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Police Officer Shot in Michigan; Dallas Investigation. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired July 11, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:04]

BOB GORSKY, KNEW TWO SLAIN DALLAS OFFICERS: I was a wedding. My wife and I were at a wedding, a police wedding, three weeks ago. I introduced my wife to Lorne and his wife, who is also a police officer and a fabulous lady.

I said to Kimmy (ph) afterwards, I said, you know, if I was ever in a dark alley and needed police help, that's the guy I would want watching my back. And it's a shame.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: If you're just joining us, it's the top of the hour and you're watching CNN.

We have been -- this is our special coverage of the police killings in Dallas. And we have been watching a press conference that just took place at Parkland Hospital in Dallas. I'm talking to Bob Gorsky, who is an attorney for Dallas Police Association. He knew two of the slain police officers. He assisted with the ambush investigation.

He was called to the hospital shortly after this all happened.

You were called into the -- excuse me -- the P.D. headquarters just after this ambush. Can you paint that seen for us, Mr. Gorsky?

GORSKY: It was very hectic, to say the least. The pain on the face of all the people who were down there, investigators, other officers. There were officers and detectives called in from off duty, of course. They had to do a job.

At the same time, I'm sure most of them knew at least some if not all of the officers that were injured or killed. But they pressed on and did their job that night and they continued to do their job and have through the weekend and into today.

It was an experience I have never had before. We have responded to many hundreds of officer-involved shootings usually at the scene. But to come out to headquarters Thursday night and be there Friday morning to see this scenario that was unfolding, it's hard to imagine.

LEMON: Yes. How did it affect you?

GORSKY: Well, knowing some of the officers, it was different than I guess the run-of-the-mill case that we might respond to. But all of us have to do our jobs, have to support those that are bearing the burden of this tragic event, and that's what we attempted to do.

Over the course of my career, I have known probably a dozen or more officers who have been killed in the line of duty. It's certainly never easy. The magnitude of this event just made this one very different.

LEMON: Is there anything that stuck out to you from those statements that you have been receiving from the officers involved that night?

GORSKY: Well, this was really an heroic, really heroic effort. And you have heard some of the stories, I'm sure, and I think the stories of heroism that we have heard to date are just the tip of the iceberg.

But in all levels of the department, officers at the scene, or those who responded to the scene ran to the fray. They ran to the bullets and the sounds of the shots being fired. One SWAT officer, he's gearing up with a helmet and equipment and a high-powered rifle, made the comment to me the other night. He said, you know, I got all this equipment on me and I'm ready to go. But I'm running behind a bicycle officer who had his gun out in his shorts, and he's running to the same shooting event that I'm running to.

The patrol officers were rushed to the El Centro College, and they were ready to do whatever was needed up on the floor where the suspect ultimately went. So in all levels of this department, from the patrol to the supervision, the command staff, Chief Brown, have reacted amazingly to this event from the time it began.

LEMON: Bob Gorsky, I can see that you're deeply affected by this. We thank you for taking the time to join us here on CNN. Thank you so much.

GORSKY: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: It is just past the top of the hour. I'm Don Lemon. This is CNN's special coverage of the ambush in Dallas.

We just heard surgeons, doctors, first-responders speaking for the first time since that horrific night in their city, talking about the horror that they witnessed as a number of wounded police officers needed their help continued to rise. Look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. BRIAN WILLIAMS, PARKLAND MEMORIAL HOSPITAL: I understand the anger and the frustration and the distrust of law enforcement. But they are not the problem.

The problem is the lack of open discussions about the impact of race relations in this country. And I think about it every day, that I was unable to save those cops when they came here that night. It weighs on my mind constantly.

This killing, it has to stop, black men dying and being forgotten, people retaliating against the people that are sworn to defend us. We have to come together and end all this. [15:05:15]

I do simple things when I'm out in public. When I see police officers eating at a restaurant, I pick up their tab. Even one time a year or two ago, I bought one of the Dallas P.D. officers some ice cream when I was out with my daughter getting ice cream.

I want my daughter to see me interacting with police that way, so she doesn't grow up with the same burden that I carry when it comes to her interaction with law enforcement. And I want the police officers to see me, a black man, and understand that I support you. I will defend you. And I will care for you.

That doesn't mean that I do not fear you. That doesn't mean that, if you approach me, I will not immediately have a visceral reaction and start worrying for my personal safety.

DR. ALEX EASTMAN, PARKLAND MEMORIAL HOSPITAL: I missed my son's birthday party on Saturday because duty called. And I don't think any of us have really had a chance to stop yet. In fact, I'm the trauma surgeon on call for us right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Certainly an emotional news conference coming after an exhausted and frustrated police chief revealed more about the man who scrawled cryptic messages in blood after shooting 12 police officers, killing five of them.

Chief David Brown also saying he and his family got death threats after his department used explosives strapped to a robot to take the sniper, Micah Xavier Johnson, out. Here he is a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE CHIEF: There was a large stockpile. One of the bomb techs called me at home to describe his concern of how large a stockpile of bomb-making materials he had.

And according to that bomb tech, he knew what he was doing, that this wasn't some novice. And so what's on his laptop, how he learned that, we don't think he learned it in the military. At least we don't have any evidence of that. You can learn all that online, I guess. So we're trying to determine how he learned how to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Also today, the dead shooter's father, mother and stepmother revealing what they think may have caused him to snap.

So let's talk now to Victor Blackwell, CNN anchor, live in Dallas.

And before we get to the parents' interview, Victor, what else did the police chief reveal? What are you learning about what he used and what he did in this ambush? VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: We're learning details from the police

chief, but also from a law enforcement source with information about the investigation, and we're learning about the weapons that the shooter had with him there at the El Centro Building after this standoff ended.

Let's start with the long gun, a Izhmash Saiga. 545-caliber, which is a semiautomatic assault-style rifle. It's a variation of the AK that we talked about so many times over the past several years. Also, a Glock pistol and a Fraser handgun. We're told this shooter also was wearing body armor, bulletproof vest, rather, when he was found there in that building.

Now, the investigation, of course, went to his home in Mesquite, a suburb of Dallas, searching for evidence. We're told that during that search, they found evidence of other gun purchases, including gun box packaging, receipts, some paperwork for a Cobra, a Lorcin, a Walther, and Glock handguns as well. None of those weapons were found inside the home.

However, we do have some details about the Lorcin and the Cobra specifically. This source says they were inexpensive, throwaway weapons. We spoke with a weapons expert on the DPD, the Dallas Police Department, force, and they say that Lorcin specifically goes for about 50 bucks, so very inexpensive weapons.

But you heard from the chief there a substantial amount of bomb-making materials. What were those materials? What were the ingredients? How much was found inside that home? No specific details, though, there. Still a part of the investigation.

LEMON: All right, Victor, thank you very much.

And the shooter's parents gave an exclusive interview to TheBlaze. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DELPHINE JOHNSON, MOTHER OF MICAH XAVIER JOHNSON: The military was not what Micah thought it would be.

QUESTION: It disappointed him.

JOHNSON: He was very disappointed. Very disappointed. But it may be that he -- the ideal that he thought of our government, of what he thought the military represented, it just didn't live up to his expectations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Let's talk about that now.

Criminologist and behavioral analysis -- or analyst, I should say, attorney Casey Jordan.

Casey, the killer had a pistol, a handgun, a semiautomatic assault type-rifle, plus he was wearing a bulletproof vest. What does this tell you about his state of mind?

[15:10:00]

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, of course, he's former military, but what's interesting is since he got out of the Army Reserves about a year or two ago, he has continued his own discipline of self- training, going to a gym that teaches these militaristic tactics, these self-defense moves.

And he's become obsessed with weapons and bomb-making, things that he never really did in the military, where he was, I understand, more like a carpenter. But it means that, in his mind, the disappointment was blooming larger and larger, that he wanted to have a vision of himself that he had not yet fulfilled in his life.

When his parents talk about the fact that his life was just rife with disappointment, and that he had changed since his tour in Afghanistan, we begin to get some insight that this man was suffering with over anomie, despair, hopelessness.

He had some expectations, but there was a disjunction with his expectations and his ability to achieve them.

LEMON: Casey, the chief says the killer was laughing and singing while on the phone with negotiators, just seemed in control. He continued to fire and was asking questions about how many officers he got. What does that tell you about his psyche?

JORDAN: Well, he was all in at that point. He was like a gambler who had gone all in. And Chief brown and everyone analyzing this case based on the bomb-making materials found at his home know that this was probably was not his moment. It was not his Holy Grail. He was actually planning something much bigger.

But the events in Louisiana and Minnesota with these two very questionable shootings of black men at the hands of white officers, again, it festered in him. And in the space of two days, his plan got fast-forwarded to the point where he was ready to act on his anger and his disappointment. I don't think he really planned anything long- term.

I think that on that particular day, he heard about the protest going on in downtown Dallas. He knew it would be full of officers, white police officers. And they were the token, the symbol of his hatred. He had no particular beef with Dallas P.D. It's just he wanted to make a statement, and those innocent officers, those lives that were lost were just his way of sending a message.

LEMON: It's just terrible. Thank you, Casey Jordan. I really appreciate that.

JORDAN: Good to be with you.

LEMON: What may be the most meaningful and divisive plea yet to protesters of the Black Lives Matter movement came today from the Dallas police chief. Here he is. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Become a part of the solution. Serve your community. Don't be a part of the problem. We're hiring. We're hiring. Get out of that protest line and put an application in. And we will put you in your neighborhood and we will help you resolve some of the problems you're protesting about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So joining me now is Alicia Garza. There she is on your screen. She's a founding member of the Black Lives Matter movement.

What's your reaction to the suggestion from the chief?

ALICIA GARZA, CO-FOUNDER, BLACK LIVES MATTER: You know, I have to be honest. I think what's happening right now is that there are high emotions all over the place, understandably. There were five people killed and 12 people overall injured.

That's a terrible thing. And people in our communities are also wounded. We are hurting from watching the slaughter of black bodies on television every single day, more often than not at the hands of a police officer.

LEMON: But what's your reaction to what he said about joining the movement?

GARZA: I will be honest with you. I think it's not logical. There are many, many people in this movement who are making their communities better. Let's be clear that people aren't just sitting in the streets because they have nothing better to do.

We have people who are part of our movement who staffed congresspeople for years. We have people who are a part of movement who are changing laws.

LEMON: There are no police officers that are part of the Black Lives Matter movement?

GARZA: I think that there are. I think that there's a lot of police officers who have said that they understand exactly what we're talking about, that there are deep problems in the departments that they work in, and that they would also like to see those problems solved.

LEMON: Absolutely. And I think this. And you bring up a very good point when you said emotions are high. I think that we all need to listen to each other. Each of us. No matter what side we're on, what color we are, if we're for the movement or against the movement and police officers or whatever. There's not a lot of that. There could be much more of that happening right now.

But when I had another founding member on earlier, and I asked her, she said, no, I don't think that members of the Black Lives Matter movement should become police officers. That would sound to the average person that that a police -- that job may be beneath them, or not worthy of someone who would be in the Black Lives Matter movement. Police officers have tough jobs.

(CROSSTALK)

GARZA: Of course they do. But let me be very clear.

The statement that was made was essentially saying that, you know, you don't know what it's like to solve problems in our community, so what you need to do is come off the protest line and become a police officer.

That's almost like saying if a bus sits in traffic every day, that then your responsibility is to become a bus driver. It's not looking down on it. But it actually scapegoats and skirts away from the problem. The issue that we have is that we have unaccountable, not transparent, lacking oversight policing, which is resulting in the deaths of hundreds of people a year.

[15:15:05]

LEMON: Right.

GARZA: That's unacceptable. And we need to solve problems right now.

LEMON: Well, I think the correct analogy would be if you're sitting on a bus in traffic, then you would become a city planner, rather than a bus driver. That's not the same analogy.

But you think as a police officer, and you're working with the community, because community policing has helped somewhat. It hasn't helped 100 percent. But if you get to know the people in your community, that's when you make a difference. If you can do that as a police officer, wouldn't that be a great thing?

GARZA: You know, here's what I think. I think that as emotions are running high, logic is actually running out the window. And what we need to do is sit together and say we have a problem.

We have a problem...

LEMON: Absolutely.

GARZA: ... of violence in this country that needs to be resolved.

And a lot of the heightened emotions right now really reflect the frustration of inaction. The fact that there has been no action to much sure that we are right-sizing how much money we're investing in the system of policing. The fact that we're not doing enough to make sure that we are making policing as transparent and as accountable to the communities that they serve as possible, those things should be goals that we all share.

LEMON: No, I think that's absolutely right. But to say that can't happen if you become a beat cop, and you become a lieutenant or a sergeant, and then you become a police chief and whatever, and you become like Chief Brown, in charge of a police department which is a highly touted police department, which is reflective of the community, which is a department by most accounts for the most part, the department does the right thing, how can one say that you cannot make a difference as a police officer?

That is completely logical. That's not logic out the window.

(CROSSTALK)

GARZA: I just think that's not what's at stake here. And the spirit in which that's offered is not the one in which you're naming.

(CROSSTALK)

GARZA: So, in all fairness, where we are right now is in a situation where emotions are high. We are also receiving threats, death threats.

There's lots of emotions on either side that are essentially saying you're the problem.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You're right, Alicia.

GARZA: And that's the issue.

LEMON: I want to get to this, because this has also been something that you guys have been criticized for. And I want to get your reaction to it, whether you think it's fair or not, and that's Rudy Giuliani. You have heard his comments, the former police commissioner.

GARZA: I have.

LEMON: Let's listen in, and then we will discuss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI (R), FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK: It's inherently racist, because, number one, it divides us. All lives matter. And when the presidential candidate, the governor of Maryland made the statement that all lives matter, they intimidated him into changing it to Black Lives Matter.

All lives matter. White lives. Black lives. All lives. Number two, the Black Lives Matter never protest when, every 14 hours, somebody is killed in Chicago, probably 70 percent, 80 percent of the time, a black person. Where are they then? That means they don't mean Black Lives Matter. They mean let's agitate against the police matters.

If they meant Black Lives Matter, they would be doing something about the way in which the vast majority of blacks are killed in America, which is by other black men. And Black Lives Matter, therefore, puts a target on the back of police.

If you want to deal with this on the black side, you have got to teach your children to be respectful to the police. And you have got to teach your children that the real danger to them is not the police. The real danger to them, 99 out of 100 times, 9,900 out of 1,000 times are other black kids who are going to kill them. That's the way they're going to die.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So he did correct himself and say he should have said 90 percent, not 99 percent of blacks are killed by other blacks.

But what is your response? And he said, and this is a quote from him, that the Black Lives Matter group is inherently racist.

What do you say to that?

GARZA: Here's my response. It's really unfortunate that former Mayor Giuliani's comments are so far a relic of the past.

Where most people are in this country is understanding that that kind of logic, that kind of rhetoric is not only divisive, but it's not rooted in fact. The reality is when the mayor was mayor here in New York, the conditions in the black communities were not great.

And if we're really concerned about addressing issues in black communities so that there isn't interracial crime, then what we would do is invest more resources into those communities to make sure that people have a shot.

But, overall, what those comments show me is that the former mayor doesn't understand racism, that the former mayor is not actually in relationship to black folks. I have talked to dozens of black people over the last couple of days who say, I don't know what else to do.

Every black parent has a conversation with their children about how to relate to the police. Every single one. Hands on 10:00 and 2:00. Yes, sir, no, sir. Those are things that are prevalent in our communities. So that kind of rhetoric -- if Newt Gingrich can say that he understands racism and that black people in this country have a very different experience than white people, then I'm not sure what's stopping the former mayor.

[15:20:05]

LEMON: I have to go. We have gone on long. I always ignore the voice in my head saying we have to go to break.

But I have to ask you, Black Lives Matter inherently racist, he said that. How do you specifically said that?

GARZA: Racism is a system.

It's not about people being mean to each other. So when we have a system that has black people at the losing end of every single disparity that you can think of, that's what racism is. And that's how we know that the former mayor doesn't actually understand what racism is.

LEMON: Thank you, Alicia. I appreciate our conversation.

GARZA: Thank you. Appreciate you.

LEMON: Thank you for coming on. Thank you very much.

Up next, we're following some breaking news into CNN. Police responding to a courthouse shooting in Southwest Michigan, reports at least one police officer shot. This story is developing. It's right now. We're going to get more information on it and bring it to you right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

LEMON: It is breaking news here on CNN.

Unfortunately, it involves another police officer. This is information that we're getting into CNN. It's very limited. A police officer was shot outside the Berrien County Courthouse in St. Joseph, Michigan, again, a police officer was shot outside the Berrien County Courthouse in St. Joseph, Michigan.

[15:25:00]

That's according to a person who we spoke with at the Berrien County Sheriff's Office. No further information is available about this incident or the officer's condition.

But I want to bring in now Paul Callan, who is a CNN legal analyst and a former NYC homicide prosecutor, right?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: Yes.

LEMON: And talk to me about the security surrounding courthouses, because we often hear about shootings and security issues at courthouses. What happens at these courthouses?

CALLAN: You know, it's changed radically in the last, say, 15 years, Don.

I remember 15, 20 years ago, you would go into a courthouse, no screening, nobody checking to see if you're wearing weapons. Now virtually every courthouse in the United States, you go through a procedure much like you do at the airport with screening for weapons, because there's a great fear and there had been a number of great number of incidents in courthouses of court personnel being shot, even judges being shot in courthouses. So it's very, very tight security at most American courthouses.

LEMON: If you're just joining us, again, we are being told that a police officer has been shot outside of a courthouse in St. Joseph, Michigan. That courthouse is -- the county courthouse is Berrien County.

We have no word on the police officer's condition or the circumstances surrounding the shooting, but we do know it has happened and that is according to someone in the Berrien County Sheriff's Office.

Again, a police officer has been shot.

I'm speaking now with Paul Callan, who is a CNN legal analyst, and he's talking to me about the security procedures around courthouses.

Also Bill Gavin is a former assistant FBI director and he joins us as well.

Bill, help us out here. I'm talking about security and about the safety of officers inside of courthouses. That has been in the news lately. And they have beefed up security at courthouses, as Paul has said.

BILL GAVIN, FORMER ASSISTANT FBI DIRECTOR: Yes, Paul is certainly right on target. You can't go into a courthouse today. I know here in Boston, you can't get through the front door without going through the security checks, similar to metal detectors and whatnot that they use at the airport.

They are a lot more aware of conditions that can happen. I mean, they train also with like the Capitol Police to realize what they do to keep people that would have evil intentions from coming into their buildings there. So it's a situation that's known to everyone at the courthouses. It depends upon the training, the regional training and how well people do their jobs on these screenings before anybody gets into the building.

LEMON: And usually surrounding the courthouse. This says shot outside the courthouse. Right. Usually around the buildings, there's very high security around buildings as well, because...

CALLAN: That's a different matter. It's a lower level of security on the outside. If it's a federal courthouse, they're heavily protected because of terrorist threats. But local county courthouses really are not. It's usually inside where the heavy security starts.

LEMON: OK. We will take a quick break here.

We're going to get more information, the information coming in about a police officer shot outside of a courthouse in St. Joseph, Michigan. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)