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Trump, Pence Hold Separate Events; Trump Doubles Down on Rigged Election Comment; Knife-Wielding Man Kills American Woman; Aired 10- 10:30a ET

Aired August 04, 2016 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[10:00:45] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now in the NEWSROOM, Trump touting unity.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: It's never been so well united.

COSTELLO: Putting the past aside.

TRUMP: I just visited with some incredible folks. Some really amazing Gold Star families.

COSTELLO: Back on message and attacking Clinton.

TRUMP: She should get an award from them as the founder of ISIS.

COSTELLO: While Trump's opponents target his temperament.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is a showman. He is a pied piper. He's the -- he's the music man. A noun that comes to my mind is a screw loose.

COSTELLO: Let's talk live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thanks so much for joining me.

We begin this hour at the intersection of the campaign trail in Tobacco Road. This hour in Raleigh, Republican VP nominee Mike Pence is kicking off a town hall event. North Carolina is likely a must-win state for Donald Trump and the GOP to capture the White House. When Pence wraps up here, he'll head on to Virginia, another key battleground state.

Donald Trump is blazing his own trail to Portland, Maine. The running mates are holding different events and sometimes almost different campaigns.

Earlier this week, we saw a military mom confront front Pence over Trump's spat with that Gold Star family, the Khans. Pence praised the slain soldier as a hero and paid tribute to the family's sacrifice. A couple of days later, Pence breaking from Trump to endorse the House Speaker Paul Ryan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I talked to Donald Trump this morning about my support for Paul Ryan, our longtime friendship. He strongly encouraged me to endorse Paul Ryan in next Tuesday's primary and I'm pleased to do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: It is an unusual dynamic between running mates and that's just on the surface.

CNN's Phil Mattingly has been working his sources to dig deeper. What did you find out, Phil?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, unusual dynamic. Think about what a running mate is supposed to do, basically walk in lockstep with the nominee, not say anything but what the nominee has said, he's going to vouch for the nominee. Over last couple of days, we've seen almost what seems to be the exact opposite from Mike Pence. But there are a couple of things really to recognize here.

First, Mike Pence isn't doing anything without letting the Trump campaign know first. Before he endorsed Paul Ryan, he had a phone call with Donald Trump. Before that lengthy statement about the Khan family, he made sure to coordinate with the Trump campaign. But it's also important to note Donald Trump has a lot of respect for the very experienced politician that Mike Pence is. He's not overbearing. Campaign sources saying he's basically letting Mike Pence be Mike Pence on the campaign trail. There's an understanding that Mike Pence has a lot of experience doing this and there's also an understanding that Mike Pence has a very well regarded campaign team.

But I think most importantly here, there's a recognition inside the Trump campaign of what Mike Pence actually brings to the table here. On some level, he's the voucher in chief for Donald Trump. He can explain things on the campaign trail that maybe get lost during Donald Trump's boisterous and bombastic rallies. Take a listen to what he had to say about Captain Khan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENCE: Well, Donald Trump and I both have said that Captain Khan is an American hero and we honor his service and his sacrifice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Now a simple statement, but one that it almost appeared Donald Trump was incapable of making for the first couple of days after this all blew up, Carol. And I think that's what's important here. What Mike Pence has been able to do is essentially go on the campaign trail and talk about why he was willing to accept this position. The Donald Trump he sees behind the scenes.

One, I hear from a lot of Republican officials, they talk to him behind closed doors. And it's a very different person than you see on the campaign trail. That's important because all voters, Republicans, but also conservatives who are very wary about the type of candidate Donald Trump is, the type of policy positions he has, where he is ideologically, Mike Pence is working to vouch for all of that. It's a very different dynamic but at least so far it's one that campaign -- people on both sides say is working, Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Phil Mattingly, thanks so much. One more challenge Mr. Trump has to overcome, new polling this morning shows Hillary Clinton -- she has the lead in three key states. Clinton enjoying post-convention highs in Michigan, Pennsylvania and New Hampshire.

So let's talk. I want to bring in my panel now. Two of our CNN political commentators, Donald Trump supporter and former Reagan White House director Jeffrey Lord and former Ted Cruz communications director Amanda Carpenter.

[10:05:03] Welcome to both of you.

JEFFREY LORD, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Happy Thursday, Carol.

COSTELLO: Happy Thursday. And that's because it's just one day before Friday.

(LAUGHTER)

COSTELLO: Thanks, Jeffrey. OK, so, Jeffrey, I will start with you. You know what some are calling Mike Pence, apologist-in-chief for Donald Trump. Is that fair?

LORD: Well, no, I mean, I might say it's standard, vice presidential nominees get the slings and arrows no matter who they are. No matter who would have been on the ticket with Donald Trump. And frankly, if somebody else had been at the head of the ticket other than Donald Trump, the vice presidential nominee would have been taking these slings and arrows so that's just sort of the way it goes.

You know, Carol, on the -- can I talk about the poll for a second?

COSTELLO: Sure.

LORD: The Pennsylvania poll, let me talk that, that's a Franklin Marshall poll and I should say right off the bat I'm an alumnus of Franklin Marshall College, I know the director of the poll, Dr. Terry McDonough, who has told me that Pennsylvania is well within reach for Donald Trump and he certainly can win it, and one observation, I would --

COSTELLO: And you're saying that even looking at this number from this Franklin and Marshall poll?

LORD: He said it -- he said it before, but of course this poll reflects the bounce in the convention, Hillary Clinton's bounce which was expected and that convention was right here in Pennsylvania, in Philadelphia, so I'm not surprised by this. But let me just say this to you, I was with Donald Trump on Monday here in Pennsylvania a few miles from my home at a local high school. There were thousands inside and thousands more outside who couldn't get in. Hillary Clinton was here a few days before that and according to one of the newspaper reports, she had, quote/unquote, a few hundred people. I would suggest that there is an enthusiasm gap here for the candidates.

COSTELLO: Well, let's --

LORD: Where Donald goes, people really turn out. When Hillary Clinton is here, it just wasn't so, and I think we need our eye on that.

COSTELLO: Yes, we do, and you're right about that. Let's talk more about that enthusiasm gap because in that same Pennsylvania poll, and I'll pose this question to you, Amanda, the poll shows Clinton got a huge convention bounce, it is true, but two -- it also shows that two out of three voters -- two out of three in Pennsylvania liked what they saw at the Democratic convention.

It also shows that more people are psyched to vote because of what they saw than they are -- you know, that they are in what they saw at the Republican National Convention. So, Amanda, should we -- should Mr. Trump be concerned about that or is this just a bounce, as Jeffrey says?

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I mean, listen, I do agree with Jeffrey, the polls are going to narrow, but optimism and joy felt a lot better than fear and loathing that's currently happening in the Republican Party.

Donald Trump's path to the nomination is becoming a tight rope. It's become so narrow, so careful. And yes, while the polls will begin to tighten at some point or another, if Trump can recover, there's something I don't think he is going to be able to undo and that's the number of high-profile Republicans who are publicly coming out and crossing party lines to support Hillary Clinton.

Once you lose those Republicans, they're not going to flip-flop back. I think that's a corner that they're not going to be able to come back. It's the point of no return in many respects. So if you got to think, if there's high-profile people like Chris Christie aides, people that work for Rudy Giuliani, Meg Whitman, publicly doing it there's a lot more who aren't, you know, name brand faces thinking the same and that's something they've got to be really worried about.

COSTELLO: And along those lines -- along those lines, Jeffrey, that Michigan poll was conducted by the Detroit News and WDIV, which is local in Michigan, that polls -- and this is what the local media is saying. It shows a shocking lead for Clinton in Republican strongholds in Michigan. Is that cause for concern or is that just the bounce again?

LORD: Well, sure. Sure, I mean, I'm not going to, you know, look through rose-colored glasses here. The campaign has to get on the ball, there's no question. But certainly the candidate is on the ball. And, again, as I say, and I think this probably applies to Michigan and for that matter across the country, the enthusiasm here with the people who are supporting Donald Trump. I mean, these people are very, very passionate and very determined. And I -- you know, poll numbers aside, I just don't see that for Hillary Clinton out there and her crowd situation.

It just isn't there. And when I talk to individuals who are supporting Hillary Clinton, almost always I get this kind of shrug like, you know, well --

COSTELLO: Well, you know, Bernie Sanders had big crowds, too. You know, I just have to bring that up because you know I like perspective here. And Bernie Sanders lost.

CARPENTER: Right, and, Carol, that's a very good point because when I was at the Democratic convention, precisely because I'm on your show and other CNN shows, I was recognized by Bernie delegates. Right off the bat, one of them sought me out. She was very angry and said she had, you know, that basically hell would freeze over before she voted for Hillary Clinton.

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: No, no. That's not what I -- that's not what I was exactly talking about, I'm talking about Bernie Sanders had these huge enthusiastic crowds, much bigger than Hillary Clinton. Still he lost the primary.

[10:10:03] LORD: Right, right, I take --

COSTELLO: So how is that different?

LORD: I take your point, all I'm doing is flipping it around and saying that if those people don't vote for Hillary Clinton, it's a problem.

COSTELLO: That's true.

Amanda, one more thing. I want to play you something that Donald Trump said in Daytona about losing to Hillary Clinton, let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Wouldn't that be embarrassing to lose to Crooked Hillary Clinton? That would be terrible. If we don't make it all the way, think of it, if we don't make it all the way, sort of been a waste of time, don't you think?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So is that good strategy, Amanda?

CARPENTER: I don't think -- no, he calls her the devil and he's losing to the devil by 8 to 10 points in key swing states. I mean, this is -- I mean, here's the thing. Donald Trump just says what he thinks. He doesn't think about it. Everybody says he has to get on message to win the general election. That's like telling a fish not to swim.

Donald Trump speaking his mind without thinking 10 steps ahead is the feature. Not the bug. It is who he is. It what's gotten him into trouble. It's what's driving Republicans away that they cannot defend him on a daily basis. So I don't know how they're going to turn this ship around without physically going in and rewiring his brain.

Poor Mike Pence, every day he has to act like, you know, the person that walks behind the elephant in the parade trying to clean this up. I applaud him for a valiant effort. There's just not that many Republicans willing to do that on a day-to-day basis.

COSTELLO: That was a vivid image.

LORD: Carol --

COSTELLO: Jeffrey, last word then I got to go.

LORD: One last thing. OK. The media plays a role in this. And the audience there on Monday night was death on the media in general. It got the loudest sustained applause and boos directed towards the media crowd in the back. I would suggest that that's playing a role --

COSTELLO: So the media makes Donald say things that perhaps he shouldn't? The media is to blame for that?

LORD: No, the media is to blame for hyping on him over and over and over again. For instance, Mr. Khan was never mentioned neither in his speech or by anyone I spoke to. I spoke to a lot of people Monday night. His name never came up. And yet I come back and there it is on television all over again. That's the media driving this, that is not the people out here.

COSTELLO: Is that fair, Amanda? Do you agree?

CARPENTER: Well, listen, the story kept going because Mr. Khan was willing to do interviews and Donald Trump was egging him on in tweets, which is an extraordinary level of provocation towards a civilian. I don't understand how you can blame the media when Donald Trump was actively keeping the story going and you cannot blame Mr. Khan for not backing down.

This is totally different than the Judge Curiel situation where Donald Trump thought he could be in the dominant position, drive it and then make it go away because that judge couldn't respond. The difference here is that they chose to respond, it kept the story going, and Donald Trump lost the news cycle. He has to admit that. If there's anything that Donald Trump pays attention to, it's the media and the polls. He's losing both battles.

If he cannot find a way to recalibrate in August and listen to people about how to exercise some degree of discipline, this thing -- the bottom is going to fall out.

COSTELLO: All right, I have to leave it there. Amanda Carpenter, Jeffrey Lord, thanks to both of you. LORD: Thanks, Carol.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Donald Trump says the election will be rigged. The White House now pushing back. Is it rigged? We'll talk about that next.

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[10:17:21]COSTELLO: Donald Trump doubles down on his attack that the system is rigged. In fact the billionaire now says he's worried about voter fraud when it comes to the general election where restrictive voter I.D. laws have been thrown out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The whole thing with voter I.D., identification, I think is real -- I mean, people are going to walk in, they're going to vote 10 times maybe. Who knows? They can vote 10 times. So I am very concerned and I hope the Republicans are going to be very watchful.

BILL O'REILLY, FOX NEWS HOST: Yes, they got to be vigilante.

TRUMP: And I hope the authorities are going to be very watchful.

O'REILLY: Everybody has to. OK.

TRUMP: Because I want to tell you, I believe it's going to be -- just like Bernie Sanders, I said it was rigged? Well, it's rigged here, too, believe me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Well, on Wednesday the White House pushed back and said those kinds of claims are usually heard by candidates that are losing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I would just note that it's often a claim made by people who don't end up winning elections. What I'll just say in general is that the cornerstone of our democracy is the ability of eligible voters, citizens, to cast a ballot and have it counted. The more people who participate in that system, the more people participate in that process, the stronger our democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So let's talk about that with Michael McDonald. He's a political scientist at the University of Florida and an expert in voter fraud. He co-authored a major study on the issue.

Welcome, sir.

MICHAEL MCDONALD, VOTER FRAUD EXPERT: Great to be with you, Carol.

COSTELLO: Just tell us how much research you poured into to finding out if there really is a widespread problem with voter fraud in the United States.

MCDONALD: Well, I'd like to start off by just giving a big thank you to all the election officials. They are working hard right now to make sure that everyone has a pleasant voting experience and the elections are going to be conducted in a secure manner.

You know, and that said, whenever you have millions of people engage in any activity, you're going to have a couple of bumps along the way. It's just human nature. So we shouldn't let those little molehills get blown out of proportion into mountains.

Yes, there are isolated instances of vote fraud but upon further examination most of those allegations turn out to be incorrect. Let me give you an example since we're talking about voter I.D. as well. One of the sponsors of the voter I.D. law in North Carolina was accused of voting twice. Election officials went back, looked at the records, and what did they find? They found that his mother had signed on his line of the poll books. And so his vote had been -- a false vote had been recorded as him voting twice.

In most of the allegations, when you start looking very closely at the allegations, and that's the study that you referenced, when we start looking very closely at these allegations, they just don't pan out.

[10:20:04] And so to Donald Trump and anybody else who's very concerned about vote fraud, let me tell you this. That in November, the overwhelming, overwhelming number of votes will be cast and recorded correctly and that --

COSTELLO: So, Michael, when you say --

MCDONALD: We can be assured that the results will be right.

COSTELLO: When you say there are tiny bumps, like give us a perspective. Like how many cases of voter fraud, to voter fraud did you find in what period of time?

MCDONALD: Well, the study that I looked at was a particular state and it looked at sort of these record issues of matching and trying to find double voters. And, again, all of the allegations that we looked at in that particular study appeared to me just to be just mistakes and it wasn't a real case of vote fraud.

Another study on voter impersonation, not double voting or multiple voting, found 31 allegations, and these are only allegations of vote fraud between 2000 and 2014. 31 out of a billion votes cast. So in order to change the outcome of the election, 31 votes just isn't going to cut it.

COSTELLO: So why do politicians, and it's not just Donald Trump. It's other politicians as well. Why do they insist that there's widespread voter fraud in this country?

MCDONALD: Well, one of the allegations, they first come out and it sounds like there's thousands of people engaged in this activity. And those are the initial stories that come out. And then the further investigation we find out that that's not really true. So we're left with this impression that things are going really wrong but the reality is that the elections are being run very smoothly.

There's also unfortunately a political component to this, too, because these allegations are then used to justify laws like voter identification which the courts are now determining that they are discriminatory and that we shouldn't have them in place for our elections.

COSTELLO: Yes. And just to review, judges in North Dakota, Kansas, North Carolina, Wisconsin, and Texas have softened voter I.D. laws because they suppressed minority votes. So when you talk about an election being rigged, is this more an example of an election being rigged than people voting 20 times?

MCDONALD: That's an excellent question. So we're -- when I'm talking about rigged elections, I'm talking about the administration of the elections. There's a higher level of manipulation of elections that can occur which is through the laws that set the playing field how the elections will be run. And those rules are unfortunately over the history of our country, have suppressed votes at one time or another and have shaped the contours of the electorate.

I'm not talking about those r laws. What I'm talking about is someone who's going to go in and vote. You can be assured that your vote will be cast and recorded correctly.

COSTELLO: Got it. So just my final question. When politicians keep repeating that the system is rigged, that the election will be rigged, how does that affect voters across our country?

MCDONALD: Well, and that's where I get really concerned, as someone who cares very much about elections is that, look, that undermines the legitimacy of our democracy. It goes to the very heart of our democracy because our democracy is based on the very, very basic notion that government reflects the will of the people and if you undermine that, if you say that government is not reflective, elections don't do what they're supposed to do, then you shouldn't have democracy in the first place. And again that's just not what's happening in our society and the conduct of our elections.

COSTELLO: Michael McDonald, thanks so much for being with me this morning. Still to come --

MCDONALD: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Donald Trump crying foul over the payment of hundreds of millions of dollars to Iran. The White House -- the White House denies it, but could it all have been just a coincidence?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:28:28] COSTELLO: New details out of London after a knife attack kills an American woman. Right now police are ruling out terrorism after a knife-wielding man went on a stabbing spree last night killing that American and hurting five others.

CNN's Nima Elbagir joins us now live near the scene with more.

Hi, Nima.

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Carol. We also know that in addition to that tragic injury, that tragic killing of the American woman in her 60s, there is also at least one other American who was injured. Already flowers are being laid at the scene of the American woman's attack.

This, police believe, as it stands, to be a purely spontaneous incident. That's how they're characterizing it. But of course given the current climate, Carol, investigations continue. And also given the location, this is on the doorstep of the site of that horrifying attack back in 2005 at the Russell Square underground station. So of course and also with the context of the climate of fear that is sweeping across Europe, it's understandable that police while they believe that this was the act of a man they're characterizing as mentally disturbed, they are leaving nothing to chance.

And we also saw that in the response time. It took five minutes between those five distress calls to go out for police to arrive at the scene and they managed to subdue this man using only a taser. But the London police commissioner has made very clear that while this specific incident doesn't at the moment points towards radicalization, this really is a case at the moment not just in London but across Europe of when, not if.