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Bombing-Making Materials Found in Gunman's Home; Dallas Chief Brown Leads During Times of Personal Loss. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired July 09, 2016 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: It is four o'clock eastern time. You are live in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. In for Poppy Harlow today.
Right now, in Dallas, Texas. A simple memorial. Symbolizing a cities grief, a states grief, a nations grief and determination to heal.
Two police cars attracting a pile of flowers and gifts. Personal messages. People expressing their heartbreak in the aftermath of that horrific slaughter of police officers on Thursday night.
We'll have plenty on the investigation of the shooter. His background, his possible motivations in a moment.
Before that, President Obama urging the world to views this tragedy as an aberration, not as the norm.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, UNITED STATES PRESIDENT: Demented individual who carried out those attacks in Dallas. He's no more representative of African Americans than the shooter in Charleston was representative of white Americans. Or the shooter in Orlando, or San Bernardino were representative of Muslim Americans.
They don't speak for us. That's not who we are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: In Dallas right now, CNN's Martin Savage. Martin, that memorial on police cars has been interesting to watch. I remember yesterday you could see the police cars. Now, you can barely see it under there. What are the people of Dallas doing, other than this, to show their sadness for those officers? But, also their resolve, their sense of community.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN REPORTER: You get all of that here actually. The standard sentiments. You feel the resolve, you feel the heartbreak.
You get the sense of - - This is a place, even though the loss of these officers is felt throughout. Not just the city, throughout the state. This is the epicenter of that kind of grief. I'll step out of the way just a bit. People have been drawing all day long. The mayor was here earlier in the day. But, then there are others that just keep coming.
So come just to stand silently. You see people get extremely emotional. Other's come talk with one another. Share hugs and leave notes and flowers.
Hard to tell but there are two police cars there. One of them is actually a Dallas police car. The other one is the Dallas Transportation Police, otherwise known as DART. Officers from both agencies were lost in the terrible attack on Thursday.
Again, it's felt throughout this state. This is where it's strongest. The fragrance alone, coming from all those flowers, is quite remarkable. This is where people come to draw strength from one another and to figure out where they go from here.
Nobody is claiming to have any answers, it's just a good place to come and look back.
SCIUTTO: It occurs to me, we're good as a country at the memorial. The question is what do we do next? Martin Savage there in Dallas.
The people most on the mind of Dallas residents today, the victims of the horrific shooting. Five police officers killed. Several others, some of them civilians injured, still in the hospital.
Stephanie Illum (ph) is at Baylor Hospital in Dallas, Texas. Stephanie, you've been talking to some very worried family members today. There are still people there recovering.
STEPHANIE ILLUM: Exactly. You know that there were those five officers that lost there lives. Seven more that were injured. There were also two civilians hurt. One of those civilians is still here in the hospital. Her name is Shataymia Taylor (ph). She was there with her sons. Reportedly jumped to shield her sons and was shot in the calf.
CNN was able to catch up with her husband today, Lavar Taylor (ph) and he says that she's doing fine. That really she's praying for everybody and really feeling sorry for the police department that is going through so much sadness in the wake of the loss that they have had. Not really focusing on her own injuries. Her husbands saying that with their five boys it's just been a lot for them to deal with. Luckily he wasn't there because he was at work. So he could be there for their children. Take a listen of what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAVAR TAYLOR, SHOOTING VICTIMS HUSBAND: With all this craziness going on I have to hold on tight. Give them an example, that ain't the way we want to hold ourselves. Cause we better than that. We don't -- We're not a violent - - Violence don't do nothing but get us in the same circle. So it's, it's just ironic. I'm just overwhelmed with it all. (END VIDEO CLIP)
ILLUM: They are saying that just overwhelmed by all that has happened. It's a lot to take in. They're just spending as much time as they can here at the hospital. With Shataymia, to be with her.
Obviously, when you look at wounds like this. She was shot in her calf, she is supposed to recover. And be released from the hospital.
Still very devastating and very scary for people who were showing up at a protest that was peaceful until this sniper took this heinous action, Jim.
SCIUTTO: How many other victims still in the hospital? Do we have a sense of what their conditions are?
ILLUM: Right, right. We understand that there are still two police officers that worked for DART. That are still in the hospital at this time. Their names are Elmer Cannon and Misty McBride. They are still there.
We also know that another police officer named Jesus Retana, he was released yesterday.
We know that those three officers are still recovering, but two remain here in the hospital at this point Jim.
SCIUTTO: Stephanie Illum, thanks for following it for us. Three days of unspeakable violence have left the country riddle with anger, frustration, fear, sorrow. Still so many questions. The adjectives go on and on. So will the calls for accountability and answers. As they do CNN's Victor Blackwell takes a look at the week that was. A week that we all hope never happens again but fear it probably will.
VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN REPORTER: Three consecutive days of violence sending shockwaves through the nation. Tuesday morning police are called to the triple S food in Baton Rouge, Louisiana for a report of a man with a gun.
Officers Howie Lake II and Blaine Salimoni tackled 37 year old Alton Sterling to the ground. After a brief scuffle, Sterling is shot several times.
Graphic video of the incident caught on bystanders cellphones.
(Begin Video Clip)
(YELLING)
(SHOOTING)
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Get on the ground.
(SHOOTING)
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: What's that for man? UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Shots fired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLACKWELL: The video is shared widely across social media sparking local protests and drawing national attention. Sterling's 15 year old son openly weeping during a press conference the next day.
Sterling's family demanding justice.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I say again, I for one would not (inaudible). And will not allow ya'll to sweep him in the dirt.
BLACKWELL: The investigation now in the hands of the Department of Justice.
Wednesday night. 32, Philando Castile shot and killed during a traffic stop in Falcon Heights, Minnesota. His girlfriend Dondrick Reynolds Live streams the aftermath of the shooting on Facebook.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We got pulled over for a busted taillight in the back. And the (BEEP) he, he's covered. He killed my (BEEP)(inaudible) He's licensed he's carried. He's licensed to carry. He was trying to get out his ID and his wallet out his pocket and he let the officer know that he was - - He had a firearm and he was reaching for his wallet. And the officer just shot him in his arm. We're waiting.
(inaudible)
I will sir, no worries. He just shot his arm off. We got pulled over on (inaudible)
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: (inaudible) I told him to get his hands up.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: You told him to get his ID sir, and his drivers license. Oh my god, please don't tell me he's dead. Please don't tell me my boyfriend just went like that.
BLACKWELL: His family saying he was targeted because he was black.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I think he was just black in the wrong place.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We didn't do anything.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We know.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We put our hands in the air. We knew our rights and we followed procedure.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: He's not a gang banger, he's not a thug. He's very respectable and I know he didn't antagonize that officer in anyway.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: None, whatsoever.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: To make him feel like his life was in danger.
BLACKWELL: Even the states governor questioning whether this incident was racially motivated.
MARK DAYTON, GOVERNOR OF MINNESOTA: Would this have happened if those passengers, the driver, the passenger were white? I don't think it would have.
BLACKWELL: President Obama addressing the shootings of both men as protest break out nationwide.
OBAMA: When incidents like this occur. There's a big chunk of our fellow citizenry that feels as if, because of the color of their skin they are not being treated the same.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(YELLING)
BLACKBALL: Thursday, as 100's of people take to the streets to protest the violence. Chaos erupts.
(SHOOTING)
(YELLING)
BLACKWELL: A gunman begins firing into the crowd. Targeting police officers.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: There's four cops down.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Four?
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yes. He shot five, seven times.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: It's a dude?
BLACKWELL: The chaos captured on police scanners.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Shots fired. Code 3 Delta radio, officer down.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We got a guy with a long rifle. We don't know where the hell he's at. (inaudible) Parking garage.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: (inaudible) He's in the damn building right there.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: (inaudible) He's in that building.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: 69. We have got to get DOD down here now. (inaudible) Get them here.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: On the way. (inaudible)
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Suspect is inside that central building. Inside the central building.
BLACKWELL: In the end, 12 officers shot, five of them are killed. It is the single deadliest day for law enforcement since 9/11.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: There are no words to describe it. The atrocities that occurred to our city. All I know is that this, this must stop. This divisiveness. Between our police and our citizens.
BLACKWELL: Police identify the gunman as 25 year old Micah Xavier Johnson. The Dallas police chief saying Johnson told them he was upset about the recent police shootings and that he wanted to kill white people, especially white officers. That he acted alone.
After several hours of negotiation he's killed by a police bomb robot. President Obama calling the shooting a vicious, calculated and despicable attack on law enforcement. And ordering flags around the country flown at half staff.
SCIUTTO: Coming up the family of the Baton Rouge man killed by police speaks to CNN.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I want them to be in prison, I want them behind bars. I believe deep down in my soul justice will be served.
SCIUTTO: We're going live to Louisiana for more from Alton Sterling's grieving family. It's one of their first television interviews.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to CNN Newsroom. Tensions remaining high in Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Where police shot and killed Alton Sterling on Tuesday. One of two polices killings caught on video as it happened last week.
Tempers flaring outside police headquarters when protesters begin hurling frozen water bottles at officers last night. Correspondent Nick Vallencia joins me now from Baton Rogue.
Nick, I understand you, yourself, were caught in the middle of that tense moment between police and protestors. Describe what was going on.
NICK VALLENCIA, CNN REPORTER: The anxiety was very evident on Friday night. Hundreds of demonstrators squaring off against riot police. At one point their was a negotiation between one protester who was leading the group, so to speak. And the riot police.
They started to disburse. Those water bottles came out and that escalated the situation. Flashes of what could have been very, very bad. Eventually the protest ended about a few hours after it began.
Here the message from the family of Alton Sterling is that violence should not beget violence. Hate should not be the answer to hate.
I sat down with the mother of his eldest son, who is still understandably very raw with emotion.
In one of her first sit-down interviews since the death of Alton Sterling. Quinyetta Mcmillion is still raw with emotion. QUINYETTA MCMILLION, SHOOTING VICTIMS SON'S MOTHER: My heart is really
heavy right now.
VALLENCIA: Next to her, attorney Chris Turner. She speaks frankly to CNN about the killing of her child's father.
MCMILLION: Just from the little bit I saw, of footage. I felt like they could have approached him different. The words they used could have different. .
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(YELLING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VALLENCIA: CNN was told by a source with knowledge of the investigation, that it was a homeless man that made the 911 against Sterling. The caller said Sterling was brandishing a gun outside the Triple S convince store.
Mcmillion doesn't think that's how things started.
MCMILLION: I don't believe that there's a homeless man that asked for money and Alton didn't give it. Because he was not that type of person. Alton would give you the shirt off his back if you needed it.
VALLENCIA: You feel that way?
MCMILLION: I do. You know, every-time I get kind of emotional I say, you know, come through to me. Help me stay strong so I know the right things to say and do so that you can have justice. To me justice is making sure everything is in order. Making sure that the system that we have, see what I see.
And I want them to be in prison. I want them behind bars. I believe deep down in my soul justice will be served. I don't hate them. I dislike what they did, but I don't hate them.
VALLENCIA: Hate, she says, won't bring Sterling back. But she will never be the same again.
Quinyetta Mcmillion went on to say that faith in god is what's getting her through these grueling days. She's also fueled by optimism that the two officers involved in the shooting death of Alton Sterling will be charged. Jim.
SCIUTTO: Nick, I noticed that her lawyer was there with, he didn't say much. Did she talk about a civil suit as well? Against the police department?
VALLENCIA: She has high hopes that there will be criminal charges against these officers. Her lawyer feels the same.
They think that the video evidence speaks for itself. Especially the second angle of that cell-phone. Her lawyer was present, really let Quinyetta do, Quinyyetta I should
say. Do the majority of the talking. She is still devastated by that but is moving forward, she says, with strength. Because she wants to get justice for the father of her eldest child. Jim.
SCIUTTO: Nick Vallencia covering that earlier police shooting this week.
Protests are continuing across the country. Today, demanding simply an end to the violence. But, how can we turn words into action and heal the rift between civilians and police? Address this violence, find a way forward. All these questions in the conversation coming up next. Live in the CNN Newsroom.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Protest in Dallas turns, into effect, a shooting gallery. The nation struggling to comprehend what happened. The mayor of Dallas speaks from the heart, about a tragedy in his hometown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Can you say something about the racial divide that seems to be apparent about black and white.
MIKE RAWLINGS, DALLAS MAYOR: Guys, guys, guys, this is crazy.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: A healing word.
RAWLINGS: This is crazy. I've been talking as much healing that's in my body. Ok. So. It's all about race. It's all about race and lets get over it. Build a bridge, and lets get over it.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: What about these (inaudible).
RAWLINGS: I've spoken - -
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: It's all about race. Build a bridge, he says, and let's get over it. Let's bring in our panel now.
Law enforcement analyst Art Roderick. He's a former assistant directory of the U.S. Marshall's office.
Diversity consultant, protects the police department. Joey Jackson. CNN political commentator Mark Lamant Hill. He's author again of "Nobody, casualties of America's war on the vulnerable. From Ferguson to Flint and beyond."
Ok guys, I'm going to make this easy for the panel this time. Because I was just thinking as we saw that memorial in Dallas. As a country we're great at memorials, right? I mean we do it, and I feel like we build a memorial three times a week now. After some sort of shooting. Whether it's terrorism or race or god knows what. Then we have these conversation. Then the next one happens. I guess I
would just ask each of you. What is the one thing - - Not that you want said. That you want done now, to make a difference. To address this kind of violence.
I'll start, Mustaffa, just welcome you on to the panel, I'll start with you.
UNKNOWN SPEAKER: You have to start seeing things from other's perspective. Often times we talk about is, you build trust through respect. I think that's what's lacking right now.
SCIUTTO: That's a scene from the other side. Art Roderick, you been in the law enforcement service. What do you need to see done? Not said, but done?
ART RODDERICK, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think, Jim, When you look at the incidents that occurred in Baton Rogue and in Minneapolis. Then look at what happened here in Dallas. There on each end of the scale.
You have questionable incidences in Baton Rogue and in Minneapolis. You have heroic efforts here that occurred in Dallas.
Even though there's a small percentage of what you have on the bad side. 98% we heard from the chief, from the deputy chief. Law enforcement officers are doing good out there.
I think what we have here is communities that are afraid to talk to police. That perception is reality. We've got to get all these communities and law enforcement agencies together and start a dialog.
SCIUTTO: Mark Lamont Hill, your turn.
MARK LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think we need new laws. Hard to break it down to one thing because I think the whole system is broken. Just for the sake of this conversation I'll say we need new laws.
We need to get rid of any policy that is facially neutral. But at the core is divided up by race. We need to get rid of any policies and laws that force poor people to pay a heavier, or take a heavier burden than their wealthy counterparts.
For example, bail, the bail system. Essentially you're exchanging money for freedom. There are people like Sandra Brown that die in jail cause they didn't have the money to get out in the first place.
We need to change the law. We need to get rid of stop and frisk. We need to get rid of these broken windows. Models of policing.
We need to get rid of anything that ultimately weighs heavier on one population than another.
SCIUTTO: Joey, you're a lawyer. Been a lawyer a long time. What law would you change first? Mark mentioned the bail system, what would you change? JOEY JACKSON, LAWYER: It's an easy answer Jim. Before I give you the answer let me just say that no matter what police incident occurs, there's never justification for taking the lives. Like what we saw happen in Dallas.
It should not have happened. It just is tragic on so many levels. It's just so sad that it came to that.
Violence is not the answer. In terms of my one thing. I'd like to see independent investigations where police involved shootings occur.
Here's what I mean. What you see when we have incidences like this. You talk about the issue of trust. Whenever an investigation occurs involving a police shooting, you want, in general, the population to trust the outcome of that investigation. To respect the outcome of that investigation. And to accept it.
If you look back and you look at say for example what happened in my back yard. Here in New York. Eric Gardner, he's holding cigarettes, there's a choke hold, he dies. No indictment.
Then there after you look in Cleveland to Mayor Rice. Child with a gun. No indictment.
People, and looking at that, I would never advocate a grand jury doing anything Jim, other than following the evidence.
My issue though, when I say independent investigations is. Should the Staten Island District Attorney have been the one to present that to the Grand Jury? Being that you work as a district attorney, I'm a former prosecutor. We're with police every day. Am I the guy, when I have your partner in my office yesterday, to be the one investigating your partner tomorrow?
[16:30:05] In Cleveland, should the local prosecutor have been the one handling that? I think what we're seeing here in light of these two past shootings, when you have the Department of Justice step in and they are investigating people feel a little sense of relief, people feel a little sense of relief that there will be fairness, whatever the outcome, that people can buy into it.
So, if there was one law across the country I would like to see is whether it is the federal government that takes the investigation, whether it's another district attorney look at the investigation, anything other than the local prosecutor who works every single day with police officers.
SCIUTTO: So, by my count, I heard from Marc, change bail laws, you know, people buying their way to freedom, some people can't afford it. Independent investigations, cops, Art, you're talking about, you know, not in effect painting everyone with the same brush, right? Blaming everyone for, say, cops in that case for the actions of the few.
And then, Mustafa, that simple message about respect. But I appreciate you all giving your ideas. Before I let you ago, what are the chances and, Mustafa, since you spoke first, the chances we see that kind of action in the coming days and weeks and months, the follow through?
MUSTAFA TAMEEZ, PRESIDENT, SOUTH ASIAN CHAMBER OF COMMERCE IN HOUSTON: Well, what we have to refuse is the binary conversation of, are you for the police or are you for the African-American community. We've got to start coming together because the fabric of our nation is being teared. And the only way to stitch it back is when we start hearing each other and not talk at each other but really with each other.
SCIUTTO: Guys, let's work at it together, right? I mean, it's a national responsibility.
JACKSON: We need the police, Jim. We absolutely need the police. Police need communities. We have to respect police. And of course we want the police to respect communities. It has to come together.
SCIUTTO: We need each other.
Art, Marc, Joey, Mustafa, thanks very much.
Coming up next, we return live to Dallas, a city in mourning for this horrible loss -- five police officers, others still injured and recovering. What where hope, resolve and community strength is high still.
You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:35:18] SCIUTTO: As Dallas mourns the loss of five fallen police officers, investigators are digging into the shooter's background, trying to piece together what brought him there, what led to this. Shocked friends described Micah Xavier Johnson as a jokester, a fun- loving guy, a proud army veteran who loved his country. But some are also describing him as reclusive, a loner, and police say Johnson became infuriated and wanted to kill white police officers.
When investigators searched Johnson's home, they found a pile of bomb- making materials.
CNN's Ed Lavendara, he's been tracking the investigation in Dallas. He's lived in Dallas for a long time. Ed, what's the latest on what we know about the killer?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know that investigators are poring through some of the evidence that was pulled out of his home where neighbors tell us he lived with his mother here in a suburb east of Dallas called Mesquite. That's where investigators over the course of about almost 12 hours of searching pulled out bags and bags of evidence from the home which we were later told included firearms, weapons, bomb making materials, and a journal of combat tactics. And detectives are poring through that book to determine exactly the mind- set of this killer and how this particular attack was planned out and carried out, if there is any clues that would shed light on all of that.
All of this while investigation investigators are still here in downtown Dallas. Several square blocks have been cordoned off since the shooting and have remained so as investigators continue combing through this massive crime scene here. One of the things they are doing is collecting all of the shell casings, obviously. And they are also trying to make a track of his movements during that shooting.
Of course, one person official initially created so much chaos that initially the investigators and law enforcement officers on the scene believed there was more than one shooter firing at them. That turned out according to law enforcement not to be the case that they do believe that Micah Johnson acted alone. They are piecing together his background. We have tried to reach out to his family. They have rebuffed all of our requests for interviews so far. It's not clear how much cooperation they are giving to law enforcement, but all of that is being worked around the clock -- Jim.
SCIUTTO: Are there any questions at this point, Ed, about the police response? Are they talking about mistakes made that allowed the shooting to continue so long? Are they reaching that stage? Or is it too early?
LAVANDERA: I would suspect it's too early. I haven't heard much talk about that. However, I think it's standard for law enforcement agencies once everything has settled down quite a bit to look back on what happened and figure out what could have been done differently. I would imagine that that is pretty standard.
I do know that several weeks ago, Donald Trump was here for a political rally, and the police department here was celebrated and lauded for the way they handled -- you know, there had just been a wave of protests at those rallies that had gotten out of control. The one that was here went off without a hitch even though there were protesters and anti-Trump protesters and pro-Trump supporters. They were all here and it had the protest tension that had been occurring at some of his rallies. But never ever came of it.
So, you know, the police department lauded for the way they handled that particular type of situation. That was one of the recent massive public events that the department had to deal with. I do know talking to police officers here since that event, that going back and looking at how they handled the situation and what they did is something that they do and probably do quite often.
SCIUTTO: Of course, the night of the shooting the peaceful demonstration that the police handled so well.
Ed Lavandera in Dallas, thanks very much.
Coming up on CNN NEWSROOM, two police involved shooting and ambush on Dallas police, tension between police and protesters. Seem familiar? We'll look back to see if there are connections between this week and the turbulent 1960s.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [16:42:57] SCIUTTO: Deadly police shootings, demonstrations, a mass shooting targeting Dallas police officers. To say the country has been on edge this week, certainly an understatement. Many comparing to it the racial turbulence of the 1960s.
Our next guest knows a lot about that period in American history. Julian Zelizer is a historian, a professor at Princeton University, author of "The Fierce Urgency of Now".
Professor, as you watched the weeks unfold here, I wonder if you saw echoes of the 1960s? That turbulent time seems -- you know, it was 50 years ago but doesn't seem that long ago. Did you see echoes of that in this week?
JULIAN ZELIZER, HISTORIAN & PROFESSOR, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: There are many echoes. In 1968, after a year after the riots that took place in cities like Detroit and Newark the government puts out a report, the Kerner report, and that report chronicles all the racial tensions and problems that exist in the cities. And one of the issues that's discussed is policing. And inequities, the racial inequities in our criminal justice system.
So, both the protests and tensions and the policies being discussed were there in the 1960s and we never solved them.
SCIUTTO: I actually read the Kerner report. I read a story about it because someone, in all honesty, tweeted it and I read it. I was reading it -- this is something that LBJ asked his commission to put together -- so many of the lines in there seemed to describe today talking not just about policing buy disparity of opportunity, et cetera. On the flip side, you heard President Obama today say, listen, we don't have the police attacking people wholesale. You don't have them setting dogs on protesters at Edmund Pettus Bridge, right?
I mean, do you think the president was wrong to say that it's an exaggeration to call this kind of the second coming of the '60s?
ZELIZER: Well, things can be better, and he's right, but they can still be bad. So, there are certain areas where there has been improvement.
[16:45:02] And obviously, you don't have those kinds of police attacks. You don't have the kinds of legal segregation that existed in the early 1960s. But there are many other issues, economic issues, issues with the criminal justice system, where I think it's fair to say we've deteriorated since the 1960s, we've -not improved. So, I think that's an optimistic loss over the problems that have emerged in the last few years.
SCIUTTO: In the aftermath of this week's civil rights icon, Congressman John Lewis who certainly has experience in the '60s. He was at the front of many of protests. He spoke to a crowd on chi. Listen to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. JOHN LEWIS (D), GEORGIA: Many of us years ago marched, we were beaten. We were jailed. I went to jail 40 times during the '60s, beat and left bloody and unconscious. But I never gave up. I never gave in.
We'll never give in. Never give up. But we have got to have order, be peaceful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: I mean, to be fair, and I certainly don't mean to put a gloss over this but looking for balance, there you have John Lewis, as he said he went to jail dozens of times for his protests, and now he is a sitting congressman, a respected one. President Obama, he is a black man, he's president.
You know, isn't just -- for Americans at home, because there is a sense in this country now, that the country is falling apart. Wonder if, you know, if there's an argument that that's exaggerated.
ZELIZER: Well, again, the country hasn't fallen apart. We have made progress on civil rights. In many ways, become a more pluralistic society and some things that weren't tolerated in the '60s wouldn't be. So, again, John Lewis, President Obama, they are symbols of how far we've come.
But we can't say all that and then ignore these deep rooted issues that never were really addressed in the late 1960s. You know, when these issues of policing and inequities came on to the agenda in '68, the country moved to the right. It moved to a more conservative position where they didn't deal with these issues. So, I think both can be true and we need to understand that.
SCIUTTO: That's a great point you bring up. I mean, law and order, right, that helped elect Nixon in 1968, and we hear those same phrases now in our current political debate. No question.
Julian Zelizer, thanks very much for joining us.
ZELIZER: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Still to come --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE: Please, we need your support to be able to protect you from men like these who carried out this tragic, tragic event.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: The Dallas police chief has had to lead as his department suffers terrible loss. But loss is something that this police chief knows all too well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [16:51:39] SCIUTTO: The Dallas police ambush has certainly taken an emotional toll on the families and friends of the dead and wounded. That goes without saying, but also a toll on the city residents.
One man, though, has had to stand tall throughout this horror. That's Dallas police chief David Brown.
As CNN's Sara Sidner reports, this is not the first time that Chief Brown has had to overcome tragic personal loss.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The city of Dallas is reeling, horrified after Thursday's vicious ambush. The sniper's target, police, particularly white police officers. Five police officers killed and seven others wounded after a gunman opened fire at a downtown Dallas protest over police killings of young black men.
Amid the chaos and fear, a strong voice has emerged.
BROWN: There are no words to describe the atrocity that occurred to our city.
SIDNER: Calling for peace, calling for respect, Dallas police chief David Brown must calm a terrified city. At the same time, he's dealing with the aftermath the deadliest assault on law enforcement since 9/11.
BROWN: We don't feel much support most days. Let's not make today most days. Please, we need your support to be able to protect you from men like these who carried out this tragic, tragic event.
SIDNER: He is a 30-year veteran of the Dallas Police Department. Few people know heart break, loss, and pain better than Chief Brown, who lost a colleague, a son, and his brother to violence. Six years ago, his own son killed a police officer and another man before police fatally shot his son more than a dozen times. Brown's younger brother was killed by drug dealers back in the '90s.
He doesn't talk much about those losses. But now, he must unravel what happened behind an unthinkable massacre.
BROWN: Through our investigation of some of the suspects, it's revealed to us that this a well-planned, well thought out, evil tragedy by these suspects. And we won't rest until we bring everyone involved to justice.
(APPLAUSE)
SIDNER: Under Brown's leadership, the Dallas police department worked hard to reduce incidents of excessive force in recent years. Police trained to use tasers instead of bullets in certain situations. Now, some of these officers are dead, and one man must help a city mend.
BROWN: In the police officer profession, we are very comfortable with not hearing thank you from citizens especially who need us the most. We're used to it.
CROWD: Thank you! Thank you. Thank you!
[16:55:00] BROWN: So, today feels like a different day than the days before this tragedy, because you're here, because Dallas is a city that loves.
SIDNER: Sara Sidner, CNN, Dallas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Coming up live in the NEWSROOM, President Obama speaking candidly about race and the violence we've witnessed this week across America and his own legacy on race relations. That's coming up right at the top of this hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Lastly this hour, I want to show you just some of the messages people have been leaving outside the Dallas police headquarters where this memorial you see there has been growing, balloons, flowers, and notes like this.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
