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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Philando Castile Shooting Case Examined; Balck Lives Matter Protestor Talks about His Arrest and Police Shootings; Baton Rouge District Attorny Holds Press Conference. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired July 11, 2016 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:32:15] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: We're learning more about Philando Castile who was shot and killed by a police officer in Falcon Heights, Minnesota.

Court records show that Castile had been pulled over at least 52 separate times by law enforcement in Minnesota from 2002 to 2016. That is an average of more than three times every year. The reasons ranged from speeding to seatbelt violation to driving after his license was revoked. But it doesn't solve the puzzle which is top of mind right now, why was he pulled over last week and what happened?

The attorney for the police officer who shot and killed Castile maintained that the shooting quote "had nothing to do with race and everything to do with the presence of a gun." The attorney for the family says, she doesn't want to dignify that with a response.

Joining me now, Alexis Johnson, executive director of the Perception Institute. Talk about that in a moment. Also back with us, CNN Law Enforcement Analyst Cedric Alexander. He served as the president of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, knows a thing or two from both sides of this debate. He's also written a book called "The New Guardians: Policing in America's Communities for The 21st Century."

Alexis, if I can start with you, the Perception Institute. If no one knows what that is in a nutshell, what is that?

ALEXIS JOHNSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PERCEPTION INSTITUTE: It's a consortium of social psychologists mostly and strategists. They're trying to translate new research around kind of the mind sciences and put the bias racial anxieties stereotype threat into how teachers, how police officers, how doctors are all operating in understanding grief and the implications and what kind of solutions we have to pinpoint them.

BANFIELD: If you take just bare numbers and I know that you look inside those numbers for more intricate reasons for why things happen, they're pretty fascinating. I think people struggle with trying to understand why we have what's going on out there when you have these kind of numbers?

These are the number of Americans killed by police in 2016. Americans, straight up, 512 people. Break those into whites, 238, black people, 123, Hispanic, 80, and then it goes on to say 300 -- 283 of them had a gun, 89 of them had a knife, 35 in total 35 had nothing, they were unarmed.

And if you look at the police killed in the line of duty. We've got FBI statistics that say in 2015, 41 officers were killed. And in 2014, 51 officers were killed. So, there you go, there's just the numbers but inside the numbers of those who were black and those who were white being shot and killed by police, clearly, there is, you know, more than two times the number. Almost two times the number of those who were black were killed were white.

[12:35:11] But you believe -- through your Perception Institute, you've been able to see that there is this anxiety or a bias of some kind that has officers reacting faster and shooting faster when the person is black?

JOHNSON: Well, actually, it's the Center for Policing Equity and the head of the Center for Policing Equity is a researcher named Phil Goff who is one of our research advisers who has just issued a report on Friday that talks about how, you know, do you remember Jesse Williams at this, you know, a couple weeks ago said, why is it that cops somehow seem to be able to deescalate when the suspect is white.

And yet, there is research now through CPE that confirms that when the suspect is black, cops are faster to shoot them. And so, what we're seeing is that it's not just kind of the implicit bias that has kind of come up in the news over the last few years but it's also a high degree of racial anxiety and a high degree of masculinity threat. That when cops are experiencing racial anxiety, they tend to use force more.

BANFIELD: I'm going to interrupt only for one moment if I can. And Cedric Alexander, I'll ask you to stand by because in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, the district attorney is giving a news conference. This is, of course, the location where Alton Sterling was shot dead last week.

HILLAR MOORE, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: We continue to ensure justice for all parties in this matter. In this specific case, as with each of the cases that we have heard off in the seven years that I served this community as district attorney, my office is committed to ensure justice for all parties is accompanied by my equal commitment to complete transparency to ensure that justice will remain the objective focus of the investigation surrounding the circumstances of Mr. Alton Sterling's death.

I, along with other city and state officials place the call to the fellow authorities on the night of July 5th for questioning involvement and assistance in this matter. While I have no direct relationship with either officer, I feel it's of utmost importance that I disclose the personal relationship that I have had with each of Officer Salamoni's parents over the past several years as outlined in the report that my office made available online for you today.

Trust in our criminal justice system is as important as transparency. Due to the professional relationship that I have had with the parents of one of the officers involved in this shooting, the best way that I can maintain that trust is to request another prosecutor be appointed in my place.

I have reached out to representatives of the Sterling family, the community, faith-based leaders and law enforcement to provide all of them with the reasons for my recusal. Our community leaders, our police, our protesters, our citizens, each deserve all of our support as we resolve to move forward together.

I have done a lot of listening over the past week. I encourage everyone to continue this meaningful dialogue which has taught me so much. Let me speak personally to you today and directly to the citizens of Baton Rouge.

Baton Rouge is my home, Baton Rouge is your home, Baton Rouge is our home together. There can be no denying that there are real issues of trust in our community. These issues have been evident well before this past week. We have worked on these issues for years, we will continue to work.

The people of Baton Rouge should know that I know that more work needs to be done and I commit to you and the people of Baton Rouge that this work will continue to be done. I'll be glad to take any questions in the time that we have.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now that the DOJ is investigating, what role does the local prosecutor play going forward any ways...

MOORE: Oh yes, it's a really a good question. So DOJ comes in and they investigate. And DOJ would rather not parallel investigations for real simple reasons. You have a limited number of witnesses. And those witnesses have already been interviewed by the police department.

So, DOJ will then go out and interview those witnesses. So if you had two or three other parallel investigations, you'd have three, four, five different witness statements. So, it's better to let DOJ do their work. They're completely independent from nowhere around. They have no relationships as I have this personal relationships. So, it's best for them to do their investigation.

Following their investigation, they will ultimately make a decision whether there is some potential federal criminal violation or civil rights violation that they would seek to pursue. On the other hand, they may say, we don't believe it is a federal violation and Mr. District Attorney or Attorney General, we believe there's possible state violations that could have occurred. And at that point, they will give the investigation results to the D.A. or the Attorney General.

And in speaking with the federal authorities from around the country and personally, it's my belief that knowing that I have the relationship and the recusal issue which we have discussed in my office internally for the last five days that I would not be doing a service to the community and to justice. [12:40:12] So I just waited, just to see if they were to make a referral to me think I'm better off acknowledging and declaring this at this point. So, never be anymore delay depending on whatever comes in the future which I just don't know what's going to happen at this point.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who assigns the district attorney to take over the...

MOORE: So, the way the law is, I will call a motion or file a motion with the court and ask the court to recuse me and to either appoint the attorney general. The attorney general then has the authority to either accept the case himself and handle the case, possibly appoint another district attorney, a different office or I think also has the ability to appoint an independent prosecutor under the statute.

Yes ma'am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell me about your relationship with the family?

MOORE: Just a -- I've been involved in law enforcement business either as an investigator, criminal defense lawyer and D.A. for 42 years. And the bulk of those years, I've known the parents of one of these officers. And those officers have been involved in some high command levels and I have worked with them and they're officers on many different programs, projects, security issues.

So I just felt it was more appropriate for their trust and for justice in this case that that be disclosed. And I think that this is the only and the proper decision to make.

UNIDENTIFED MALE: In reference to the protests this past weekend, do you believe or have any charges been dropped? Do you believe there'll be charge that'll be dropped?

MOORE: Oh, you know, I really have no idea. I had not the chance to read reports as obviously things are moving very quickly here. And I think there are around 200. That's my understanding that the bulk of the arrest, there may be 100 percent would be state charges.

So, I'll wait to see those. They're all be assigned to one section of the court which really clogs up a particular section because that section is on duty. We're going to do as good a job as we can as quickly as we can to try to go through the reports as they come in, to identify first offenders, those who just -- who have stepped over the line, which ones can we resolve very quickly compared to those that are carrying guns, having masks, those throwing things and injuring officers. Different folks that we'll be dealing with.

So it's just going to be a case by case basis. But we're going to try do it as quickly as we can. Judge Bonnie Jackson is on duty, she's done a tremendous job in getting bonds very quickly and setting up that bonds schedule and reviewing the bonds to make sure that these folks who are in there for misdemeanor offenses can be bonded out quickly. So, we're trying to exploit that process now. I'm told as of the last

two hours ago, at that point there were maybe 20 people remaining from the night before. By now, I'm assuming that the vast majority of those -- for those misdemeanor obstruction charges are probably out as well.

BANFIELD: The district attorney in Baton Rouge, Louisiana making an announcement that he is recusing himself from the investigations into the death of Alton Sterling who died at the hands of two police officers during an arrest and a takedown attempt last week.

You've probably heard last week that the Baton Rouge Police Department came out very quickly, I think within 48 hours saying that they were themselves, pulling themselves off of the investigation and turning it over 100 percent, as they said themselves, using the word "100 percent", to the federal authorities, to the Department of Justice.

And now, you're hearing that the district attorney also turning over its investigative procedures to the federal government as well to the Department of Justice. The D.A. Hillar Moore citing of interest a relationship. I believed he said both personal and professional at one point, a relationship with the parents of once of those officers, Officer Salamoni, saying that the trust and transparency is critical as they move forward in this investigation.

So there you have it. The Department of Justice taking on pretty much every aspects of what happened in that Rouge that fateful night. We're going take a quick break and sort of break down what this means. As well as the conversation we were just having, the perception again between the police and those that are policing and those who are being policed as they see the police approach. That's next.

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[12:48:49] BANFIELD: News just breaking a few moments ago about the Baton Rouge situation changing in terms of its investigation. The D.A. there, recusing himself of the investigation, turning it over to the feds. The police have already done that. And that actually brings about some further questions.

I'm joined again by Alexis Johnson who's the executive director of the Perception Institute. And also back with us, CNN Law Enforcement Analyst Cedric Alexander who has written a new book called "The New Guardians: Policing in America's Communities for the 21st century", also worked with the President's Task Forces on policing in 21st Century. Perfect guests for this.

Cedric, I want to go to you first on what we just heard. When the D.A. says that I've got a personal and a professional relationship that I've had with the parents of one of those officer, I get it, 100 percent he's recusing himself. The police themselves in Baton Rouge also did that, saying full transparency, you need to trust us so we're turning this investigation over to the feds.

So, I'm picturing in my mind Cedric, some big blue suited federal folks from Washington coming down to Baton Rouge where there's a character and there's a personality. And will they be able to get to the bottom of what they need to get to the bottom of more so than the local folks could do it?

[12:50:01] CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, let me say this first. You know, part of the recommendations that came out of 21st Task Force report that was initiated by President Obama with one of those exact things, is that during the course of a fatal shooting, one of the recommendation, one of the '89 recommendations that were made is that that if there's a shooting, a fatality in your community, sometimes it's very important that a police department recuse itself from doing that internal investigation so that there is a sense and feeling of some independent outside agency that come in and conduct investigation. With that, it perceives bias.

Now, the same recommendation was also made toward D.A. offices. It sometimes can be a much more difficult lift for them because of the complexity of their office. However, in this particular case where you're talking about a high profile case, all eyes are on Baton Rouge. And the D.A. coming out and saying I have a personal and professional relationship with the family of one of the officers involved, I think was very right, on his part, the right thing to do.

And it's cases like this where the perceptions, since we're talking perception, the perception is out there. Any time police officer is involved in a deadly shooting such as what we have there in Baton Rouge is that somehow, police departments are going to cover up for each other. That is not true. I'll tell you. In many departments, they have done a great job in investigating their own, arresting their own and moving towards whatever legally needs to take place.

However, in the climate that we're in today, because of this perception as so much mistrust, distrust, it becomes very apparent for us if we want to move forward and advance the profession, probably one of the best things to do is let outside entities do those cases, particularly where there's a fatality.

BANFIELD: I see this pros and cons. I have to wrap it up, but one line from you on this. There is that positive as well that the DOJ from a federal, you know, perspective can see the whole country spot, not just one spot.

JOHNSON: Absolutely. And it is about the perception of the national audiences watching all of these different cases over the last few years. And so, when the DOJ comes in, we are able to start police are submitting to being governed, right, in a way that, I think we traditionally don't see. And so we can see the underlying research trend and I think that's what's actually really exciting about this new data coming out. That we can build accountability, we can build new interventions and we can build solutions. And I think that's going to be really critical for this problem.

BANFIELD: Alexis Johnson, thank you so much. It's great to meet you by the way.

JOHNSON: Thank you. BANFIELD: I look forward to further appearances. And Cedric Alexander, as always, I repeat myself all the time telling you how much we love having you on the program. Thank you so much both you, appreciate it.

ALEXANDER: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Coming up, Black Lives Matter has been very, very vocal in what has happened in the last week, in the last year, in the last several years since they were born.

Next, the protester's point of view, what it's like to face police in the streets and getting arrested for standing for your cause, someone who knows, because he has just been arrested and sprung. He's next.

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BANFIELD: All you have to do is look at your Facebook feeds to realize that the intense feelings that are coming out of the two police shootings last week and on that massacre in the police in Dallas are pretty much everywhere. The intensity carried over into the streets in nation-wide protests. At least 312 people were arrested over the weekend, just the weekend, from New York to Chicago to St. Paul, to Baton Rouge.

[12:55:05] DeRay McKesson was one of those people arrested, a Black Lives Matter activists and public administrator, considered among the movement's loudest voices. And he live streamed his arrest for obstruction on Saturday via Periscope. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: City police, you are under arrest. Don't fight me. Don't fight me. Don't fight me.

DERAY MCKESSON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: I'm under arrest y'all.

UNDIDENTIFIED MALE: Back up, I've got some...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The man in the middle of that melee, DeRay McKesson, joins me live now. He was one of the organizers of the protest in Ferguson, Missouri when Michael Brown was shot and killed by a white police officer in August of 2014. And he's live for us not in Baton Rouge.

DeRay, thanks so much for being with me. Just go back to that video and tell me what happened Saturday night upon your arrest.

MCKESSON: Yes, I was following the directions of the officers and I was arrested anyway. I maintained that that was an unlawful arrest. And so many people arrested here in Baton Rouge that night I was arrested and last night. And it's important the D.A. just recused himself here in Baton Rouge. And I'm hopeful that the DOJ will come here and investigate the police department as they continue to unlawfully arrest citizens. BANFIELD: So, Rudy Giuliani, the former mayor of New York City was critical of Black Lives Matter on the CBS's program "Face The Nation" yesterday. He said that Black Lives Matter is in his characterization inherently racist because it doesn't accommodate for white people, or Asian people, et cetera. He said white lives matter, Asian lives matter, Hispanic lives matter that it's anti-American and it's racist. But he didn't stop there. He had this to say as well with his criticism. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI: When, you know, there are 60 shootings in Chicago over the 4th of July and 14 murders, and Black Lives Matter is nonexistent. And then there is one police murder, a very questionable circumstances and we hear from Black Lives Matter, we wonder, do black lives matter or only the very few black lives that are killed by white policemen?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, DeRay, that's one New York City mayor and then another New York City mayor, Bill de Blasio was on CNN this morning saying, look, there may be some negatives to Black Lives Matter but generally speaking, this has changed the national discussion for the better.

I wanted you get to react to those two messages from two New York mayors.

MCKESSON: It is good for the people of New York City and the people of America that Giuliani is no longer in office. His statements are an embarrassment to the American people and a disgrace.

When I think about what we know to be true, we know the policing Americans killed nearly three people every day in 2016 and killed people everyday in 2015 but 18 days in all states. That is wild and we can live in a world where the police don't kill people. And people have been working on issues of community violence for a long time. They continue to do that work.

What Giuliani has done is what so many people do, is that they deflect from the attention on the accountability of police officers. Now, police are the only group of public servants that have incredible power with no oversight and accountability.

It's how they continue to kill and not be held at to any standing. And that's not OK. So Giuliani wants to engage us in this distractive rhetoric that is untrue.

BANFIELD: OK, so I respect that opinion and when you say that Mayor Giuliani's speech is disgraceful, some say that about your past, rhetoric as well and I just want to read a couple of your past tweets from April 3rd of last year. This "Feared for my life language is perhaps the new execution motto of America's largest gang, the police." And then in April also of last year, "The police are killing people. Officer friendly as akin to the myth of the American dream, seductive but a deadly illusion nonetheless." And then May 23rd of last year, "The police are engaged in ethnic cleansing America." That's pretty strong rhetoric coming from you as well. Do you think it's helpful or do you regret any of those words?

MCKESSON: Yes, you know, you think about officer from the I remember being a kid growing up and leaning about officer friendly as somebody who is always there to protect me. And as an adult, what I've seen is officer friendly was not there to protect Tamir, was not there to protect Mike Brown, Alton Sterling, or so many other people, Rekia Boyd. So that is a myth and we want to live in a world where that doesn't have to be mythical but the world we live in right now, that's not just not true.

And the other statements that I made, when we think about the one about a gang or fear for your life, it is clear to me that officers did not fear for their life when Tamir was killed. It is clear to me that Freddie Gray should be alive. Officers did not fear for their life when he left their custody and died. So I stand by those words because I know that they are true.

When I said ethnic cleansing, what we know to be true as well is that black people are disproportionally killed by the police in this country. And we have to be honest about their racial undertone and their racist undertone, the under gird so much of these actions. And we are not afraid to say those things in public. It is the truth behind the protest.

BANFIELD: DeRay, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today, appreciate it.

MCKESSON: Good to be here.

BANFIELD: DeRay McKesson joining us live. And that is all the time I have. Thank you so much for being with us on LEGAL VIEW. Please stay tuned, "WOLF" starts right now.