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U.K's Leave Campaigners Backpedal Promises; Evangelical Preacher Calls Trump "Baby Christian"; Some Victims' Families Question Orlando Police Response. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired June 27, 2016 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:30:00] NED RYAN, CEO, AMERICAN MAJORITY: The thing to remember about the Leave Campaign and Brexit is it's a national referendum. They have no governmental authority. So I think three things people are focusing on and saying they're back-pedaling on. One is that 350 million a week, which is probably closer to 250 million a week that was probably being sent to the E.U.

Also, immigration and Article 50. I think what the Leave Campaign was about is the fact the English people said enough is enough, we want to have accountability, we want people directly elected by us making decisions on how money is spent and what our immigration policy is.

So when people say they're back-pedaling or they're moving away, the Leave Campaign didn't have governmental authority to make policy. These were viewed as suggestions or potentials. Maybe they would spend 350 million a week on national health services, maybe they'd spend it on something else. But the whole premise of the Leave Campaign was bring back accountability, how money is spent, who makes immigration policy for Great Britain and that was successful.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: On that note, Trump, Amanda, is attributing the outcome of the E.U. referendum to many of the same factors propelling his presidential run, saying, quote, "They are angry over people coming into the country and taking over." Many say the vote to leave was driven by fear and xenophobia. Do you see similarities in the U.S.?

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Sure. Personally, I'm wary a vote for leave was a vote for xenophobia or these people were uneducated, en masse. I think it should largely be interpreted as a vote to reestablish national sovereignty. And that's something you see a dynamic happening here as well.

But all politicians, whether you're a supporter of the Leave Campaign, whether you're Donald Trump, Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, if you can get away with passing some kind of policy, mandate, referendum, without having to commit yourself to the hard details where you can get hung up, they'll do that.

This is like pass it to find out what's in it. Like what Nancy Pelosi said about Obamacare. It isn't until you get into the details that people can get uncertain. But it's not like the Remain Campaign didn't try. They tried to drive a fear-based campaign and that didn't detest the leave voters. They said we're not buying into the politics of fear, we're willing to undergo uncertainty, and that's dynamic you're seeing happening in the U.S. as well.

RYAN: Well, I --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Ned.

RYAN: No. I would agree with Amanda on some of these points but, again, Brexit and the Leave Campaign was about people reasserting their right to self-government. In some ways, and what you could make see parallels between Brexit and some of the Trump phenomenon, is people saying enough of a ruling class. Again, with European Union, unelected bureaucrats in Brussels making decisions that have national implications, and where people felt in the U.S. that there is something of the a ruling class in the United States, detached for the American people, not looking out for their best interests, you can see parallels but saying apples to apples is going too far.

BALDWIN: Hillary Clinton has weighed in on this and she is blasting Trump's response. I'm not sure if we have sound. I'll wait for my producer to tell me. We don't have sound.

But she's blasting him, and called him out for promoting his golf courses in Scotland and jumping on this bandwagon late in the game. Do you think this is fair criticism?

CARPENTER: I think it is. Donald Trump had a true leadership moment. By fat, he happened to be in Scotland where this big moment was press conference talking about sprinklers and amenities at the resort. He got around talking about in the Q&A, but the fact that he didn't know how to seize this moment, it plays into his favor. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama were on the losing side of this issue. And the fact that Donald Trump couldn't better explain why that was happening because in moments like this, of big uncertainty, people look for their leaders, elected officials, for an explanation of what's happening, for guidance. And Trump hasn't provided by they yet.

BALDWIN: Amanda Carpenter, Ned Ryan, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

RYAN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Up next on this Monday. Is Donald Trump a "baby Christian"? That's what founder of evangelical Christian group Focus on the Family called him. What does he mean by that? We'll discuss.

Plus, some families of the Orlando victims now questioning if police waited too long to storm that nightclub. New details about the horrific moments inside the massacre.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:38:50] BALDWIN: You know Donald Trump is a businessman, a reality TV star, and now the presumptive Republican nominee for president, but what about a born-again Christian? Evangelical leader, Dr. James Dobson, is praising Trump for committing to his faith, but he also characterized Trump as a "baby Christian." Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. JAMES DOBSON, FOUNDER, FOCUS ON THE FAMILY (voice-over): And he did accept the relationship with Christ. I know the person who led him to Christ. And that's fairly recent. I believe he really made a commitment but he's a baby Christian. We all need to be praying for him, especially if there's a possibility of him being our next chief executive officer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joining me now is the man behind that interview, Pastor Michael Anthony. He is the founder and president of the blog "God Factor," and an award-winning Bible teacher.

First off, baby Christian, some critics are skeptical of Trump's recent focus on his faith and see his recent meeting with evangelicals as nothing more than a campaign tactic. What do you think, Pastor?

[14:40:00] MICHAEL ANTHONY, FOUNDER & PRESIDENT, GOD FACTOR BLOG & BIBLE TEACHER: Pamela, first of all, thanks so much for the opportunity to be with you. Appreciate the privilege.

It's a good question. I don't think that that's something that I can personally answer and I think that's a question for Mr. Trump to answer.

BALDWIN: So Dobson said we need to cut Trump slack since he didn't grow up like many evangelicals. Do you agree with that?

ANTHONY: Well, I think the wisdom of what Dr. Dobson is saying is simply this -- I can identify it in my own life. If Mr. Trump recently gave his life to Christ, and I don't know, some Christians' transformation is more like a Crockpot. Mine was like that. Others are more like a microwave. In other words, sometimes there are areas of our lives that change very rapidly very quickly and in other instances, like my own life, when I first started to get this Jesus thing, it took a while, so I think time tells whether or not there's a genuiness there in what happened with Mr. Trump. And I think that's what Dr. Dobson was alluding to in his comment.

BALDWIN: And of course, in the wake of this, Paul Manafort is staying mum on Dobson's revelation of Trump being a baby Christian. In fact, he refused to answer questions Sunday on Trump's faith, but he touted support from evangelical leaders. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL MANAFORT, CAMPAIGN MANAGER, DONALD TRUMP PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: I'm not going to speak to Donald Trump and his embrace of religion. You talk to him about that. I will say however that evangelical leaders that have been a part of the Christian movement in the United States came together last week and showed overwhelming support for Mr. Trump. And frankly, in my 40 years in politics, I've never seen such a broad base of support within that community for one candidate. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Does Manafort's argument bolster of Trump's critics?

ANTHONY: I think you'd have to ask him. I think the whole issue that has come up here is bigger than Mr. Trump. I think it gives Americans everywhere around the country, at a very polarized time, an opportunity to do some self-examination, some soul searching ourselves in terms of where each of us stands in our relationship with Jesus Christ.

So my foray -- this whole interview happened by accident. I was there last week at the gathering and conversation with Donald Trump and Ben Carson, and there were many very famous people there. I really didn't deserve to be there. I have a radio program that's national, with four to five million listeners. So I simply approach Dr. Dobson to talk with him, asked him if he would be interested in being interviewed by me at some time. I said how about now, he said, yes. I had my smart phone and the rest is history, as they say.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: So you say that it's going to take some time to know if this is genuine. But Trump has really gone out there and publicly expressed criticism and skepticism about other candidates' faith. He attacked Ben Carson, Mitt Romney. He recently attacked Hillary Clinton, who is a well-known Methodist, over her faith. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & CEO, TRUMP ORGANIZATION: She's been in the public eye for years and years, and yet there's no -- there's nothing out there. It's like nothing out there. It's going to be an extension of Obama, but worse, because with Obama, you have the guard up. With Hillary, you don't, and it's going to be worse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Pastor, there seems to be a pattern. Is that fair for a Christian to do?

ANTHONY: I think you've asked an excellent question and I think everybody, once they accept Christ, people have a misunderstanding in our country in terms of a personal relationship with Christ. Some people want instantaneous change. And I think it's important to remember a few things that every single one of us is imperfect. That's not an excuse for Mr. Trump. That's between him and God, and that's not for any particular person to play the position of God. I think if anything, what needs to happen in our nation is a tremendous degree of humility across the board. I think the whole nation needs a bath, so to speak. We need a spiritual awakening in this country.

BALDWIN: Pastor Michael Anthony, thank you very much.

ANTHONY: Thank you. BALDWIN: Up next on this Monday, did police in Orlando do the right thing by waiting hours to storm the nightclub where 49 people were murdered? Some victims' family members are now speaking out. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:48:30] BALDWIN: We are getting horrifying new details on what it was like both inside and outside the Orlando nightclub the night 49 people were killed by a mass hooter. A survivor gave the "Wall Street Journal" a grisly account of what happened inside one of the restrooms where terrified club goers tried to hide. His article says, quote, "One woman couldn't squeeze into the stall, she pleaded please don't kill me. Mr. Lieva (ph) heard a shot and her body fell to the floor."

Meanwhile, newly released incident reports give us sense of what it was like for police. An Orange County sheriff's deputy said, quote, "Upon approaching the club, I heard multiple gunshots coming from the club. I observed individuals running out of the club covered in blood with gunshot wounds and many more in the parking lot also with gunshot wounds," end quote.

The ordeal lasted three hours, and some, including victims' relatives, have questioned whether police should have ended it sooner.

CNN law enforcement analyst, Harry Houck, joins me now. He's a retired New York police detective. We're also joined by CNN's Brian Todd.

Harry, I want to go with you first. Authorities have defended that standoff. Here's what the Orlando police chief said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN MIRA, CHIEF, ORLANDO POLICE DEPARTMENT: Upon the initial entry, there was no other gunfire until the hostage rescue operation took place. So during that three hours, I want to make sure everyone is clear about that, there was no gunfire. So during that time our officers were intermittently in and out of that club saving people, rescuing people from inside the club.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:50:10] BALDWIN: So it seems clear to me, Harry, that he was on the defensive there after people were criticizing the police for not going in sooner but at the same time they didn't say, look, we're going back to reassess what we could have done differently. What do you make of it?

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It's very easy to Monday morning quarterback police officers' action like this. But the fact is they were on the ground -- there was a fluid situation going on. They've got a guy cornered and the firing had stopped. Now, they had also retrieved information that maybe that he had some type of explosives so the fact is the officers have got to think what do we do? Do we hit this location and hit him hard right now. If he does have explosives will he detonate the explosives and police?

This is a tough decision for police to make. When they say firing is in longer going on, what they're ascertain if they're texting back and forth to people in the area, do you see any explosives. Do you see any explosive vests and then they're going to have to -- if the firing has stopped then they're going to try to talk this guy out.

BALDWIN: Of course, they're not only they're dealing with the notion he could be putting explosive vests on the victims.

Brian, an account a survivor gave may raise questions about the police response. Tell us about that.

BRIAN TODD, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, this is in the context of new questions being asked by relatives of victims who died inside the Pulse nightclub. They're raising the issue of whether the Orlando police maybe could have gone in sooner and possibly saved lives. The sister of victim, Eddy Justice, told us a short time ago on the phone that her brother who was in o of the two bathrooms where Omar Mateen shot several victims probably bled to death.

She said she believes if the police had gone in sooner he might have lived but the Orlando police, as we've been discussing, have consistently said this went from an active shooter situation to a hostage situation. For about three hours, there were no shots being fired, the police have said. So they had to engage Omar Mateen in dialogue to get him to release people.

Also today, there's an examination of the end of the standoff. We know at about 5:00 a.m. police tried an explosion to punch a hole in the side of the building. That explosive did not work. So a few minutes later they breached the building with an armored vehicle. But between the explosion and the breach some people were shot.

Here's a sound clip from Patience Carter, a victim in one of those bathrooms. She's talking about what happened after the explosion but before the breach. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATIENCE CARTER, ORLAND SHOOTING SURVIVOR: He said, "Hey, you," to someone on the floor inside the bathroom and shot them. Shot another person and then shot another person who happened to be directly behind me. After he rang off those last three shots, "Hey, you." Pow, pow, pow. They bust through the wall and they started engaging in gunfire after they told him, "Put your weapon down." He didn't. So they engaged in gunfire, they got him. They shot him dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TODD: So she is saying there were three people shot between that explosion and the final breach. Now the Orlando police, as we said, said they responded the best way they could have, that even when Mateen was barricaded in those bathrooms they were rescuing people.

Here's another thing, Pamela, that you and Harry were talking about, the complication right at the end of the standoff, the misinformation given to the police by Omar Mateen himself. Police say he told them he was going to strap explosives vest on hostages. He gave them a 15- minute deadline. We now know he didn't have vests but police had to act on that information. One veteran police chief told us, Pamela, that whatever police decided to go in after him he could have taken more people out right then. We'll have more on this today at 5:00 on "The Situation Room."

BALDWIN: We'll be watching for that.

Quickly, Harry, I talked to the SWAT team commander on the ground and I asked him what the strategy was to sit it out during this hostage situation when you have victims on the floor blooding to death in the bathrooms. He said, "Our tactics tell us when someone barricades and you're not sure what they're doing, it's best to take a step back, set up around him and reassessing what you're going to do."

Walk us through the purpose of those tactics in a situation like this.

HOUCK: That's what they did. You can see here the firing stopped and like we talked about before there was a possibility there were explosives also so you have to take a step back, you don't hear shots being fired so as far as you know people are not being killed. Now your hostages are alive as far as you're concerned. So what you basically do is take a step back and you'll get all the bosses, the chiefs, inspectors together, OK, what will be our next step? What is the next step that will save the most lives? That's the kind of action they took.

[14:55:04] BALDWIN: Harry Houck, Brian Todd, thank you very much. We do appreciate it.

Meantime, Senator Elizabeth Warren joining Hillary Clinton on the campaign trail today. Would she make a good V.P. pick? We'll make the case before and against.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Hello, I'm Pamela Brown, in today for Brooke Baldwin. Great to have you with us on this Monday.

One of the people being vetted to be Hillary Clinton's V.P. pick didn't hold back when she went on the attack against Donald Trump. Liberal firebrand and Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren joined Clinton on the trail for their first joint appearance. Elizabeth Warren, who's made speaking out against Wall Street one of her main talking points, unleashed a blistering attack on Trump before a crowd in Cincinnati.