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Adviser: Trump Taking Next 24 Hours to Make VP Decision; Polls: Clinton and Trump Neck-and-Neck in Swing States; New Details in Police Shooting Case; New Details in Minnesota Police Shooting Case; Trump on Ginsburg: "Her Mind Is Shot -- Resign!"; Police: Serial Sniper on the Loose, Blamed for Seven Deaths. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired July 13, 2016 - 19:00   ET


[19:00:08] ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next, the breaking news, the final frenzy Donald Trump holding last-minute VP interviews and tryouts. He says tonight in his mind it's down to two finalists. Will he go with his head or with his gut?

Plus, the case of Philando Castile whose death was streamed live on Facebook, what happened before the video started and after it stopped? Tonight, new details and multiple people shot to death in the same neighborhood all at random late at night. This is the work of a serial killer?

Let's go OUTFRONT.

Good evening. I'm Erin Burnett. OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news, it is down to the wire. The final hours and Donald Trump in a frenzy last-minute round of talks to pick his V.P. candidate. A senior Trump adviser saying the GOP presumptive nominee has not made his choice yet, he will decide though in the next 24 hours. The day began with breakfast that Indiana Governor Mike Pence's home, Trump's daughter Ivanka and her husband sat down with Pence and his wife. Trump later giving the meeting a two thumbs up.

Then, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich in Indiana meeting with Trump flying on a plane provided by FOX News host Sean Hannity in a rather strange turn of events coming one day after Gingrich and FOX News ended his paid consultancy at FOX. And it was Gingrich who called Trump to request the meeting. His last chance to campaign for the job. Gingrich later seen leaving Trump's Indianapolis hotel in the same motorcade as Trump's children.

And then there's New Jersey Governor Chris Christie. Christie spoke with Trump by phone today. The conversation said to include the vice presidency. Speaking to FOX News, Trump praised the New Jersey governor.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I'll tell you. Chris Christie is somebody I've liked a long time. He's a total professional. He's a good guy, by the way. A lot of people don't understand that, but I'm narrowing it down. I mean, I'm at three potentially four, but in my own mind I probably am thinking about two. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Pretty interesting, though, that decision truly going to be made in his own mind. That is one of the reasons it isn't leaking out because no one else knows.

Sunlen Serfaty is OUTFRONT tonight in Indianapolis which is the center of all the activity today. Sunlen, by all accounts, Donald Trump so very much undecided. You heard him there. There's three or four but in my own head there's two. He's having trouble deciding.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Erin. He certainly does seem at this point still very torn and he is actively deliberating and we are told that no decision has been made. Sources telling CNN, though, that his gut is telling him Chris Christie, but there are many powerful and influential voices from his campaign and from his family who are also pushing for Newt Gingrich and Governor Mike Pence. But certainly the flurry of activity and meetings that took place here in this Indianapolis hotel underscoring how Trump is still very much grappling with his final pick.


SERFATY (voice-over): Donald Trump is nearing a final decision and possibly one of the most important of his campaign, his choice of a running mate.

TRUMP: I'm narrowing it down. I mean, I'm at three, potentially four, but in my own mind I probably am thinking about two.

SERFATY: The presumptive Republican nominee and his family having a private breakfast with Indiana Governor Mike Pence at the governor's mansion in Indianapolis.

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: It was just very warm and just one family meeting with another and we were honored to have not only Mr. Trump, but a number of his children.

SERFATY: A Trump campaign source tells CNN that Trump and Pence and their families are getting along fabulously during the Indiana trip.

Trump's Hoosier state visit included a rally Tuesday night with Pence getting a chance to audition for the role.

PENCE: To paraphrase the director of the FBI, I think it would be extremely careless to elect Hillary Clinton as the next president of the United States. But Trump is not tipping his hand.

TRUMP: I don't know whether he's going to be your governor or your vice president. Who the hell knows?

SERFATY: With a final decision looming, Trump holding a flurry of meetings with other VP contenders today in Indianapolis, including former House Speaker Newt Gingrich who has support among some Trump family members. NEWT GINGRICH (R), FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: Just a little bit like "The

Apprentice." You find out sooner or later who the last one standing is.

SERFATY: Trump also speaking by phone with Chris Christie who is in Washington to participate in transition meetings. The two also have a face to face meeting Tuesday. Sources tell CNN that Christie remains a finalist with Trump looking for a fighter, a role the New Jersey governor has shown he can play.

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: A Democratic nominee for president put her own political convenience ahead of the safety and the security of the American people.

SERFATY: Trump also taking a meeting with trusted adviser Jeff Sessions. The Alabama Senator flying from Washington, D.C. to Indiana this morning to help the billionaire through the decision process. Not on Trump's list of meetings today. Retired Lieutenant General Michael Flynn who is traveling to Cleveland tonight for a speech Thursday. Flynn hasn't spoken with Trump recently, but did talk with Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort in recent days.


[19:05:25] SERFATY: And Trump left this hotel in Indianapolis about two hours ago, and we are told he is now en route to California for a fund-raising swing there. It is expected that he will make up his mind over the next 24 hours and then a formal announcement is being planned potentially for Friday, but we are now told, Erin, that Saturday's announcement is also on the table -- Erin.

BURNETT: Somebody who is having a lot of trouble deciding. At some point, bite the bullet, Donald Trump. Okay. Thank you very much, Sunlen.

And OUTFRONT now, former Reagan White House Political Director Jeffrey Lord, a Donald Trump supporter. Executive chairman of the New York State Democratic Party Basil Smikle, Hillary Clinton supporter. And former adviser to four presidents, Reagan, Clinton on that list David Gergen. And the former communications director for Senator, Ted Cruz, Amanda Carpenter.

OK. So, let me start with you, David. Donald Trump, look, it was supposed to be tomorrow and then it's Friday, now maybe it's Saturday it's clearly struggling. Today he met with Mike Pence, Newt Gingrich talked on the phone with Chris Christie. Should he be this torn this late in the game?

DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: Well, it is a circus, isn't it, but I think he's going to do much for effect as anything else. You know, he likes to dramatize things and he's outfoxed a lot of us and how successful he's been at that, but I think there are two things that are really striking that are different. One is having to audition before his children. We've never had a vice president to my knowledge who has had to pass the children test before getting to a company and the candidate to the White House. The other thing that I think is very striking is who is not on the

list. There are no women in the list. There are no minorities on the list. And none of the rising stars in the Republican Party and even as we focus on these three, that's not -- that's not the perfect picture for Donald Trump. These are not the perfect finalists for him.

BURNETT: Amanda, you know, to the point that David made about the circus of this, the media performance, right? Trump has played this very well and no one knows his choice if he even does. Right? Intrigue, suspense, you got it. Everybody is talking about it. So, the question is, is he playing this perfectly or does he really not know who to choose? And this is indecision and that's a sign of weakness?

AMANDA CARPENTER, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR SEN. TED CRUZ: What do we know about Donald Trump? We know that he plays very close attention to the media and the polls. I think he's been floating people out there, to see who generates excitement. He has to go to this convention and gain unity among the party. So, he's shown us a general, he's showing us a social conservative. He is showing us an old hand and Newt Gingrich. He's trying to see what will work. And here's the thing, none of it is going to work because Donald Trump's brand is too big, it's too well-defined.

There is nobody that is going to heal this ticket completely. So, if you look among the conservative press, people are generally saying, listen, Mike Pence isn't going to win over the Never Trumpers and also he doesn't add like a lot of credibility to the ticket. People like him, but they don't think he adds anything, neither does Chris Christie. So, go ahead and pick Newt Gingrich even though Newt Gingrich has damaged goods in some regards. So is Donald Trump. You guys both have the same kind of baggage. So, pick someone who could provide, use some political insight who could stand up when needed and also spin it just as well as you can.

BURNETT: OK. You refer to Newt Gingrich as damaged goods. For those out there who are confused as to why she would say that, Jeffrey Lord, here is some of what Newt Gingrich has said about Donald Trump during this campaign. OK? Here we go.


GINGRICH: There are points when your candidate can be so delusional that you need to get them psychiatric help. I think that would be one of them.

Beating up Ted Cruz doesn't make America great, and I think it actually shrinks Donald Trump.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you comfortable with a potential president attacking a federal judge for his heritage?

GINGRICH: No. This is one of the worst mistakes Trump has made.

And Trump's job is frankly to quit screwing up, get the election on the three or four big issues and all of them down to a single concept. Enough.



BURNETT: How does Donald Trump pick Newt Gingrich?

JEFFREY LORD, DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER: First of all, as we all know upon reflection, people who get on a ticket who have said things critical of the number one candidate are on tickets all of the time.


LORD: Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama being wishy washy with secretary of state, certainly.


LORD: And you go through American history and it's littered with people. I mean, two days before LBK was picked on that ticket --

BURNETT: This is Donald Trump and this is a guy who remembers every slight from kindergarten.

LORD: Yes. I understand that. But he wants to win. He wants to win. Never underestimate his competitive nature here.


LORD: He is going to pick the person who he thinks is going to help him do that and the rest of this will just vanish in the thin air here and will be on to the next controversy.

[19:10:08] BURNETT: So, again, what's the biggest threat for Hillary Clinton, you have got Newt Gingrich. This is the guy who wanted to lead that effort to impeach Bill Clinton over the Monica Lewinsky scandal. This is not a guy they want to see on the ticket.

BASIL SMIKLE, HILLARY CLINTON SUPPORTER: You know, what's interesting to me is that aside from Chris Christie's probably more moderate, but he's more moderate and he's damaged in the sense that he hugged Obama. So, conservatives didn't like it and he took a lot of flak for that. And to me, vice presidential candidates are supposed to be complimentary and the two others, Newt Gingrich and Mike Pence are contradictory in my mind because they are socially very conservative, and I think they are insiders in a way that Donald Trump has run against Republican and insider orthodox. He's ran outside of that. But these two seem to fit that mold. I don't know if that grows his base at all.

BURNETT: So you think Christie fits better?

SMIKLE: I think Christie fits a little better and he's from the northeast side or north that works, you know, in the south and the west. BURNETT: And of course they always say, David Gergen, that the VP

doesn't really do anything in terms of who votes for you, maybe it does affect who votes against you. I mean, you know, what do you think, David? When you look at those choices, obviously there could always be a surprise, but of those three, who is the best fit for Donald Trump?

GERGEN: Boy, that's really, really hard. I think Amanda has the right point when she said that, you know, Trump's brand is so big and, you know, the truth is whoever is chosen is going to be a secondary figure and will be second banana and it is not going to be sort of a co-partnership of the kind you saw when Clinton and Gore got on a bus way back in 1992 and paraded around the country very effectively.

So I have a really, really hard time picking among these three. I thought Pence was the safe choice, but I've increasingly come to believe that he's maybe too safe for what Trump needs. I do think he needs a fighter because this is going to be a very, very mean campaign.

BURNETT: And Amanda, to the point you made, I mean, here is what Mike Pence said, I mean, this is a guy, OK, Mike Pence here, safe as he may be who did not even vote for Donald Trump. It's one thing to come out against him and he blatantly say, he didn't vote for him, here he is.


PENCE: I'm not against anybody but I will be voting for Ted Cruz. I see Ted Cruz as a principled conservative who has dedicated his career to advocating the Reagan agenda.


BURNETT: It was a lukewarm endorsement and was it a problem for Mike Pence?

CARPENTER: No. I mean, I do think this is the fact that Mike Pence is a very cautious politician. He's not a risk taker. That was a very weak endorsement because I believe Pence is trying to play both sides of that because he knew he is in tough reelect and wanted to be able to get on board with whoever would win the nomination. And look at what he's saying, this is why I don't think he makes the cut. His tryout was not very good.

He called Trump Reagan, oh, well, he called Cruz Reagan and he said Hillary Clinton would be, you know, an extremely careless choice. Like that is not an attack, that is so vanilla compared to the attacks that should be waged on Hillary Clinton in this environment and that's the best thing who he's come up with? I cannot think that Donald Trump was impressed by that.

LORD: Amanda is right. I mean, I confess I'm an out and out Newt fan here. And I think he would be just tremendous, but Amanda is absolutely right. You can't have somebody on this ticket who's going to be too cautious and well maybe this and well, maybe that. You need somebody who is going to go out there after the Democrats and really go at it and that would be Newt.

BURNETT: Cautious is not a word to describe either Newt Gingrich or Chris Christie.

All right. All of you staying with me. We are awaiting by the way for the President who is just meeting with the Attorney General and others, talking about Black Lives Matter and Race in America. A very crucial meeting. We're going to be getting his readout from that in just a moment. The President the United States speaking.

Plus, a new poll showing the race for the White House and a dead heat, several crucial swing states coming out with new numbers. We have them for you.

Plus, Philando Castile's violent death caught on tape, now we are learning more about when the camera was not rolling and those crucial moments before and after.

And Trump firing back at Ruth Bader Ginsburg. The fight you just have to see to believe. He says her mind is shot. Who is crossing the line?


[19:17:05] BURNETT: Tonight, a dead heat, new poll showing Clinton and Trump statistically tied in some crucial states. A new Wall Street Journal, NBC News/Marist poll showing anybody can win Ohio and Iowa. As you see, that is truly a dead heat well within the statistical margin of error. A Quinnipiac poll showing Trump leading by three points in Florida also within the margin of error and this comes as the race is getting even nastier. Here's Hillary Clinton today.


HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: His campaign is as divisive as any we have seen in our lifetimes. It is built on stoking mistrust and pitting American against American.


BURNETT: John King is our chief national correspondent, host of "INSIDE POLITICS" OUTFRONT now. And John, these crucial states across the country, poll by poll, how close is this race right now?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Incredibly close, Erin. I consider the timing. The conventions are about to begin. Donald Trump's first and then Hillary Clinton. Right? One hundred and seventeen days from now is the presidential election, let's just put up some graphics to show you through the states. If you're Hillary Clinton today, you've seen battleground state polls in Colorado, in Virginia and Wisconsin and you're encouraged by those numbers. But remember, Obama won of all those states.

But Clinton leads in those states that leads aren't giant, but she leads. But look at these states, battlegrounds that are very close. Iowa, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida. If Donald Trump can turn just a couple of those states, he's in play here. A lot of people have thought Erin, for the last month, the conversation had been because of his numbers with Latinos, because of his numbers with African- Americans, because of his numbers with women, Donald Trump is not competitive. Guess what? He is about to start his convention and he is more than competitive.

BURNETT: I mean, as you pointed out, not a storyline that you've been hearing from the Democrats, right? That you keep trying to say, oh, no, no, no, they've got this one in the bag. All right. You take these crucial states, right? Put it into the bigger picture though, overall, how close is it do you think right now?

KING: So, both campaigns operate this campaign by looking at the last campaign. So, Barack Obama beat Mitt Romney by a pretty convincing margin in the Electoral College. Right? It was 232 to 206 and if you put that map up and you take a look at those states, it's a blowout in the Electoral College right there. Right? Well, the big three I just talked about that are very close right now, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida, I'm not saying it would be easy for Donald Trump. But if nothing else changed and Donald Trump could flip Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida, Donald Trump is the next president of the United States, he would win with 273 Electoral Votes to 265.

This is where the Trump strategy starts. Hold Florida, try to get it to be Republican and then look for Pennsylvania and Ohio and then look at other rust belt states if they need another option. But Erin, it's not easy. It's a huge lift, but a lot of people who think the electoral map favors the Democrats, it does it, it leans Secretary Clinton's why, but these poll numbers tell we are incredibly in a close race and Trump has a clear path.

BURNETT: And pretty amazing too when you say leans. All right. Jeff Lord, Basil Smikle back with me. So, Basil, you just heard John King, okay? He is saying, Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania. He turns those three, he can win the whole thing.

SMIKLE: I don't know if that's much the case. But this race was going to be close. I don't really believe the polls this early out. I think both candidates get a bump after their respective conventions.


SMIKLE: And then after the first debate certainly the second one, I think you will actually start to see the polls more reflective of what's going on. But in addition to those states, I'll talk about a couple of other. Let's talk about North Carolina which I think Democrats can win. President Obama won it and then candidate Obama won it in 2008.


SMIKLE: So, I think that's one to look at. Indiana also because you have Evan Bayh who has now decided to run for the Senate, it's Mike Pence's home state but Evan Bayh says, he's running for the Senate and it's a very Republican state and only voted Republican twice since 1940 and Barack Obama won it in 2008. I think Wisconsin is very good for us. And Pennsylvania, I think is going to be a Democratic state, as well.

BURNETT: All right. So, let's start about a Quinnipiac poll. I want to get both of your take on this. But Jeff, let me start with you.

This was, just looking at independence alone which by the way, when you think about the role of independence in this poll, it may make you think about how important these V.P. choices may be, are you playing to your base or are you playing to the center which is the crucial question? In the latest poll, Donald Trump ahead of Hillary Clinton, 43 to 30 percent among independence. OK. That's huge.

LORD: Yes.

BURNETT: A month ago she was ahead, 44 to 35. That's an incredible swing. Why do you think it happened, Jeff?

LORD: I'll tell you exactly why. I think with all due respect to Basil who will disagree with me immediately, I think she's a weak candidate. And if she were -- if she were really a strong candidate Donald Trump with all of these kind of liabilities that John was just talking about a second ago would be nowhere close to her, and the very fact that you are reading these kinds of statistics, we talk about Pennsylvania, for example, and I'm a Pennsylvanian and it came up through the Pennsylvanian political system. Donald Trump is the only candidate of either party to the best of my knowledge running for anything in a competitive primary in Pennsylvania who won all 67 counties. I mean, that accounts for a lot of passionate folks, the intensity factor, if you will.

BURNETT: Basil, what accounts, though, to you for that swinging poll in Florida. The early poll could be wrong, but it's a dramatic swing.

[19:22:06] SMIKLE: Yes. It's an early poll and, you know, I don't know, I mean, the fact that it's a level point -- it's a bit odd to me, but obviously, I disagree. I'll disagree with these viewpoints. Number one, she got more votes than anyone else running. Three million plus votes. So, there is enthusiasm for her so that's why we have these questions about the so-called enthusiasm gap. Number one, number two, now that she has the Sanders endorsement which is not reflective in those polls. I think you also add on the Obama FACTOR. You now have in my mind a very similar coalition that elected Obama in 2008 working for her now in 2016, and that gives me -- gives Democrats I think a lot --

LORD: The intensity for Obama as opposed to Hillary. That was pretty --

BURNETT: And here's another issue, Basil, when you look at, you know, fact checkers. Right? They say Donald Trump is the worst record you could possibly get in terms of accuracy of the statements on the campaign trail. Nonetheless, in the three states of Quinnipiac with polling today, Clinton is getting crushed in the issue of being honest and trustworthy. And a lot of this seems to have to do with the e-mail scandal. Fifty

six percent of responds in the recent poll, disapprove of the decision not to charge her. This comes in light of the FBI director admitting that someone would be fire for doing what she did. Basically, people have to accept you could be fired for doing what you did, but now you could be president of the United States.

SMIKLE: Yes. Listen, we've been hearing about e-mails for over a year now and so I think a lot of that is built into how people feel about her, but when people are polled about policy issues that she has promoted and talked about, just even a couple of weeks ago, her position on the aftermath of the terror attacks, when I think voters look at her --


SMIKLE: They will certainly choose her over Donald Trump. She polls tremendously in those areas. So, wherever you believe the President of the United States should have -- should be conversant on certain policy issues, I think she out-polls everyone.

BURNETT: Final word. Quickly.

LORD: There's a difference between a fact checker saying that so and so, Donald Trump has been inaccurate or not, said something truthful and the director of the FBI standing there and saying some version of the same thing. That's a big difference, and I think that makes an impact.

BURNETT: All right. Thanks very much to both.

And next, the death of Philando Castile captured live on Facebook. But now, we are learning about what happened before it started rolling and after. And seven murders in Phoenix. One of them only 12 years old. Is there a serial killer stalking right now?


[19:28:17] BURNETT: New details tonight about the moments before and after the graphic and disturbing video of Philando Castile's shooting death by police in Falcon Heights, Minnesota.


DIAMOND REYNOLDS, GIRLFRIEND OF PHILANDO CASTILE: Oh, my God, please don't tell me he's dead. (Bleep). Please don't tell me my boyfriend just went like that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep your hands where they are, please.

REYNOLDS: Yes, I will, sir. I'll keep my hands where they are.


BURNETT: Castile's girlfriend streamed this video on Facebook. It was moments after Castile was shot. And new details are emerging now about the moments before and after that video.


BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A week after the shooting death of 32-year-old Philando Castile, new details are emerging about what happened before and after the horrific scene unfolded live on the internet.

REYNOLDS: Oh, my God, please don't tell me he's dead.

GINGRAS: It was 9:05 at night when two officers with the same Anthony Police Department pulled over an olds mobile in Falcon Heights, Minnesota. Inside that car Castile, his fiancee Diamond Reynolds and her four-year-old daughter.

REYNOLDS: The police officer stopped us for a busted taillight that was not busted!

GINGRAS: But the attorney for Officer Jeronimo Yanez says he stopped Castile because he fit the description of an armed robbery suspect. In fact, just days prior, this crime alert was sent to area police informing them of that robbery. The robbery happened a mile from where Castile was stopped which according to his attorney gave Officer Yanez, quote, "a reasonable suspicion to take further investigative steps." What happened next is unclear, but we now know Castile had been pulled over by police at least 52 times since 2002 and obtained a conceal carry permit in 2015, a point Diamond Reynolds makes just seconds after Castile is shot while she live streams the scene on Facebook.

[19:30:08] REYNOLDS: He's licensed to carry and he was trying to get out his I.D. and his wallet out of his pocket and he let the officer know that he was -- he had a firearm and he was reaching for his wallet and the officer just shot him in his arm.

GINGRAS: But Officer Yanez says he warned him.

POLICE OFFICER: I told him not to reach for it! I told him to get his hand out.

GINGRAS: Officer Yanez's attorney says Castile did not follow instructions during the stop saying, quote, "There was a gun produced by Mr. Castile, he would not comply with the commands of Mr. Yanez."

As authorities investigate, there are also new questions about what happened after Reynolds stopped recording.

UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: It's okay. I'm right here with you.

GINGRAS: Authorities then brought Reynolds to the police station.

REYNOLDS: They took me off the scene. I was not allowed to talk to anybody, and up until 5:00 this morning when they dropped me off on my doorstep.

GINGRAS: But in an interview with CNN's Rosa Flores, Roosevelt's police chief defends his responding officer's actions.

ROOSEVELT POLICE CHIEF: She wasn't held all night. She was held for just about two hours.

GINGRAS: Authorities say Reynolds was dropped off at her home at 1:00 in the morning.


GINGRAS: And still, so many questions remain about what exactly happened in that one minute, just 60 seconds from the time authorities say they made that traffic stop to when Reynolds started streaming live on Facebook. Some of that may be clear when we see that dashcam video which is now part of that criminal investigation which we're hearing will take months to complete -- Erin.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Brynn, thank you very much.

And crucial because we don't have the dashcam video. At this point, there is a lot of what someone alleges, but some crucial new pieces of information.

Harry Houck is a retired NYPD detective, and Paul Martin, criminal defense attorney, who has represented police officers in shooting cases. Thanks to both.

Harry, let me start with you. We have this video which we all have to admit is disturbing and upsetting.


BURNETT: And a death that should not have happened.

The question, though, of course, is motive and whether there was racial bias. OK? The officer's defense is there was an armed robbery about a mile away from where this tragedy happened. He said he thought Castile fit the description of the robber and that would have happened before the tape started rolling, before anything any of us have seen.

Is that enough to explain what happened?

HOUCK: Well, I'll explain the stop. Basically when a police officer has reason to believe that there's a suspect in the vehicle who fits the description of an armed robbery suspect, he does have reason to stop the vehicle. Now, what happened was when that police officer approached that vehicle -- now, I'm telling through what's going through my head as a police officer when I stop a robbery suspect.

Going up to the vehicle and he states that he's got a gun, and that he's got a permit for that gun. Now, remember, he's just telling me that. I don't know if he's really got a permit to carry that weapon or not.

Now, as a police officer, if you tell me that you've got a permit to carry a weapon and I'm supposed to disarm you. You're not supposed to recover the weapon.

So, the officer said that he asked him for his identification, then the officer had said in the video, "I told him not to go for the gun. I told him not to reach," all right?

Now if that police officer thinks at that time, all right --

BURNETT: You say give me your I.D., but you've got to reach then.

HOUCK: But you don't know which one was first and which one was second. We don't know, OK?


HOUCK: So if he says let me see your I.D., and he's going to reach and the police officer is not going to shoot him. Once he tells the officer he's got a gun, the officer has got to tell him, "Keep your hands where I can see 'em," and if I tell you several times to do that, and you start moving, the officer's got to protect himself.

BURNETT: OK, Paul, does --


HOUCK: I didn't say.

MARTIN: All right? What we do know is this, even assuming that the officer stopped him because he thought he was a robbery suspect, what was the description? I can tell you what the description was? Male black between the ages of 25 and 35. Hair, corn rows.

HOUCK: You don't know, just like I don't know.

MARTIN: What was the description?

HOUCK: Right.

MARTIN: The only thing that we do know is this man was stopped, how many times? Fifty-two times.

BURNETT: Fifty-two times.

MARTIN: Doesn't that sound somewhat unusual? Here we are also in a state --


MARTIN: Excuse me, sir. Here we are in a state where he's allowed to carry a weapon. He has a permit. You're assuming what the officer said is accurate. I may assume what the woman said was accurate, that he was asked to reach for his wallet, he complied and when he complied, he was shot.

BURNETT: If he really is the armed robbery suspect or has mal-intent toward the police officer and let's just say if that's the case and your gun is concealed, why would you say you had it? The minute you said you had it, shouldn't the police officer --


HOUCK: First of all, you never know what anybody will tell you out on the street. You have to protection yourself as a police officer.

[19:35:01] He says he has a gun.

MARTIN: He told he has a gun.

HOUCK: Yes, I know he tells him that. But you're seeing the video, where the officer's got the gun after he shot. And he says, I told him not to reach for it, I told him not to reach for it, all right? That's what the officer says and it's in the heat of the moment and after he just shot somebody.

I don't think the officer's lying there. We're hearing it from his mouth. Now, she -- her credibility is now shot, the fact that she said she stayed at the police station for --

BURNETT: She said six hours, until 5:00 in the morning, the police say it was two hours.

HOUCK: Yes, exactly. So, her credibility is shot. That goes to her credibility.

She also said the reason why they were stopped -- sorry, Paul, but the reason why they were stop is because there was a broken taillight.

MARTIN: Because that's what they were told. That's what she was told.

BURNETT: Does this ruin her credibility that she said it was six hours when it was two?

MARTIN: No, it doesn't hurt her credibility.

That same reasoning goes for a woman who sits there and sees her loved one get a bullet put in him and she sees her loved one dying in front of her, what was her basis to lie at that point? She's there videoing exactly what transpired and she says you told him to reach for it.

BURNETT: She's so upset, Harry, she doesn't even keep track of time. She's distraught.

HOUCK: The problem is we don't know. She's so distraught, she was age to videotape the whole thing.

MARTIN: We live in a Facebook world. Everybody is videotaping everything.

HOUCK: She is so distraught, you know, she had the forethought to go and videotape the whole thing and make the comment while it was going on.

Listen, I'm not saying what this police officer did right or what he did was wrong. We still need to know the facts in this case, and these are -- they're getting a little piece at a time here.

BURNETT: So, Paul, final question to you, the body cam video and say it has the whole beginning that he got what he asked for and how he asked for and when he asked for it. Is there any scenario that would make you change your mind and say it was an understandable event?

MARTIN: The officer has to believe -- these are subjective tests.


MARTIN: The officer has to believe that his life is in danger, but for him actually seeing this individual go to grab for something, he's going to have a problem. He's going to have a problem saying, how could I believe that he -- my life was in danger when he went for his wallet? That's a problem.

HOUCK: That I agree with.

BURNETT: Thanks to both. And obviously, that's going to be crucial and as Brynn said it will be quite some time.

Tonight, our special CNN town hall event, "Black, White & Blue: America 2016", that is live tonight at 10:00 with Don.

And next, multiple people shot to death in a Phoenix neighborhood. Tonight, police say they're looking for a serial killer.

And Donald Trump now firing back after the Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg attacked him and he is calling for her to resign and questioning her mental health.


[19:41:35] BURNETT: Tonight, Donald Trump tearing into Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, questioning the justice's mental capacity, tweeting, "Justice Ginsburg of the U.S. Supreme Court has embarrassed all by making very dumb political statements about me. Her mind is shot -- resign." Exclamation point.

Now, Ginsburg did start this, OK? She told CNN, quoting her, "He's a faker. He has no consistency about him. He says whatever comes into his head at the moment. He really has an ego."

OUTFRONT tonight, Hillary Clinton supporter Sally Kohn. David Gergen is back with me.

So, let me start with you, David, Justice Ginsburg hit first, OK? She did hit first, weighing in on a candidate on a personal level as a Supreme Court justice of the United States. Appropriate?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: No. If you go back to the beginning of the republic, Erin, justices, they did frequently take aside in politics and sometimes very roughly so. But the tradition in modern jurisprudence has been that you don't, the judge stays on the sidelines. The judge stays on the sideline. In fact, the Federal Code or the Code of Ethics for federal judges at the circuit court level at the federal level and the district court level specifically tells you that a judge may not either endorse or oppose a political candidate or office, and she did so not just once, but repeatedly. So, I admire Justice Ginsburg. I think she is one of the most outstanding women and jurists in this country.

At the same time on this issue, I think she's made a mistake.

BURNETT: I mean, Sally, as he points out, history is one thing, but right now, this is not what you're supposed to do.

SALLY KOHN, HILLARY CLINTON SUPPORTER: Well, I mean, you are also not supposed to, you know, sit for 119 days which is how long the Republicans and the Senate haven't even had a vote to fill the vacancy on the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court cannot do its job. Justice Ginsburg is understandably frustrated and the Republicans won't even have a vote for 119 days.


KOHN: And meanwhile --

BURNETT: This is personal.

KOHN: But there's the thing, and meanwhile, you have Donald Trump, who has said -- I mean, in the grand history of presidential candidates who have gone out and attacked and a federal judge saying he cannot do his job because of his ethnicity. So, I appreciate it to some extent, but it feels to me -- that Trump in particular, Republicans and Trump in particular have gone so beyond the pale that, you know, if we're going to start talking outrageous and inappropriate. Let's start there.


GERGEN: With all due respect, I think the red herring she just introduced and that is whether Trump went after the judge which he obviously did, and we've gone over that and knocked him around numerous times for that.


GERGEN: And whether they've been sitting on their hands in the Republican Congress, which they certainly have been and wrongly so in my judgment. But having said that those are red herrings it was the simple question, did she do the right thing or the wrong thing? And I think it was inappropriate.

I would go on to say that I think what Trump did was totally overplay his plan, that he so often does, and by eventually saying --

BURNETT: Her mind is shot.

GERGEN: -- she's gone bonkers. Yes, her mind is shot. That's an extraordinarily insulting thing to say about the Supreme Court judge. BURNETT: It is.

KOHN: And inappropriate for a presidential candidate.

BURNETT: But, Sally, let's play this out, though. Let's just say you need a recount in some situation, or let's say Donald Trump is president of the United States and there are cases which involve the administration which go before the Supreme Court, which there would be. Wouldn't she have to recuse herself? How could she sit on those? She said she personally despises the man.

KOHN: Listen, let's make two points here. One, when Justice Scalia got to vote in Bush v. Gore he did not recuse himself despite the fact that he had been friends with Cheney since their service together in politics, when Sandra Day O'Connor did not recuse herself despite the fact that she in private conversation, although let's be honest, we've had more private conversations back in 2000.


KOHN: Now, we seem to do everything on the Internet, but private conversations she made clear who she wanted to vote for.

And David points out, the history of American politics is littered with relationships between presidents and the Supreme Court justices.


KOHN: By the way, Scalia didn't recuse himself after he'd gone on a hunting trip with Cheney is he recused himself with Cheney and government businesses.

So, I get it. I understand. And the other point I'll make is people are right to be frustrated at the level of partisanship and that it is now infecting the Supreme Court. But again, that's nothing new and it was already happening and they won't even vote to fill the slot.

BURNETT: David, does she have a case here or does she have to step down?

GERGEN: No, I don't think she will have to step down. I think there are may be cases when she should recuse herself in the future. If we have another Bush v. Gore, God help us, I think she should consider recusal.

But let me go to the more fundamental point, and that is that we have seen an erosion of public trust in all sort of institutions now, and it's one reason our society is not working as well. the Supreme Court was once held in enormous esteem by the American people and has descended into politics and become a political punching bag, people have less and less respect for its authority. And on many issues, the court speaks with moral authority. If it loses that, we lose something very precious in our society.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you both, very much. I think we all can agree with that on one level. GERGEN: Thank you.

KOHN: And the moral authority, let's start with it in the White House. I don't know.

BURNETT: All right. OUTFRONT next:" seven people shot and killed, police are searching for a serial in Arizona. We've got that story.

And Jeanne Moos on Trump's V.P. audition. The winner may be whoever nails this famous line.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: We will make America great again. We will make it better than ever before.



[19:50:54] BURNETT: Breaking news. Police say a serial sniper is on the loose tonight. At this hour, the suspect or suspects being blamed for at least seven deaths in a series of shootings in Arizona, only two other victims have been lucky enough to survive.

Brian Todd is OUTFRONT.


BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Twelve-year-old Malia Ellis shot and killed along with her mother and a friend as they listened to music inside their car. Their murders, the latest in a series of shootings in the Phoenix area which police are tonight calling the work of a serial killer.

Malia's grandfather says the shooter was indiscriminate.

DOSSIE ELLIS SR., FATHER AND GRANDFATHER OF SHOOTING VICTIMS: didn't care if they were little babies in the car. They just wanted to shoot somebody.

TODD: Tonight, Phoenix police tell CNN they believe the same man has killed seven people and wounded two others since March. Police release this composite sketch. The suspect believed to be a white or Hispanic man in his 20s. He may have an accomplice.

SGT. JONATHAN HOWARD, PHOENIX POLICE DEPARTMENT: We have no prior known contact between our victims and our suspects.

TODD: But police tell CNN they do know part of the killer's M.O. All the shootings have been at night, targeting people walking or in vehicles seemingly at random. Police say the killer arrives in a vehicle, a sedan, gets out of the car and opens fire and quickly departs in the vehicle.

MARY ELLEN O'TOOLE, FORMER FBI PROFILER: He's hunting people that he knows that he can have access to, that they are vulnerable and that they are accessible. Those are two keys and that they have no idea that this individual is behind them or in front of him. So, he's looking for the best targets.

TODD: Another key part of the pattern. The target area and most victims have been shot in the western part of Phoenix, a cluster of them in a neighborhood called Murrayville.

(on camera): What does that tell you?

ART RODERICK, FORMER ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, U.S. MARSHALS: That tells me the individual committing these crimes knows this area very well. You've got two major thoroughfares that he can come in to and get off on.

TODD (voice-over): Two killings have been outside those neighborhoods. In total, they've occurred in over 50 square miles of the Phoenix area. Phoenix police tell us the same weapon was likely used in each shooting, a semiautomatic handgun.

As the manhunt intensifies tonight, experts say the killer could be watching the media coverage and may become more cautious or careless as a result.

O'TOOLE: These individuals tend to be very arrogant and grandiose individuals because now they're holding west Phoenix kind of hostage. People are very frightened. That for the offender is a rush, and that in and of itself can cause that person to take more risks and therefore, possibly make more mistakes.


TODD: Experts say law enforcement will use every resource possible to try to catch the killer or killers. They'll use surveillance footage, automatic license plate readers which scan plates and then feed that information into databases and they'll use tips from the public. There's now a $30,000 reward leading to the killer's capture and the FBI and the U.S. Marshals have now joined the manhunt -- Erin.

BURNETT: All right. Brian, thank you very much.

And next, Jeanne Moos with what she says is the secret for winning the V.P. nod from Donald Trump.


[19:57:29] BURNETT: The race to be Donald Trump's vice presidential pick is played out "Apprentice" style. So, who's hired?

Here's Jeanne Moos.


JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Since Donald Trump can't legally pick the guy in the mirror for V.P., he may have to settle for one of these three. So why not audition all three. Let's start with how confident they sound saying this.

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: The next president of the United States, Donald Trump!

NEWT GINGRICH (R), FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: The next president of the United States, Donald Trump!

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: The next president of the United States of America, Donald J. Trump!

MOOS: Hmm, pretty similar. Jimmy Fallon has already predicted how the Donald will introduce his V.P.

JIMMY FALLON, COMEDIAN: This next person will be a footnote in history, at best.

MOOS: And which of the potential footnotes got the warmest greeting from the Donald?

Indiana Governor Mike Pence got a handshake and a brief touch on the arm and a funny face accompanied by pointing.

Newt Gingrich likewise got a handshake, and an arm around the back and a pat on the shoulder.

But Chris Christie -- got a handshake and a hug -- advantage, Christie.

Still, the acid test is the ability to deliver the Donald's core message.

TRUMP: We are going to make America great again.

MOOS: Though even the Donald's delivery isn't great when he's tethered to teleprompter.

TRUMP: And we're going to make America great again.

MOOS: So, how do the would-be V.P.s do when they --

PENCE: To borrow a phrase, make America great again.

MOOS: Mike Pence.

PENCE: And we can make America great again.

MOOS: Newt Gingrich.

GINGRICH: To make America great again, I'm going to be for Donald Trump.

MOOS: Chris Christie.

CHRISTIE: And I am confident that he will make America great again.

MOOS: The Donald has his work cut out for him, making his V.P. great at delivering his signature line.

TRUMP: And we are going to make America so great again.

MOOS: Jeanne Moos, CNN --

PENCE: And we can make.

CHRISTIE: America.

GINGRICH: Great again.

TRUMP: Greater than ever before.

MOOS: -- New York.


BURNETT: Somehow, Jeanne just captured this whole thing better than anybody else yet has. Before we go, I want to welcome somebody very important, though. The newest member of our OUTFRONT family, that's Samuel Haag, all of five days old today. You look at him, he looks a lot older, there's a reason, I'll tell

why. Samuel's dad is Andrew, our senior producer here at OUTFRONT. He was born on Friday at 10 pounds, 2 ounces and that's why he looks older than five days. He joins his older brother William in keeping his mother and father sleep deprived, ready for the world, beautiful little family. We all send our love and congratulations to them.

Thanks to all of you. We'll see you tomorrow.

Anderson starts now.