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Trump Tax Return; Britain's Historic Vote; Libertarians Shake Up Race; Rubio Runs For Senate. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired June 22, 2016 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00] DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It goes on and on. Tens of thousands to Trump golf courses, thousands to Trump hotels, even $3,900 to son Eric Trump's winery. Altogether, it adds up to about $6.3 million. Roughly 10 percent of Trump's campaign spending is on, well, businesses run, operated or owned by the candidate himself.

GRIFFIN (on camera): Donald Trump has self-financed most of this campaign by loaning his campaign his own money. Now, will he eventually end up profiting on his campaign for president? Unless he releases those tax returns way down the road, we may never know.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Drew Griffin, many thanks.

Speaking of tax returns, Mr. Trump has said he won't release his tax returns until the feds wrap up a routine audit. Now, there's no law requiring Mr. Trump to wait and for decades every presidential nominee has released their tax returns. Enter Democrat Hillary Clinton. She is seizing on Trump's lack of transparency and stoking the suspicion that he may be hiding something.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: What's he afraid of? Maybe that we'll learn he hasn't paid taxes on his huge income. Or maybe he isn't as rich as he claims. Or that he hasn't given away as much to charity as he brags about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So let's talk about this, and Trump's upcoming speech. Errol Louis is here, a political anchor at New York One and CNN political commentator, and Larry Sabato joins me, director for the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia.

Welcome to both of you.

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good morning.

: Thanks, Carol.

COSTELLO: OK, so -- so this tax issue. You know, you know what Donald Trump is going to say in his speech, right, Errol? He's going to say, you know what, when Hillary releases her Wall Street speech transcripts, I'll release my tax returns. Is that an effective argument?

LOUIS: It will probably, for those who don't care about the issue, it will probably be enough to sort of make them both seem equal, although, of course, they are not. I mean the -- what Drew Griffin just reported is exactly right, which is that there are a number of important issues that people actually might care about that we'll never really know about unless you see the tax returns.

And, again, not an allegation of illegality, even coming from Hillary Clinton, frankly, but a chance to sort of test some of the claims that he's made about how generous he is with charity, about how much income he makes, and about how much he pays in taxes, you know. There are some important loopholes out there that are available to people in the real estate industry that most folks don't know about. It's been reported. And at least a number of years he has paid or owed no taxes at all. And so it's -- it's worth knowing, but he's made clear, every way he can, that even if he has to distract by throwing it back at Hillary Clinton, he doesn't want to talk about it.

COSTELLO: So do voters care about this, Larry?

LARRY SABATO, DIR., UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA CENTER FOR POLITICS: Well, they out to. I don't know whether they do or not, but they ought to. And here's why. This was one of the great precedents set by the terrible Watergate scandal in the early 1970s. In fact, Richard Nixon was the first incumbent president to release his tax returns because more or less he had to as a concession to those investigating him. And since that time, Carol, every single presidential nominee of both parties has released tax returns, sometimes many years' worth of tax returns.

This is absolutely essential to the transparency of the campaign process. And we're on the edge of having that precedent broken. And once it's broken, I guarantee you, other candidates in the future will use this precedent to keep from releasing their returns. And we'll be the poorer for it, we, the people, we, the voters.

COSTELLO: So I want to go back to Hillary Clinton's transcripts of her Wall Street speeches. Is it apples and oranges? Does releasing your tax returns compare to releasing transcripts of speeches you gave to Wall Street groups or banks?

Errol, I'll throw that to you.

LOUIS: Well, I think of them as fundamentally different. I mean what you say in a speech, you know, maybe it's true, maybe it accurate, maybe it isn't. Maybe it's a policy that you haven't revealed to the public, or maybe it's a twist on a policy that's a little different than what you've said to the public. That's worth knowing. The transparency is important.

The tax question that Larry just sort of raised, not only for its precedent setting importance, but for us to know of his many, many business interests all around the world, some of which involve foreign countries. You know, what's going on? I don't think that's an impertinent question. I don't think it's an irrelevant question. Is it possible that voters will skip over it because it's not necessarily going to change their job outlook tomorrow or do anything for their local schools? Yes, that's very possible, but that doesn't make it any less important.

[09:35:15] COSTELLO: So -- well, so, Larry, why doesn't Hillary Clinton trump Mr. Trump and say, you know what, OK, I'll release my speech transcripts, now pony up. Why doesn't she do that?

SABATO: Well, she ought to do it. I don't think it's essential and I don't think we need necessarily a precedent that all candidates for president have to release the speech transcripts of every talk they've given. Goodness knows I -- I feel badly for the CNN interns that had to read them all.

Look, they're mainly boilerplate, I can guarantee you. It wasn't about the speech. It was about Bill and Hillary Clinton vacuuming up $153 million from special interests, from the day they got out of office, right up to 2015. That is not admirable, it's also not illegal.

COSTELLO: You know, and I want to -- I want to hone in on that because I -- I talked to a Democratic congressman about that very issue earlier this morning, Errol. He didn't see -- he didn't seems to see any problem with that. He said other presidents after leaving office have made money. But as Larry said, this is $153 million, and some of that money was made by Bill Clinton while Hillary Clinton was secretary of state.

LOUIS: Yes, that -- there is -- there is that. What was said, when was said. You know, you'd have to sort of layout a timeline and see if there are any contractions, problems or conflicts there.

But, no, the precedent was set a long time ago. I think this first came to my attention -- I remember when, as an ex-president, Ronald Reagan spoke to Amway I think it was for $1 million for a single speech in some gigantic arena and I remember thinking how unseemly and unusual it was at the time. But, you know, things have moved on.

The reality is, for people of the Clintons' caliber, giving speeches is essentially what their job is. So, you know, you or I might think maybe they're getting paid a little too much, but this is what they do. My guess would be, frankly, is that they use the same speech and recycled it lots of different times. That might even have violated some of their contracts, real or implied. So, you know, that might be a reason that she doesn't want people to see that she's given the same speech 20 times and charged everybody an arm and a leg for it.

COSTELLO: So, Larry, you were going to say?

SABATO: Well, as I was suggesting, it's not admirable, but it's not illegal. But, you know, I have to laugh, listening to Errol, he's absolutely right, we used to have standards. They're all gone. Poor old Harry Truman had to ask Congress indirectly for a presidential pension because he wouldn't endorse products. He wouldn't take money for speeches. Oh, to go back to those days. They're gone forever. Now, former presidents and first ladies and presidential nominees will do almost anything for a buck.

COSTELLO: People run for office to make money now. They write books during their campaigns and have book signings. I mean, that happened this round, right?

All right, we don't have to get into that right now.

SABATO: Yes.

COSTELLO: Yes, it did. We don't have to get into that, though.

But, Errol Louis, Larry Sabato, you're going to stick around for Trump's big speech, which is supposed to happen at 10:30 Eastern time. That's in just under an hour. So I'll expect you both back promptly. Thanks so much.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Britain facing an historic vote tomorrow, stay in the European Union or go it alone.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:42:44] COSTELLO: In or out. That is the question facing millions of Brits on the eve of an historic vote on whether to remain in the European Union. Prime Minister David Cameron is making his last minute push to convince voters that the U.K. is safer and more stable staying in the E.U. But opponents saying leaving would allow Britain's to take back control of their country.

CNN's Phil Black live in London with more.

Good morning.

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol.

It's interesting, but immigration is probably one of the key issues in this referendum question, motivating people to support the idea of leaving -- of Britain leaving the European Union. The idea that Britain doesn't have control of its borders, can't decide who gets to come here and work here and stay. It's one of the key reasons for joining the European Union. It is freedom of movement. One of the rules.

But the remain side of this debate, as you say, led by Prime Minister David Cameron, argues that even if there is an issue with immigration, simply withdrawing from the E.U. is not the way to deal with that because it would, he argues, do enormous damage to Britain's economy and its long-term safety and security. So that's the message he's out desperately trying to make today. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: You've got one day left to hammer out that message, stronger, safer, better off. And as we do so, think of one word that brings it all into one, which is together, because, frankly, if we want the bigger economy and more jobs, we're better if we do it together. If we want to fight climate change, we're better if we do it together. If we want to win against the terrorists and keep our country safe, we're better if we do it together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACK: The extraordinary thing is, Carol, that here we are, less than a day from when the polling stations opened here, and no one knows how this is going to turn out. It is still so incredibly tight. It is the undecided voters, obviously, that will decide this and so that's who the people are -- both campaigns are out today really trying to appeal to.

It has been a long, difficult, often ugly campaign. There's been some nastiness in this. But what it means is that because it's so close, the result is probably going to be tight. And whatever the result, it's very likely that the divisions that have been opened up here over the course of this campaign, well, they're not going to heal quickly once we know who has won.

[09:45:07] Carol.

COSTELLO: All right, Phil Black, reporting live in London, thank you.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, their unfavorable ratings are high, buts is that enough to keep Clinton or Trump out of the White House? The libertarians hope so.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Tonight a third party goes prime time. Presidential libertarian candidate Gary Johnson marking one of the highest profile moments in the party's history as he faces voters during a CNN town hall tonight. And it's pretty much all thanks to Donald Trump. Trump's rhetoric turns off some conservatives. So, could Johnson be the alternative voters are looking for?

[09:50:06] A recent CNN/ORC poll shows Johnson with 9 percent support nationwide. The green party nominee, Jill Stein, is pulling 7 percent. A candidate has to hit 15 percent, though, to make the national debate stage. Stein appearing on "New Day" this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JILL STEIN, GREEN PARTY'S PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: People are so distrusting and disliking of the two major candidates and their political parties.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: With me now is Austin Petersen, a former 2016 libertarian candidate for president.

Good morning.

AUSTIN PETERSEN, FORMER LIBERTARIAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Good morning. Thanks for having me on, Carol.

COSTELLO: Thanks for being here. What do you think viewers will learn from CNN's libertarian town hall

tonight?

PETERSEN: I think they're going to learn that there is a party that represents the true broad swath of American people. People who believe in liberty as it was originally designed by the founding fathers. People who believe in limited government, constitutionalism. I think Gary Johnson represents that the best out of all the candidates who are running right now. And it's very exciting to see all these poll numbers. And I do want to say thank you very much to CNN for having this town hall tonight because that's how we can get the message out to voters. So I'm very appreciative for that.

COSTELLO: OK, I want to talk a little bit more about Mr. Johnson's platform. He believes in small government. He's big on personal freedoms, like legalizing marijuana, embracing gay rights and doing away with all gun laws. He wants to dispose of government regulations and slash federal budgets. Some of that doesn't sound too mainstream to me. So how could you sell that to moderate voters out there?

PETERSEN: Well, I think it's important that while the voters can understand that we may have some opinions that are a little outside of the mainstream, that a libertarian president would govern under the laws of the land, under the Constitution, and they would not overstep the powers of the executive branch. So whether they're worried about us slashing Medicaid or bringing all the troops home immediately, the American voters do have to understand that the president will obey the Constitution. And Gary Johnson has promised to do that. So you have to take moderate steps towards these more radical ideas that we have. But I think that the American voter should feel comfortable with the fact that they know that they would have a government that lived within the confines of the Constitution.

COSTELLO: So Mr. Johnson wouldn't dispose of government regulations right off the bat? Is that what you're saying?

PETERSEN: If there was an act of Congress, I believe that he would look at these regulations. But he tends to be a little bit more prudent and pragmatic in how he manages his affairs perhaps more than I am, a little bit more radical. But it's important to remember, of course, that if there were any regulatory bills that were come across Governor Johnson's desk, that I am confident that he would make the best decision for what's in the best interest of the American people. And some of that might entail some cuts. But the first thing you need to do is have an audit. And I think that Governor Johnson would look at auditing many of these federal agencies, finding where the waste, fraud and abuse is and libertarians would never endanger the national security of the American people or the economic security of the American people. That comes first before ideology.

COSTELLO: Well, a lot of people would probably quibble with bringing all of the troops home, because a lot of people argue we need more troops, you know, to fight ISIS in places like Iraq and in Syria, in Libya.

PETERSEN: Sure. But if they do so -- COSTELLO: So --

PETERSEN: They should operate constitutionally. So the president has limited powers of war making and the Congress really has the power to lay down letters of mark an reprisal, even perhaps to deal with ISIS terrorists, such as the way that Thomas Jefferson handled these problems. They would operate constitutionally. So --

COSTELLO: Thomas Jefferson handled problems like ISIS?

PETERSEN: Well, yes, actually. The Barberry (ph) pirates of his day were the Islamic terrorists that he had to deal with. And Congress laid letters of mark and reprisal. This was a constitutional way for the president to deal with these kinds of problems that we face today. We've kind of abandoned that. Actually, Congressman Ron Paul tried to do that after 9/11 to deal with Osama bin Laden. We might have been able to get the bad guys a little bit faster that way, but --

COSTELLO: All right.

PETERSEN: I believe that President Johnson would obey the Constitution. And if we had troops, he would do so under a declaration of war.

COSTELLO: All right, I have to end it here. Austin Petersen, many thanks. I have breaking news to get to. Thanks for stopping by.

PETERSEN: Thanks for having me.

COSTELLO: I want to go directly to Capitol Hill and Manu Raju.

What do you have, Manu?

All right, breaking news.

Do we have, Manu, or should -- there you are, Manu. What is it? Tell us.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Hey, Carol.

I -- we are hearing from a source familiar with Marco Rubio's decision that he will seek re-election to his Senate seat. This is a decision that he -- sort of reversing his pledge. Remember, when he ran for president, he said very clearly that he was not going to run for his Senate seat. He said that I'll be a private citizen come January. I want to focus exclusively on my presidential ambitions. But -- but after that, he dropped out of the race in mid-March. He came under -- he came back to the Senate, started to dig into his work and Republican leaders started to lobby him to run for his Senate seat instead because they were worried that the current crop of candidates just wouldn't win. And this is a critical seat. This is something that could affect the balance of -- the Senate balance. It could flip to the -- the Democrats if Florida does go to the Democrats in the fall.

So what we are hearing is that Rubio has made a decision. He's going to run. And we can expect an announcement probably later today. So this is a big development in the race for the Senate.

[09:55:10] Also a big development in Marco Rubio's future. Yesterday I had a chance to talk to him. He was very evasive about it. He seemed torn, very difficult personal decision, but it seems that he has made that decision and we expect that -- to hear from him very shortly.

Carol.

COSTELLO: Well, I can understand why it would be a difficult decision, right? He just got out of a very bitter campaign for the Republican nomination, right? And also, isn't one of his good friends running for his seat in Florida?

RAJU: Yes, that's right, it's Carlos Lopez-Cantera, the lieutenant government. But Lopez-Cantera actually said that he would step aside if Rubio decided to run. And that's what it looks like that he's probably going to end up doing. Now, Rubio will still have a primary challenger. At least two candidates are going to stay in that race, and that includes Carlos Beruff, who is a businessman who's got a lot of money. He's been self-financing this race. Also Todd Wilcox, another businessman who is running. But Beruff actually may -- it may cause some pain for Rubio. But Rubio will be the heavy favorite in a primary, which is in August. The question is, in the general election, if Democrats get their favorite candidates, Patrick Murphy, the congressman, it will be a tough race.

Now, a Quinnipiac poll out today had Rubio ahead in that race against Patrick Murphy, but, still, there's a lot of money -- Florida's a very expensive state. And with Trump at the top of the ticket, who knows what will happen in Florida. It's going to be a tough race for Rubio, but, you know, it sounds like that he's ready to -- to battle in the fall.

COSTELLO: I was out there during the height of Senator Rubio's campaign, and I was at a campaign rally and very few people attended. It seemed like they were disenfranchised with their candidate and this was a rally in Marco Rubio's own district. So are those feelings over among the electorate?

RAJU: Well, that's -- you know, that's certainly the -- an issue going forward. Look, he lost Florida in a very resounding manner to Donald Trump, and that was in the primary. Now, it's much different in the Senate race. The dynamics are much different. But it's still going to be difficult. And he's going to have to answer a lot of questions, particularly, will he commit to serving six years in the Senate if he were to win his seat? Yesterday when I asked him that in the hallways, he dodged that question. He said maybe when I make my decision, I'll answer that question then.

But that's going to be a big question for him forward, will he keep that pledge? So a lot of questions that he'll have to answer, whether -- as well as why he reversed his pledge to drop out of the Senate and retire and become a private citizen. So -- and he missed a lot of votes, missed a lot of hearings. He was hit on that pretty significantly in the presidential run. He's probably going to be hit about that again in his Senate race. So, again, this is a tough race. He's a favorite. But Republican

leaders have a reason to be happy because this gives them a very good chance, a much better chance of holding the seat and potentially holding the Senate majority.

COSTELLO: All right, Manu Raju, breaking news, Senator Marco Rubio is going to run again for his Senate seat in the state of Florida. He bowed to the pressure of his friends out there in Florida. And we'll see what happens.

The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)