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Five Police Officers Killed in Dallas. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired July 08, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

ANWAR SANDERS, NEW MEXICO POLICE DEPARTMENT: I'm a victim of both sides. I'm a victim of being a black man. Off-duty, I don't look like I do in uniform.

But, in uniform, I go through the same kind of racial -- being discriminated against. I mean, it's just so -- it's hard to explain being spit at and cursed at and called the N-word and all those things all the time, every day, just because I'm black.

And it's -- it's both sides. It's just so -- it's a lot to talk about.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: When you're not in uniform, do you fear police officers?

SANDERS: I do.

Yesterday, I forgot my wallet and I had my gun. And I was -- I was pretty nervous. Yesterday was a different kind of day, though, because we had those shootings and everything. But you have to remember how these shootings make officers feel.

You have got the shootings and then you have these retaliation shootings. How does an officer feel now? Now he feels like everybody who walks up to him to just the -- on a regular basis to ask him a question might be about to ambush and shoot him. So it's like we're in there -- it's a hard time. This is a hard week.

LEMON: So, there are people who are watching. And I have, you know, people have e-mailed me. People on social media. They don't believe it exists. They believe that it's just people who are not following the rules. Some believe that African-Americans are making this up, that this problem is one that just exists the minds of black men, Anwar. Speak to that.

SANDERS: No, it's real.

And it's so hard to be a non-black man and understand. You know, you won't understand what being racialized feels like unless it's happened to you. I know when somebody is being racist to me. I know when the person next to me feels uncomfortable. I know when I'm making a traffic stop and somebody, they're just being racist. They call the department to complain and say I was scary, but they just didn't like being pulled over by a black guy. These are things that you can't ever understand unless you walk around

in this skin. So, it's very real, and you can't speak to it and understand it unless you're a black person.

LEMON: Yes.

Van, thanks for sitting by. I know Anwar needed that moment. I think it was important for him to get that out there.

Anwar, we're going to have you back on. I appreciate your candor. We feel for you and for your fellow officers today and for their families, and we thank you for your service. Thank you, sir.

SANDERS: Thank you.

LEMON: Thanks, Van.

SANDERS: Yes.

LEMON: Top of the hour, as a matter of fact, just a little past the top. It's two minutes after. You're watching CNN. I'm Don Lemon. Brooke is off today.

This is CNN's special live coverage of a national tragedy that's been playing out in front of our very eyes, the deaths of five officers at the hands of a mass murderer who according to police went on a hunt for white officers.

And this is just in to the CNN NEWSROOM. Law enforcement sources tell CNN that they now believe that the killer worked alone. The chief of the Dallas Police Department had originally suggested it was possible others helped him, but they're now saying they believe he worked alone.

The killer's name, the chief says, is Micah Xavier Johnson, an Army Reservist who served in Afghanistan. They say he used sniper tactics and killed the Dallas officers as they were downtown protecting protesters. The gunfire sent demonstrators and others scattering.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CORY HUGHES, PROTESTER ORGANIZER: Blacks, whites, Latinos, everybody, there was a mixed community here protesting, and this just came out of nowhere.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody is really armed to the teeth.

HUGHES: As a matter of fact, we were towards the end of the protest when the shots started firing off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Move back! Get back! Let's go. Let's go. Get back. Get back. Let's go, Let's go, Let's go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of a sudden, I saw and heard six to eight shots. It looked like two officers went down. I didn't have time to get a good look. I ran back. And I was screaming, run, run, run. Active shooter, active shooter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: A total of 12 officers were hit, 12 officers. So far, just a few of the fallen have been identified.

Transit officer and war veteran Brent Thompson, 43 years old. Patrick Zamarripa, a member of the Dallas force, was a father of two and also a war veteran.

The police chief said after negotiations failed, tactical teams send in a robot with a bomb and detonated it to kill him. According to the chief, during negotiations, the mass killer revealed he was angry over the very reason that inspired the protest his violence cut short, the recent shooting deaths of Africa African-American men by police.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE CHIEF: The suspect said he was upset about black live matter. He said he was upset about the recent police shootings. The suspect said he was upset at white people.

[15:05:00]

The suspect stated he wanted to kill white people, especially white officers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I want to bring in now CNN's Ed Lavandera, who is in the hometown of the gunman. That's Mesquite, Texas. We have learned new information about the shooter, the lone shooter with a military background, Ed.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right.

And, as you mentioned, served a year tour of duty in Afghanistan, but all focus has been here on his home, where neighbors tell us he lived with his mother. Law enforcement teams have been throughout the night. In fact, one neighbor told us that they started seeing law enforcement officers arriving here in this neighborhood just after 1:00 in the morning Central time.

That was in the midst of when all of that standoff was going on with Dallas officers in downtown Dallas. They were already here at his home and in his neighborhood. Throughout the morning, we have seen a number of law enforcement agencies, Dallas police as well, as being assisted by ATF agents, wearing bulletproof jackets.

They were carrying out several bags of evidence throughout the morning that we saw here. But in speaking with neighbors, Don, that anger that we have heard alluded to so far that Micah Johnson had toward white people and white officers, that is not something that we have heard from neighbors here.

Now, however, there aren't many neighbors who say they knew Micah Johnson terribly, terribly well. But, obviously, we're digging and looking for any kind of clues or signs of what was going on in this man's life that led him into downtown Dallas last night.

So all of that work continues here in this neighborhood, where many people are still stunned by this news.

LEMON: Ed Lavandera, thank you very much.

All right, everyone, I want you to take a seat and listen to this and watch this interview. Recognize that man? That's Thomas Jackson.

He's the former police chief in Ferguson, Missouri, which, of course, was the scene of its own violent protests after the fatal police shooting of Michael Brown.

Thank you so much for joining us, Chief. I guess I can still call you Chief Jackson.

THOMAS JACKSON, FORMER FERGUSON, MISSOURI, POLICE CHIEF: You can call me Tom.

LEMON: Yes.

So, listen, I have been wanting to interview you for a while. I have been trying to get an interview with you for a while. I'm so glad that you finally have agreed to come on CNN. You have largely stayed out of the spotlight since you stepped down in Ferguson. Why did you want to speak out now?

JACKSON: This is such a terrible tragedy. And my heart goes out to the entire law enforcement family around the country. You know, Chief Brown got the worst phone call a chief could possibly get, and, you know, five officers killed, another seven wounded. It's unlike anything I have ever heard of before in my lifetime.

And it's time to stop the rhetoric that I think is to some degree fomenting this violence. This is one individual. And he is responsible for his act, he alone is responsible for what he did. No one else is to blame for these murders and these vicious shootings.

But I think the dialogue around the country needs to change.

LEMON: More specifically, what do you mean? What do you mean the rhetoric and the dialogue?

JACKSON: So, when we're talking about law enforcement-involved shootings, I think we need to sit back and let the process take its course, so that we don't jump to conclusions. We don't make accusations or come to some decision that may not be accurate.

You know, each law enforcement involved shooting or deadly encounter stands on its own. It's not part of some widespread conspiracy among law enforcement officers. In fact, I think African-Americans account for about a quarter of the deadly encounters with police officers.

So what I would like to see is just slow down, take a step back. See what's causing these deadly encounters, because we always study them. We always review them. We look into what happened, what could have been done differently, what could have prevented it. If it's a bad shooting, and it's a bad cop, there needs to be consequences for that.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: OK. So let me jump in there. Let's have a conversation, then, OK, because you talked for a long time, so let me get in.

JACKSON: Sorry. Sorry.

LEMON: No, no, no don't -- need to apologize. So we have had several police officers crying on the air today. One of them was Harry Houck, who is a tough -- our tough guy, a tough top guy here at CNN. He's a contributor here.

And then we had Anwar Sanders, who was just on, a black police officer. Now, one of them said the bravery of the officers who were out there, he felt for them, and he felt -- you know, his heart broke for their families and for them. The other one said there's an issue when it comes to racism in police departments around the country. He believes it's institutional. He is also a police officer.

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He says, when he's not in uniform, he fears police officers. How do you deal with that, Chief? That's a reality from both of those two gentlemen.

JACKSON: I heard him say that. And, of course, I can't identify with that. That's his experience.

But I don't know any police officers -- I have never known any good police officers who have wanted to go out and have violent encounters on duty. And any one that does shouldn't be in the job.

LEMON: You said good police officers.

JACKSON: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But there are bad police officers, correct?

JACKSON: Of course.

LEMON: Yes.

JACKSON: Of course, and they should be weeded out and held accountable if they do something wrong.

But, as it's been said many times today already, the vast majority of police officers just want to do the job and protect the public. They get into it for altruistic reasons. And killing somebody is the last thing that any of us want to do. LEMON: So when you see -- you know, let's be honest. The first thing

out of the chief's mouth this morning was, he said that he was upset over Black Lives Matter. He said that he wanted to kill white people, especially officers. He was upset over the shootings that happened in Baton Rouge and in Minnesota.

When you heard that, what did you think?

JACKSON: I thought that's a sick man, and which is what a lot of the people who do these mass shootings are. They're mentally ill.

That's not a reasonable attitude to have. And it's certainly not, you know, by any stretch, a reasonable response to having that attitude. But it's him alone. It's not -- it's not everybody. He is responsible for his actions and for the reasons which he clearly stated why he did it.

LEMON: Yes. How do you feel about the protesters?

JACKSON: Well, the protest, from what I understand about that...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: No, I mean, just in general, because the protesters played a big part in Ferguson. You were there. You had to deal with them. There had been protests over the last two years. It has grown. Black Lives Matter has become really a force to be reckoned with and especially has gained political clout.

What do you think of the Black Lives Matter protesters and the people who protest the police officers?

JACKSON: Well, any time the protesters are using violent or threatening language toward law enforcement, that's not a good thing. We hear them called peaceful protesters. But if they're threatening the police or saying the police need to be killed or fried up like bacon, that's not peaceful to law enforcement.

And that creates a tension and a conflict to the dialogue. As you know, in Ferguson, there were protesters that I talked to on a regular basis, you know, brought them water and umbrellas and things. And then there were ones that just didn't want any part of dialogue. They didn't want to hear about any solutions to problems that might exist.

They just wanted violence. And they wanted anarchy. So those are the ones that are really hard to deal with. But this protest in Dallas, that's how you should do it. They coordinated with law enforcement, with the community leaders. And, you know, they did it in a peaceful way. And it was disrupted by a madman.

LEMON: OK, so do you understand, then, as we're talking about, you know, the two officers that we had on, Harry and Anwar, do you understand the reason that there is a Black Lives Matter movement for -- do you understand that there is a disconnect when it comes to the interactions between especially young black men and police? Do you understand that? JACKSON: I can understand why there is a dialogue and why people feel

the way they do because of their own experiences. But a movement that is advocating violence toward law enforcement, I can't abide that.

LEMON: Do you think Black Lives Matter is doing that?

JACKSON: I have heard them do it.

LEMON: But not everyone in the movement is advocating violence.

JACKSON: Of course not.

And very few of the protesters were behaving violent, and very few police officers have deadly encounters with members of the community.

LEMON: Let's talk about the videos. Have you seen the videos of the shootings in Baton Rouge and in Minnesota?

JACKSON: Yes, I have.

LEMON: Did you think those officers responded appropriately?

JACKSON: I'm not going to make that judgment.

What I would say is they were heartbreaking to watch. It was -- you can't watch that and not be moved. But what a big part of the problem is, is people in positions where they have a big voice and can be heard are passing judgment before all the facts come out. Now, if these are bad shootings, then there needs to be consequences for that.

[15:15:05]

But let's hear the facts. Let's let the investigation play out. There are professionals in place that are doing that.

LEMON: Yes.

So now that you're speaking out, you know, you may as well go all the way and say how you feel. Do you have any regrets about Ferguson and the way it was handled? Is there anything you want to say about Darren Wilson or Michael Brown or the family or the situation in Ferguson?

JACKSON: Right now, I said a lot back then, and I'm not really ready to talk specifically about that at this point, Don. But I'll let you know.

LEMON: Have you gotten over it? Are you still dealing with it? Because that was a very tough time for you.

JACKSON: Yes, it was an extremely tough time. And, yes, I'm still dealing with it.

LEMON: How so?

JACKSON: Well, there's litigation, lawsuits. Spend a lot of time in depositions, and, you know, just writing it

down to try to sort through it, analyzing what went right and all the things that went wrong. And I'm still, you know, in touch with all the people that are still working in that community and all the people that I was there with.

And it's still a terrible memory for everybody, and it's ever-present.

LEMON: So, I want to -- I have to ask you this. As you -- what do you say to the people who are watching now about the state of policing and the state of the community and the relationship with African- Americans, especially young men, in this country? What do you say to our viewers?

JACKSON: Well, right now, what I'm saying is that the bad side of it is well, well overrated, it's overplayed.

The law enforcement community in general is more educated, more well- trained, better equipped, more informed than ever in history. And there's lots and lots of efforts to strengthen community relations, to reduce violent encounters, to have officer safety, community safety be a priority.

So, what I'm saying is...

LEMON: But what do you want to say? A lot of people are mourning. A lot of people are in grief. A lot of people are confused. A lot of people are angry. What do you say?

JACKSON: Yes.

Well, I am, too. This is heart-wrenching for me as well. I'm extremely angry at this individual. But this was one person. And these are -- these are your police officers. These are law enforcement officers that have sworn to serve, protect, and defend the public. And that's what they're out there doing. They're putting their lives in danger.

You can see in a situation like this, they were simply targets. They were made targets, and they went to protect the community while they were being shot at. I saw that in the videos. It was just heroic. It was a heroic and heart-wrenching event.

LEMON: Well, I'm so glad that you finally are speaking out. Tom Jackson, the former police chief for Ferguson, Missouri, thank you very much.

JACKSON: Thanks for having me, Don.

LEMON: All right.

I need to tell you, this is a programming note for you. At any minute now, Hillary Clinton is going to be speaking to CNN for the first time since this week's shootings and protests erupted. That interview is just moments away. So, make sure you stay with us.

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[15:22:31]

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. I'm Don Lemon. This is CNN's special coverage of the deadliest incident for U.S. law enforcement since September 11, the mass murder of five Dallas police officers.

And you're looking at two of the fallen officers, Brent Thompson of the Dallas Transit Police on the right, what they call DART, and then Patrick Zamarripa, a Dallas officer, police officer. Both also served in the military.

I want to turn now to Lawrence Jones, a conservative commentator and radio host on TheBlaze, and also Solomon Jones, a radio host in Philadelphia and a columnist for "The Philadelphia Daily News."

Lawrence, you first. You were in Dallas last night. You saw an officer get shot. What happened?

LAWRENCE JONES, THEBLAZE TV: Well, I got there, Don, right after the officers had been shot.

And, you know, it was just crazy seeing my hometown Dallas in such of a disarray. But I want to make sure that it's noted that even when the officers were being shot, they were still trying to get people to safety. I was down on the ground yesterday talking to one of the guys that were protesting, and the cop pushed him out of the way.

And that bullet hit another officer. So, although there were some differences in our community between the black community and the police, the police were still making it their business to make sure everybody was safe.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

Lawrence, after what you experienced, you say it's now going to get worse before it gets better. Why do you say that? What do you mean?

L. JONES: I couldn't hear that, Don.

LEMON: You said that you believe it's going to get worse before it gets better. Why do you say that?

L. JONES: If I can hear you correctly, you said I didn't feel like it's going to get any better?

LEMON: You said it's going to get worse before it gets better.

L. JONES: Yes, Don, if I heard you correctly, I don't think it is going to get any better.

I think, Don -- and I'm a conservative. But I'm also a black man, and I understand that there is a relationship between the black community and the police that has been tarnished for years. And until we be honest and tear off the talking points that the RNC and the DNC have given us, then we can't have a real conversation. Don, I'm a black man and I'm also a conservative. I also went to the

police academy and have a lot of cops that are friends, one that died yesterday.

[15:25:05]

And I can't help that my hand gets sweaty every single time I'm pulled over. That's a reality here in America. And I don't think all cops are hateful. I think the majority of cops are good cops. But that is one of the conversations that we have to be honest about and we have to be fair and listen to each other.

LEMON: Solomon, what do you say about that? That's a pretty bold statement that Lawrence is making. Do you feel the same way?

SOLOMON JONES, "THE PHILADELPHIA DAILY NEWS": I do.

I think that we do have to listen to each other. But I think we also have to face the reality that black people are the ones who are being shot in large numbers by police. If you are a young black man in America, you are 21 times more likely to be shot and killed by the police than your white counterpart.

And that's just a reality. And so until we deal with the underlying race issue that makes black lives more expendable than others, then we can't really have an honest conversation.

I would welcome an honest conversation about it, if we could really start from that point. Look at the data. Look at the statistics. Look at the reality, and then take the conversation from there.

LEMON: OK, so where we are now, and you heard the police chief in Dallas -- go ahead. Go ahead.

L. JONES: I don't think it's so much as just race in general. I think there's just a disconnect.

I would like to see officers -- and, like I said, I went to the academy. I majored in criminal justice systems. I would prefer seeing cops today not just arresting people and pulling them over, but walking the streets, getting to know people in your community. That's how we come together.

It's not just about arresting. We have to get back to community policing, where people don't only see the cop when they're disciplined, but actually proactive policing. You should know my name by your beat that you walk down the street. And that's just the reality.

Until we get back to that place, then there will always be a divide, Don. And it's not about party systems. Like I said, I'm a conservative, one that's probably going to vote for a Republican candidate, but this is a reality. And we have got to take away the talking points and have an honest conversation about that.

LEMON: OK, so let's talk about what happened this morning and what's going on now, because you know the political narrative, and the narrative is that, you know, this was brought on by protesters. If protesters weren't out there, this wouldn't happen, the Black Lives Matter movement.

Should the Black Lives Matter movement change in any way? Should they change their tone or their tactics, Solomon, or should they keep on moving forward in the way that they have been operating?

S. JONES No, they should not change their tone, nor should they change their tactics.

I think that these are young people, just like there were young people in the civil rights movement of the 1960s. There were some disagreements about tactics, but they all wanted the same goal. And I think you see the same thing here. You have to let young people speak in their own voice. I think that the protest is just one prong of multipronged strategy.

You have to also have a political strategy where you vote in your interests, where you use your numbers to your advantage, and where you vote strategically. If people don't do what you want them to do with the resources, then you vote them out.

So there has to be that protest strategy. There has to be a political strategy. But there also has to be a legal strategy. If we cannot get justice through the criminal justice system, then we have to go the civil route. And so I think the protest is absolutely necessary, and I think you have to allow them to speak in their own voice and in their own way to get that message across.

LEMON: That's going to have to be the last...

(CROSSTALK)

L. JONES: But there has to be...

LEMON: Go ahead, Lawrence. Quickly, please.

L. JONES: There has to be some leadership as well, though. It's going to take some of the seasoned, more civil rights leaders to get involved.

This goes all the way back to MLK and John Lewis, where he disagreed with MLK, but there had to be some leadership from above to say, guys, I have lived through this. You should take this wisdom and we can work together. I am all for the positive energy and the proactivity of young people, but we have got to do it the right way.

LEMON: I think the lesson here is don't let someone else steal your strategy and your narrative and change your narrative. And in order to do that, you have to have leadership and be on message about exactly what you're doing.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Lawrence. Thank you, Solomon. Appreciate it. Up next, calls for a boycott in Baton Rouge after a black man was shot

to death by police there earlier this week. The mother of Alton Sterling's oldest son joins me for a live interview.

Plus, a live interview with the secretary of state and presidential candidate, Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton right here on CNN just moments away. Stay with us.

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