Return to Transcripts main page
ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT
Two Bailiffs Killed, One Officer Injured in Michigan Shooting; Protesters Blocking Traffic in Chicago; Philando Castile Stopped By Cops 52 Times in Recent Years; Interview with Congresswoman Karen Bass of California; Trump: "I am the Law and Order Candidate". Aired 7-8p ET
Aired July 11, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:10] ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: OUTFRONT next, breaking news. The deadly shooting at a courthouse in Michigan. Two bailiffs killed a sheriff's deputy, wounded. We have new details at this hour.
And the latest on the Dallas ambush and the killer robot used to stop the sniper.
And Philando Castile pulled over 52 times. His death streamed live on Facebook. Did police target him? Let's go OUTFRONT.
Good evening. I'm Erin Burnett. OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news, a courthouse shootout today, two bailiffs shot and killed in Michigan today in a courthouse. The gunfire breaking out late this afternoon. The shooter, and inmate, reportedly grabbing a gun from a deputy, opening fire. In addition to killing the two bailiffs, he also wounded a deputy sheriff and at least one civilian. This comes as days after an army vet killed five Dallas police officers.
Much more on the investigation of the Dallas ambush and what we're learning about that shooter tonight, including a large stockpile of bomb-making materials found during the search of Micah Xavier Johnson's home. A bomb technician telling police the materials made it clear Johnson was not a novice. He knew what he was doing.
But I want to begin of this breaking news out of St. Joseph, Michigan, it's about 100 miles east of Chicago. Deadly courthouse shooting. As we said, two bailiffs have been killed today in a gunfight. Ryan, what more can you tell us?
RYAN YOUNG, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Very heavy hearts here. We just finished talking to the sheriff about 20 minutes ago. There are still S.W.A.T. officers just behind me. Because this remains a very active scene. I'll tell you, this really has impacted this community as they're talking about this. But what we know is investigators are still up there on the third floor when an inmate apparently grabbed a gun from a deputy, opened fire, killing two bailiffs and then shooting that deputy and also shooting that civilian.
We know two others moved in, opened fire, killing him there. When we talked to the sheriff he said he has knew these men for 30 years. He was heartbreaking, he was shaking, and his hand was trembling as he was talking about the impact that this has had. The governor talking about his idea being here to make sure he pays his respect to the ones who lost folks up there. We're going to get another update about this because this active investigation is still ongoing Erin. We're learning more information about every half hour or so.
BURNETT: And Ryan, just at this point, do you have any sense as to motive? Obviously, you're saying he was an inmate. Something -- a crime of opportunity in the context of what we're talking about now with the police violence, with the police-involved shootings, any sense of what the motive might be?
YOUNG: So, we wanted to talk about that and even the procedures that are hear. We found out the bailiffs are all armed and so are the deputies who are armed. But right now we're not sure if this was someone who was just trying to escape or someone who was targeting the ones who he opened fire on. We do know a civilian was also hit in the hallway as he was trying to run through that hallway. So it almost sounds like maybe there was an escape involved here. We've been told, we'll going to get more information within the next few hours or so. Not only about the inmate but the folks who died here, who laid their lives on the line to protect people.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Ryan Young.
And as we await those details we are learning more about the Dallas shooter tonight. Police say Micah Xavier Johnson left behind a mysterious clue before he died, twice scrawling the letters RB in his own blood on walls of the parking garage where he was holed up during the ambush. During a two-hour negotiation, Johnson also told police he had planted bombs around the city.
Kyung Lah is OUTFRONT tonight in Dallas.
KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tonight, New details on the weapons gunman Micah Johnson carried the night he killed five Dallas officers. Law enforcement sources tells CNN, investigators found a glock pistol, another handgun and an AK-style semi-automatic rifle as they pour through the evidence.
CHIEF DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT: There's over 170 hours of body camera video to download. And that is ongoing. Detectives are also collecting all dash cam video.
LAH: Dallas Police Chief David Brown describing the delusional behavior of the cornered gunman, singing, laughing and writing a final cryptic message. The initials, "RB" on the walls in his own blood. Also tonight new details of Micah Johnson's troubled past. Newly released school records show he graduated near the bottom of his high school class, then joining the military. His parents spoke to The Blaze. His mother saying her son wasn't the same after seven months in Afghanistan.
JAMES JOHNSON, MICAH JOHNSON'S FATHER: I didn't see it coming. I love my son with all my heart. I hate what he did. DELPHINE JOHNSON, MICAH JOHNSON'S MOTHER: The military is not what
Micah thought it would be. The idea that he thought our government, what he thought the military represented. It just didn't live up to his expectations.
LAH: While in the army, Micah Johnson was accused of sexual harassment by a female soldier in the spring of 2014 while they were both serving in Afghanistan. He received an honorable discharge. His army service record would include standard, low-level marksmanship training but nothing extensive. Bomb-making material found in Johnson's home, nothing he would learn in the military.
[19:05:15] CHIEF DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT: There's a lot of questions. And it's very complex. This person obviously had some delusion. This person also was very committed to killing officers. To be quite honest, I'm running on fumes.
LAH: Dallas' police chief ungarnished about his own and his department's fatigue. Chief David Brown acknowledging threats against his and his family's life via Facebook. Then candidly, openly spoke about the frustrations of local policing on the eve of the President's arrival in his city.
BROWN: We're asking cops to do too much in this country. We are. We're just asking us to do too much. Every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve.
LAH: And he also says that they're having a hard time trying to retain police officers, especially in this city. Starting salary here in Dallas is $44,000. That's according to the police chief. And in just about an hour, there will be a candlelight vigil, it will be put on just in the area you see behind me, Erin. It is a vigil put on by the police department for the fallen police officers. Five officers expected to speak, each one representing the five lives lost -- Erin.
BURNETT: Kyung, thank you.
And OUTFRONT now, Clay Jenkins, Dallas County's chief executive, the director of Homeland Security and Emergency Management there as well. Thank you very much. I appreciate it, Clay.
I know -- let me just start with some of the new information. We know that Johnson had a journal, that he had been writing things down, perhaps planning in there. Is there anything more you can tell us about that?
CLAY JENKINS, DIRECTOR OF HOMELAND SECURITY AND EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT, DALLAS: Well, it's just a data point that shows us that he was well- prepared. That this was the crime of opportunity for him. He was looking for an even greater amount of mayhem where he could put more IEDs out and build those bombs and so, we're not fortunate because we've had a great loss of life, but it could have been worse.
BURNETT: I mean, when you talk about the IEDs, you know, the police chief obviously today saying a bomb tech who looked at the stockpile in his home said he knew what he was doing and the quote was, this wasn't some novice. You just heard our reporter saying, he wouldn't have had training to do this sort of thing in the military. Do you know how he learned all of this? And did he have any help?
JENKINS: Well, we're looking at that, to see if there's any complicity on anyone else. And they're pouring through that evidence to see about that. I don't want to give people a road map on how they would learn that information, but there are places to get information on how to make an improvised explosive device. And they're pretty readily accessible to people who are committed to getting those. And this was a person who was determined and dedicated to murder as many people as he could.
BURNETT: And Clay, as we're talking, I just want to make sure that our viewers know what they're seeing on the screen here. These are live protests in Chicago. As you can see hundreds, it looks like at least, on our screen, gathering right now, right in front of that sort of blockade of cars that are blocking off that road completely, as you can see, with those cars starting to back up. We're going to be monitoring that.
Clay, let me ask you though. The other thing we heard about is that the shooter wrote "RB" in at least two locations in the crime scene in his own blood. Do you have any progress really at this point in determining why or what that means, "RB"?
JENKINS: I don't know what it means. And the profilers are going to look at a lot of data points. Social media, witness statements, the combat journal. And they're looking for that. But, no, I do not know what RB means.
BURNETT: One of the trauma surgeons I played today who treated the wounded officer spoke. And I wanted to play for you just a little bit of what he said. It was very powerful. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. BRIAN H. WILLIAMS, DALLAS TRAUMA SURGEON: And I want the police officers to see me, a black man, and understand that I support you, I will defend you, and I will care for you. That doesn't mean that I do not fear you. That doesn't mean that if you approach me, I will not immediately have a visceral reaction and start worrying for my personal safety.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: It's very emotional when he said that, Clay. How do you feel hearing that, coming from a black surgeon who saved some of these officers' lives?
CLAY: That sounds like my friend, Brian Williams is who that sounds like. And I know he is a great surgeon and a great man. And I know he also took his daughter to provide things for officers after this happened. And he is shaken by what happened. But, you know, race is a real -- we have a racial divide in this country. And I think that illustrates, you know, what he is saying it illustrates some of the raw emotions that are out there.
You never want this, Brian, and the mayor, the chief. No one wants to have this to happen on their watch. But if something like this has to happen, this is a city that is capable of responding in a way that brings us closer together. We showed that with Ebola. And I think we're going to show that here. We just have to look at life through the perspective of other people and have to be more respectful of one another and more compassionate.
[19:10:45] BURNETT: All right. Well, thank you very much. That was, indeed, your friend, Brian Williams, the surgeon that we heard from. Clay Jenkins, thank you very much.
And OUTFRONT next, pulled over 52 times in just a matter of years. Did police profile Philando Castile?
Plus, new details in the powerful explosives police used to kill the Dallas shooter and the robot.
And the Black Lives Matter movement heavily criticized. Tonight they are not backing down.
[19:14:45] BURNETT: The breaking news, protests growing tonight. Live pictures right now out of Chicago. Let me show you this again. As you can see protesters have come out across the street, blocking, it looked like, from where I can see, originally like four or five- lane road there in Chicago. These protesters are gathering though. And this is the third day in a row you've seen protests like this in Chicago as this grows, coming as new criticism is mounting of the Black Lives Matter movement. The protesters are on the defensive. Police say, the Dallas shooter was, quote, "Upset about Black Lives Matter" before he killed the five Dallas police officers in an ambush.
Miguel Marquez is OUTFRONT.
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Black Lives Matter, the movement keeping up the fight. But the deaths of the five Dallas police officers during the Black Lives Matter protest has brought criticism like never before.
CHIEF GREG ALLEN, EL PASO POLICE: The Black Lives Matter as far as I'm concerned it's a radical hate group. The consequences of what we saw in Dallas are due to their efforts.
MARQUEZ: Autumn Marie is a Black Lives Matter organizer in Harlem. She has been with the organization from the beginning, from the acquittal of George Zimmerman, the death of Trayvon Martin, to the shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, to the death of Freddie Gray in Baltimore. She says Dallas may have complicated their efforts, but the movement won't back down.
AUTUMN MARIE, BLACK LIVES MATTER ORGANIZER, NYC: It's the response to Dallas that might make it harder but it's the response. And it's the response that people -- people have a choice in how they respond.
MARQUEZ: The choice response for some? Blame the Black Lives Matter movements for dividing America.
RUDY GIULIANI (R), FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: When you say Black Lives Matter, that's inherently racist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think they --
GIULIANI: Black Lives Matter, White Lives Matter, Asian Lives Matter. Hispanic lives matter. That's anti-American and it's racist.
MARQUEZ: Organizers like Autumn Marie say Dallas was a horrible incident that never should have happened but Black Lives Matter had nothing to do with it.
MARIE: We will not allow a tragedy, and tragedies that were not committed by us or anyone affiliated with us and are completely not connected to us to then stop the movement. We will not allow them to then say, we'll take a seat in the back of the bus.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is bigger than Philando.
MARQUEZ: The shooting deaths of Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and Philando Castile in Minnesota are just two of the most extreme incidents driving support for the Black Lives Matter movements in the U.S. and around the world. Castile was pulled over 52 times from 2002 to 2016, causing many to suspect he was racially profiled. It is treatment like that, the Black Lives Matter movement hopes to eradicate.
(on camera): Whatever momentum you had, you're trying to regain that now, yes?
MARIE: It gives us more work to. We've fought really hard in the last two years.
MARQUEZ: And this is what the movement doesn't want to see go away, all the progress that is made. Or they feel they've made over the last two years. They want to draw a very sharp line between what happened in Dallas and between what they say is inequality and racial injustice when it comes to dealing with police -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Miguel, thank you very much.
And OUTFRONT right now, criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor, Paul Martin, former NYPD officer and private investigator Bill Stanton and former NYPD criminal justice professor and NYPD Lieutenant Darrin Porcher.
Okay. Good to have all of you with me. Bill, let me start with you. Rudy Giuliani, Black Lives Matter. He says, inherently racist. Does he have a point? BILL STANTON, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: Well, I don't know if it's racist but it's segregation. I would have far more respect for Black Lives Matter if they could define themselves. What is Black Lives Matter? Is it just cops? Is it white cops? And I would love to see that crowd that's in Chicago now protesting for all the black people, black youths especially that are killed every week in Chicago by other people.
BURNETT: That is one of the issues, Paul, right? I mean, look at Chicago as a perfect example. Black lives are lost every day. And they don't protest over that.
PAUL MARTIN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I'm not so sure that's accurate. I think the black leadership has raised this issue regarding deaths in Chicago and I don't believe Mayor Giuliani is one who could point a finger regarding divisiveness in this country. He was the one in 1992 who stood up on a police car and yelled at the police officers, riled them up as they yelled racial insensitive remarks. He was a mayor that locked the door and would not allow black leadership to speak to the people. He was the one who basically called Mayor Dinkins and took credit for what he did, by bringing police officers into the state.
STANTON: I think that's unfair.
[19:19:19] MARTIN: No, it's not unfair. And he has some nerve, some nerve making a judgment call on Black America when he has a -- a -- and in his own eye he lives in a glass house. He shouldn't throw stones.
STANTON: You're giving opinion. I'll give you math. If you do the metrics on when he brought in Bill Bratton and the reduction in crime in New York City, saving everybody's lives.
DARRIN PORCHER, FORMER NYPD LIEUTENANT: No, no. Bill, you lay out a very important point. He mentioned the safe city streets Bill, that was something that was introduced by David Dinkins. Mayor Giuliani had the ability to reap the benefits of those massive resources. But just going back to what you -- and that's why the crime went down. Because you had the resources. But going back in connection with what you mentioned in terms of Black Lives Matter --
PORCHER: I'm not a proponent of Black Lives Matter. However, they did introduce a very important narrative, that it was cantankerous relationship between police and community and now we're talking about it on a national level. Just alleviate the rest of that stuff. We're having that conversation. Discourse is necessary to make a change in policing community relations.
BURNETT: What about what you just hear Darrin, that piece though, the El Paso police chief, calling it a radical hate group?
PORCHER: I disagree with that. But he has a right to make that statement. Free speech is protected under the first amendment. I believe that there are a lot of issues in connection with the Black Lives Matter movement. However, I don't perceive them as a hate or racist group. Bill may feel that way. That's fine. You have that right. But that's just not my take on it.
STANTON: Every major protest -- it may not be all of them but what you're hearing, pigs in a blanket. You know, no justice, no peace.
So what do you call that? In every major protest, there is some of that vitriolic stuff going out there.
PORCHER: Bill, Bill --
STANTON: For years and years.
MARTIN: Someone has to -- these issues and has to open a dialogue.
PORCHER: What issue?
MARTIN: What issue?
PORCHER: What issue?
MARTIN: The dialogue --
(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)
If you don't recognize the fact that there is a problem with race relations in this country and that black people have continuously and -- continuously have been treated in a manner which is unfair, you can look at the criminal justice system as a whole. You can look at all the deaths that have taken place. Five hundred and fifty nine.
STANTON: Ferguson? Are you going to say Ferguson?
MARTIN: I can see in many cases.
PORCHER: But, Bill -- let's talk about what's happening right now.
You're looking at different issues. And I don't want to say they're aberrations. But I will say this. It's incumbent upon the leaders of the Black Lives Matter movement to martial in and ensure that the people come into these demonstrations and they abide by having a safe and protected demonstration. When we look back at what Black Lives Matter did recently, they had a moment of silence in connection with the shooting deaths of these police officers. The movement has a lot of work to be done. And I'm going to tell you, I don't agree with a lot of the principles. But it goes back to what I said earlier, Erin. They introduced a very significant narrative in that. This is cantankerous relationship between police and the community.
BURNETT: And that's important subject. And there's also a point to be made with what you're saying. OK, which is that when you look at -- President Obama has talked about this, right, that the majority of young African-American men are shot by other young African-American men. It's Black Lives Matter, it needs to be about all black lives not just outrage when it involving police, white police.
MARTIN: The black people are a monolithic group. We have plenty of people who can speak for us. This is one segment that speaks to an issue that we have. We have black clergy, they are speaking to an issue in which we have. We have black attorneys are doing the same. So, I wouldn't put all our eggs in one basket.
BURNETT: So, the police -- let me just -- the police chief in Dallas had an offer today, for people that are frustrated, OK? And here's how I want to put it and I want to see if you think this is constructive or insulting. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Don't be a part of the problem. We're hiring. We're hiring. Get off that protest line and put an application in. And we'll put you in your neighborhood.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PORCHER: I think it's very effective. What the police chief is focusing on is if you're uncomfortable with the organization, then you can become a change agent and, in turn, affect change in this organization. We can provide -- we can have more African-Americans, Latinos or minority groups in general that can partake in this police department. And I will say this much. The Dallas PD is a really an unfair example. Because the diversity in the Dallas PD, in the community policing strategies as they've been employing there have been phenomenal.
PORCHER: It's just unfortunate. We've rested on this based on the shooting of the five officers, the death of the five officers and shooting of the additional six.
BURNETT: Get out of the protest line and get a job is basically what he said.
MARTIN: Well, I don't know why he said that.
BURNETT: And put in an application. The implication is pretty clear. Get off the protest line and come work with us.
[19:24:10] MARTIN: I think we all agree that, we believe that the police departments need to be more diverse. And if we can bring in individuals from those neighborhoods to actually patrol those neighborhoods rather than having occupying forces that come from someplace else and move into these neighborhoods, it would alleviate some of the tension in our neighborhoods.
STANTON: Two things. Education within the inner cities making it not a bad thing to become the po-po, not to become a cop. And the question I have, is other than the color of the cops in that shooting, with the alleged perpetrators --
MARTIN: Which one?
STANTON: Two shootings, in Baton Rouge and Minneapolis. Other than the color of their skin, where is there any proof that it was based on racism, not lack of training, not justified?
BURNETT: At this point, we don't know. We don't have all the --
STANTON: Exactly right.
BURNETT: You have the video of the point in time that you have. That was the implication.
STANTON: That's exactly right.
BURNETT: We don't have all the facts.
STANTON: But yet our leaders are saying, it's racism. And I don't like that.
MARTIN: What we're saying is that there is a consistent and constant situation where black people are dying at the hands of white police officers. And that is a problem.
PORCHER: These incidents were the catalyst to something else. We had -- once again, this divisive relationship with police and community has been something that's been going on for years and years. It just so happens these two shootings brought everything to a head. And that's why we're at the place that we are.
BURNETT: All right. Pause there. Thank you all very much.
And next, when a Minnesota man was killed by police during that traffic stop, it was the 53rd times that he had been pulled over. So, was he the repeated victim of racial profiling or was it something else?
And a talk show caller threatening violence against cops. Does free speech end with language like that?
[19:29:42] BURNETT: The breaking news. Protests across the country tonight. Right now, protests growing in Chicago. We showed you that there, they have been blocking off some major intersections. Also across the country in Sacramento. Protesters are gathering again tonight for the third day. We saw in Chicago. But as you can see now in cities across this country, more than 300 people were actually arrested in protests this weekend while demonstrating against police brutality.
[19:30:06] Tonight, we have new information about Philando Castile, the black man shot by police following a traffic stop in Minnesota. We are learning that he had been pulled over at least 52 times in recent years. So, this would have been the 53rd. Was it profiling?
Rosa Flores is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When this video of the final moments of Philando Castile went viral, protests erupted, calling the killing of a black man during a traffic stop racism at the hands of police.
Some politicians quick to say it was racism as well.
GOV. MARK DAYTON (D), MINNESOTA: Would this have happened if those passengers, the driver or passenger were white? I don't think it would have.
FLORES: Now, court records reveal castile was no stranger to seeing red and blue lights his rear view mirror.
(on camera): Before his last traffic stop at this intersection now turned memorial, Castile had been stopped 52 times since 2002, according to court records, for things like driving with a suspended license and no insurance.
Which raises the question, was Castile racially profiled until the day he died? Racial profiling expert and University of Minnesota professor Myron Orfield has been studying law enforcement racial profiling in the twin cities for 15 years.
Would you say that he was probably racially profiled?
MYRON ORFIELD, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA PROFESSOR: Well, I would say that looking at the record, it's consistent with a pattern of being racially profiled.
FLORES: We've been seeing this #drivingwhileblack. Is that what the data is showing?
ORFIELD: Well, I think, you know, it certainly suggests that that's what's happening. Particularly when you look at a case like Mr. Castile's. You take a look at his driving record. He's got an awful lot of stops. It suggests a pattern of very aggressive policing.
FLORES (voice-over): The attorney of the shooting officer told CNN in a statement that the tragic incident had nothing to do with race and everything to do with the presence of a gun.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just killed my boyfriend. He's licensed to carry. He was trying to get out his I.D. and his wallet out.
FLORES: Minnesota law enforcement tells CNN that the law prohibits them from confirming to the media if Castile had a license to carry a gun. A police commander who knows Yanez thought the Minnesota chapter of the National Latino Peace Officers Associations says was not a factor. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To say that it was a racially motivated, that
there was a racial element, I wholeheartedly disagree with that. He's all around pretty nice guy, to tell you the truth.
FLORES: Now, as you take a look around me, you can see that the memorial here at the shooting scene keeps growing. As for the latest in the investigation, the state agency in charge tells me that they have finished interviewing all of the police officers involved. And, Erin, until this point no U.S. DOJ investigation. We do know that the U.S. DOJ is assisting this state agency -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Rosa, thank you very much.
In the hours after that shooting, Congresswoman Karen Bass appeared on a C-Span show to talk about police-involved shootings. One viewer called in referring to himself as Malik from Arlington, Texas, threatening police. And I want to warn that what you're about to hear is disturbing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We'll go to Malik in Arlington, Texas, independent.
Thanks for waiting, Malik. Go ahead.
MALIK: Yes, first of all, I would say that police brutality and police state-sanctioned executions of black people have been happening since the early 1900s. We have to get over this nonsense of asking our oppressors for justice. We, as black men, have to unite, mobilize, arm ourselves to combat the hostility that's been thrust upon our community by these people over the last 400 years. I have the god-given right to be on this planet. If they want to come after me with hostile intentions, with violence, I must go back at them with hostile intentions and violence.
REP. KAREN BASS (D), CALIFORNIA: Oh my, my, my. Well, what I do believe is new, is a cell phone camera and live streaming. Heaven help us if the answer to this is to go after in a violent manner at law enforcement. I think that is a terrible idea.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: That was just hours before the Dallas ambush.
Congresswoman, the timing there -- I know that that struck home to you. What were you thinking as you heard that call, as you heard what that man was saying?
BASS: Well, really, my heart sank because I felt, first of all, an individual that was essentially making a suicide call. He was saying I might commit suicide and take out as many people as I can on my way out. And I just thought that was devastating. Obviously, somebody that, you know, has serious issues. [19:35:04] and I hated the thought that somebody would actually do that, that the level of hopelessness had reached the point that someone would consider committing suicide because, clearly, that's what it would be. That's absolutely what it was in Dallas.
BURNETT: In Dallas and, obviously, this man was calling from a suburb of Dallas, a different one than where the gunman, Micah, was from. But you thought it might, indeed, be the same person?
BASS: Well, we certainly thought he we should bring attention to that. But, you know, the fact of the matter is what happened in Dallas was just a horrific tragedy from somebody who clearly was unstable, had mental health issues. And I'm just concerned that we don't then collapse what a deranged individual did with a movement that has been relatively peaceful, where no one has called for anything like this.
You know, we have to remember that the protest that was happening in Dallas was going very well. There were pictures of police officers and protesters.
BURNETT: And yet, you know, when you talk about how disturbed you felt when you heard this call, you know, we played that audio to a friend of the Dallas gunman. He said that is most certainly not his voice. They do have a different name and were from different towns.
So, that would mean that yet another person was saying that black men need to arm themselves to combat police. We understand there was yet another caller who said similar things on that same show. So, you have two callers there. You have what this man did in Dallas. That is frightening.
BASS: Well, you know what? It is frightening. I think we have to be very, very careful and not go off the deep end, because one of the things that can happen, if we begin to think this is what's going to be happening in our communities, then I'm afraid it would lead to more police-involved shootings. We have to be very careful that we don't get extra paranoid because of people who call in.
You know, for any call-in show, you get a whole lot of different people that make these calls. So, I think it's important that we not overreact.
BURNETT: Yes. Although, I do want to emphasize, you did contact the FBI. If it, indeed, turns out that that caller is not the Dallas shooter but someone else saying these same things, what do you think should happen to this person? I mean --
BASS: I'm sure -- first of all, if I didn't know if it was him or not. I'm sure the FBI will follow up. If it wasn't him, whoever it was, that they will talk to and hopefully they'll be able to talk the individual off the ledge. And, hopefully, it was somebody who was just spouting because he was angry and not that he intends to do anything at all.
BURNETT: All right. Well, congresswoman, I very much appreciate your time tonight. Thank you for being with us.
BASS: Thanks for having me on.
BURNETT: OUTFRONT next, new details on the robot that was used to take out the Dallas sniper. We're going to show you exactly how it works.
And Donald Trump speaking out on the Dallas police shootings tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I am the law and order candidate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:41:57] BURNETT: Breaking news, protesters growing across the country. Sacramento, California, is what you're looking at right there. Protesters gathering there. Obviously, only still in the afternoon in California.
We're looking new details tonight about the robot armed with explosives that killed the Dallas gunman as all of this began.
Sara Sidner is OUTFRONT.
SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT ( voice-over): A robot and pound of C-4, this is what Dallas police used in an unprecedented move to save officers' lives. In the heat of battle, the Dallas police used the extraordinary tactic, likely a first in America, a robot with a bomb, to kill a cop-killing sniper.
CHIEF DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT: We knew from negotiations this was the suspect, because he was asking us how many did he get. And he was telling us how many more he wanted to kill.
SIDNER: He had already killed five officers, wounded seven and two civilians during a 45-minute gun battle.
OFFICER: Slow down. He's in the damn building right there. He's in that building!
SIDNER: Chief Brown made the final call after a two-hour negotiation. He told his SWAT team to come up with a creative plan that would keep officers out of the line of fire. And take out the suspect.
BROWN: They improvised this whole idea in about 15, 20 minutes. Extraordinary.
SIDNER: That plan involve this had kind of robot, secured C-4 explosive.
(on camera): So, that right there is a pound of C-4?
MATT BARNETT, EXPLOSIVE EXPERT: Yes. This is 454 grams of C-4.
SIDNER (voice-over): We asked explosive expert Matt Burnett (ph) to show us how this would work in the scenario detailed by the chief.
First, officers had to maneuver the robot to the second floor. This is a similar model. Notice the arm extension. That would have held the C-4 in place. Police then had to get it close without the suspect knowing it was there. It was positioned behind a brick wall.
BARNETT: This two-by-four right here is going to simulate that arm of a robot. This C-4 will be attached to this arm directly against the wall right here.
SIDNER: We set up strategically placed cameras and built a brick wall with rebar inside to demonstrate the blast range.
(on camera): To give you some idea of just how powerful a pound of C- 4 can be, we're standing more than a football field away from that wall. And when it explodes, those fragments could be dangerous to the human body even here. That is outside.
(voice-over): Inside a building, Barnett says damage to the human body would be exponentially worse.
BARNETT: In a close environment, yes, a pound of C-4 is a lot.
SIDNER (on camera): So, it wouldn't necessarily be the blast that killed the person but the fragments that killed the person?
BARNETT: That's right. Yes, the wall becomes the lethal aspect.
SIDNER: It would go right through you?
BARNETT: Oh, absolutely. Like butter.
SIDNER: Asked whether chief brown would use that same unprecedented tactic again, he said absolutely, if it meant that it was going to save his officers or someone in the public's life.
And as far as how much that robot costs, $150,000.
[19:45:04] The C-4 costs $20 for a pound -- Erin.
BURNETT: Wow. Incredible. Thank you so much, Sara Sidner.
And OUTFRONT next, Donald Trump on the Dallas shooting, he's calling himself a law and order candidate.
And Jeanne Moos on the iconic women seen in these images. That image capturing the hearts and minds around the world.
We'll be back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BURNETT: Tonight, Donald Trump saying he is the law and order candidate, and then appealing to Americans to stop hostilities against law enforcement officers.
Jason Carroll is OUTFRONT.
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Donald Trump tonight showing solidarity with law enforcement in the wake of last week's attack on police officers in Dallas.
TRUMP: It's time for hostility against our police and against all members of law enforcement to end, and end immediately right now.
CARROLL: Trump's event today was billed as a speech focused on reforming care for veterans. The presumptive GOP nominee outlined a ten-point plan to improve the V.A.
But Trump also took the opportunity to hammer away at Hillary Clinton.
TRUMP: I am the law and order candidate.
Hillary Clinton, on the other hand, is weak, ineffective, pandering and, according to her recent e-mail scandal, she's either a liar or grossly incompetent.
[19:50:04] CARROLL: Repeatedly blasting his Democratic rival.
TRUMP: Crooked Hillary Clinton is the secretary of the status quo. Wherever Hillary Clinton goes, corruption and scandal follow.
CARROLL: The Clinton campaign launching a preemptive strike today, releasing a web video, highlighting Trump's apparent praise for dictators.
TRUMP: Saddam Hussein was a bad guy, right? Do you know what he did well? He killed terrorists. He did that so good.
CARROLL: Trump getting some help on his attacks against Clinton by New Jersey Governor Chris Christie.
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: The Democratic nominee for president lied to the American people. That's not a person that will stand for the rule of law. That's the person that will stand for the rule of her.
CARROLL: Sources familiar with the Trump's search for a running mate tell CNN Christie has now been fully vetted. Others on the short list include Indiana Governor Mike Pence, who will be joining Trump on the trail tomorrow.
GOV. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: This country is facing great challenges at home and abroad. I think we need a strong leadership supporting our troops, strong leadership getting this country moving again, and we need clear minded leadership to make common sense conservative appointments to the Supreme Court of the United States.
CARROLL: While former House Speaker Newt Gingrich is reportedly lobbying for the slot.
CARROLL: And, Erin, another name being floated, retired Lieutenant General Michael Flynn, who may have hurt his chances by seeming to change his position on abortion rights in the course of just two days. In interviews telling one network it's a woman's right to choose. Then the next day telling another network he is a pro-life Democrat and that people may want pro-life judges who can change the laws and that he believes the law should be changed.
Trump could announce his running mate as early as this week. As for Clinton, well, Erin, she is gearing up for her appearance with Bernie Sanders tomorrow. At that time, Sanders is finally expected to endorse Clinton -- Erin.
Thank you very much, Jason.
And OUTFRONT now, former advisor to four presidents, including Reagan and Clinton, David Gergen.
David, Donald Trump says he is the law and order candidate, playing to his base here. How effective is that?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Erin, several candidates have used it in the past, especially in the turmoil of the '60s. In 1964, Barry Goldwater ran on that theme. He lost. He was too extreme for the country. In 1966, Ronald Reagan ran on that theme to be governor of California. He won. In 1968, Richard Nixon ran on that theme for the White House and he won.
So, Trump, I think, is wrapping himself in something that has been compelling in the past. The question remains over his campaign, is he too much like Goldwater? Is he too extreme for the country to accept? His flirtation with racism, some would say his direct association with racism, does hangover him.
He's got -- even as he talks about saluting the police and understanding and appreciating the police, he needs to show sympathy and understanding and empathy, if I may say so, and to do what Hillary Clinton has argued, and that is more people -- and Barack Obama has argued, more white people need to listen to the voices of blacks if we're really going to solve this together.
BURNETT: All right. Because you hear him. I mean, you know, today, he came out with a tweet we have the horrible shooting of the bailiffs in Michigan. He came out then with a tweet. Of course, he had not done so in the immediate aftermath of the two black men shot by police last week. GERGEN: Erin, his issue is always overplaying his hand. You know,
this is -- law and order does play to a strength. People in the midst of turmoil, of uncertainty, they look for strength in a leader.
What we've seen around the world and country after country is a rise of what we call Caesarism, and that is a rise of a strong man who responds to public pressure for law and order. That's what helps Trump. But his extremism on race and other issues may sink him.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, David Gergen.
GERGEN: Thank you.
BURNETT: And next, Jeanne Moos with the stories behind some of the most stunning moments captured by photographers and protests over the past few days.
[19:57:42] BURNETT: Some of the most dramatic moments during the protests have been captured on camera. Here is Jeanne Moos.
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Put the hostility on hold.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I appreciate you. I appreciate what you're doing.
MOOS: From hugging a cop to opposing protesters hugging each other.
Black Lives Matter protests met with a few countered demonstrators in Dallas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Black Lives Matter. We all matter. Hell.
MOOS: Ended up with most of the black lives matter group joining the counter protesters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: United we stand. We're all brothers here.
MOOS: For a group hug.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody get it in. Everybody get it in.
MOOS: There were arms wrapped around each other and hands held in prayer. This woman said on Facebook she could feel the officer shaking.
But the photo that seemed to shake up the most people, was this one, taken as police moved in to remove protesters blocking a Baton Rouge highway. Maybe it was the contrast in clothing. This photo of police, looking like something out of Star Wars while the woman seemed to look beyond them as she was about to be handcuffed went massively viral. For a while she was just a protester in a summer dress until she was
finally identified as a licensed practical nurse from New York City, attending her first protest.
Photographer Jonathan Bachman told the Atlantic it wasn't very violent. She didn't say anything she didn't resist. The police didn't drag her off.
The woman, identified as Ieshia Evans wrote on Facebook, "This is the work of God. I am a vessel." some called it reminiscent of Tiananmen Square's tank man. To which one commenter responded, "A powerful image, but this is no Tiananmen Square. She did not risk being crashed under a tank in a sacrificial bid to bring down an entire government."
She did spend the night in jail, but she'll spend eternity immortalized on the Internet.
Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
BURNETT: Something almost other worldly about how she is staring beyond them.
Thank you so much for joining us. Don't forget, you can watch OUTFRONT any time, anywhere on CNN Go.
"AC 360" begins right now.