Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Breaking News: Police Officer Shot Outside Berrien County Courthouse in Michigan, According To Local Reports. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired July 11, 2016 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:32:29] DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: We're back now following the breaking news here on CNN. It is out of Berrien County, Michigan, where a police officer was shot outside the courthouse. We don't have any information on his or her condition yet, but we're going to bring you updates as we get them.

I want to get to CNN's Deborah Feyerick, who is following the story for us.

Deborah, what do you have?

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Don, what we can tell you is that, that was confirmed to us by the Berrien County Sheriff's Office that one police officer was shot outside the courthouse. Few details right now, but we've got calls into a number of law enforcement agencies to identify exactly what happened, what the circumstances were, and who that person is that they might now be looking for who apparently shot a police officer. So it's really just beginning to break at this moment, Don.

LEMON: Yeah. Deborah, I want you to stand by because I need you to help us out with this, unless you get calls from your sources that you need to call someone. But I want to bring in Paul Callan and also Bill Gavin.

But Paul, I want to go to you first, CNN legal analyst and a former New York City homicide prosecutor. Violence at courthouses inside and outside of courthouses. How often does that happen?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's actually sadly very, very common. When you think about a courthouse, it's, you know, it's the hub of dark emotions and high emotions for a community. Divorce cases, murder cases, robbery cases. The victims are there. The people who committed these offenses are there. There's a lot of bad emotion all confronted at one place.

So, it's not surprising that there are fights in courthouses. And there have been many shootings through the years at courthouses.

LEMON: Is it something that can -- that should be continually looked at, the security, especially outside the courthouses? We've been talking about things that happen at airports now and how they need to secure the perimeter even more. Does that need to happen in courthouses?

CALLAN: I think it has to happen. I mean, clearly it's happened on the interior of courthouses but it's a public resource issue. If you pull that perimeter line out even by a block around a courthouse, there's an enormous requirement of manpower to provide security.

Now, we've done that with federal courthouses. You go to the federal courthouse in any community in America and you'll find heavy security as you approach the courthouse. But to do it in the many thousands of state courthouses would be a crippling financial burden.

LEMON: If you're just tuning in, a police officer shot outside the Berrien County Courthouse in St. Joseph, Michigan. It happened just a short time ago. Our Deborah Feyerick is on the case. She's saying that the Berrien County Sheriff's Office is confirming that to us.

I want to bring in Bill Gavin here who is a former assistant FBI director. Mr. Gavin, what do you make of what Paul just said that security needs to be increased, not only inside, but outside of courthouses as well?

BILL GAVIN, FORMER ASSISTANT FBI DIRECTOR: Well, it's absolutely right. The problem that he -- that we get into is exactly what Paul said. It's a matter of finances and a matter of resources.

[15:35:16] We don't know, in some of the smaller places in the United States, they just can't afford to do these things. We talk about concentric rings of security. Inside the courthouse is that core center that has a higher degree of protection. As you move toward the front door of that courthouse, that's kind of a middle ring. When you get outside that courthouse, that's where there's a soft target.

Now, as Paul said with the federal buildings, they can move that concentric ring outside a block or two, or a block, probably, and prevent something from happening inside, on a sidewalk or anything. But, sooner or later you're going to run into that soft target area when you do those kinds of thing. It's inevitable.

And the country seems to be getting more and more violent and things have to be done. Sometimes they have to bite the bullet to do those -- to make those changes. But I can see a lot of changes being made in small places that can afford to do something like this.

LEMON: It does appear that we're living in a culture of violence right now. A climate of violence in this country. I want you to stand by, Bill Gavin, I want you to standby, Paul Callan, and also Deborah Feyerick.

Again, a police officer shot outside of a courthouse in Michigan. The breaking news right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:40:47] LEMON: We want to get back now to our breaking news. We're getting word that a police officer was shot outside the Berrien County Courthouse in St. Joseph, Michigan this afternoon. We don't have any word of his condition or the circumstances surrounding it but we're following that breaking news here on CNN.

Also, this is just in. From the governor of Michigan, Governor Rick Snyder, tweeting, "MSP," Michigan State Police, "has secured the scene at the Berrien County Courthouse and started its investigation into the shooting that occurred this afternoon."

As we get more information on this breaking news story, we're going to bring it to you right here on CNN. But we also want to stay on top of the Black Lives Matter protests happening around the country.

Philando Castile, the man whose final moments alive were live streamed by his fiancee had been pulled over 52 times between 2002 and 2016. That's coming from court records. And as you know, the last time police pulled Castile over resulted in his death. An officer in Falcon Heights, Minnesota shot him to death.

Well the officer's attorney now says it was for that reason that, "Had nothing to do with race and everything to do with the presence of a gun."

Now, one country singer is focusing on the traffic stop. His video instructing drivers on how to prepare for police approaching a car has been seen more than 32 million times. Coffey Anderson, his latest album is called "This is me," says the whole point of the video is about "Getting home."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COFFEY ANDERSON, COUNTRY SINGER AND SONGWRITER: One of the first things that I do, whenever I got pulled over, I wanted to make sure that my car was completely turned off. The radio is all the way down. That I'm facing forward. Both of my hands are here with my finger out, with my fingers out.

Get your wallet, please. So ...

PATRICK, ACTOR: I'm reaching for my wallet.

ANDERSON: Great. Just awesome actor here, Patrick.

As the cop is approaching, you have to realize he doesn't know what's coming. Follow me, Kenny. But as he's walking up to the car, if he's able to see both of your hands, that's safer for him. What it does, it takes his adrenaline down, because he knows that as he surveys and see those multiple people in the car, there's one person, both hands are here, his safety is already in better hands than what it was.

Do not sit on your wallet. Do not sit on your wallet. Number one, do not sit. You want to have your wallet either in the side of your door, cup holder, or at the front of your dash. You have to have your I.D. pulled out before the cop gets there. Because if you're reaching down as he walks up, you could be pulling a weapon which is going to compromise his safety, which is going to make his adrenaline go up. Because at the end of the day, the policeman wants to go home safely, we want to get home safely. Even if the cop is having a bad day, you have to go home. You've got to make it home. (END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Coffey Anderson now joins me live. Thank you so much for joining us. Why'd you make this video?

ANDERSON: You know, I made this video because I felt like people needed to be educated. There's a lot of tension in our country right now. In the last week, my heart has been broken multiple times as yours.

And I called the sheriff of Tarrant County, who was a friend of mine, Bill Wayburn, and I said, "Hey, let me teach my people as far as my fans and the people that I communicate with the right protocol on what to do when pulled over." And we had a lengthy conversation about 18 minutes early Thursday morning. And then I went straight to my friends and I said, "We've got to make a video. We got to educate people."

LEMON: I know it's been shared, you know, a million times, a lot of times, but what type of reaction have ...

ANDERSON: Yeah.

LEMON: ... you been getting, personally?

ANDERSON: The reaction has been two different sides. One side has been thank you so much. We really appreciate it. I didn't know this. You know, not sitting on my wallet, because typically when people sit on their wallet they're going to reach. Well, to a policeman, it looks like you could be pulling something.

And a lot of people are like, "Wow, that's a great idea." And another comment that I've been getting a lot has been, "Why would I have to do this? Why as a motorist would I have go through all of these steps to make him feel comfortable with me?"

LEMON: So let me read one of them. Let me read one of them and then we can talk about it.

ANDERSON: Please, go ahead.

LEMON: OK, one of them says, "Man, please. So, people have to do all," this is on Facebook, I think. "Man, please. So people have to do all of this, to make an officer feel safe? When they ask you for your I.D. and you reach for it, and they shoot you anyway, then what? Why are we acting like the drivers are the problem? Why don't we get a -- you got a video training officers how to treat and encounter black peoples? Let's do this both ways." What do you say to those comments about that?

[15:45:12] ANDERSON: First of all, I did answer that comment, if not one, very similar. And what I said was is, "You are very right. Your feelings are extremely valid. I understand exactly what you're saying."

The law enforcement officers that I've talked to and to the elected officials that I've had a chance to speak with, they are really trying to find ways to get these cops more educated to even be more calm.

But that's not what my video was about. My video was to help drivers have a protocol that could possibly get them home until we can get more trained officers on the street, which I believe that a lot of police forces are doing right now.

LEMON: Yeah. And listen, I understand why you did it.

ANDERSON: Yeah.

LEMON: But I think people are not listening to each other right now. What you're trying to do is keep somebody alive. It doesn't mean that it's right that they have to do that. Is that you're just trying ...

ANDERSON: Absolutely. And the video was created to streamline communication between law enforcement and between us.

LEMON: Yeah.

ANDERSON: Because it's about going home.

LEMON: But sometimes if you, Coffey, if you ...

(OFF-MIC)

LEMON: Yeah, but sometimes, if you even follow those rules, sometimes, you know, that it's not 100 percent, you know that.

ANDERSON: Absolutely. And that's why my heart was breaking ...

LEMON: Yeah.

ANDERSON: ... especially in the Castile case and what happened there. You know what, this video is not a solution in any form, I think, but it starts ...

LEMON: But it's one tool.

ANDERSON: ... a great conversation as you've done ...

LEMON: Yeah.

ANDERSON: ... for so many years.

LEMON: Yeah, and it's one tool. And, you know, to keep you ...

ANDERSON: It's one tool.

LEMON: .... to try to keep you safe.

I appreciate the conversation. And I like what you've done. And I thank you for coming on CNN.

Perhaps, maybe they should teach us some driver's ed.

ANDERSON: Thank you, Don. I'm proud of it. LEMON: Maybe it should be in a -- thank you, maybe it should be in the driver's manual that what you should do when a police officer stops you. Maybe that'll help a little.

ANDERSON: Absolutely. And I've had teachers actually tell me that they want to show the video to their students.

LEMON: Yeah. Thank you, Coffey Anderson.

ANDERSON: Yeah.

LEMON: All right.

ANDERSON: Thank you, my man.

LEMON: All right. We're following the breaking news. It is out of Berrien County, Michigan, where a police officer was shot outside the courthouse. New information coming in, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Breaking news here on CNN is that -- and it's coming out of Berrien County, Michigan, where a police officer was shot outside of a courthouse.

[15:50:04] I want to bring in now, Deborah Feyerick, with the latest on the information. Deb, what do you know?

FEYERICK: What we know is that the shooting began about 2:30 this afternoon. Emergency crews responding. The courthouse was -- it appears it was evacuated according to reports.

It's unclear, Don, how many people were shot but the County Sheriff is saying that a police officer was shot. Unclear whether that police office was the target or whether the shooter opened fired on other people in addition and the police officer was responding.

So, all of this is under investigation right now. But we do know some very panicked moments there at the courthouse. Emergency crews on scene as they work to clear what is going on there. And we'll have more for you in the next top of the hour, Don.

LEMON: All right, Deborah, I want you to standby because I want to bring in now, Gretta Volkenstein, she's a witness who is on the phone.

Now, I understand, Gretta, that you shot some video. But you're a grad student, you -- this is the video, you said you were driving by, you know people in the building. What did you see?

GRETTA VOLKENSTEIN, WITNESS TO COURTHOUSE SHOOTING: I came -- I live about a block away and I just saw a barrage of cop cars and SWAT and ambulances leaving and fire trucks and I just knew something bad was going on right away. So I have colleagues and friends that work in the government and in the area, so I stopped to a parking lot right outside of the courthouse and just asked the people know what's going on. There were only a few people that I talked to who have been able to get out of the building. They said they heard shots fired on the third floor. We're told to evacuate immediately. They got out. They said they were -- I offered them ride home or help. They wanted to stay. They couldn't leave because their colleagues are inside, trapped in there.

I've gotten some word from other friends who work in local government buildings. They said they are on lockdown right now. They've been trying to relay information to me as they find out what's going on. I heard that they're -- it was an active shooting, just until a few minutes ago, I believe. It's gotten under control. Don't know how many shooters.

Apparently, there were at least one hostage. And from what I heard from a former St. Joe police officer that he said there has been two court county clerks that had been shot. And another friend who works in the government said that they have been confirmed dead.

LEMON: OK, repeat that again. What did you just say?

VOLKENSTEIN: That people have been telling me that they've got confirmation that two county clerks have been shot and are dead. That was as the active shooting ...

LEMON: Yeah.

VOLKENSTEIN: ... was still going on. So I don't know if that's more ...

LEMON: Yeah.

VOLKENSTEIN: People who ...

LEMON: We don't have that confirmed here at CNN. I just want to tell our viewers that. But I understand that you are very close. What is the situation like now, because you said the whole town is on lockdown?

VOLKENSTEIN: Yeah. I live a block away. My kids are on lockdown in the basement. People in all government agencies around the area are texting me saying they're all on lockdown. I think people are worried that there are shooters in the locations. That they are -- as we were here in the outside the courthouse figuring out what's going on, and it's just happening.

I was talking to some people who have just gotten out and they said, "We don't know what's going on. Our colleagues are in there. There are hostages." I think one person said that there was for sure a confirmed dead person and that a friend who works in the government told me that just a few minutes go as well. But it is really unclear.

There's helicopters coming all over now. They keep pushing us back. The original parking lot that I was in, a lot of officers came with guns and just got everybody out of there very quickly, which led us to believe that there was still an active shooting going on and we were not safe.

LEMON: OK.

VOLKENSTEIN: They've now -- they're using that as a triage area, I'm told, that parking lot for the medics. So, I'm said -- the police officer told me that which leads me to believe that there are multiple injuries at least.

LEMON: Yeah. So Gretta, I want you to standby. Just want to update our viewers that there's been a police officer shot outside the Berrien County Courthouse in St. Joseph, Michigan. It all happened not long ago, just this afternoon.

We don't have any more details really on the -- surrounding this. Deborah Feyerick was reporting that it had something to do with a court officer, but again, much of this information not confirmed into CNN.

[15:55:06] We don't have any confirmation of any deaths, as Gretta has said just moments ago, but we're certainly checking on it. Again, this happened outside of a courthouse, the information that we have available. We're speaking to Gretta who shot some of this video. This is a mark hand video that was shot. She shot the video a little bit earlier and Gretta said she lives a block away and knows people inside of the courthouse and says she is still on lockdown as much of the town, right, Gretta?

VOLKENSTEIN: Yup. It's -- nobody knows what's going on right now. Rick Snyder, the governor, somebody told me about a minute ago that he had text/tweeted saying that the area is secure now, that ...

LEMON: He did. He said that they had secured the area and they were checking on the investigation and they would let us know.

VOLKENSTEIN: Yeah.

LEMON: Gretta, I have to get to a break. Thank you so much. We'll continue to speak in the break and then we'll be right back. Don't go anywhere. A police officer shot outside the Berrien County Courthouse, is St. Joseph, Michigan.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)