the song. The other thing is that Jimmy Page, he actually owns the Spirit album. He went back through his collections and said, OK, I do own the album. But he has thousands of collections and said, OK, there is no way to prove when I bought it.
VAUSE: So they determine how long he has this and then what happens?
[02:49:53] SUN: Well, Led Zeppelin made a motion that they just want the judge to stop the trial before the jury has a chance to deliberate. If it continues to proceed, then they begin to debate issues of similarity in terms of the music itself. You know, which is interesting, though, because the copyright claim is not over the song recordings but over the music sheet that was filed over at the U.S. copyright office. So the jury was not able to hear the actual Led Zeppelin recording of "Stairway to Heaven" or Spirit's recording of "Taurus." It's just --
VAUSE: It's notes on a page.
SUN: Or they bring in experts to bring in the sheet music, which sounds very different from the final produce.
VAUSE: One thing that's come out already is how much money that Led Zeppelin has made over the years, but not specifically "Stairway to Heaven."
SUN: That's right. They brought in an economic expert to calculate the value of Led Zeppelin's total catalogue, just under $60 million for the three years under which the sort of statute is in place. Now how much is that? Is it attributed to "Stairway to Heaven"? It has yet to be determined if they even can determine such a thing.
WALKER: Millions of dollars are at stake one way or the other.
Rebecca, thank you for breaking it down.
SUN: Absolutely.
WALKER: Now, this lawsuit is a bit of fodder for late-night television. "The Late Show" with host, Steven Colbert, played the music back-to-back and had this prediction for Led Zeppelin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, THE LATE SHOW: I listened to both songs and I'm not sure that Zep ripped them off. But I have to say, it really makes me wonder.
(LAUGHTER)
(SINGING)
(LAUGHTER)
(SINGING)
(LAUGHTER)
COLBERT: Judge for yourselves.
(LAUGHTER)
Here is "Stairway to Heaven."
(MUSIC)
COLBERT: And here is "Taurus" by Spirit.
(MUSIC)
COLBERT: They're screwed.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: We should mention that Steven Colbert is deaf in one ear, though.
And I spoke with guitarist, TJR, about the similarities between "Stairway to Heaven" and "Taurus." (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TJR, GUITARIST: Let me play the guitar passage from "Taurus" for you, OK? And then I'll explain it a little bit more, so here we go.
(MUSIC)
TJR: And then it repeats again.
VAUSE: Uh-huh.
TJR: "Stairway to Heaven."
(MUSIC)
VAUSE: OK, so this is the A minor chord with a descending base line.
TJR: So what happens is both songs have the same A minor chord.
(MUSIC)
TJR: Now, the difference is here is where the difference is. "Taurus" is just --
(MUSIC)
TJR: All in the A minor chord.
"Stairway to Heaven."
(MUSIC)
TJR: And then --
(MUSIC)
TJR: To a D 7th to an F 7th.
(MUSIC)
TJR: And then we --
(MUSIC)
TJR: -- pick up on the G resolve on A minor.
(MUSIC)
TJR: So resolves whereas "Taurus" hangs.
VAUSE: OK. Some critics have said that could be the big difference because that changes the entire place of the rift.
TJR: There's one other thing that changes this riff as well. That's a valid point. It does change it a bit. However, "Taurus" does also in its own way resolve, because it comes out of that -- (MUSIC)
TJR: -- then with a D over.
(MUSIC)
TJR: And then.
(MUSIC)
TJR: And then it does resolve because it comes back.
(MUSIC)
TJR: So the argument could be made well it does resolve, but when it comes back to the next measure it does resolve there, in your ear it resolves.
VAUSE: OK.
TJR: But the other thing is with "Stairway to Heaven," you have both the descending base line --
(MUSIC)
TJR: -- but you also have a melody line that ascends --
(MUSIC)
TJR: -- before it comes back to F sharp, which is --
(MUSIC)
TJR: -- So you have that ascending melody, which is not in "Taurus."
VAUSE: The tone and the pace and the feel?
TJR: Yes.
Also I should mention is how the notes are metered in written notation. For the most part, they are quarter notes, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four. You know, they follow that similar pacing the way they're notated, so that is another similarity there.
[02:55:25] But I think you -- before you make up your mind about this, you have to listen to the two recordings and hear them. And judge them on how they feel and, you know, I think that is where you're going to really make up your mind. (END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: And before we go, some breaking news out of Brussels. Agents reporting people arrested a man near a shopping center who was acting suspiciously. That triggered a bomb threat response. Happened early Tuesday morning in the center of the Belgium capitol. The prime minister is meeting with the country's crisis response center regarding the possible bomb threat. We'll have a live report next hour on CNN.
That does it for CNN NEWSROOM, L.A. I'm John Vause.
The news continues with Rosemary Church after a short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[03:00:09] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
