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Sources: Top Manafort Aide Oversaw Melania's Speech. Aired 9- 9:30a ET

Aired July 19, 2016 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

[09:00:20] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. I'm live at the Republican National Convention in Cleveland, Ohio.

The question this morning, were there striking similarities or was it straight-up plagiarism? The Trump campaign is not just defending, they're denying Melania Trump delivered a plagiarized speech at the Republican National Convention last night.

We're getting much more information about how this speech came to be. But Melania Trump's remarks sounded eerily familiar. A sample for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: We want our children and all children in this nation to know --

MELANIE TRUMP, DONALD TRUMP'S SPEECH: Because we want our children in this nation to know --

OBAMA: That the only limit to the height of your achievements is the reach of your dreams and your willingness to work hard for them.

M. TRUMP: That the only limit to your achievements is the strength of your dreams and your willingness to work for them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: It is a big controversy this morning. Trump's campaign manager was on "NEW DAY." His name is Paul Manafort. I'm sure you've heard of him. He says these accusations are simply absurd.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Who takes the fall for cribbing Michelle Obama's speech in 2008? Whose fault is that?

PAUL MANAFORT, TRUMP CAMPAIGN CONVENTION MANAGER: Well, there's no cribbing of Michelle Obama's speech. These were common words and values, that she cares about her family, that things like that. I mean, she was speaking in front of 35 million people last night. She knew that. To think that she would be cribbing Michelle Obama's words is crazy.

It's -- I mean, this is once again an example of when a woman threatens Hillary Clinton, how she would try to seeks out to demeanor and take her down. It's not going to work.

CUOMO: All I'm saying is the language is strikingly similar. I'm not making a big deal of it. I know everybody's talking about it this morning, but I don't think it's an allegation. It's not some suggestion without proof. I think it happened. I don't understand why the campaign doesn't just own it and say, people borrow phrases, that's what happened and move on. That's what ironically Obama did in 2008 when Clinton said that he cribbed from Duvall Patrick. He said, yes, you're right, I did it.

MANAFORT: Yes -- no, I -- he did do it. That's correct. But in this particular case --

CUOMO: But --

MANAFORT: You know, there's a process certainly and collaboration -- certainly there's no feeling on her part that she did it. You know, what she did was used words that are common words. And to expect her -- to think that she would do something like that knowing how scrutinized her speech was going to be last night is just really absurd.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: We are covering all of this with our team of political reporters and experts. But I want to begin with CNN's Phil Mattingly. He has breaking news surrounding the story.

Phil, what can you tell us?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, obviously the Trump campaign not giving an inch at all, in fact going on the attack. But we're already starting to see splits. I've been talking to Republicans all morning, Carol. And they're all frustrated by this, they're all concerned about it, and frankly they all don't want to talk about it. But just a few minutes ago at a "Bloomberg Politics" breakfast Reince Priebus, the Republican National Committee chairman, saying he would, quote, "probably fire a speechwriter" who had any role in what happened with Melania Trump's speech last night.

Now he went on to couch it by saying it kind of depends on the circumstances and how these things are written. But no question about it, the RNC chairman saying somebody should probably be fired for what happened last night. All underscoring that when it comes to the Republican Party, a night that was supposed to be a big launching moment, is now problematic.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY (voice-over): The similarities are startling.

OBAMA: You work hard for what you want in life. M. TRUMP: That you work hard for what you want in life.

OBAMA: That your word is your bond, that you do what you say you're going to do.

M. TRUMP: That your word is your bond and you do what you say and keep your promise.

MATTINGLY: Melania Trump's big moment on the national stage overshadowed by an unexpected moment. Trump delivering a speech with plagiarized passages of Michelle Obama's speech from the 2008 Democratic National Convention.

OBAMA: We want our children and all children in this nation to know --

M. TRUMP: Because we want our children in this nation to know --

OBAMA: That the only limit to the height of your achievements is the reach of your dreams and your willingness to work hard for them.

M. TRUMP: That the only limit to your achievements is the strength of your dreams and your willingness to work for them.

MATTINGLY: And that's not all.

OBAMA: That you treat people with dignity and respect even if you don't know them and even if you don't agree with them.

[09:05:03] M. TRUMP: That you treat people with respect.

MATTINGLY: Under a firestorm of criticism online, the Trump campaign issuing this statement overnight, saying, quote, "Melania's team of writers took notes on her life's inspirations and in some instances included fragments that reflected her own thinking."

But the statement doesn't acknowledge the allegations of plagiarism, mention who helped Mrs. Trump write her speech, or explain where those fragments came from.

In an interview shot before her big speech, Melania seems to take most of the credit for the content of her remarks.

M. TRUMP: I wrote it and -- with as little help as possible.

MATTINGLY: Donald Trump's "Apprentice" like entrance to introduce his wife on stage yet another moment that has everyone talking about this unconventional convention.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: And Carol, the campaign obviously publicly not giving any ground, but behind closed doors there appear to be some problems. Top Paul Manafort adviser Rick Gates is said to have over seen the entire process for Melania Trump. That's according to sources familiar with the campaign telling my colleagues Nia-Malika Henderson and Jim Acosta, that they're also saying Donald Trump is furious.

So while the campaign not backing down at all publicly, there are clearly some issues. And I can vouch for that talking to sources this morning. There was a mad scramble after this speech was given last night as they tried to figure out their way forward here. There are clearly a lot of questions right now. The campaign is, at least internally, Carol, seeking answers.

COSTELLO: All right. Phil Mattingly, I'll let you get back to reporting. Thanks so much.

Joining me now on the phone Barry Bennett, a former senior adviser to the Trump campaign.

Good morning, sir.

BARRY BENNETT, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN: Hey, Carol.

COSTELLO: So Melania Trump -- were parts of her speech plagiarized?

BENNETT: Well, you know, plagiarized is a tough word, but it's hard to argue that there are entire phrases and sections that are, you know, almost identical to the 2008 speech.

COSTELLO: Do you believe that Melania Trump, like she told NBC, wrote most of this speech?

BENNETT: Well, I think that she -- I think she probably feels like she did, but obviously there were staff writers who were putting this together who did her a great, great, great disservice. I thought it was a fabulous speech and a great introduction. And to have it tainted by horrific staff work is incredibly disappointing.

COSTELLO: We understand that the person overseeing Melania Trump's speech was Rick Gates, who was a top adviser to Paul Manafort or a top aide to Paul Manafort, rather. First of all, do you know that to be true?

BENNETT: I'm not physically involved, but I have sources that have told me that, yes.

COSTELLO: So it was Rick Gates. So what should happen to Rick Gates? Should Donald Trump turn around and fire him or fire someone who might have been responsible for pulling these passages out of Michelle Obama's speech?

BENNETT: Well, you know, I've been a campaign manager to presidential campaigns before and if a staffer for me had done this, they wouldn't be there at the end of the day.

COSTELLO: So you would have fired that person?

BENNETT: I mean, I think to embarrass a spouse in front of her first national audience, that's inexcusable. COSTELLO: Why doesn't the Trump campaign, Mr. Trump in particular,

come out and say something about this? I know we heard from Paul Manafort and he sort of denied the whole thing. But you're right, it's difficult to deny that parts of Melania Trump's speech sound awfully familiar to parts of Michelle Obama's speech.

BENNETT: Yes. I mean, I -- you know, people always try to deny that this happened, but if you look at the phrasing, you know, just play the audio clips, I mean, this is not a deniable offense.

COSTELLO: So is this the time that Donald Trump should come out and say, look, I'm really sorry about what happened and I feel terrible about what it's done to Melania Trump, who was very nervous before this speech. So I am going to fire whoever was responsible for writing parts of Mrs. Trump's speech. Should he come out and say that?

BENNETT: My guess is he will defend his wife very strongly. I have not -- you know, I don't talk to him on a daily basis. But the Donald Trump I know is not going to tolerate this.

COSTELLO: You know, we know that Melania Trump did not show up when Mr. Trump announced his choice for the VP pick and we know that she had to be talked into giving this speech at the convention.

[09:10:06] Is there a strife between the two over this run for president by Donald Trump?

BENNETT: I think that she can be, I mean, a tremendous asset. I mean, she speaks six languages. She's a very smart person. She's not accustomed to, you know, speaking to 35 million people on television every night. But she can be such a tremendous asset to the campaign. And, you know, didn't get off to a very good start.

COSTELLO: So should she come out and say something? Because, I don't know, if I was Melania Trump I'd be so angry about this and I'd want to say something. Should she say something?

BENNETT: Yes. I mean, you know, they're both in New York this morning and I am certain they are -- breakfast this morning was probably pretty tense.

COSTELLO: You know, the other question I have is the Trump surrogates and people who work for the Trump campaign, they seem to be on different pages when it comes to this. For example, as I said, Paul Manafort said Melania did not plagiarize. Chris Christie told CNN's Jamie Gangel, sure, she plagiarized but just 7 percent of the speech. And then you heard what Phil Mattingly reported about Reince Priebus, the RNC chair, he said, I'd fire the speech writer.

Nobody is on the same page here apparently.

BENNETT: Yes. You know, it takes a - it takes a while. But I think by the end of the day everyone will be on the same page with Mr. Trump leading the charge. COSTELLO: But the question is why aren't they on the same page now?

Because these allegations came out hours and hours ago. They came out last night.

BENNETT: I actually saw some postings now that came out before her speech when they released a copy of her speech, people already -- these phrases that were identical to Michelle Obama's speech. Obviously there was really, really, really poor staff work.

COSTELLO: And certainly -- poor staff work. So what does that say about the Trump campaign?

BENNETT: It sounds like they need better staff.

COSTELLO: This late in the game?

BENNETT: Well, luckily it's, you know, July, not November. They have -- the campaign that they've run, you know, has not been perfect by any stretch, but they are still in the hunt or, you know, in the margins of error of almost every poll. They can increase their game, make their game better. He's going to win. But it's incumbent on them to do that.

COSTELLO: But, Barry, Isn't this the time during the convention to showcase the candidate, to showcase unity among Republicans, right? To show Donald Trump in a new light as a caring, warm person, whose only interest is in the country. And now we're talking about how his wife plagiarized her speech.

BENNETT: And not just, you know, lifted but lifted from Michelle Obama. Yes, I mean, horrific, just horrific.

COSTELLO: Do you think this will have lasting consequences?

BENNETT: No. No, I don't. But I mean, it's a lost opportunity. I mean, Joe Biden went through this several years ago. It stuck with him for 20 years, but that was because he was running for president. My guess is Melania's speeches from this point forward will come from her and her alone.

COSTELLO: I think you're right about that. Barry Bennett, thank you for being with me this morning. I do appreciate it.

So let's talk about this some more. Larry Sabato is the director of the University of Virginia Center for Politics. He's here with me. Ben Ferguson is also here. He's a CNN political commentator. And Leslie Rutledge is also here. She's a member of the RNC Rules Committee.

Welcome to all of you.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good morning.

COSTELLO: So, Leslie, I'll start with you.

LESLIE RUTLEDGE, ARKANSAS ATTORNEY GENERAL: Sure. COSTELLO: You heard what Mr. Bennett told me. Your general thoughts

about what is going on here?

RUTLEDGE: Well, I thought it was a terrific speech. I was in the Q last night watching it. I thought it was a phenomenal opportunity for Melania Trump to introduce herself, to talk about her husband, and that's exactly what she did. Did she use some common phrases that -- you know, my gosh, wouldn't we like more children to have that sort of influence, you know, parents that are talking to their children about working hard and your word is your bond.

COSTELLO: So you don't think she plagiarized?

RUTLEDGE: No, I don't think she plagiarized. I think she used very common phrases. It's a shame that they're so common that, you know, my gosh, the current first lady who --

COSTELLO: The two guys on either side of you are kind of chuckling.

FERGUSON: Yes.

RUTLEDGE: Well, she's a beautiful, smart, almost having five, six languages. You know, what if she had spoken this speech in one of those five? What would we be saying today?

[09:15:01] COSTELLO: I don't think anyone's saying she's not smart or she didn't deliver the speech well. I just think some are accusing her of -- not her per se or whoever helped her with the speech of lifting these passages from Michelle Obama's speech.

RUTLEDGE: I don't think that she did. She probably read and researched on her own. These are common phrases my parents raised me. You know, does it sound similar? Yes. But that's all right. I want to be speaking it and I can assure you, I won't be sounding like Michelle Obama.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: This is one of those situations where just admit -- I feel bad for Melania, I really do. I don't think she wrote these words. I think these words are from someone who was helping her with her speech and they put them in there and it was amateur hour, and it was bush league and it's a jayvee team and you should fire them. They should have been fired last night.

It takes you off message. This is the problem that the Trump campaign has had. You have to come in here and own every day and have a messaging every day. We're spending hours this morning talking about something that should have never been something we were speaking about.

The campaign should not be defending this. They should say someone screwed her over really badly, we have fired this person, they are no longer in the campaign, and we're going to move on.

I feel bad that you have to come out and act like this wasn't plagiarism. And it is plagiarism. It's not her fault. I don't think she did this. I think someone put these words in her. She had a theme, they're good words. No one can take away from that.

But when you take them exactly and then you act like you didn't, it takes away from what she was trying to do.

COSTELLO: Isn't it telling, Larry, that Donald Trump has not come forward with anything, Mr. Tweet every second, right?

LARRY SABATO, DIR., UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA CENTER FOR POLITICS: He should have. He should have corrected it in the middle of the night. He normally is up tweeting. Carol, I'm a college professor. I've taught for 40 years. I've had 20,000 students. I've had many, many student goes to the honor committee for plagiarism.

This is not minor plagiarism. This is major plagiarism and anyone guilty of it would be out of our university in 24 hours. It is an outrage.

Now, I don't know whether she did. But whoever did it should have been identified within ten minutes and fired immediately.

And precisely as Ben said, it's not in your interest to carry something like this on.

FERGUSON: No.

SABATO: Trump has a message every day that he's supposed to be communicating. This will eat up an entire day for him. You pay for your sins.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: A convention day is ten day in my opinion in media focus. Now he's lost an entire day.

And I really do say this -- I feel awful for her. Because I think she did a great job. She didn't want to do that. I feel bad any time family gets taken out of context or misconstrued on a campaign.

She did it to support her husband. I don't think she put this in there. This is a speechwriter. This is an amateur speechwriter who should be fired for this and we should know his name.

COSTELLO: Supposedly, this Rick Gates had something to do with it. He's not an amateur.

FERGUSON: When it comes to speechwriting he is, because if you have to plagiarize Michelle Obama in this way.

(CROSSTALK)

RUTLEDGE: I would love to be talking about the mother whose son was killed and why Hillary Clinton is responsible and what Hillary has done, but unfortunately, we are talking about this, because words are very similar. We're losing the message.

COSTELLO: We are talking about it because we're not hearing from Donald Trump himself. We're not hearing --

FERGUSON: But it's two-part. It's the fact that you're actually saying it wasn't plagiarism which keeps the story going. That's the part I don't understand. I don't understand that logic.

RUTLEDGE: With all due respect to the professor, as an attorney and chief legal officer of this state, we fully appreciate writing briefs and cite. And I'm an English major professor, I think it's important that we listen to the message of Melania Trump and not get distracted by this.

But when you have folks with the never Trump movement, who continue to beat down and look for opportunities, they might as well be working for Hillary Clinton.

SABATO: I'm delighted you're an English major.

RUTLEDGE: No, I'm not a professor.

SABATO: English major. But as an English major, you should know that one of the cardinal sins in your field is plagiarism, particularly of this sort.

RUTLEDGE: I understand. But however -- these are common phrases.

SABATO: Oh, please, out of Michelle Obama's speech. Are you crazy?

FERGUSON: Nice common phrase used word for word. This is a point where to me, it just drives me crazy.

I want Donald Trump to win. I want him to beat Hillary Clinton. But if you sit here and say this Paul Manafort phrase of it's a common phrase. No, it's not when you take it verbatim word for word.

I would have not been able to graduate. You would have gotten rid of any student that did this. This is simple cut and obvious moment. You say it was wrong and this person's fired and you move on with the news cycle. Now every time someone defends what I would call the indefensible, it keeps it going.

COSTELLO: Pause for just a second. Because a while back Donald Trump sat down with a radio talk show host Hugh Hewitt, and he talked about Joe Biden and his plagiarism, right?

[09:20:04] Joe Biden plagiarized in law school and he also plagiarizing a speech during his presidential run in 1988.

This is what Donald Trump had to say about that just a few months ago.

We don't have any sound. You're killing me, man. Let me just shorthand it. I'm going to put it in my mind.

OK, we have it. Yay. I want our viewers to hear it for themselves. So, let's play it.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think I'd match up great. I'm a job producer. I've had a great record. I haven't been involved in plagiarism. I think I would match up very well against Biden.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So, Leslie, in light of what Donald Trump said, doesn't that -- isn't that a bit of irony?

RUTLEDGE: No. Again, I think that Melania had an incredible message talking about Donald Trump as a husband, talking about Donald Trump as a leader. Today that's what we should be talking about.

Today, we're going to be talking about how we're putting America back to work. That's what my speech tonight is going to be focused on, about the differences of Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. That's what we need to be talking about as opposed to talking about whether or not some common phrases that we all use -- in Arkansas, I tell people I was raised right. Now, I doubt anyone is going to say I'm stealing that line from Michelle Obama or Hillary Clinton or anyone else. It's not that they weren't, because they probably were raised right.

FERGUSON: I used the word "y'all and raised right", but that's not plagiarism. Taking from a speech at the same type of convention, we shouldn't even be debating this. We should be honest -- intellectually honest with the American people.

I think this is the things that hurt Trump's campaign more than anything else. And it's the things that drive bonkers and other people. Again, I want him to win.

But if you sit here and keep saying something that everyone that has an intellectual ability to process side by side two speeches, and you tell them what they're seeing is not plagiarism, if you tell them what they're seeing is not what they're seeing, it hurts your campaign, it hurts your messaging. The breaking news should be speechwriter fired by Donald Trump for doing what he did to his wife.

COSTELLO: And I'm telling you, as a member of the media, it would go away a lot quicker.

FERGUSON: A lot faster.

COSTELLO: I've got to leave it there. Leslie Rutledge, Ben Ferguson, Larry Sabato, thanks to all of you for joining me this morning.

FERGUSON: Thanks.

COSTELLO: I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:27:03] COSTELLO: All right. Melania Trump's speech at the Republican National Convention raising eyebrows for its striking similarities to a 2008 speech given by Michelle Obama. Here is the comparison of those speeches for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)

MELANIA TRUMP, WIFE OF DONALD TRUMP: My parents impressed on me the values that you work hard for what you want in life, that your word is your bond and you do what you say and keep your promise

MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Barack and I were raised with so many of the same values. Like you work hard for what you want in life, that your word is your bond, that you do what you say you're going to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Here to talk about this: Margaret Hoover, CNN political commentator. John Avlon, he's the editor in chief of "The Daily Beast", and former chief speechwriter for Mayor Rudy Giuliani. Scottie Nell Hughes is here, she's a Trump supporter, and Brian Stelter, a CNN senior media correspondent.

Welcome to all of you.

John, I will start with you. You are a former speechwriter.

JOHN AVLON, THE DAILY BEAST: Yes.

COSTELLO: Should this have been caught before Melania Trump hit the stage?

AVLON: It shouldn't have been done. Don't put the emphasis on the process and the fact checking. It's the plagiarism right up. And just be real here. This is what it seems to be, it's a straight-up cut and paste with an edit to make it slightly fit Melania Trump better. And --

COSTELLO: Wait, you're a professional speechwriter. So, tell us how this process is supposed to work and what you think happened.

AVLON: Well, it's supposed to work whereby you sit down with the principal, you hear their stories and then you write in their voice a speech that achieves the goals of the convention, the goals of the speech, and expresses the interior life of the principal.

In this case, the goal clearly should have been, look, Donald Trump is not well-understood by the American people, they know him from "The Apprentice", they know him from a vicious primary. You need to talk about him as a father, as a husband, behind the scenes. There were none of those details, which itself is a weird tell.

But the second is this is just a straight up cut and paste with a mild edit. That's a firing offense. The question is, who did it? And the secondary question is, why wasn't it caught? The real scandal also compounding it is the Trump campaign's impulse to lie about it.

COSTELLO: So, Margaret, Melania Trump said she wrote most of the speech herself. She said that to NBC News. MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

COSTELLO: Do you think she did?

HOOVER: It is entirely conceivable, one can imagine that you are going to go out and give a speech, you're going to study the speeches of previous future first ladies. It's easy to imagine her seeing that phrase or that sequence, liking it and incorporating it into her comments.

Now, whether she did or didn't, I mean, that's what the Trump campaign has to answer and frankly somebody ought to be fired for this. And even if Melania did it, my guess is somebody will be fired for this because somebody should have caught it. Frankly, he should play to his brand. He's the guy who says, "You're fired." Just fire someone, own it, and move on.

COSTELLO: Scottie?

SCOTTIE NELL HUGHES, TRUMP SUPPORTER: I know. This is not a traditional campaign. You're right.