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Police Shooting in Minnesota Live-Streamed; Discussion of Police Shootings. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired July 07, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: I want to turn now to CNN's Rosa Flores. She's on the ground in St. Paul, Minnesota.

You saw that very moving press conference she gave there, Rosa.

Rosa, you're going to us now the final moments, sadly, of Philando Castile's life.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, let me start by setting the scene here.

What you see behind me are people gathered in unity with heavy hearts, but very emotional about this officer-involved shooting. You can see behind me, they're clapping. They have had speakers not only speak about their experiences, but also name other people who have been shot and killed at the hands of police in shootings in other states around the country.

But let's get to why they're here. Behind me, you will see there is a sign that says justice. Justice in this particular case is what they're asking for Philando Castile. Now, we know that his girlfriend caught most the aftermath of this shooting on camera.

She live-streamed this on Facebook. That's how this got so much attention so quickly. We want to take you there so you can listen to it in its entirety, but I want to set the scene for you, because, I want to make sure that you know that this video is graphic.

What you're going to see is this individual being very bloody. The individual shooting the video is sitting on the passenger seat. Her 4-year-old daughter sitting in the back seat. Roll the tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND REYNOLDS, GIRLFRIEND: Stay with me.

We got pulled over for a busted taillight in the back and the police (EXPLETIVE DELETED) -- he's covered. He's killed my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) boyfriend. He's licensed -- he's carried -- he's licensed to carry. He was trying to get out his I.D. and his wallet out of his pocket and he let the officer know that he was -- he had a firearm and he was reaching for his wallet.

And the officer just shot him in his arm. We're waiting for...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just keep your hands on the wheel.

REYNOLDS: I will, sir, no worries. I will. He just shot his arm off. We got pulled over on Larpenteur.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I told him not to reach for it. I told him to get his hand off it.

REYNOLDS: He had -- you told him to get his I.D., sir, his driver's license. Oh, my God, please don't tell me he's dead.

Please don't tell me my boyfriend just went like that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep your hands where they are.

REYNOLDS: Yes I will, sir. I will keep my hands where they are.

Please don't tell me this, lord. Please, Jesus, don't tell me that he's gone. Please don't tell me that he's gone. Please, officer, don't tell me that you just did this to him.

You shot four bullets into him, sir. He was just getting his license and registration, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get the female passenger out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exit the car right now with your hands up. Let me see your hands. Exit now. Keep 'em up. Keep 'em up!

REYNOLDS: Where's my daughter? You go my daughter?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Face away from me and walk backward. Walk backwards towards me. Keep walking. Keep walking. Keep walking. Keep walking. Get on your knees. Get on your knees. Ma'am, you're just being detained right now until we get this all sorted out, okay?

REYNOLDS: They threw my phone Facebook. Please don't tell me lord, Jesus. Please don't tell me.

Please don't tell me my boyfriend is gone. Please don't tell me he is gone. Please, Jesus, no. Please, no. Please, no. Don't let him be gone, lord.

[15:05:15]

It was in his wallet. His license and registration. You told him to get it, sir. You told him. He tried to tell you he was licensed to carry and he was going to take it off. Please don't tell me my boyfriend's gone. He don't deserve this, please. He's a good man.

He works for St. Paul Public Schools. He doesn't have no records of anything. He's never been to jail, anything. He's not a gang member, anything.

(INAUDIBLE) and that you cover him Lord. That you allow him to still be here with us Lord. Still with me (INAUDIBLE) Lord. Please Lord wrap your arms around him. Please Lord make sure that he's OK, breathing Lord. (INAUDIBLE). Please, lord, you know our rights, Lord. You know we are innocent people, lord. We are innocent people. We are innocent. My four-year-old (INAUDIBLE).

Could you please get my phone for me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will talk to my supervisor.

REYNOLDS: It's right there it's on the floor. It's right there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could you just stand here, sweetie?

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: I want to get my mommy's purse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will take care of that, OK? Just stand right here for me.

REYNOLDS: Stay right here. Before you take the handcuffs off of me can you (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you search her before (INAUDIBLE)? I can't it's got to be processed, OK?

REYNOLDS: Come here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that your phone?

REYNOLDS: We're in the back seat of the police car.

Phil's sister, call me. The police just shot my boyfriend for no apparent reason. My phone is about to die. They shot him. He shot him three times because we had a busted taillight.

He asked him for license and registration. He told him that man, that it was in his wallet, but he had a pistol on him, because he's licensed to carry. And the officer told him don't move. And as he was putting his hands back up, the officer shot him in his arm about four or five times.

I'm on Larpenteur and Fry. Whoever can come to Larpenteur and Fry, that's where I'm at. I'm going to need a ride home. We're on Larpenteur and Fry. (INAUDIBLE) if you can come to Larpenteur and Fry, we're right here in Roseville.

We got the Roseville police. They got me handcuffed. My phone is about to die. I'm on Larpenteur and Fry. The Roseville Police Department just shot my boyfriend. They shot him four times. He's licensed to carry. We had a busted taillight. And we had some weed in the car. That's about it.

It was a Chinese police officer that shot him. He's Chinese. He's about 5'5'', 5'6-1/2'', heavy-set guy. He asked him for his license and registration, which was in the back of his pocket, because he keeps his wallet in his pocket. Then, as he went to reach, he let the officer know before he was

reaching that he had a firearm on him, and before he can let the officer know anything, the officer took off shots, about four or five rounds were shot. And my boyfriend, I don't know what condition he's in. I don't know if he's OK or if he's not OK.

I'm in the back seat of the police van car, in the back seat of the police car handcuffed. I need a ride. I'm on Larpenteur and Fry. They've got machine guns pointed.

Don't be scared. My daughter just witnessed this. The police just shot him for no apparent reason, no reason at all.

[15:10:07]

They asked for license and registration. That's the police officer over there that did it with the black on. I can't really do (EXPLETIVE DELETED) because they have me handcuffed.

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: It's OK, mommy.

REYNOLDS: I can't believe they just did this. I'm (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: It's OK. I'm right here with you.

REYNOLDS: Please, lord, you all, please pray for us, Jesus, please, you all.

I ask everybody on Facebook, everybody that's watching, everybody that's tuned in, please pray for us. Sister, I know I just dropped you off, but I need you to pick me up. I need (INAUDIBLE) to call my phone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What do you say? Excuse me.

There's so much to discuss here I want to discuss now with Charles Coleman Jr., he is a civil rights attorney. David Katz is the CEO of Global Security Group, who is also a federal certified tactical and firearms instructor. Excuse me. Sorry. And then there's Peter Rosenberg, who is radio host on Hot 97 ESPN Radio's "Michael Kay Show."

We just witnessed someone dying. What do you say, Peter?

PETER ROSENBERG, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I mean, we you know, this is on the heels of what happened in Baton Rouge the Alton Sterling.

And I get to work today, this morning to the morning show on Hot 97, not knowing about this yet, because I had gone to bed last night, just concerned with that, and then you see this. And all I can think about is that of all the things that it feels like we have gotten used to over the last couple of years, seeing these situations where seemingly innocent people are killed by police officers, but this is really different.

This is different.

LEMON: This really brings it home, because when you usually hear about the aftermath or you see the video from a dash cam. You don't see something this personal, a firsthand account of someone in real time. And she was -- posted that on Facebook live. This is happening live.

And so you see the heartache, that these are human beings. It is not just numbers. These are people who are losing loved ones.

CHARLES COLEMAN JR., CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: I think it is important to remember because oftentimes what we have happen is we have human beings that are turned into hashtags overnight.

And this really brought it home, as you said, because what so many people don't realize is that these are fathers. These are brothers. These are sons. Alton Sterling was the father of five people. There was a baby in the car.

LEMON: There was a baby in the car.

COLEMAN: There was a baby in the car in Minnesota.

Eric Garner was a father. We oftentimes don't realize the extent of broken lives that are affected by violence against innocent citizens, because I want to be clear about something. People may say, well, there was weed in the car or Alton Sterling had probation and he shouldn't have had a gun. But at the time that these encounters happened with law enforcement, these are innocent people.

LEMON: There are no perfect victims. I'm not perfect. You're not perfect. No one in this room is perfect.

Everyone has indiscretions, transgressions. Everyone has things that they maybe are not so proud of. Everyone has -- most people have gotten into a car, maybe had a little bit too much to drink. And weed? Come on, what is weed now?

ROSENBERG: But there is what happens. Now we end up in a situation...

LEMON: But let me finish.

And then you end up talking about the victim's record, which is what I brought up last night in Baton Rouge, and I brought it up for a reason, because no one is perfect. Everyone has an issue. And all we have to look to is in New York City, recently, I don't know if you saw this, all of the kids who were arrested for the cocaine bust at the Duane Reade, all of them very wealthy white kids or whatever.

But they don't pull out their criminal records and talk about their history, right.

ROSENBERG: Absolutely. LEMON: But we don't do in these cases. These are human beings.

I'm sorry I'm going off on a rant, but this is absolutely ridiculous, and this is what many people -- a lot of people are angry. You're not African-American, but you are on the radio and you got in trouble today a little bit because you were angry.

But African-Americans are feeling a malaise today specifically about this. If someone can be upset and mad and sign a petition over a gorilla being killed, why aren't people mad and upset over black people being killed by police officers?

[15:15:07]

Surely, there are problems in the black community. But one does not negate the other. We can deal with all of those problems. This is indeed a problem as well.

But go ahead.

DAVID KATZ, FOUNDER AND CEO, GLOBAL SECURITY GROUP: There are a lot of issues here. This shooting is certainly a tragedy. There is no doubt. And I personally am mindful that every human being had a mother, had a childhood, represents thousands and thousands of hours of care and love. Everyone has a family.

There is no question about that. And every police officer, I believe, thinks the same thing. In this case, you have two separate issues. You have -- basically, the first issue is, is any of this justifiable legally? What it's tragic or avoidable is a separate issue.

We all heard cases where a police officer accidentally or shoots a 12- year-old kid with a toy gun. It's not..

LEMON: Four times?

KATZ: It's tragic. Having been in that circumstance, one shots becomes four shots becomes one shot if you are in fear of your life.

How could this -- this looks very, very difficult to justify. How could it be justifiable? Police officer pulls the guy over, runs his tag, knows he has a pistol permit. Now you are approaching an armed guy. Shouldn't be that -- should maybe raise you up a little bit. Approach the car, ask for your license and registration.

Now, according to the girlfriend, he volunteers, Mr. Castile, volunteers the fact that he's armed. If the police officer says just keep your hands where I can see them, don't move. And if he does this -- hang on a second. I got one -- at that point...

COLEMAN: That's not what they're saying happened. They're saying the opposite.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Hold on. Hold on. Let me just get with you. You're not saying that this doesn't look bad?

KATZ: Of course it looks bad. And, by the way, this may be a police officer who just overreacted, was acting in a way that is not consistent with training or the law.

LEMON: Not an excuse, though.

KATZ: Not an excuse. What I'm suggesting is I don't -- for me to be in his shoes, I have to see what he sees and -- if I tell a guy, listen, you have a weapon, don't make a move, keep your hands where I can see them, because you know I have a license, what do I do?

Now, by the way, the answer -- one of the answers is, better training, better positions tactically. It gives you more time. Was this avoidable? I believe yes. Was it justified? I can't say.

(CROSSTALK)

COLEMAN: Here's why I have a problem accepting that at face value.

While I can concede that officers of the law have an incredibly difficult job with respect to the amount of discretion that they have to employ, and the split-second decisions that they have to make, when you talk about overreaction, it seems like we're only having these sorts of conversations about overreaction when it comes to a certain group of people.

Dylann Roof can walk into a church, kill nine people. He's armed to the teeth. And he gets escorted to Burger King after he's apprehended without a scratch. He goes to trial because that's what our system says will happen. Individuals can bomb a marathon in Boston, be hunted down by police, ultimately apprehended, they go to -- one of them goes to trial because that's what our system says happens.

Aurora, Colorado, man shoots up a movie theater. He's apprehended. Sets explosives throughout his entire home. He's apprehended, goes to trial, because that's what our system says happens.

There's no overreaction then.

KATZ: So, what do you...

(CROSSTALK)

COLEMAN: There's no overreaction when it comes to those individuals.

(CROSSTALK)

COLEMAN: Hold on. Just let me finish. The only difference that I can discern in those instances is that those officers had to be well aware that there would be consequences for overreactions.

And there are no consequences, there's no accountability when you talk about the law and violations of black lives.

(CROSSTALK) KATZ: Of course there are. By the way, most people shot by police are white.

COLEMAN: That's a percentage number.

(CROSSTALK)

ROSENBERG: Most people are white. Most people in America are white.

(CROSSTALK)

COLEMAN: Exactly.

(CROSSTALK)

KATZ: We can go into a lot of statistics that are very, very informative on both sides.

But the issue here is the only way to look at this is at the moment this incident happened, what was in the police officer's mind? I'm not suggesting this guy was justified. I'm suggesting the other incident in Baton Rouge, much more justifiable. Different case entirely.

When there are situations, I have sat in this chair a million times and will tell you the cop was wrong. A million times, I have said it.

LEMON: If you have sat in this chair a million times, I have sat in this chair 20 million times, and I have only covered one time where there was a white kid was killed by a police officer.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I have only -- I'm just saying. I'm just saying.

KATZ: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Go ahead, Peter.

(CROSSTALK)

ROSENBERG: It just seems like -- I'm just speaking for what I hear and what I see.

It seems like there is an issue, for whatever reason, a lot of officers being scared of black people.

LEMON: Fear.

ROSENBERG: Let's just call it what it feels like. That's what it appears to be. I have never -- I don't understand it.

COLEMAN: Law enforcement officers in America have weaponized blackness. And I hate to say that because it sounds very bold, but it is very true.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You don't hate to say it. Say it.

COLEMAN: Blackness has been weaponized to the point that we, as a people, exhibit a higher threat to law enforcement in law enforcement interactions than people from other cultures.

ROSENBERG: Why is that? Why is that?

(CROSSTALK)

[15:20:02]

LEMON: That's the result of the country, the history of this country. It is also a result probably of crime. I know that's where you're going.

You are going to say most of the crime is committed by African- Americans.

(CROSSTALK)

KATZ: The simple fact is, unfortunately...

LEMON: But police officers are trained -- that's what police officers are trained to do, to deal with people...

(CROSSTALK)

KATZ: You're exactly right. Now, my point in this case, and, by the way, in Baton Rouge, although one I believe is justifiable, one...

COLEMAN: I don't see how that one was justifiable either.

(CROSSTALK)

KATZ: Wait a second. But we were talking off set about an incident that happened to me that involved one of my personal -- I was a young agent. Had a guys hands up.

ROSENBERG: Your situation seem justifiable.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: No, no, let's continue to talk about this, because the -- listen, and don't get me wrong. I'm from Baton Rouge. I know most of the players involved. And if I don't know them, they're connected to my family.

So I know that this man had a criminal record. Again, whatever.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Police officers are trained to de-escalate situations. And as I'm speaking to people who are high up in law enforcement in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, they are saying that it looks bad for the officers.

The officers appear at this point, unless something else comes out, to have acted too aggressively. And the language that they used with this man, you're dead, and possibly using other racial language, at this point, unless something else comes out, those officers are in big trouble.

KATZ: OK.

You are responding to a man with a gun call. So as you are rolling up on the scene, you know this guy, as far you know, has a firearm that he's already brandished at one person. We agree so far. You give him lawful arrest commands. He is not complying.

They try the stun gun. For whatever reason, that was not operational. The way they took the guy down, very bad. There's much better ways to do that. And, by the way, why rush? You got time. The guy's not going anywhere. OK? Take your time, take him down right.

But now he goes to the ground. Both weapons are holstered until one of them says he starts -- he's got a gun. How does that happen? Probably they are wrestling.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Didn't they know he had a gun from the...

(CROSSTALK)

KATZ: Wait a minute. Hold on a second. Now you know. But, by the way, and I have said this before. I don't believe Mr. Sterling was trying to pull weapon on the cops.

What I think might have happened, he might have said -- try to get that gun, throw it away, get it off his person. For whatever reason, at that time, he had the gun on him. The police officer knows it. How does he -- he feels the pocket, he knows it is a gun.

If that hand goes into that pocket for any reason, what do you want them to do?

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: OK. We're going to talk about that next.

But let me just say, I am one who always says that you should comply with police officers, especially as a man of color.

(CROSSTALK)

KATZ: And I tell my kids the same thing.

LEMON: Officer, why are you stopping me? Yes. Yes, officer, or whatever.

Now, I am an American. I shouldn't have to do that. I shouldn't have to be yes, sir-ing anybody. Right. I'm a grown you know what man.

KATZ: You don't have to say sir.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But I do it because I want to stay alive. That's why I do it. I shouldn't have to.

Now, my friends, my white counterparts, don't do that. They speak to police officers in a way that I would never speak, in a million years do.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: And that is the reality of it. I have to do that because I want to stay alive.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Let me finish. Let me finish.

As accomplished as I am and a man of color on television who are -- recognizable to many people, I have to do that, because I don't want to be shot and I don't want to be killed. And I am someone who is never in trouble. The only time I'm ever stopped is for something stupid, riding a skateboard on the sidewalk.

That's the kind of crap I'm stopped for, not for anything else.

KATZ: OK. But...

LEMON: And when that happens, yes, officer, how may I help you?

KATZ: I say the same thing. And I tell my kids to say the same thing.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: And that's what the guy in Minnesota -- they said his mother said she taught him the same thing, and he is dead today.

COLEMAN: Here's the thing. Here's the thing. And Don brings up a very good point with there.

This notion that compliance and respectability can save someone's life in an encounter of police is not the reality for black men in this country. That is a problem.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But I still say -- I still say -- and I know people will get upset -- if an officer stops you, you do what he says.

(CROSSTALK)

COLEMAN: There is no disagreement there. (CROSSTALK)

LEMON: And you do it. You shouldn't have to, but in this environment, to stay alive, you should do that.

COLEMAN: There is no question that, from a practical standpoint, I mentor young men in Brooklyn. I tell them the very same thing. We want you alive. We want you around, so we need to you conduct yourself in a certain way when you're dealing with law enforcement, even though that should not be.

LEMON: Yes.

COLEMAN: But really quickly, I want to make this point.

We are making each and every one of these situations about the facts, did this person do this, did this person not, et cetera, et cetera. Those are decisions that should be made by a jury. Those are decisions that should be made in a criminal court of law, because that's what our system dictates.

These are not decisions to be made after the fact as an officer has decided to take matters into his own hands and kill someone.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I have gone over -- I have gone at least five or 10 minutes over. I'm going to be in big trouble here.

But I want to say, the president is also weighing in on this. And I will give you a little bit before we go to break.

The president of the United States weighing in on this. He said -- he released a statement saying: "All Americans should be deeply troubled by the fatal shootings of Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and Philando Castile in Falcon Heights, Minnesota. We've seen such tragedies far too many times, and our hearts go out to the families and communities who've suffered such a painful losses."

[15:25:02]

Then he talks about the Department of Justice, how they have opened investigations. He also talks about the task force that he initiated. And then he says, "In the meantime," OK -- and this is very important, I think -- "all Americans should recognize the anger, frustration and grief that so many Americans are feeling, feelings that are being expressed in peaceful protests and vigils. Michelle and I share those feelings. Rather than fall into a predictable pattern of division and political posturing, let's reflect on what we can do better. Let's come together as a nation and keep faith with one another in order to ensure a future where all of children know that it their lives matter" -- the president of the United States.

We will discuss on the other side of this break. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: Back-to-back shootings in two days, two black men dead at the

hands of police.

When the latest news of Minnesota broke, America was just coming to grips with what happened barely 24 hours earlier in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

For the first time, we can show you the faces of the officers accused in the shooting death of