Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Dallas Police Officers Shot during Protest; Mayor of Dallas Speaks about Recent Violence against Police; Police Possibly Used Bomb Carrying Robot to Stop Dallas Shooter; President Obama's Reaction to Recent Shootings Examined. Aired 2-2:30P ET

Aired July 09, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:17] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, and thanks very much for joining us. I'm Wolf Blitzer with special coverage of the Dallas police ambush. The actions of a few should not define us all, that was the message we heard just moments ago from President Obama at the end of the NATO summit in Poland. He addressed the killing of five political officers in Dallas and the spreading protests over the use of force by police across the country. The president suggests that Americans can do better.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And so as tough, as hard, as depressing as the loss of life was this week, we've got a foundation to build on. We just have to have confidence that we can build on those better angels of our nature. And we have to make sure that all of us step back, do some reflection, and make sure that the rhetoric that we engage in is constructive and not destructive. We're not painting anybody with an overly broad brush, that we're not constantly thinking the worst in other people rather than the best. If we do that then I'm confident we'll continue to make progress.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The President is cutting his European trip short to visit Dallas in the coming days. Our White House correspondent Michelle Kosinski is traveling with the president in Warsaw right now. He spent an hour answering reporters' questions, making these statements, and so much is focusing in on what is going on here in the United States.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it was a big chunk of it, Wolf. And it's also interesting to note that this is first time in a long time, it's the first time in a chunk of time that I can remember that he wasn't asked a question that was directly about Donald Trump. He did get a question about Hillary Clinton and her e-mails but he essentially declined to answer it. And he talked about Freedom of Information requests being answered as quickly as possible.

But on the subject of Dallas, he wanted to make the remarks off the top, focus on the unity of Americans saying that Americans are not as divided as some people tend to think. But it did get political when he started talking about guns. I mean, this is an issue he has described as one of the most frustrating of his presidency, that he has not been able to make substantial changes and in the number of high powered weapons out there and who is able to get their hands on them.

So he sort of made another plea for Americans to talk about this. He said he feels there's a way to do it that is fully within the confines of the constitution. And, Wolf, did you hear him also mention that guns could be a contributing factor in these incidents, including the Minnesota incident? He didn't say that the victim having a gun was why he was shot and killed. But he did say the fact that a gun was present there could have been a contributing factor. Wolf?

BLITZER: He also said he's not going to stop speaking about guns. He is obviously very, very concerned about the availability of guns in the United States. Michelle, thanks very much. Michelle Kosinski is traveling with the president in Warsaw.

I want to bring in our political panel, our CNN political commentator Lanhee Chen is joining us. He's also a former Mitt Romney adviser. And Julian Zelizer is joining. He's a historian, a professor Princeton University. Let me start off with you, Julian. The president said this and you've got the historic perspective to either back him up or say maybe he's wrong. He said when we start suggesting that somehow there's this enormous polarization as far as race relations in the United States are concerned and we're back to the situation in the '60s, that's just not true. Is he right?

JULIAN ZELIZER, HISTORIAN AND PROFESSOR, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: Well, it's true that we're not back to the '60s, but I do think he's underplaying the divisions that are quite evident. This is the optimistic President Obama. This is one of the qualities many people love about him. But the kinds of protest that we've been seeing across the country, not just in the last few days, but over the last few years suggest that divisions over issues like policing, employment, discrimination are still very strong. And this is also evident in parts of the Donald Trump campaign from the other side. So I think he's downplaying some of the tensions that exist.

BLITZER: What do you think, Lanhee?

LANHEE CHEN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Wolf, I agree with that. I think at the end of the day what you see here is a society that's divided on issues of race. It's divided on issues of gun control. It's divided on issues of the proper role of policing.

[14:05:11] And I think for all of those reasons, there are divisions. And I think that the president needs to acknowledge that fact. What worries me a little bit is that we seem to be searching for political leadership to solve this divide and I'm not sure that there's any political leader to solve this. I think ultimately there are other institutions in our society, for example faith institutions, that have to play a bigger role because I don't think politicians are going to be able to solve this.

BLITZER: So where does the president go from here, Lanhee. He's now wrapping up almost eight years in the White House. He's thinking obviously about his legacy. And I presume he's saying it's not as bad today, race relations, as so many others apparently believe, including Donald Trump, who made that point in his video that he posted yesterday. It's a very, very sensitive issue and I'd like both of you to address it. Go ahead, Lanhee.

CHEN: It is sensitive, it's very tender. And I think the president is in a unique position to address these issues of race relations in this country. I hope that he'll spend these next few months in office pursuing a reconciliatory tone, similar to one actually he took in remarks from Warsaw yesterday, where I thought he hit the right notes in terms of balance between talking about race relation issues as well as talking about other major current affairs issues that we're facing. So I hope he'll seek reconciliation rather than driving so hard on the need, for example, for more gun laws. You know, that's part of this debate, but it's not the be all and end all.

BLITZER: He's going to have a big speech, an important speech the whole country will be watching, Julian, when he gets to Dallas early in the week. What would you like? What do you think are the main points he should make?

ZELIZER: I think it will be more than reconciliation. I do think he's going to keep pressing on his policy wishes, whether it's gun control or forms of policing. In 1968, the Turner Commission put out a report after the riots in Detroit and New York that outlined all kinds of problems, including issues with policing, that are front and center today. Back then the leaders didn't take the opportunity to address it. We moved in a different direction. And I think there's a part of President Obama who wants to do everything he can in these next few months to set up the next administration to tackle some of the actual policy issues that are at the center of the debate.

BLITZER: Lanhee, as far as guns are concerned, the president makes the point that if you're worried out the safety of police officers, you can't set aside the issue of the availability of guns, especially semi-assault type weapons. He's going to make that point repeatedly. He's made it -- so far he hasn't succeeded in getting any legislation passed, but that's clearly on his agenda.

CHEN: It is clearly on his agenda, Wolf. And I don't think that the likelihood is relatively high that Congress is going to do anything between now and certainly in the elections. You know during an election year it's incredibly difficult to get anything done, let alone on an issue like gun violence or gun control, which is an extremely controversial issue.

But I think the president will press it. I think if the president begins to move towards executive action, which is something that he's tended to do on issues where there he been divisions in Congress, I think that will ultimately create more division in this country. So I hope he doesn't pursue that route although it wouldn't surprise me if he did.

BLITZER: Lanhee Chen, thanks very much for joining us. Julian Zelizer, thank you to you as well. The mayor of Dallas, by the way, speaking only moments ago on the

deadly violence that shook the city to its core, shook so much of the United States as a whole. His message coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:12:20] BLITZER: We want to take a moment to remember the five police officers who lost their lives during the Texas police ambush. They are Brent Thompson, who is a Dallas area rapid transit police officer and newlywed. He was recently remarried to a fellow transit officer. Thompson also trained police officers in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Lorne Ahrens was a 14 year veteran of the Dallas Police Department. He worked earlier for the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department for about 10 years.

Michael Smith was also a Dallas police officer. He served with the force for 27 years.

Michael Krol's lifelong dream was to be a police officer. His uncle says he worked hard to get his job in Dallas.

And the police officer Patrick Zamarripa was a U.S. Navy veteran and father of two.

Our deepest, deepest condolences to those five Dallas police officers.

The Dallas mayor Mike Rawlings just returned from visiting the makeshift memorial at police headquarters, and he spoke to other mourners at the site, pleading with them to not let those officers die in vain.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR MIKE RAWLINGS, DALLAS, TEXAS: That's the job of all of you. That's the job of everybody that's seeing this, to decide for themselves whether this wants to be a senseless and useless, absurd moment in life, or if it has a purpose and a grander plan to make us a stronger country, a stronger city, and a stronger world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Strong words indeed. Let's go to Martin Savidge outside Dallas city hall right now. The city is still in mourning, very much so, totally understandably.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They are. You know, it's interesting, Mayor Mike Rawlings as well as the chief of police David Brown are two city officials that many people in Dallas believe came to the fore, were really there in a time of crisis. And they continue to both move around this city and move around this tragedy, almost being in multiple places at the same time.

They continue to try to, one, reassure the city it is safe and reassure the population here, and then also, two, to try to comfort. The mayor certainly has been working on that effort because he knows that on top of this tragedy, there is also the sense of fear of perhaps retaliation from one side or another, that this could be a dividing moment. He wants to make it a unifying moment.

[14:15:00] In fact, yesterday at the vigil, there was a pledge that everyone was asked to take, and that was to say this will never happen again in the city of Dallas.

Meanwhile, the investigation moves forward, and that's very evident on the streets of Dallas. A number of downtown streets are closed. They've been pretty much left the way they were on the night of the shooting with police vehicles belonging to those officers killed still in place, caution tape all over. And you see federal investigators FBI, walking down those streets, trying to categorize and catalog all of the shots that were fired. They are doing that not just because they have to preserve a crime scene but also they want to make sure that it was indeed just one gunman, as the authorities are saying, Wolf.

BLITZER: One gunman can cause so much death and destruction.

Martin, I assume the Dallas police force and you have spoken to some police officers over the past day or so. They are taking extra precautions right now for their own security, I assume so, right?

SAVIDGE: They are. You see usually police officers are going out in twos, or you see a number of police officers in squad cars in places where they are called to. And you can be assured before they go on patrol that they have those meetings, they'll be talking about their own safety.

There's nothing so evident as heavy body armor or helmets or things like that. Instead it is more of an attitude. There's also a public attitude. The mayor has asked, most of the time the police feel unappreciated and we just take them for granted. He says that has to change now. And you see that reflected and many restaurants that set out water and food for police officers. People come up spontaneously and talk and greet and hug the police officers.

So there's been a very dramatic change. You can see this in the aftermath of a tragedy. The question is, can you prolong it in the aftermath of a tragedy? And that's part of what the mayor wants to see. He wants to see the city not just grieve for a period and move on. There's no moving on from this. There has to be a change from this.

BLITZER: Martin Savidge on the scene for us, thank you very much.

In the aftermath of this weeks' Dallas ambush, super heroes honor the department's heroes. We'll show you that. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:21:22] BLITZER: We're learning disturbing new details about the Dallas gunman Micah Johnson. While serving in the U.S. Army in Afghanistan, he was accused of sexual harassment by a fellow female soldier. He was honorably discharged in 2015. Let's talk a little bit more about all of this. Law enforcement analyst Art Roderick and Tom Fuentes are with us. Tom, what do you make of this revelation of the gunman's past?

TOM FUENTES, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Wolf, it could be an indication of him having a grievance against the government or authority figures. If he felt like he was unfairly accused or unfairly treated in the military, and he may have had grievances from being in school and all of his life. We don't know. But if he had grievances and carried them into his thinking after leaving the military, it could be a clue towards why. But it doesn't explain white police officers. It does explain maybe having a complaint against the government or against the military itself, but not completely explain white police officers.

BLITZER: Here's an interesting development, Art, and I'm anxious to get your reaction. The ministry of foreign affairs immigration issued a travel advisory in the Bahamas for any men in the Bahamas who are traveling to the United States, they advised this -- they say men from the Bahamas should, quote "exercise extreme caution in affected cities in their interactions with the police." What's your reaction when you hear that?

ART RODERICK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That is quite strange. Usually the U.S. government is putting out those types of warnings for U.S. citizens traveling overseas. It's sad we've come to this particular conclusion where we have actually foreign governments putting out these types of warnings. Whether it's valid or not, I'm not sure, but obviously the Bahaman government deems it necessary.

BLITZER: What do you think, Tom?

FUENTES: It just sounds like a political reason to put something like that out, and I would like to see what they based that on and how they justify that.

BLITZER: Art, the police department in Dallas is facing some scrutiny over the use of that so-called robot bomb to kill the gunman, some saying they crossed the line from policing to warfare. What's your reaction to that?

RODERICK: Well, I mean, this was an extraordinary circumstance. Generally on these types of robots, they can mount a shotgun. This individual had pretty heavy duty body armor on. I believe we've heard he'd been shot a couple different times. So I don't think the shotgun would have been useful, plus he could have disarmed it possibly. They could have used the robot to get in there and used the robot as a rouse for a possible communication device and then explode it. When you're in these types of extraordinary circumstances, you have to throw the book out and use extraordinary means to end a situation like this.

BLITZER: What do you think, Tom?

FUENTES: The part of the book you don't have to throw out is that the police department in that situation after hours of unsuccessful negotiation had the right to use deadly physical force to take the subject out. The fact they chose those means was a good decision that did not endanger more officers from being shot, or if they had dogs, from dogs from being killed, and other innocent citizens if he started shooting again out of that garage down on the streets again. So the fact that the police had the right and I think the duty to neutralize him as soon as possible, how they chose to do it is irrelevant.

BLITZER: Tom Fuentes, Art Roderick, guys, thanks very much for your analysis.

[14:25:01] Before we go, a touching moment in Dallas today at the memorial for the five police officers killed in the line of duty. You see, take a look at this, Batman, Captain America, the Hulk, joining hands, kneeling in prayer just outside Baylor University Hospital. Hundreds of mourners flocked to the memorial site to show their support for the fallen officers, and some have even stopped officers on the streets, offering hugs to show their condolences. I'll express my condolences once again right now.

I'm Wolf Blitzer. Thank you very much for joining us in our special coverage. It will continue right at the top of the hour. Jim Sciutto is standing by. But first, "Vital Signs" with Dr. Sanjay Gupta starts right after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)