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Five Dead in Germany Shooting Spree. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired July 22, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:01]

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's the number we're hearing, Brooke.

And, as you know, in these situations, the numbers do change. So, it could up, it could go down. But the latest, six people reported dead, other people injured at that McDonald's restaurant where you saw the video, at the Olympia Mall, which is across from the street from the McDonald's, part of this large shopping complex on the northwest side of town.

And, then, of course, still that ongoing police situation in the center of Munich. Subway service has been stopped. Bus service has been stopped, and this all unfolding in the middle of the evening rush hour. All of this disruption happened as many people in the city of more than 1.5 million were heading home from work, getting ready to begin their weekend.

And so there are a number of people who were told to evacuate public areas, but may be far from their homes, may not have a place nearby that they know of to go, which is why you see that open door hashtag trending German social media.

The State Department telling Americans in Munich to shelter in place until further notice. Obviously, there are concerns that these shooters may still be on the run and still have the potential to hurt more people. We also need to keep the door open here about the motive here.

While obviously your first thought is terrorism, this is a country -- Germany is a country that is very divided. Many people extremely xenophobic, given that Germany has welcomed so many refugees. We don't know if the gunman was perhaps somebody -- a German themselves targeting outsiders, or if it was an outsider targeting Germans.

All of these details, we need to consider, but it doesn't diminish the fact that this is a terrifying situation once again in Europe, a week that we have already seen so much terror already.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: We don't know what's happening. I'm so glad you made that point, terror or otherwise. I think just terror jumps in so many people's minds, given all these different attacks in Europe and beyond recently.

Will Ripley, stay with me. Let me also just pass along some information I was just handed here.

We know the president of the United States, who we saw just, what, an hour or so ago speaking with the president of Mexico, President Pena Nieto.

We know that President Obama has been briefed on what is going on here in Munich. We're going to turn the sound around for you, but essentially what the president has said, we don't know exactly what is happening there, it is still an active situation, calling Germany one of our closest allies and the president pledged all of the support they may need.

Juliette Kayyem is joining this conversation. She's a new voice here on this breaking news in Munich, CNN national security analyst and author of "Security Mom."

Juliette Kayyem, you're watching all of this with me. What do you think? What are you thinking?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: So I'm thinking what we're all thinking, and this is what you want law enforcement in Germany to be thinking, is that this might be a coordinated terrorist attack, and so that is why you're seeing all these pictures of law enforcement heavily armed.

They're both local and federal in Munich, at least from what I can tell visually, that it's both the national and the local. What we don't know, Brooke, is these other sort of police situations that we're hearing throughout the city. We don't know yet, so we just have to be careful. We don't know if they are multiple attacks that are being addressed or if there was eyewitnesses of some of the suspects and the police have now surrounded them.

I'm going to hold judgment on whether this is a multiple attack incident or whether we're actually just being -- in the world of Twitter and Facebook, we're just seeing a live police action.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Let me stop you and just direct everyone. I don't know if you have a monitor where you are. You see these two police officers, and you see these three guys in blacks' hands up. They look to me -- I see some cameras. They could be journalists trying to get a little too close.

But what is happening here?

KAYYEM: We're literally in the situation. We -- you and I always talk about an ongoing investigation. This is an ongoing attack. The motive matters to no one right now who is on the ground. Whether these guys are Islamic terrorists or they're right-wing, no one cares right now. You need to stop the situation. Right?

You need to stop any potential future violence and they don't have any situational awareness right now, the German law enforcement officials. They don't know what's about to happen, so they're going to assume that anyone could be a potential terrorist or violent person.

I will say, Brooke, I always like to look for good news in these things in a year in which you and I have been together too much. One of the good things I have heard out of this was, not only the quick response, but your reporters are reporting something that we learned out of September 11, and then later out of the July 7 attack in London, is that when something happens, close mass transit.

So, lot of people may be wondering. Well, people can't get home. What you want to do is close mass transit. You don't want to leave vulnerable soft targets open to future attacks. That's what actually happened in London.

[15:05:03]

So the closing of the buses, trains and any transportation is actually a way to force people to shelter in place, and also a way to minimize a large soft target if there are other attacks planned.

BALDWIN: Quick response. Tremendous law enforcement presence. We have been watching members of SWAT.

Juliette, stay with me.

Bob Baer, he's with us as well, former CIA operative, CNN intelligence and security analyst.

Bob Baer, I just want to ask you sort of the same question from a tactical perspective that I asked Juliette. When you see these -- I don't know if they were SWAT, or obviously law enforcement, guns drawn with three others walking toward them hands up, they I imagine just have to take every single precaution. You don't know hot gunman could be.

BOB BAER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, exactly.

Juliette had it right. What you do is you cordon off the area. You insert SWAT teams into the situation to stop any further murder. And people coming out, you don't know whether they were the shooters or not. They have to be stopped, I.D.s looked at and probably held for a while, because it's very, very confusing for the German police, a situation like this, especially inside of a mall.

What they don't want to happen of course is the gunman to get away and strike again or just get away period. So the Germans are doing the right thing. But if there's multiple attacks across the city, it is all that much harder.

But what I can say now is, they have to suspect it could be the Islamic State, and then they need to move as fast as they can. They do not have time to set up around the mall and do a proper assault. You will see the Germans all over the city moving very quickly. They're very capable. Their SWAT team, GSG-9, is extraordinary. We're watching police in action.

BALDWIN: Just quickly to follow up Bob, we don't know. There have been no reports of any sort of hostage situation. I know you mentioned Istanbul a moment ago and the airport attack there.

I'm also mindful of what happened in Dhaka and Bangladesh, where you have those gunmen holding up a number of hostages in that cafe late, late at night. I'm wondering, as I'm seeing some of these SWAT guys moving in, how do they try to locate these gunmen? And then obviously would they try to communicate with them?

BAER: They would try, but they're going to have to look at the casualties, whether they were trying to take hostages or trying to kill people.

In Bangladesh, they tried to move into attack the area, but they were shot at and the police there didn't have the right kind of vests, didn't have the right kind of weapons. The Germans will. But, again, the important thing is to save lives, is to move very, very quickly to get in there, to draw off fire and the rest of it to save people.

In one of these situations, you would be surprised how confusing it is for the police, getting a lot of radio calls, a lot of miscues, arresting a lot of people that have nothing to do with it. So moving in on one of these situations, especially if they're terrorists and they're using swarming tactics, could take all the much longer to resolve this.

BALDWIN: General Hertling, we don't know -- the latest reports that we have had now, according to German media, six people now dead. But I'm counting all these different ambulances. The Germans are on it. They're prepared.

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: All I can say is, Brooke, I have worked with the German government multiple times, the German police, the German military. They are all very, very good.

I can't say it enough. They are some of the best security forces I have worked with in the world. They have some very good intelligence flow between both their federal and their state officials. We had an incident few years ago when I was still commanding there of an Islamic organization that was operating out of Frankfurt and the sharing and the information that was passed was professional and dutiful.

And they took action very quickly. You see, even in the pictures of the policemen on the street, their tactical approach and their professionalism is apparent everywhere. The citizens of Germany respect greatly the polizei and how they do business. They pass information quickly and they act very strongly and they no-nonsense when they get into an operation.

So, yes, as some of the other folks have said, their SWAT teams are out. They have more than enough ambulances on the scene. They're going to overload the situation with as much public security and emergency management that they possibly can. They will quickly get this shooter.

But, again, Munich is -- I don't know how to better say it. Munich is a happy city. It is a place where people go to have fun. It is a great place to live. It is a wonderful place to vacation. So having something like this happen in Munich is different than having it happen in Paris or Brussels. It is unexpected.

It's almost like what we experienced here in Orlando when the CNN teams came down here to my new home city. This is a place where good things happen, where you go to Disney World. The same is true for Munich.

[15:10:01]

And it is just terrible that this kind of situation is occurring there.

BALDWIN: But it's also bizarre. You were pointing out a moment ago, let's back to 1972, right, and the Olympics and Black September and the Munich massacre.

This location is a stone's throw from that Olympic stadium, is it not?

HERTLING: It literally is. All the '72 Olympic venues are nearby. In fact, the name of the shopping center is the Olympic Center Shopping Center, roughly translated.

So, yes, many of the Olympic venues are there. This is where the world got one of their first views of terrorism in 1972, when the Palestinians attacked the Israeli athletes. Germany has a strong history of counterterrorism operations. Some of it was built from that event which they received a great deal of discredit for, saying they were not prepared for a terrorist attack during those '72 Olympics.

So, yes, they have countered that. They have had some very good counterterrorism elements within the police force and within the security forces. And from what I can tell looking at what's happening on the street, they are doing a very good job in swarming the scene.

BALDWIN: General Hertling, as always, thank you so, so much. Again, we are waiting to get more information. The latest we have, you see on the screen. According to German media, six people dead. Who knows if that number obviously could rise in a number of hours and also how many people have been injured. Reports of multiple gunmen in potentially multiple parts of Munich.

Michelle Kosinski is our White House correspondent. She's standing outside there in Washington, as we know the president's been briefed and made some comments on what's happened there in Munich. We're waiting to turn those comments around.

But, Michelle, in essence, what did President Obama say?

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, there wasn't much to say at this point, other than the U.S. is ready to offer Germany whatever assistance it needs on this, similar to how we hear the White House respond in any of these incidents, and there has been many recently.

So the president cited the relationship, strong relationship, between the U.S. and Germany and that our hearts go out to the people there. But right now, he's speaking at this event for community policing. He's there to talk about the violence that has happened in this country recently when he again has to respond to another international incident of what appears to be terrorism.

It was also kind of striking today, while he was at a press conference with the president of Mexico, and he was trying to counter some of the rhetoric that we have heard in the Republican National Convention over the past few days, specifically Donald Trump's speech where he talked about the threat of terrorism continuing in the world, destruction and death, and the president really tried to counter that by saying, basically, things aren't so bad.

He was mainly talking about what's happening in America. But while he's delivering these remarks to a crowd here at the White House, this shooting was unfolding in Germany. So this is yet another event that the White House will have to respond to and likely assist with over time.

It's too early to say really whether the president has made a phone call to Angela Merkel. It is probably too soon for that. But you can be sure that when these things happen overseas, right away, top U.S. officials, mainly intelligence officials, getting in touch with their counterparts there.

They're having that discussion, at least initially, to try to figure out what this is. And then we will see a continued White House response over the next couple days and weeks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: We will look for the tape from President Obama at that event.

For now, Michelle Kosinski, thank you so, so much.

We are getting some information here from now Munich police as we have been very careful to couch what this could be. Munich police say the shooting, I'm quoting, "looks like a terror attack." A Munich police spokesperson told CNN that the Olympia Shopping Mall shooting looks like a terror attack. The perpetrators are still on the loose and there are at least three attackers, they say.

That is what we have from Munich police, very, very careful in language at this early stage, but looks like a terror attack.

Juliette Kayyem, looks like a terror attack.

KAYYEM: That's exactly right.

And I'm just comfortable waiting for officials to say so. I would guess that they know or have reason to believe that they can get the identity relatively quickly of the perpetrators. There is plenty of pictures that I have seen so far. If you guys aren't airing them, they're certainly being -- they're on Twitter and Facebook.

That's where the investigation will lead. Now we're at this moment that we have often been at, which is, it ISIS-inspired or ISIS- directed? That's an important distinction for Germany, let alone us. ISIS-inspired would mean that they might be Germans, actually Germans who are radicalized. Or are they refugees or others who have come over from abroad who have been trained?

That's what we will wait for the investigation. But that distinction makes it -- I know people think it is just words. It's not. There is a big difference between Germany having an issue with its own citizens being radicalized, and then obviously if they have a refugee issue.

[15:15:07]

And the reason why is, if these are refugees or people who got in from abroad, there is going to a big debate in Germany, as there has been in France, as there has been in Britain, as there is in the United States, about borders and immigration.

BALDWIN: You're the second person to mention refugees. Obviously, I have to just do due diligence and say we don't know if these are refugees or not.

We have been in France too many times recently for the wrong reasons, right, covering, covering attacks. I was in Nice as recent as seven days ago and we only learned in the past couple of days, right, that that was premeditated, months in the making, he was inspired by ISIS when he then took out 84 -- murdered 84 people on that beautiful promenade along the Mediterranean.

KAYYEM: Look, in a lot of these cases, you're exactly right.

These are nationals of these European countries. Right? It's easy to say, oh, it is a refugee problem, it is an immigration problem. That is a problem, right, in some of these cases. Other cases, a country like Germany, if it is German nationals, this -- remember, France has had its own nationals attacking. That's a European problem.

BALDWIN: Right.

KAYYEM: And that's why it matters. We don't just sort of say everything is terrorism and we know what it means. It is why it matters, why investigations matter. It is why whether they were -- these men, one, two, or three, were trained abroad or if they got radicalized in Germany, how did they get radicalized, who helped them, because this is a horrible day and couple weeks ago was another horrible day.

We are seeing these attacks. And what we have to be able to do is also learn from them, because the only way we're going to minimize what's happening in Europe is obviously try to stop the motivation, who is doing it, but also train and support law enforcement and first- responders in these cases.

I will, like everyone -- all of your other experts who have been on, so far, Germany has just -- Munich has seemed to have responded in the way you would want them to, right, sort of an aggressive use of force, determine what's going on, close all mass transit, tell the public what is going on, so their communication to the public has been sort of absolutely perfect. (CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Juliette, let's listen to President Obama.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I just wanted to come by to say thank you for being here and the extraordinary work that you do each and every day.

I was a little bit delayed. As some of you are aware, there were shootings in Germany. And we don't yet know exactly what's happening there, but obviously our hearts go out to those who may have been injured.

It's still an active situation, and Germany's one of our closest allies, so we are going to pledge all the support that they may need in dealing with these circumstances. It is a good reminder of something that I have said over the last couple of weeks, which is, our way of life, our freedoms, our ability to go about our business every day, raising our kids and seeing them grow up and graduate from high school, and now about to leave their dad -- I'm sorry -- I'm getting a little too personal.

Getting a little too personal there.

That depends on law enforcement. It depends on the men and women in uniform every single day who are under some of the most adverse circumstances imaginable at times, making sure to keep us safe.

And, obviously, we have gone through a really tough time these last couple weeks on a whole bunch of fronts. And most recently, I have had the tough job of talking to the widows of those police officers who had been killed in Baton Rouge.

And I know that for men and women in uniform, each loss like that is like a loss in your own family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All right, so let's pull away. But we just wanted to make sure we all heard those initial comments from President Obama at this event there in Washington.

Germany, as he mentioned, one of our closest allies, and now we're covering what appears to be, according to German police, a terror attack here.

If you are just joining us, let me just tell you what we know and it is not a whole heck of a lot. But according to German media, at least six people have been killed in what could turn out to be multiple locations, multiple shooter situations.

The thing is, they haven't caught anyone. According to eyewitnesses, three different gunmen have been described.

[15:20:03]

I talked to an eyewitness a little while ago who says she saw one of the gunmen dressed in black, a massive gun. But, again, no one's been caught. Essentially, Munich itself on this summer Friday evening is on lockdown. We're trying to get more information here, as it's been a tremendously quick response from German police and beyond.

Stay with me. CNN's special coverage from Munich next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): In the shopping center now.

It's all really fresh. And I can't give you more details. Five persons killed. As for children, that is too early to say. The priority we have is to establish what has happened there at the location and then we need to identify the five persons killed.

So this is a terror situation. We have terrorism. If someone used a rifle, and that was the first report at the shopping center, if somebody takes a rifle in to the shopping center, and if I think about what happened in Europe, so we need to assume the worst case.

And, yes, rifles were mentioned when we got the emergency calls.

QUESTION (through translator): How many police officers, forces, do you have?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Many, many. That's what I can say.

They come from the area of Munich, but if we have such situations, we also can have a strengthening of the forces really quickly because of the neighboring areas that we have sufficient police officers in the city.

QUESTION (through translator): What about the perpetrators?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We believe there are three perpetrators. We have contradicting information, but up to three. They are still at large.

QUESTION (through translator): Can you tell us something about the rifles?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): A long weapon. That means it is longer than a pistol, so it's something like a rifle.

QUESTION (through translator): Where are you looking for these perpetrators? Are you looking just for them in Munich?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We are really quickly, so we assume they are still in Munich and we have had alerts in other areas.

QUESTION (through translator): Do you have any other information about the shooting?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): These are important informations and we hope everybody will share information with us, and we will have an upload portal for our criminal investigation department in order to get more information.

QUESTION (through translator): Why did you cordon off everything?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): It's one of our measures taken, and we want to make sure the inhabitants are secure.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): The police confirmed that five persons have been killed. We have information that all the clinics in Munich are on alert because...

BALDWIN: All right, so they're just turning that around.

In essence, let's correct -- they just corrected to five dead, according to this police briefing in Munich, telling people, as we have been reporting, to avoid public places. These gunmen are at large, they say. They're saying terrorism. Describing -- they're saying, listen, if you have a rifle and you are walking into a shopping center and you begin shooting innocent people, they're calling that terrorism and they are assuming the worst-case scenario, say up to three gunmen all still at large.

[15:25:11]

Someone asked, what does the gun look like? And he responded, it is longer than a pistol. And they are assuming the gunmen are still in Munich.

Bob Baer, anything jump out at you with that new information?

BAER: Well, it is the confusion that's still going on, Brooke. This is an active shooting situation.

And I expect the toll to go up simply because they haven't cleared that mall. It could take them hours to clear it to look for the gunmen. The question is, are the gunmen waiting? Do they have hostages? Right now, the police, the only thing they can do is put a lot of force on it and hope for the best.

The fact that there are three shooters, I find very disturbing. Suggests a coordinated attack, obviously. And, again, I go to the Islamic State or al Qaeda. And that's simply because the Germans have been warning us this week there would be more attacks. They probably picked up some chatter of some sort or even have sources inside these groups.

But it's too late. And you simply cannot protect all these malls. Vulnerable targets, soft targets. And there's not much you can do when someone is assaulting them with a long gun or even a pistol.

BALDWIN: And just reminding people, you talk about German threats. It was just as recent as Monday that there was that Afghan teenager on that train in Wurzburg, Germany.

All of this, Munich, Wurzburg, this is all in the state of Bavaria in the southern part of Germany in the axe attack. That happened Monday. Flash forward to what looks like a terror attack in Munich.

Juliette Kayyem, what are you thinking?

KAYYEM: Well, it's interesting that German officials said terrorism was -- they're using the word terrorism just simply because of the weaponry used. Just making it clear to your viewers, there is a limited number of options and some of them are rather obvious, ISIS- directed, ISIS-inspired, and then the third, which German officials will either include or exclude relatively soon, would be right-wing terrorism, which is probably the lowest on the pecking order.

But they're keeping all three open. They must have pictures of the perpetrators, so until they exclude one group, we're going to keep them all, we, meaning investigators, would keep all of them open. Just picking up what Bob said, this is -- what you are seeing in Munich is lessons learned from years of, unfortunately, this kind of terrorism.

Police are going to come on strong. They are going to assume anyone to be a culprit. They're going to close all mass transit systems and Munich and Germany rightfully seem to be communicating very well with the population in terms of sheltering in place and using social media.

So there are sort of important aspects of the response that are based on just, unfortunately, years of these kinds of attacks.

BALDWIN: And, as you point out, from tragedies past too, doing the right thing and shutting down public transportation. So, Germany responding effectively, quickly and hopefully they're correct in that these three gunmen have not gotten too far and are still in Munich.

Let me bring in another voice in. Colonel Cedric Leighton I believe is with me, CNN military analyst and Air Force colonel, retired.

Colonel Leighton, you have been listening to all of this. From your own sort of your realm of expertise and also given sadly recent events in Europe and beyond, what do you make of this?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, Brooke, it is obviously a big tragedy for Munich and for Bavaria, which as General Hertling pointed out, is basically Germany's playground.

It is one of the signs of the times here, but the German police and their group GSG-9 is very, very good at wrapping these things up and finding the perpetrators of these events. So it will take them some time. The fact this they have shut down public transportation, like you mentioned, is a very, very good sign.

The other thing that I heard looking at some of the German media reports is that the main train station in Germany has also been evacuated. Now, I don't know if you can confirm that independently, but it does show that they may be looking to prevent the alleged perpetrators from escaping via trains.

BALDWIN: Yes, I can confirm that. That is correct.

LEIGHTON: OK. OK, good.

So, that shows you that they're basically sealing everything off. And I can imagine, even though I have not seen any reports to this effect, that they're probably also sealing off access to the airports, and -- because Munich has a major airport, a major international airport, that they are very carefully making sure that these perpetrators don't get very far.

So, with some luck and with some determination, they should be able to wrap that up and be able to make sure that they not only capture them, but also prevent further attacks. And that's really the biggest challenge that they have right now, preventing further attacks.

BALDWIN: That's right. That's right.

Again, five people dead ==