Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Cruz Refuses Endorsement; Trump Talks NATO. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 21, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:23] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Here we go. I'm Brooke Baldwin. We're live once again here in Cleveland, Ohio. Welcome to CNN's special coverage of the final day here of the Republican National Convention.

Minutes ago I can tell you that Donald Trump walked through the convention stage preparing for what could be the biggest speech of his life. In just a couple of hours, he will formally accept the Republican nomination to become president of the United States. And yet, right now, we're not totally talking about that. Instead, we're talking about Trump's former arch nemesis stealing the headlines today. We're talking about Ted Cruz.

In his speech, before the RNC last night, he refused to endorse Mr. Trump. That then set off this cacophony of boos within the convention hall. Listen for it.

(VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Producer Lindsey Ferna (ph) gets the shout-out for standing in the middle of the crowd. Little did she know she'd be surrounded by that.

Then, fast forward to this morning. The Texas senator, off the stage and up close, met with his state's delegates there here at the RNC and he revealed why he did not endorse Donald Trump despite taking a pledge, as the campaign has been pointing out over and over, why he did this at this arena, at the Q, during the first Republican debate nearly a year ago. Senator Cruz explained that family loyalty supersedes party unity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: Good morning. And God bless Texas.

It's one of the things I love. One of the things I love - thank you, sir. God bless you.

And I addressed the convention because Donald Trump asked me to. And when Donald asked me to, he didn't ask me to endorse. And, indeed, three days ago I talked on the phone with him and told him, I'm not going to endorse you.

QUESTION: Why not? CRUZ: Well, let me answer that. I - sir, I'm happy - sir, I'm happy to

answer that but I'm not going to engage in a screaming fight.

Listen, I assume there' a reason the Trump campaign wanted me to speak. They saw my speech several hours before I gave it. They knew exactly what I was going to say. I said, we should vote for candidates that you trust. We don't just put on red jerseys or blue jerseys and "yay!"

And so with that, I'm happy to answer any and all of your questions.

QUESTION: Are you going to vote for Trump?

QUESTION: His vote is private.

CRUZ: I am watching. I am listening. But I can tell you, I'm not voting for Hillary.

I'm going to be listening to Donald's speech. I'm going to be listening to how he and the campaign conducts themselves every day from now to November. I'm not going to lie to you and what I said last night is what I believe. So, yes.

QUESTION: I didn't say to support Donald Trump. I said support the party. The party.

CRUZ: You know, I would - OK, so your point was support the party. The Republican Party. And I will -

QUESTION: The party has spoken.

CRUZ: I am not in the habit of supporting people who attack my wife and attack my father.

And that pledge was not a blanket commitment that if you go and slander and attack Heidi, that I'm going to nonetheless come like a servile puppy dog and say, thank you very much for maligning my wife and maligning my father.

QUESTION: You've got to get over it. This is politics. You've got to -

CRUZ: No, no, this is not politics. I will tell the truth. I will not malign. I will not insult. I will not attack. I will tell the truth. This is not a game. It is not politics. Right and wrong matters. We have not abandoned who we are in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All right, so let's start there.

Sara Murray, let me just bring you in. So we had the Ted Cruz of last night. We saw this Ted Cruz from this morning. How has the Trump campaign reacted to that?

SARA MURRAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, first I think we have to acknowledge that, yes, the Trump campaign did see this speech ahead of time. They knew this was coming. But there was still some hope that even if Ted Cruz wasn't going to endorse, that maybe he would at least have nice things to say about Donald Trump and that is not what happened. But, today, they are basically out there casting Ted Cruz as a sore loser.

[14:05:05] And Donald Trump, of course, took to his favorite medium to do this. He tweeted, "other than a small group of people who have suffered massive and embarrassing losses, the party is very united. Great love in the arena."

And, Brooke, I can tell you, from being there last night, there were delegates who supported Ted Cruz who were angry at the senator for doing this, for going out there, for not endorsing. And I talked to a number of Republican donors, and these are not necessarily Donald Trump supporters even, who were also very frustrated by Ted Cruz. They felt like it was a snub to Trump, but also to the party, and also to the convention. And we see a little bit of that anger, a little of that frustration from Donald Trump Jr. today. Take a listen to what he to tell CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP JR., DONALD TRUMP'S SON: I think he galvanized everyone behind my father. I didn't see the divisiveness that they were talking about. I was on the floor. I saw incredible unity. And if there were a couple stragglers after last night, you heard it, they were all in our court because they understand that our primary mission is to put someone in the office, that's my father, and that's not Hillary Clinton.

Because Ted Cruz does what's good for Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz isn't thinking about those things. Ted Cruz is thinking about, you know what, if Hillary Clinton gets this, I can run again in four years as opposed to waiting for eight, when my father would finish up his second term. I think it's pure showmanship.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MURRAY: Now there are certainly people who will never be on board with Donald Trump, who were watching Ted Cruz from home last night. And this, I'm sure, invigorated them. But from the view of the Trump campaign and many of his allies, they believe Ted Cruz actually brought them one step closer to bringing that arena together. They're expecting Donald Trump to get a very warm reception tonight, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Sara Murray, thank you very much.

You know, Senator Ted Cruz, he had a lot of critics inside that Texas delegation meeting this morning. But you know what, so did Donald Trump. One delegate says Trump still has a lot of healing and improving to do in his perspective.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DIANNE WILLIAMS (R), TEXAS GOP DELEGATE: There are a lot of us that are upset of not just what he did to Ted, what he did to many people. He needs to come in and promise us he's going to be the president we were hoping for, that he will stand by the Constitution, that the will preserve our values, that he will do the right thing and shut up his ugly mouth and quit saying nasty things about people. That hurts our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: OK. This is the final day of the RNC. There is a heck of a lot to talk about. With me now, CNN political commentator, Mary Katharine Ham, who's at "the Federalist," Matt Schlapp, chairman of the American Conservative Union, David Gergen, CNN's senior political analyst, and, Ana Marie Cox, senior political correspondent for MTV News.

So, first off, I'm just kind of wondering, watching, you know, Ted Cruz this morning with his Texas delegation, show of hands, who thinks Ted Cruz - explaining that this was personal. You know, he's irked with Trump that he threw his wife and his dad under the bus. Who thinks Cruz is walking away looking good? Show of hands.

ANA MARIE COX, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, MTV NEWS: Well, this is a rashaman (ph) question.

BALDWIN: Yes.

COX: This is like a rashaman (ph) question. This is like who - it's not -

BALDWIN: I'm not trying to do verbal jujitsu with you. I'm just -

COX: No, but I'm like, I mean, I, personally, think he looks good, but that's because I have an fairly - an opinion that standing up to Donald Trump is a good thing. But people here, I'm not sure if they think - I think Trump would tell you he embarrassed himself. You know, I think -

BALDWIN: But before we get to Trump thoughts, I'm - why do you think maybe he looks -

MARY KATHARINE HAM, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, because I think this is -

BALDWIN: Strong.

HAM: There are many - this is a divided party.

COX: Yes.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HAM: And the idea that it was going to get papered over and solved here I thought was false from the beginning.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HAM: There are real divisions. There are real - there's a real group of people in that arena that liked him standing up to Donald Trump.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HAM: There's another group of people who are on the fence, who are saying, I don't know how to say no to this, and he's saying, here's the way. And so I think it's - to me it looks like some courage and I think they're - down the road, when we look back and say like, what does this party actually stand for when it comes to character and when it comes to values? It's not just personal. It's about the fact that this is a man who crosses the line in many, many ways -

BALDWIN: Yes.

HAM: And does not do the bare minimum to make up for it by just asking for an endorsement, for instance.

MATT SCHLAPP, CHAIRMAN, AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE UNION: Brooke, I -

COX: Well, I want to actually point out that this is actually all personal. There's actually no policy on the table here at all. Like, if you'll notice, he didn't single out a single policy issue, either last night or this morning, that he disagrees with Trump on. In fact, when they campaigned, all the arguments were over personality. All of the -

BALDWIN: I mean he basically - he basically talked about his wife and his dad. As a Trump supporter --

SCHLAPP: Let me - let me just say, I was -

COX: Yes.

SCHLAPP: I was at - I was at the breakfast.

BALDWIN: Right. Right. Yes.

SCHLAPP: I was the speaker before Ted Cruz got on. I watched the whole thing unflowed -

BALDWIN: Unfold.

SCHLAPP: Unfold before me. I've never seen anything like this. That is an 80 percent Ted Cruz room. These are red Texas delegates.

BALDWIN: Yes.

SCHLAPP: All with their cowboy hats and everything else. After last night, that room had switched the other way. You had Cruz people in that room who were really, really upset. The drama in that room tells a lot about what's going on in the party. But the key thing there was, not about the policy disagreements, just as you said.

COX: There isn't one.

SCHLAPP: It is, there is a protocol to all this and they felt like they got bamboozled by a guy they love and respect. And I love and respect him, too. And they felt like they're out there making the case for Trump, even though they don't know Trump that well, and they - and they want - they want their senator to be there with them.

[14:10:04] HAM: Yes, they just - they just -

BALDWIN: Yes, I want to come back to you. Hold on. Let me - let me go to David Gergen just for a second.

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Listen, I think he's perfectly reasonable to be angry about the attacks -

BALDWIN: He, Ted Cruz, yes.

GERGEN: Ted Cruz, about the attacks on his wife -

BALDWIN: Yes.

GERGEN: And the attacks on his father.

BALDWIN: Yes.

GERGEN: They were totally gratuitous. Shouldn't have happened. But you know what? If he did - if he was going to come here and be disloyal to his party, disloyal to the cause why so many people are here, he should have stayed home. He could just have stayed home. He didn't have -

HAM: But his whole branding (ph) is being disloyal to the party.

GERGEN: He didn't -

BALDWIN: Yes.

HAM: That's what he's been doing.

GERGEN: He - but, no, no, no, wait a second.

BALDWIN: He's just like, that's not a secret.

GERGEN: But - but this - the purpose of this - this convention is to help Republicans win the election in November. That's the sole purpose of this convention. And for him to come in here and tear apart the third night and cause this more discord only sets back that cause.

BALDWIN: Did - do you know, or do you know, did the Trump campaign - I mean they invited him. They invited any of them, you know, to come on.

SCHLAPP: Yes. Yes.

BALDWIN: You know, one theory out there, did they orchestrate the boos.

SCHLAPP: No.

BALDWIN: No, they didn't orchestrate the boos. So then you had -

COX: They're claiming to have.

SCHLAPP: No.

BALDWIN: You have -

SCHLAPP: No, let me - let me - no.

BALDWIN: Clear it up. Clear it up first and then I want to follow up with you.

SCHLAPP: No, look, has this campaign been as maniacal about checking everything that's going to go on, on the stage? No, we already know that, right?

BALDWIN: Yes.

SCHLAPP: They've had a little more of a lesafar (ph) attitude, which I actually think is pretty good. They knew what Ted Cruz was going to do in his speech. They knew that -

BALDWIN: He saw the speech two hours ahead of time. Knew the endorsement wasn't happen.

SCHLAPP: They knew it was an open question as to whether the endorsement was going to happen.

BALDWIN: Right.

SCHLAPP: And I think it was - it was good of them to still allow him to have his moment. And I think for much of the speech I think the Cruz people, good people - hell of a great campaign - they wrote a speech that they thought would really showcase our conservative values. And they did it. It was a great speech. I mean they really had all - they had that whole room - they had that room so excited about the speech -

BALDWIN: Mega standing ovation.

SCHLAPP: That they built up the expectations that, oh, my God, it really is going to happen. And then when it fell off the cliff, and it swerved, the crowd got confused. And so that wasn't - those weren't Trump boos. I was in that crowd. Those were not Trump boos. That was kind of (INAUDIBLE) boos -

BALDWIN: What about, though -

SCHLAPP: Because they were so shell-shocked by what had happened.

BALDWIN: What about though also then you see, if you're watching it on television, you see, cut to, you know, Donald Trump sort of off to the side, thumbs up.

SCHLAPP: That was - yes.

BALDWIN: What was that? Was that orchestrated?

SCHLAPP: Well, it was - I -

COX: Oh, absolutely (ph).

BALDWIN: Was he ready to pop up knowing what the speech was or wasn't?

SCHLAPP: I don't know. He was going to come out.

COX: Of course it was, yes.

SCHLAPP: He was going to come out and sit in the family box for Eric's speech, but I don't know if they knew exactly what he was - Ted Cruz would be saying from the stage.

What surprised me - I give Ted Cruz credit, he stuck to that script mostly. He had one little phrase in there in the beginning that Newt Gingrich reiterated. He stuck to the script no matter how bad it got. The guy's tough. The only problem is, he didn't perceive what was happening in the hallway. And I think he really hurt himself but just trudging through and being so tone deaf.

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Mary Katharine.

HAM: In a normal year the purpose of a convention is to help the party win. And - put on your jersey and get out there and win.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HAM: The central question for this party is, win at what cost?

COX: Right.

HAM: And Ted Cruz has decided that there is this line. And, further, when you invite somebody to a party and they come and everybody says, well, then don't throw the drinks on the table -

COX: Right.

HAM: It's rude. Well, he sent him a letter saying this is what I'm going to do. And the Trump campaign, this is indicative of a problem with the campaign, did not say, hey, maybe take it or leave it.

SCHLAPP: Can I just say one thing, Brooke?

COX: Yes, I -

SCHLAPP: Brooke, it's not just win at what cost, it's lose at what cost. And that's what really upsets these delegates. We can have this whole conversation about who would be the best nominee, but we did that already.

(CROSS TALK)

BALDWIN: Does Trump address - does Trump address it tonight?

GERGEN: No.

BALDWIN: No.

COX: I do think that - I do think that, well, oh, boy, gosh, who knows what's going to happen tonight. I mean I think the thing is like -

GERGEN: Well, actually, he could - he shouldn't get down there.

BALDWIN: He shouldn't -

COX: He shouldn't, but so I was talking to someone, a Republican operative, who told me that he thinks tonight's going to be substantive, the arrance (ph) of grieving. They (INAUDIBLE) of grievances and the shows of strength.

BALDWIN: Yes.

COX: You know, like that's what's going to be on stage tonight. And I think that, oh, man, like teleprompter Trump is not very compelling, right? And he hates being on a teleprompter. My interest is if he's going to like - is he going - like -

BALDWIN: It may be a little bit of both. That's what Michael Cohen (ph), the attorney, was saying, a little bit of Teleprompter, a little bit of -

COX: Yes. And I wonder what kind of mix we're going to get.

BALDWIN: Impromptu.

GERGEN: Yes.

SCHLAPP: Well, how about Scott Walker, who put a lot - who memorized a lot of his speech, looked like it was ad libbed. It was a wonderful speech.

COX: Wait, what?

SCHLAPP: I wonder if Trump's going to do -

COX: It was a what -

GERGEN: Sure.

COX: I mean it was OK, but like he - he's not -

SCHLAPP: Well -

BALDWIN: Final - final thought, David. David Gergen, I refer to you. We've got to go.

GERGEN: I - they're going to sit down and coach him on what he's going to say off - he'll - of course he'll make some remarks. I don't think he's going to go down (ph). He doesn't want to re-open this tonight. This is a much, much bigger speech, much bigger forum. I think Ted -

BALDWIN: Is there, you know, a surprise tonight? I mean there was plagiarism, there was lock her up, there was the Cruz boos. What's tonight?

GERGEN: Well, I - I think - I think the surprise ought to be that he's turn into a presidential candidate and -

COX: Well, that would be a surprise.

BALDWIN: OK.

SCHLAPP: I agree.

BALDWIN: All right. On that, thank you so much to all of you, very, very much. You're not going anywhere, by the way, because we have more to talk about with this "New York Times" interview with Mr. Trump. This new interview speaking definitely some backlash after Donald Trump says it's possible that the U.S. may not defend its NATO allies. What exactly he told "The Times." It's really significant and now we also have the majority leader of the U.S. Senate speaking out on this.

Also ahead, hear from Ivanka Trump, who is introducing her father this evening, about why she says he sometimes doesn't listen to her advice.

[14:15:05] Also ahead, disturbing video of this African-American therapist who was out trying to help this autistic client. What - he had his arms up in the middle of the street and he ends up shot by police. Hears happened, what the officers are saying. We've got to talk about this one today.

You're watching CNN's special live coverage. I'm Brooke Baldwin in Cleveland.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Donald Trump causing shockwaves across the foreign policy community today after comments made to "The New York Times" in the thick of this convention here. When you read through this, I mean essentially the headline is that he would not, if elected president, would not necessarily defend U.S. allies, NATO nations, if they were attacked by a foreign power, like, for example, Russia.

Why? Well, here is, in part, what Mr. Trump told "The Times." Quote, "you can't forget the bills. Many NATO nations are not making payments, not making what they're supposed to make." When pushed on whether the U.S. would come to the aid of the members of NATO, if they were attacked by Russia, he replied, quote, "have they fulfilled their obligations to us? If they fulfill their obligations to us, the answer is yes."

[14:20:10] So with that, I want to bring in Ben Juda (ph), author of "Fragile Empire: How Russia Fell in and Out of Love with Vladimir Putin," and David Gergen is still here with me in Cleveland, CNN's senior political analyst and former presidential adviser to Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton.

So before we talk to both of you, David Gergen, we were just discussing, we - Manu Raju, our go-to guy on "The Hill," is here on Cleveland. He just talked to the Senate Majority leader, Mitch McConnell, who was reacting to those, you know, explosive comments from Donald Trump. Here's what Leader McConnell said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: What do you think about his foreign policy right now, specifically his comments that he made today about NATO?

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R), MAJORITY LEADER: Yes, I disagree totally with what he said about NATO. It's the most important military alliance in world history. It remains relevant today. Many Americans don't know the operation in Afghanistan has been a NATO operation. And I want to reassure our NATO allies that we will come to the defense of any member that is threatened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, Leader McConnell totally disagrees. I want you to comment on his comments, but also the timing of these comments the day before he gives this huge speech.

GERGEN: I - well, I think they're two - surprise. One, the minor surprise, why the hell did he do it in the middle of his convention and cause yet another uproar and another distraction from the main event, and that is trying to convince people why he should be president over the next four years.

BALDWIN: Right.

GERGEN: And, you know, he just - and nobody can understand that. But I - I tell you, the more serious thing is, the foreign policy community is very rattled yet once again because they see it, just as Mitch McConnell said, that NATO is not only the most important but the most successful military alliance in history.

BALDWIN: Since World War II.

GERGEN: Certainly since World War II. We had two world wars in Europe, and then we formed a NATO alliance and for 70 years we've kept the peace. And you know what it was - it was famously said when it was created, the purpose of NATO is to keep the U.S. in, the Russians out, and the Germans down. And that's what it's done. And it has preserved the peace. Germany loves it. Everybody loves it. And increasingly it's doing things out of area.

But at the moment, as David Sanger (ph) noted from "The New York Times" in the conversation -

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes.

GERGEN: The Baltics are feeling under real pressure from Russia.

BALDWIN: Yes.

GERGEN: Submarines are there. There are flights going over. Putin seems to be threatening the Baltic nations, Estonia, Lithuania and Lithia are all members of NATO. And if the United States is not going to support them, they really deeply worry, and rightly worry, that the Russians are going to come in and (INAUDIBLE).

BALDWIN: And on that, that's why I wanted to bring Ben Judah on this show today. You've written so much about Putin. How do you think these words are sitting with Vladimir Putin? Is this Trump, whether he realizes it or not, giving Putin the green light to go in, take those eastern bloc countries?

BEN JUDAH, "FRAGILE EMPIRE: HOW RUSSIA FELL IN & OUT OF LOVE WITH PUTIN": Well, Vladimir Putin believes that NATO is much more a sort of rhetorical thing than a real thing and that sooner or later there will be opportunities presented by American weakness to start - chip away at it. And Trump is confirming his belief.

I think that the - what Trump said will be looked at a little more closely in Moscow than maybe it has been in the American media in which he's just sort of opening up a possibility he might not defend these territories, didn't say that he wouldn't. And I think that it will encourage people in the Russian establishment who think that sooner or later a moment of American weakness will present itself and that that imperial territories could be reclaimed.

BALDWIN: I mean essentially what he's saying is, you know, it - he - depending on which country it is, he'd want to take a look as far as what they've done for us and whether or not we, the United States, would want to then, you know, defend this NATO nation, depending on the circumstances. Then, take that and juxtapose that with what we saw from his vice presidential pick, Mike Pence. This is what Governor Pence said last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We cannot have four more years apologizing to our enemies and abandoning our friends. America needs to be strong for the world, to be safe. And on the world stage, Donald Trump will lead from strength. Donald Trump will rebuild our military and stand with our allies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Stand with our allies, David Gergen.

GERGEN: Stand with our allies. That's right. And what Mike Pence has said -

BALDWIN: Yes.

GERGEN: Has been sort of standard Republican belief four years now. And, by the way, NATO is - has bipartisan support. The Democrats - every president, you know, going back to Truman, has supported NATO, has thought it was fundamental. And once you - and NATO entirely depends on the notion that you can count on the United States being there, whether you paid your dues or not, if the Russians come, you can count on the United States to come to your aid, and every other country coming to your aid.

[14:25:06] And, yes, Donald Trump ought to go. Of course he ought to go and see if they can't get them to pay up. And, yes, they're not pulling their load. But you don't get there. You just - you scare people around the world when you begin questioning the commitments, the treaty commitments to the United States.

BALDWIN: Just quickly, because this is so, so huge today. Does he - you know, he has to talk about foreign policy in his speech.

GERGEN: He does.

BALDWIN: His mega speech tonight.

GERGEN: He does.

BALDWIN: Does he double down on these notes?

GERGEN: I - well, I - I would (INAUDIBLE) that he does.

BALDWIN: This is what he believes.

GERGEN: He clearly believes that. I think that over time you may see him change. He's evolved on a lot of other issues. But I think that this was a signal, right in the middle of his convention, that you don't know where he's going to go. And, you know, the United States has been the glue that's really sort of held the world together. I mean you take us out of Europe, take us out of the Middle East, take us out of East Asia, the world becomes a very chaotic and dangerous place. And the U.S. is threatened. The whole point of all of this is, we're not just trying to defend the mainland of the United States. The way we defend the mainland is to make sure they don't get into Europe. The Russians don't get into Europe. Or the Chinese don't expand in somewhere.

BALDWIN: OK, David Gergen, thank you very much.

GERGEN: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: I appreciate you, as always.

And, Ben Judah, thank you very much, as well, on the Putin perspective. We'll be listening to all these threads coming up this evening in Mr. Trump's speech.

Coming up, though, even though Ted Cruz was booed, did he steal the show? My next guest argues that Senator Cruz made one of the most consequential convention speeches of any non-winner,. Obviously not everyone agrees with that, even some of Cruz' Texas delegates waving those cowboy hats around. We'll talk to all sides coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)