Return to Transcripts main page
Don Lemon Tonight
New Protests After Week of Shocking Violence; New Details of Dallas Gunman; Fox News Scandal: Six More Women Accuse Roger Ailes of Sexual Harassment; Donald Trump on Law and Order. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired July 11, 2016 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:00:18] DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news. New protests tonight after a week of shocking violence and new details about the gunman who killed five Dallas police officers, as we look at live pictures tonight from Atlanta of one of the protests.
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. Some more questions than answers about Dallas shooter Micah Johnson. Police say he left his chilling clue. The letters, R.B. scrawled twice on a wall in his own blood. What does it mean? And could it lead investigators to a motive?
Plus, inside this story. A Fox News scandal. Was one of his lead anchors se sexually harassed by the chief of the network, Roger Ailes?
Let's get right to Dallas so with CNN's Ed Lavandera, Martin Savidge live for us there, and Polo Sandoval live with protesters in Atlanta.
Ed, I'm going to begin with you for the new details on this. What are Micah Johnson's friends and family saying about him tonight?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, his parents gave an interview to "The Blaze" website and his father said that he did not see this coming. They described him as a good son and his mother went on to say that after he had left the military, he'd become very disillusioned. So those are some of the first words that are coming from his parents.
LEMON: What do investigators found inside of his home?
LAVANDERA: Well, you know, this is an interesting part where investigators are still kind of trying to sift through this mystery of, you know, they found bomb-making materials that they talked about for the last couple of days. We heard from a federal law enforcement source tonight that says there's about three and a half pounds of explosive material inside the house.
A local law enforcement here in Dallas tells me, law enforcement official tells me that material was spread out through various rooms inside the house. But the question is what was the intent of all this. What was it supposed to be used for? And that's what police don't know at this point and they're trying to figure that out.
LEMON: I know that the chief of police, David Brown, held a moving news conference today. Can you talk to us about what he said, Ed?
LAVANDERA: You know, it's interesting. It was not exactly the way I think these many people expected this press conference to go. They're expecting kind of an investigative update that -- on this, but, you know, police chief David Brown started off by simply saying he was fried and exhausted and didn't know how he was going to make it through this week with funerals beginning tomorrow, President Obama visiting here in Dallas tomorrow as well.
But then also reaching out to the protesters as he's watched these altercations throughout the country continue to intensify in the days since the shooting in Dallas and at one point, you know, the one dramatic line from all of this, essentially telling the protesters to leave the protest line and come apply for a job in his police department. So it was a fascinating moment to watch the police chief here this morning.
LEMON: Ed Lavendera in Dallas. Ed, thank you very much.
To Atlanta now, live there, CNN'S Polo Sandoval with the protesters tonight. So Polo, what's happening in Atlanta right now?
POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Obviously, their cries are loud. We still have a large group of protesters here in Atlanta, that's just north of downtown, outside the Georgia governor's mansion. This is a crowd that initially started in t Buckhead Region which is a fairly upscale shopping and also dining area, but ultimately they marched all the way out here to the outer perimeter of the governor's mansion where we are seeing a large contingency of police which you would see. If you were to look just left at me here, this road has basically been cleared, Don. So what you'll find here are protesters, media and plenty of state and local police.
We have heard from the very beginning since these demonstrations started on Thursday or at least the more severe demonstrated started on Thursday, and that was from the mayor of Atlanta asking for these demonstrators to simply obey traffic laws and to simply also stay off the roadways, otherwise they would have to enforce some of these laws.
As a result, what we witnessed today, again, on the fifth day of demonstrations, we watched as Atlanta police basically moved in on the marching crowd that was on the roadway and began arresting individuals.
We have seen the number of arrests slowly grow. Initially there were zero arrests Friday which was perhaps the largest demonstration, about 10,000 people. No arrests. However, today, we heard from the police chief and the mayor saying that the patience of these police officers who have shown tremendous restraint will slowly begin to wear out as we continue to see these demonstrations stay strong, Don.
LEMON: Polo Sandoval in Atlanta for us. Polo, we'll continue to monitor you in Atlanta and get back to you if it's warranted.
I want to bring you now and go to back to Dallas and bring you Martin Savage. Good evening to you, Martin. You're at that candlelight vigil in Dallas. President Barack Obama arriving tomorrow.
[23:05:00] Funerals are being set. This city is deeply saddened right now.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They are. You know, we saw, I think here the transition from shock, a city that now is starting to emerge from that terrible shock of the loss of so many officers to now open grieving.
A very large crowd that was on hand here at city hall. And among that crowd were of course, family members of the fallen and there were also tributes that were paid and many times those tributes were paid by the partners or former partners of these fallen officers. Those officers had a tough time getting through their own statements and many in the audience listening to them you saw them break down as well.
So it's going to be a week of very difficult grief and it's just beginning, Don.
LEMON: And veteran officers, they're all, you kn ow, feeling shock in sadness. What are these veteran officers in Dallas saying tonight?
SAVIDGE: You kind of alluded to it, you know, with what you were mentioning to Ed Lavendera with the police chief. There seems to be a new kind of candidness now. The verbal gloves need to come off and frank conversations need to be had. Especially by officers of color when talking openly about the difficult role they play on a force and in a community. Listen to just one powerful statement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MORRIS POPE, SENIOR CORPORAL, DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT: I think the very unique perspective that we have that hasn't been stated enough or hasn't been addressed is when you're a black officer, you have a very unique perspective because as you can see, we're black men and we're police officers. We've been on this department for 30 years and you walk that line each and every day and you understand that you have people that you relate to, that you have relations with that's not police officers and you understand the anger, you understand the frustration.
You see -- they talk to you. I have friends from 500 -- who make $500,000 to $5,000. But the difference is, they all are frustrated. They all feel marginalized. They feel like that they're not being heard. So we have to stop talking around the edges about this issue because we're at a tipping point.
It's real about what's going on with the lack of relationship between the minority community and police departments across this country. And I think once we get to having serious dialogue and being honest about our relationship that sometime doesn't exist at all, we will always -- we'll be at this point where everyone loses.
It's a sad state of affairs that we're here today and the sad -- until we address this issue head on and don't be politically correct about it, don't worry about who we offend, don't worry about a promotion on the job, don't worry about who like you, and stand up for what's right. Until black, white, and Hispanic, male and female do that, we will never move forward. We'll be at this place in another city, in another state until people are serious about getting this issue addressed.
Five officers have lost their lives but I lost sleep before they lost their lives. I lost sleep when Mr. Castile lost his life because I said, that could be my brother. Until we get to that point, until we get that to the point where officers say, "Hey, that's wrong. Let's stand up to this." We will be at the same place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Two very articulate, smart, powerful, emotional men of color tonight on this broadcast. One of them telling you, Corporal Pope, that there is an issue within the police department. Another surgeon who treated those officers saying as a black man, he feels threatened by police when he's not in the hospital wearing a white coat. Something has changed, has shifted in Dallas sectors and maybe across this country now, Martin.
SAVIDGE: Right, and I think we've heard a number of people allude to it. You heard it just now, tipping point. Or that we stand at the brink of some chasm. The mayors referred to it, too, saying that we can either fall apart as fools or come together as both a city in Dallas, which is what he's speaking about, but as a nation as well.
And I think they're all right. That we need to have very frank discussions, otherwise we've seen, and we're already seeing every night the potential of what lies ahead. And it doesn't look good. So words are the weapons that should be used now.
LEMON: Thank you very much for that, Martin Savidge. We will do that. On Wednesday night, we will start that conversation at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, our town hall on race and policing here in America.
[23:10:04] When we come right back, American turmoil in the wake of shocking violence, two black men killed by police, five officers gunned down in the line of duty. Is this really a turning point for our country?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Angry protests tonight over the shooting deaths of black men by police officers. And joining me now, Retired Lieutenant General Russel Honore, CNN Political Commentator Charles Blow, op-ed columnist for "The New York Times," and Bernard Kerik Former Commissioner of the New York City Police Department.
Charles, last week we saw two black men killed by cops, five officers now dead. People are frightened and appalled. Are we -- you heard the officer on with Martin Savidge. And a number of officers have been speaking out. Are we at a tipping point?
CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think there are two conversations happening and one at least two conversations that need to be had. One is a conversation about kind of interpersonal relationships and whatever racism and biases may exist there.
[23:15:01] I believe that typically if you go out on the ground, you hear these officers speak, there's something happening that is very real about them trying to grapple with what is happening between individuals.
There's a separate conversation that kind of hides in the shadows which is about systems. That what are the systems that push these two populations of people into such frequent contact in the first place? And that conversations are very much larger conversation because it's not clear, it's not as overt as somebody does something to another person because the system does it.
And that means that all of the designs of American policy that created America's ghettos, that fostered concentrated poverty in which people make choices sometimes horrible choices, those are -- we created that system then we then determined how we're going to spend our money around this topic and what we've done is we spend an exorbitant amount of money on incarceration and far less amount of money on trying to prevent people from ever getting into that system.
We have done this and so that systemic issue, that systemic conversation always lags behind this interpersonal one.
LEMON: Because it is, as you say, it's not -- lack of a better, you know, term or pun, it's simple as black and white, but it's also as simple as black and white meaning the history of this country, how black people came here.
BLOW: But it's harder to grasp ...
LEMON: Yeah.
BLOW: ... in a sound bite to say this is what has caused this clash in the first place.
LEMON: Hang on, hang on, Commissioner. I just want to pose this question to Russel Honore. General, you've been around -- you've seen a lot -- you've seen it through the military. You know, you're down in Baton Rouge which is my hometown. Does it feel like there is a tipping point that something is happening now in this country because of all these things?
LT. GEN. RUSSEL HONORE, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Absolutely. You know, I think the thought point is the future we feared is here. We have gone an entire century without fixing the issues of poverty in our inner cities. It is so bad as Charles was talking about, people on probation have to pay money to see their probation officer and if they don't two see them, then they get a summons and get picked up by police again. We put more people in Louisiana in prison than any other state and we spend more money in Louisiana on prisons than we do on education.
The future we feared is here. We have to fix these issues associated with justice for all, as well as poverty. North Baton Rouge sits in the shadows of the Exxon factory, one of the biggest factories in the world. Very few people in North Baton Rouge work in that factory. They're out jobs, over 50 percent without jobs, yet this very parish give Exxon $23 million tax break every year in the shadow of that cover poor people living in misery, 50 percent unemployment and we end up with a case like Mr. Sterling.
LEMON: Oh, yes. It is right down the interstate or drive on scenic highway and you can see that. Listen, both of my parents ...
HONORE: Yes.
LEMON: ... worked at EXxon Chemical 1 at the refinery. I know exactly what you're talking about. We lived in Park Vista in Scotlandville. I know exactly what -- everything you're saying and it's absolutely correct.
So as a former police commissioner you sit here and you listen to these gentlemen saying we haven't addressed these issues. Do you see it differently as a law enforcement person? And from your listening ear, right, how do you come together with what them to understand what they're saying and dealing with and what they're saying and how does law enforcement, how do you two come to a consensus?
BERNARD KERIK, FMR. COMMISSIONER, NEW YORK POLICE: Don, I've been on this show before and I've been for the last two and a half years I've been talking about the criminal justice system, I've been talking about mass incarceration, I've been talking about a lot of the criminal justice system that needs to get fixed.
The problem we have is whether it's the criminal justice system, whether it's the poverty in these communities, the everyday police officer still has to go out into those communities. You know, we don't go into a community to target the minorities, the black Americans. We go in it and ...
LEMON: Intention? By being there, you are, right?
KERIK: Well, you got to go where the crime is. If that's where the crime is, that's where the 911 calls come from. That's, you know, people are calling for help.
LEMON: Right.
KERIK: That's where you go. And unfortunately, when we go into those communities, sometimes things happen like we've seen in Minnesota or Louisiana or wherever. Sometimes things happen that people have questions about and I just -- I can go back to what I said other day. Let the investigations take their place. Don't blame -- don't lay blame, don't attack, don't go on a rampage until you determine exactly what happened.
[23:20:01] But get it. I understand it. And that's why these discussions are so important.
LEMON: But how do you do that? So we're sitting here on television, right, it's easy for us to sit on CNN with the cameras on go, "We need to have a discussion, we need to have a discussion." When you actually live in that neighborhood, Charles ...
BLOW: Well ...
LEMON: ... you're concerned about paying the bills, making ends meet.
BLOW: ... here's one very important thing that the Dallas police chief said I think people kind of overlooked and didn't pay close attention to. He said these guys are making $ $40,000 a year and putting their lives on the line. What you have is a group of kind of middle to low income almost blue collar workers who are policing working class, poor, impoverished neighborhoods. The people who are kind of outside that conversation, or they're middle class, upper middle class, wealthy people who benefit from this kind of keeping the violence away from me. As long as you keep it over there, they kind of turn a blind eye and say, "I don't care what happens, this is collateral damage." And ...
LEMON: Can I ask you something?
BLOW: ... right.
LEMON: Is it more about -- is it socioeconomic or race? I'm not sure. Is it a combination of both here?
BLOW: Well, I think the structures that have created are what we call the ghettos are race-based systems, all right? These are race-based policies. And so, that's why you have race-based packets of ghettos in American cities. And then you -- and then -- and that -- what bubbles up out of that is a lot of violence. That is true.
And -- but we created that and then we sent our police forces in to try to control that and keep it away from the people with the access to capital and money and those people are perfectly OK with you putting as much pressure to keep that thing isolated, contained and away from my property. And so what you have is it is both a race issue, but it is also very much a class issue because if the upper classes of American city societies said "We refuse to accept this kind of system, we want to reallocate prevent this many people from ever having to come into contact, we want to prevent cops from having to be in this much danger," we would stop that.
LEMON: And I think that's the first time that I've heard it articulated where you said, you know, to keep those people there because I don't want to mess up with what I have. And you don't want to deal with that because I got mine, so, you know, you get yours.
BLOW: Let that sort of criminal behavior start to tip over into upper middle class neighborhoods ...
LEMON: Yeah.
BLOW: ... and you will see how quickly the political structure will respond.
LEMON: I got to take a break. I'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Breaking news, there it is. In Atlanta where we see these live pictures right now. I want to get to CNN's Polo Sandoval who is there live. You have some new information about the protesters. What happened?
SANDOVAL: Well, there's a good sign here, Don, that dialogue is happening. That's because Atlanta Police Chief George Turner arrived here a few moments ago just outside the state governor's mansion and we're told that he is now speaking to members of this protest.
This march, it started several hours ago just north of downtown Atlanta. Since then, though, we have seen several of these marchers make their way here to the governor's mansion.
You'll look at the crowd here, too, Don, you have people from all walks of life, all ages, black, white, everybody marching as one. And really, they staged a sitting here a little while ago and it looks like they may not be going anywhere for a while. They've been ordering food. Police officers who you would find on this side have food as well. So ultimately it's going to be interesting to see when this will actually break up.
But just to add some context here, what we've seen the last five days, we have seen nightly protests going into the wee hours of the night. Really at least 15,000 people have already come to the streets. But again, a good positive sign, yes, there are cries for justice, yes, police are still enforcing the law, they're trying to keep people on the sidewalk, but that dialogue is happening with officials including the police chief, himself, meeting with some members of this major movement.
LEMON: Polo, what is the significance of the police chief coming to speak with them? Was that one of their demands?
SANDOVAL: They have been wanting to open up that dialogue with not only the Atlanta mayor, but the police chief, himself. We've been hearing from him repeatedly over the last several days as the chief has tried to share his story growing up in these neighborhoods, growing up a black man, himself. And so he's hoping that his story can perhaps be told to the people here in the city so they can at least establish that connection.
He's somebody that who has already made an effort to also have high- profile civil rights figures like Andy Young, for example, somebody who walked alongside Martin Luther King, speak to some of these protesters so they at least understand that there should at least be an order and that people should at least stay out of the highways and, of course, some of the city streets as well.
So, again, this is significant because they have been wanting to share their concerns with high-profile officials and, of course, George Turner, the police chief of the city, is one of them.
LEMON: Polo Sandoval, stand by. I'm going to listen in to the police chief, George Turner, live now. GEORGE TURNER, CHIEF ATLANTA POLICE DEPARTMENT: But the fact is, as we look at, you know, our point is our city is doing the right thing. That's why we're out here. We're out here trying to have a conversation with folks and figure out what we can do to move our police department to a better place.
You know, I was born and raised in this city. And I love our city. And I grew up the man that I am in this city, a black man for 57 years. So I know what this city's all about and I've been able to thrive in this city. I think every last one of the young folks if they're prepared to work hard, they'll be able to thrive in the city as well.
UNIDENTIFED MALE: So you can find some common ground here?
TURNER: Absolutely.
LEMON: Chief of Atlanta Police Department, George Turner speaking with protesters this evening. You're looking at live pictures now from Atlanta. That protest still going on now.
I want to bring my panel back in, Russel Honore, Charles Blow, and Bernard Kerik. Are police chiefs around the country, Commissioner, going to have to change to sort of change their tactics when it comes to dealing with protesters now?
[23:30:03] KERIK: No, I they're going to, you know, keep these dialogues going. I think the key behind the protests, keep it peaceful. What I just saw, what we've seen in Atlanta, I don't have a problem with people protesting. What I have a problem with is when they get violent, when they attack others, when they start calling for the killing of cops and stuff like that. This kind of protest will create dialogue. The chiefs, the executives, the towns, the mayors, they'll be talking. They'll have communications. That's what we need to happen. I don't see a problem with it.
LEMON: Yeah, I find it interesting that, you know, you have this police chief coming out, general, saying I', 57 years grew up in this town, I know that you can, you know, thrive as a black man here. You have the police commissioner in Dallas, I mean both extraordinary men. Giving two similar stories.
HONORE: Absolutely. And we ask a lot from our police in terms of sacrifice. You know, in Baton Rouge, the starting salary for a police officer, less than $31,000.
LEMON: Yeah.
HONORE: Matter of fact, their pay would go up if the federal minimum wage was passed, $15 an hour. They make less than $15 an hour. We ask a lot from these young police officers which means, Don, they've got to get another job. They have to have a second job to support their families, most of them. We've got to take that stress off of them, too. So we got to make sure they're properly trained and they don't have to work all this overtime so they can maintain their family. A stressful police officer who's working another 30 hours overtime a week is coming to work tired. And he's stressed out. We've got to fix that.
LEMON: Yeah. Go ahead, Charles, quickly.
BLOW: Can I chime in on this idea of overtime? Because I had a criminologist here, City College of New York walked me through how that works in ways that police may police, right. And he told me that particularly on the kind of the low-end drug arrests that some officers would arrest at the end of their shift because it was your job to kind of process the body all the way through the system and because it was a kid, they were relatively clean, they were not violent and could be with that person and have a safe process and they were basically using that as a way to make overtime to make up that gap.
And that -- when we have that kind of perverse profit incentive in order for people to make enough money that a body becomes a way for you to do that, that is -- we should look at that and call shame.
LEMON: Yeah. We're going to continue to discuss that. These are very important issues, topics here. We're going to continue to discuss it on Wednesday at our town hall at 10:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN. You're a part of it. So thank you, all, very much. I appreciate it. We don't want you here. No, I'm kidding. Of course you're going to be here as well.
When we come right back, under fire at Fox News accusations of sexual harassment against the network chief, Roger Ailes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:31:57] LEMON: So there's new information tonight about the accusations of sexual harassment against the head of Fox News, Roger Ailes. Here to discuss is Gabriel Sherman, a contributing editor at "New York" magazine. And Gabe, as I understand, you have new information. What can you tell us?
GABRIEL SHERMAN, CONTRBUTING EDITOR, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: What I learned tonight is Rupert Murdoch and 21st Century Fox hired the corporate law firm, Paul Weiss, to do an internal investigation of these allegations of sexual harassment against Roger Ailes. And that's a major development because now these outside lawyers are looking into the allegations and what they find could determine Roger Ailes' fate.
LEMON: Tell us a little bit about this law firm. Why is this such a big deal?
SHERMAN: Well, they're a major global law firm based in New York City. They did the Deflategate investigation. So they're brought into the high-profile investigations where corporations and big institutions need to get to the bottom of what they find. And they're professionals. They're going to dig.
LEMON: And that -- they're doing the internal investigation.
SHERMAN: Yes. Yes, so they're interviewing Fox News employees. LEMON: This is not Gretchen Carlson. No?
SHERMAN: No, this is totally separate. They were brought in as a result of this lawsuit because the lawsuit triggered this scandal and Rupert Murdoch was forced to respond and he brought in this law firm.
LEMON: Over the weekend, six more women came forward to accuse Roger Ailes of sexual harassment. Only two on the record. You spoke with them. Do you think they were credible?
SHERMAN: Oh, very much so. I mean, these stories were detailed. They were personal. They lined up with all of my reporting. I wrote a biography of Roger Ailes that was published in 2014. All of their stories fit all of my reporting. And it really seemed credible.
LEMON: So, to the extent that you can share with us how -- what did they say and was it consistent?
SHERMAN: You mean terms of their stories?
LEMON: Yeah.
SHERMAN: Yes. I mean, basically their stories all, you know, line up. I mean, there is no inconsistency. I spoke with them at length.
LEMON: But none of them were -- they weren't at Fox News, were they?
SHERMAN: They're the women who came forward.
LEMON: Yeah.
SHERMAN: The -- They were prior. The six women I spoke to all predated Fox News.
LEMON: OK. He's one of the most powerful men in television. I mean, usually, that's settled behind closed doors ...
SHERMAN: Of course.
LEMON: ... if you have something, I mean people offer a lot of money.
SHERMAN: Yeah, of course.
LEMON: So why is Gretchen Carlson going public with this? She wants her day in court, right?
SHERMAN: Oh, of course. You know, her lawyers are really pushing. They do not want to go to arbitration because when you go to arbitration, it becomes secret. It's behind closed doors as you say.
My sense, and I have not talked to Gretchen Carlson. But my sense from my reporting is that this is really personal for her. This is about her wanting her day to really explain what her experience was like in this boy's club of Fox News of being subjected to what she sees as harassment.
LEMON: So, she was on their marquee morning program.
SHERMAN: Fox & Friends, highest rated morning program.
LEMON: Then moved to the afternoon?
SHERMAN: Yes.
LEMON: Which they said was a promotion. But I think she was on at 1:00 or 2:00 in the afternoon.
SHERMAN: At 2:00 in the afternoon.
LEMON: Yeah. Was that really a promotion?
SHERMAN: Oh, of course not. I mean, the morning show at Fox News is really sets the agenda for the day. It's a much more high-profile perch.
LEMON: Highly promoted, yeah.
SHERMAN: You get the bigger interviews, dayside in the middle of the day. Fox is not a big thing.
LEMON: And then, but they're going to claim her ratings were weak. She's been losing to CNN and others and that type of area, yeah.
[23:40:05] SHERMAN: Yeah. And that's a classic give and take.
LEMON: So, can he survive the scandal?
SHERMAN: Well, that's what everyone is talking about now.
LEMON: Roger Ailes.
SHERMAN: That's what everyone is talking about. It really comes down to what this law firm finds. What this -- if this investigation finds that there was a pervasive culture of sexual harassment at Fox News, everyone I talked to doesn't see a way out for him, that he is going to have to step down.
LEMON: All right, thank you, Gabe.
SHERMAN: Yeah.
LEMON: I want to bring in now Mercedes Colwin, a Fox News contributor, Lisa Bloom, a sexual harassment lawyer and legal analyst for Avvo.com. Thank you for joining us.
MERCEDES COLWIN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Good to see you.
LEMON: Mercedes, you are a legal analyst at Fox New.
COLWIN: I am.
LEMON: What is your view on these allegations that Gretchen Carlson is making? COLWIN: They're completely false. I saw Gretchen in the building. I've been with Fox since 2005. I've seen Gretchen dozens of times, hundreds of times over the years, never an issue whatsoever. She was walking through the halls. All the time she was happy. There was absolutely no indication whatsoever that she was being subjected to any of the allegations she set forth ...
LEMON: Why do you think she's doing it then?
COLWIN: Well, frankly because -- we're here because her contract wasn't renewed. And I've been litigating for a long time. I'm an employment lawyer. I got my full time practice. And this is something we see time and time again in these employment cases.
Someone doesn't get renewed, their contract doesn't get renewed, they get terminated, they get demoted. Whatever it is, whatever these -- and suddenly a disgruntled employee comes forward and says it's because -- I'm going to make up these allegations. It wasn't anything to do with any reality. If her contract was renewed, we wouldn't be here, there wouldn't be a complaint.
LEMON: Lisa Bloom?
LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST, AVVO.COM: You know, it's amusing to me that people think that perhaps a sexual harassment victim would not be able to walk down the hall at work or smile and be professional, or that all of the people at Fox News who have come out on the attack, of course are currently employed there. Show me one person at Fox News who can come out publicly and support Gretchen Carlson and not get fired and then all of the current employees who are rallying around Roger Ailes will have some credibility.
COLWIN: You know what, Lisa, in her own words ...
BLOOM: I'm not done yet.
COLWIN: In her own words, she's come forward. Gretchen claimed that on September 16th, she was -- she had this alleged terrible occurrence encounter with Roger where he was completely inappropriate. That's her gravamen (ph) of her complaint.
Five days later, she writes a detailed thank you note to Roger, thank you for the time you gave me.
BLOOM: Yeah because she's still working there.
COLWIN: Thank you for the opportunities you gave me. And oh, by the way, Lisa, would you put smiley face?
BLOOM: Yes, I would put a smiley face.
COLWIN: No, you would not.
BLOOM: Yes I have been sexually harassed. And I will keep working ...
COLWIN: This is someone she's claiming that harassed her, intimidated her.
BLOOM: OK.
COLWIN: She is not going to sign of and give her a smiley face.
LEMON: So what is Fox trying to -- let me jump in here.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: What is Fox trying to show with these notes they are releasing saying that, you know, she wrote these notes after the allegation?
COLWIN: Don, it's clear, these are in her own writing. Look at that note. There's a smiley face at the end. There's a statement where she says, "I love to stay at Fox News and show you everything I can do. Thanks, Gretchen."
And in the parenthesis at the very end, "Hemmer and me at 7:00 p.m." Do you know what that is? That's -- she's saying to Roger, let me replace Greta, I want that slot.
BLOOM: Yeah.
COLWIN: "Hemmer and me at 7:00 p.m." That's what it says here. Everyone knows Greta has a long ...
LEMON: Maybe she was trying to save her job, Lisa.
BLOOM: Yeah, listen, first of all, the majority of working women are sexually harassed. So I guess all the rest of the women at Fox News who say nothing bad ever happened to them, they're in the minority.
But here's the reality, because I represented sexually harassed women for 30 years and I still do. We go to work with a smile on our face. We try to get through the day. We try to get enhancements in our career.
COLWIN: We don't give our notes to the harasser with smiley faces.
BLOOM: May I speak without being talked over by this preposterous woman.
COLWIN: We don't say, "I love to work there." They don't say that.
LEMON: Let her finish. Mercedes, let her finish.
BLOOM: Apparently not, OK. And I want to say something about the Paul-Weiss Law Firm because I disagree with your last guest.
The Paul-Weiss Law Firm that's doing the investigation, this is a law firm that represents giant corporate entities like Fox News and its parent, News Corp. It does not represent the Gretchen Carlton or the plaintiffs of the world.
So I think this is a very poor choice to do the investigation and it's almost certainly going to be skewed in favor of Fox News. LEMON: OK.
COLWIN: It's not going to be skewed. This is a legitimate -- this investigation is required by law. It is exactly what Fox News should be doing. It has nothing to do with whether they select the right law firm or not. This is what's legally required. That's what they're doing. They're complying with the law. They're doing an investigation of the allegations. Nothing to do with whether there was any merit whatsoever.
LEMON: Certainly very interesting. And that Gabe, I appreciate your reporting. Thank you, Mercedes and thank you, Lisa Bloom as well.
When we come right back ...
COLWIN: Thank you so much, Don.
LEMON: ... which presidential candidate would you say is the most compassionate? You may be surprised to hear who's claiming that title.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:48:45] LEMON: In the wake of day after day of shocking violence in America, Donald Trump says he is a law and order candidate.
And here to discuss that is Buck Sexton, CNN Political Commentator, Maria Cardona, CNN Political Contributor and Democratic strategist and Matt Schlapp, former George W. Bush Political Director. Good to have all of you on.
MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Hey Don.
LEMON: Donald Trump is responding to the violence in Dallas with a new pitch to voters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESUMTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Not only am I the law and order candidate, but I'm also the candidate of compassion. Believe it. The candidate of compassion. But you can't have true compassion without providing safety. It's the job of the next president to make America safe again for everyone. Everyone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So is it true, Buck Sexton, can he be both the law and order candidate and the candidate of compassion?
BUCK SEXTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, I think he definitely looks more like the law and order candidate when compared with Hillary Clinton, and that's all he has to do.
I mean when it comes to compassion, I mean, I think that that's another place where Hillary is going to have some deficiencies, in her ability to connect with voters on an emotional level, on a person-to- person level is one of her greatest inabilities. Actually, that's one of the biggest weak spots that she has.
[23:50:02] And on this issue, I mean look, she's had meetings with Black Lives Matter activist. It's been a tough week for Hillary Clintoin to be posing as somebody who is particularly concern about police, police tactics or -- and when I say concern I mean she's critical of them. She's not concern about the difficulties of the police.
LEMON: But I asked if he can be the compassionate candidate.
SEXTON: Oh no, I think he certainly looks like ...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I did not mention Hillary at all.
SEXTON: I think he looks like -- that's (inaudible). I think he looks like the law in order to candidate in say comparison. But he has no law enforcement experienced. So it's really just all theoretical with him. And, you know, I think he can -- the cops like him. I'll say that.
LEMON: Thank you for answering my question.
SEXTON: I tried.
LEMON: Matt, Oklahoma Governor, Mary Fallin said that Trump is trying to campaign as a racial healer. Do you agree with that?
MATT SCHLAPP, FORMER GEORGE W. BUSH POLITICAL DIRECTOR: You know, I think what he's trying to do is try to -- there's a balance as you've tried to demonstrate in your whole show tonight, Don, which is people don't hate the idea that law enforcement is under attack.
We have assassinations. We have -- people say the most horrible strident things about them. At the same time, we have all of this racial discord around the country. And Donald Trump actually kind of -- I think of very -- a very revealing video that he put online that I thought really explained what he wanted to do.
So, I think he's just trying to hit that balance. But I tell you what, this is an election about up-ending Washington and about security -- economic security, national security, but it's also about our communities and our neighborhoods and people feel very threatened and safe. And this is the theme of this election.
LEMON: Yeah. Maria, do you think Trump is trying to heal the racial division or do you think he is stoking it in some ways with comments, you know, i.e. Mexicans or maybe Muslim ban?
CARDONA: Absolutely stoking it. And so when he talks about being the candidate of compassion, it's cringe worthy and laughable at the same time. Let's remember that this was to your point, Don, the candidate who started his candidacy during his announcement, calling Mexican immigrants rapists and criminals. He wants to ban all Muslims. This is the guy who was stoking violence at his own rallies telling his supporters to punch out people who were protesting. So when people ...
LEMON: It hasn't hurt him.
CARDONA: Well, it certainly helped him win the nomination, absolutely. But what he is doing now is he's doing absolutely nothing to add to his support. Right now, he needs to appeal to a broader section, cross section of this country, and he is absolutely doing nothing in order to do that.
SCHLAPP: I don't think that's right.
LEMON: Yeah.
CARDONA: When he talks about being the candidate of compassion, he doesn't back that up with absolutely anything.
LEMON: Let the respond, Maria.
CARDONA: All of his proposals are completely the opposite.
LEMON: Let her go first and then I'd love to -- go ahead, Matt.
SCHLAPP: Well I mean, Maria, I actually think we'd all have to look at what he's done over the course of last couple of days and say, you know, he's chosen his words more carefully. He's had careful scripts both in the speech and this video message he put forward.
He's talking about healing. I think we all too casually inject race into our politics, and it's rather frightening, because I think our society is more fragile than we realize. And I think what we see with Donald Trump is he's being more careful in these areas. And I think he's going to be rewarded for it.
LEMON: Yeah go ahead.
CARDONA: But he needs to back that up with proposals ...
SEXTON: Maria we had a deal. We had a deal, Maria. No, I'm not somebody who's unwilling to criticize Donald Trump, but on this issue right now, I think he's much closer where the American people are.
Given what we saw in Dallas and given the acceleration of really a virulent anti-cop rhetoric over a period of many months. The fact of the mater is when Donald Trump says, that he stands with the cops on this issue and he stands with their families.
I think that resonates a lot more than anything Hillary Clinton can say.
CARDONA: Well let me -- sure.
SEXTON: And when he talks about ...
CARDONA: Well that I don't agree with.
SEXTON: -- angering and he talks the outreach that she's gone to leftist groups --
CARDONA: Let me tell you that ...
LEMON: He's got to get to Hillary Clinton
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: Let me tell you why that is wrong. When he even talks about being the candidate of law and order and supporting police, absolutely. We all support our men and women in police uniforms who go out there every single day, the vast majority of them are honorable people, honest people who are putting their lives on the line for all of us, for civil society.
But when he leaves out talking about the issue of racial bias, of racism and discrimination that is happening in this country, when he stokes division in this country, when he uses corrosive and divisive rhetoric, and Matt, you give him credit for the last two days?
SCHLAPP: Maria, look at that ...
CARDONA: For god sake, he's been running for almost a year.
SCHLAPP: Maria, look at the video.
CARDONA: And so he's benefiting from low expectations. You have to put him on the like and say ...
SCHLAPP: Maria, don't make me yell like there's other people before us. But if actually look at the tweets over the last couple of days on this topic and you look at the video message he put online, he actually talked about the fact we have to heal our divisions.
I think he used very ...
CARDONA: He said one line about it. One line, Matt.
SCHLAPP: But you know what, give him credit for the fact that ...
CARDONA: One line, no proposals.
[23:55:03] No proposals. It doesn't talk about bringing people together. It doesn't talk about ...
(CROSSTALK)
SEXTON: Come on, Maria, there's a lot to ...
CARDONA: I'm sorry. He doesn't get the credit for that.
SEXTON: Has to bearing on the realities of what could actually be done to make things better.
CARDONA: No.
SEXTON: It was platitudinous. It was a waste of everybody's time and quite honestly for a lot of ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: They will real propose it, absolutely not.
SEXTON: Because they know that when it was politically expedient for Hillary, she was very willing to speak in a way that cops found to be unhelpful about the situation, about their situation day in and day out. I mean, I heard what you've said and I would agree with you. Cops are doing fantastic work all across the country.
CARDONA: And she have said that, always.
SEXTON: But, a lot of people right now requesting, why our senior members to Democratic Party finally just coming around now to the difficulties that police have and the fact it's ...
LEMON: Maria?
CARDONA: It's not just ...
LEMON: Just 20 seconds, Maria.
(CROSSTALK)
CARDONA: They have not -- Hillary Clinton and the Obama administration have been talking about supporting cops, supporting police officers from day one. But what they also have been talking about, which is where Donald Trump has never gone, is that you have to bring communities together and you do that by acknowledging the hurt and the racial discrimination and the racial bias that is inherent in our system.
LEMON: I've got to go.
CARDONA: And if you don't do that, then you don't get credit for saying the word "compassion."
LEMON: Longer than I have -- that the (inaudible) just to let me. Thank you. I appreciate it.
CARDONA: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: Make sure you don't miss out on our CNN Town Hall, CNN Tonight Town Hall. Black, White and Blue: America 2016. It is a no holds barred conversation with people on both sides of the conflict between police and the people they're sworn to protect. That's Wednesday night at 10:00 Eastern. It will be fascinating.
Thanks, again to all my guests. That's it for us tonight. Thank you for watching us. See you right back here tomorrow night. Good night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
