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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Trump Says Obama Founded ISIS; Presidential Debates. Aired 12- 12:30p ET

Aired August 11, 2016 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00] ROGER ALTMAN (ph): He said that only cost $5 trillion over 20 years. And he wants to cut the highest - income tax rates on the highest earning Americans down to 33 percent.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Right.

ALTMAN (ph): That just doesn't make sense for middle class Americans.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: And we'll hear Hillary Clinton take to the stage and make that case today.

Roger Altma (ph)n, thank you so much for joining us.

ALTMAN (ph): Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you. Thank you all so much for joining us AT THIS HOUR.

BERMAN: "LEGAL VIEW" with Ashleigh Banfield starting now.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

Eighty-nine days, folks, count them, before this election is settled. And three days after Donald Trump unveiled his economic plan in Detroit, it is now Hillary Clinton's turn to do the same thing. In a little over an hour, the Democratic nominee for president is going to talk about whether her plan for what she calls an economy that works for everyone is actually going to resonate.

But the story of the hour right now is Trump's newly incessant claim that President Obama and Hillary Clinton founded ISIS, not were responsible for, founded ISIS. And I know words are important and sometimes people just might misuse them, misstep. We're going to get to that, mark my word. But this is a claim that the Clinton campaign says echoes the talking points of Vladimir Putin, the president of Russia.

Mr. Trump just wrapped up an address to the Home Builders Convention in Miami Beach. And CNN's Sara Murray is there. I'm also joined by CNN's Jeff Zeleny at the venue for Secretary Clinton's economic speech in Warren, Michigan. We'll going to do extensive coverage on all of this.

First and foremost, to the next event. Let's push forward to what we're about to hear where you are, Sara, this latest broadside that came from Donald Trump. He is not retracting any of it. He is not mitigating it. Take it from there.

SARA MURRAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You're absolutely right, Ashleigh, Donald Trump is standing by these comments. And, look, what Republicans have said they wanted from Trump is to turn up the heat on Hillary Clinton. I'm just not exactly sure that this is what they meant. Trump coming out and saying Hillary Clinton and President Obama are the founders of ISIS. He had especially pointed remarks about that today in his speech. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I call President Obama and Hillary Clinton the founders of ISIS. They're the founders. In fact, I think we'll give Hillary Clinton the - you know, if you're a sports fan, most valuable player, MVP. You get the MVP award. ISIS will hand her the most valuable player award. Her only competition is Barack Obama.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MURRAY: Now, what was interesting, Ashleigh, is this was certainly the harshest attack he levied against Hillary Clinton in this speech, on a day when Hillary Clinton's talking about the economy. Now, Trump did ding her, saying that she's going to raise taxes and he is going to cut them. He talked about how he's the only person who can bring the housing market back, which, of course, is a huge issue here in Florida, but not really making the kind of full-throated argument on the economy that many in his campaign and many Republicans sort of thought he might be coming out this week and making and raising more than a few eyebrows with this claim that Hillary Clinton is one of the founders of ISIS.

BANFIELD: Yes, didn't get a lot of resonating messaging.

So I want to go to Jeff right away because I can only imagine, Jeff, that the Clinton campaign is hearing this over and over again. And while they really want to talk economy, because they are just minutes away from addressing it live, they have to react to this.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: They do and they did indeed. Jake Sullivan, who's a senior foreign policy advisor to the Clinton campaign, sent out a statement just moments after that speech in Florida, and this is what he said, Ashleigh. He said, "this is another example of Donald Trump trash talking the United States. It goes without saying that this is a false claim from a presidential candidate with an aversion to the truth and an unprecedented lack of knowledge." So this, of course, goes directly - follows the argument the Clinton campaign and Secretary Clinton has been making herself, that Donald Trump is, A, not ready for the Oval Office and, B, would be dangerous if he got there.

Now, the Clinton campaign does want to focus on the economy. That is what the basis of her speech will be here in Warren, Michigan, today, Ashleigh. But I would not be surprised if we have a response from her directly to these ISIS charges during this speech because it is a very harsh charge and it simply isn't true. Just the fact check of the matter of how ISIS was created, it just simply isn't true.

Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: We'll just have to see how much, you know, weight she gives to that at this speech and how much weight she gives to the checklist of all the economic issues she wants to highlight in her plan. I know you're going to be watching it, bringing it to the network all day long as well. We're on the countdown right now, just over an hour. Jeff Zeleny, you'll be back live with us in a little bit of time.

[12:05:03] But in the meantime, that latest Trump claim about ISIS and who actually founded ISIS brings me to an eclectic but very bright panel. Eugene Scott is CNN's politics reporter, Brian Stelter is our senior media correspondent and the host of "Reliable Sources," and Ali Velshi is our global affairs and economic analyst.

Gentlemen, welcome.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Thanks.

BANFIELD: What a day.

ALI VELSHI, GLOBAL AFFAIRS AND ECONOMIC ANALYST: Yes.

BANFIELD: I had something completely different planned for you because I really thought, when I heard the comments last night, while they were significant, they would be refuted, or mitigated -

VELSHI: Right.

BANFIELD: Or tamped down or clarified or something today because founding ISIS would be - I mean that's treason. So I want to play the original comment. I want us all to digest it for a moment. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: In fact, in many respects, you know they honor President Obama. ISIS is honoring President Obama. He is the founder of ISIS. He's the founder of ISIS, OK. He's the founder. He founded ISIS. And I would say the co-founder would be crooked Hillary Clinton. Co-founder.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, if you counted, that was six references to either being a founder or a co-founder. Look, it's exciting in those campaign halls. It's energizing when those audience members cheer and, you know, fuel your energy. And maybe Mr. Trump, who many times is not the most articulate of speakers, might have just used that word in a hyperbolic way. So that's what we wanted to know today. And then we heard Hugh Hewitt's interview this morning in which he was challenged a myriad times by Hugh Hewitt -

STELTER: Right.

BANFIELD: A conservative radio talk show host about, come on, you don't mean really founded.

BANFIELD: Right.

BANFIELD: Please, Donald Trump. Wait until you hear their back and forth. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE (voice-over): No, I mean he's the founder of ISIS. I do. He was the most valuable player. I give him the most valuable player award. I give her, too, by the way, and -

HUGH HEWITT (voice-over): But he's not sympathetic to them. He hates them. He's trying to kill them. He -

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I (INAUDIBLE). He was the founder. His - the way he got out of Iraq was the - that was the founding of ISIS.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I think it's pretty clear. I think he actually is literally saying founding. You are a politics reporter. This is the stuff you have to juggle on a regular basis.

EUGENE SCOTT, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Right.

BANFIELD: I don't aim to think we were busy, you know, finishing up with last night's reporting until we had this.

SCOTT: Sure.

BANFIELD: Where do you go with this? Like, what do you do with this? How do you report this?

SCOTT: Well, you just make it very clear that this is what he said. You know, he's been very vocal saying the media has twisted his words, that we get him and his supporter wrong. But this is what he believes, this is what he said and doubled down on.

The thing that's most interesting as to why we had that type of response from his supporters at the rally who really appreciated this, this will hurt Donald Trump in terms of getting the support of independents and the Republican establishment. He cannot win this election with just his base. He's going to need more. And these types of comments don't help him.

BANFIELD: Hugh Hewitt tried to tell him that in that interview saying -

STELTER: Right. Right.

BANFIELD: This is the kind of thing, Mr. Trump, when you say it, those who support you and are bleeding off -

VELSHI: Right. BANFIELD: Will say you're too lose with your words and it's damaging to the cause.

VELSHI: Right.

BANFIELD: Brian Stelter, he blames the media. He says, we make a bigger deal of it than it is. That's you, "Reliable Sources." What's your retort?

STELTER: Yes, you know, Donald Trump has been saying things like this for a while. In July he said Hillary Clinton, quote, "invented ISIS." That's not true and it's easy to check and confirm it's not true. If you Google and you look up Politifact and other sources, Politifact will tell you that the sources of ISIS are complex and interconnected.

VELSHI: Right.

STELTER: And while someone like Clinton or someone like Obama may share some of the blame for foreign policy decisions that led to the rise of ISIS, obviously the president's not the founder of ISIS. I think it's important we say that clearly. We look into the camera and we say it again and again.

However, we also need reliable sources among Trump supporters to say the same thing. Donald Trump doesn't like CNN right now. He's been complaining about CNN. Well, in that case, Paul Ryan -

BANFIELD: I think he tweeted about us this morning, right, that we're failing -

STELTER: Right.

BANFIELD: But I think if you actually look at our numbers -

STELTER: Not - not true.

BANFIELD: It's been a pretty - pretty good couple of years.

STELTER: Paul Ryan, conservative leaders and conservative media leaders -

BANFIELD: Yes.

VELSHI: Right.

STELTER: Should be the ones refuting what Donald Trump is saying because those people are the most trusted among Trump's base. And we're not seeing that happen in cases like this.

BANFIELD: And one thing we thought might actually get some ink or some audio today -

VELSHI: Yes.

BANFIELD: That really isn't, is the reputation of Barack Obama's full name with his middle name. VELSHI: Right. Right.

BANFIELD: And I'm going to play for you -

VELSHI: Yes.

BANFIELD: How he brought that into the same speech in which he's calling him a founder of ISIS last night. Have a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: And then I heard where the people who speak - largely they speak Russian, they want to be with Russia, OK. They want to be with Russia, maybe. And we'll find out. But this was taken during the administration of Barack Hussein Obama, OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, Ali Velshi, he puts these things out there.

VELSHI: Yes.

BANFIELD: Whether they are hyperbolic or not, they get traction, they get ink.

[12:10:01] VELSHI: Sure.

BANFIELD: Some people might hear them in an echo and that, for them, is the reality.

VELSHI: Yes, that is the danger.

BANFIELD: And then highlights (INAUDIBLE).

VELSHI: So, again, we ought not be all that surprised because on this channel and others not so long ago, Donald Trump had still not let go of his idea that Barack Hussein Obama is a Kenyan-born Muslim.

BANFIELD: Right.

VELSHI: As a Kenyan-born Muslim, I can tell you, he's not one of my people.

BANFIELD: I forgot, you really are a Kenyan-born Muslim, so you're speaking with authority.

VELSHI: I really am a Kenyan-born Muslim, right, and he wasn't at any of the meetings.

But the interesting part about - the worrisome part about saying that these are the MVPs or founders of ISIL is that it's a very dangerous organization, such that even al Qaeda thinks that they're kind of nuts. We actually have to know how to take them apart. And in order to know how to take them apart, you actually have to have a reasonably sophisticated understanding, which is hard for people to come to because it's complicated. It's really complicated out there. But you - you can't take them out if you don't know who they are.

BANFIELD: But speaking of being out there -

VELSHI: So when you go and mislead people by suggesting -

BANFIELD: You were just out there.

VELSHI: I was there with some frequency. And I was on the Syrian border and it's really complicated. When you get down on the ground, you realize that there - the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. It requires a very sophisticated global approach to taking these guys out. And this kind of talk oversimplifies about the most complicated matter we're facing.

BANFIELD: And in -

STELTER: Oversimplifies is a great word.

BANFIELD: Yes.

STELTER: I'm not a professional linguist, but that's what Trump is doing here. He's talking about a foreign policy critique, but he's also using coded language.

VELSHI: Right.

STELTER: When he mentions the middle name Hussein, he's using coded language. And all of us, as audiences for this, whether we like Trump or dislike Trump, we should recognize the code words that are being used, the dog whistles that are being blown here.

VELSHI: That's right.

STELTER: So the - so Donald Trump, I mean we talk a lot about his strategies of doing this, but he may not be the only one. It might just be that Gary Johnson is seeing that this is an effective strategy against Hillary Clinton. This is what Gary Johnson had to say regarding this founding of ISIS comment that Donald Trump made. This was just this morning, take a look, on MSNBC.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is Hillary the founder of ISIS, Obama the founder of ISIS?

GARY JOHNSON, LIBERTARIAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Unintentionally.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Unintentionally. So you would agree it's a policy issues, it's their policies that led to the rise of ISIS. Is that what you're saying?

JOHNSON: Yes. And it wasn't intentional, but you can't make it up, when they go in and they support the opposition in Libya and Syria and the opposition is aligned with ISIS and we arm the opposition and they lose those arms to ISIS unintentionally.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So is this a case, Eugene, of some infectious campaigning, an effect that he's having on other people in the race?

SCOTT: I think this is the case of two things with Gary Johnson and with Donald Trump. We are in a post fact check culture in this election. And what we put out, regardless of how much we say that this is not what the evidence and the intelligence supports, a lot of his supporters will not believe us. They - because he's created the system of mistrust in the media, even though we have made it very clear that what he said is not actually true.

BANFIELD: When you say it's -

STELTER: We (INAUDIBLE) is whether it's a post fact check culture.

BANFIELD: Yes.

STELTER: You all at home get to decide if we are in a post fact check culture.

VELSHI: Right. You could actually just Google ISIS - ISIS founder and you'll see Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and a lot of information and a lot of little blue links to every other piece of information.

BANFIELD: Yes.

VELSHI: It is - it's (INAUDIBLE) -

STELTER: President Obama is prosecuting a drone war against ISIS, right?

VELSHI: Right. Right. Right.

STELTER: We're prosecuting a war against ISIS. And I almost feel like viewers at home don't recognize that because we don't see it every day.

VELSHI: Right.

STELTER: We don't see the pictures every day. This is mostly a secret war that's being prosecuted against these terrorists. But that's what the president does every day.

VELSHI: Yes.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you guys about this post fact check coverage, because you are all reporters in a very new landscape. I, myself, was after a long day at this office, five hours on my iPhone doing e-mail last night. And I am upwards of 600 to 800 a day. And it's exhausting and sometimes it's complicated, confusing and I don't even know what the lead is any more. I'm wondering what this means to live in this post fact check. Is it too much too fast? We can't even keep up.

SCOTT: Well, if you want to keep up, you can keep up. If you desire truth, if you desire accuracy, you can. But if you've made up in your mind that conspiracy theories are what you're going to buy into and that you're going to disagree with CNN no matter what we say, you get away with things like this.

BANFIELD: Does your work not matter?

SCOTT: It matters to those who want to know the truth and facts in this election. For those who want to buy into what is newsy and what leads to applauses, we're not worthy.

BANFIELD: So, Brian, can I just ask you, I have to wrap this up, but it concerns me that people are so in their echo chambers that media and journalism, which has been such a cornerstone of this country, is kind of becoming irrelevant to them. Is it possible, just possible, that this insane way that Donald Trump can throw something out there like, "the president founded ISIS," and it gets a little sticky, it gets a little traction -

STELTER: Yes.

BANFIELD: Is it possible that some of your good work might get the same kind of traction and get a little sticky and actually land out there?

STELTER: Certainly. The way to refute a respond to this kind of misinformation is with the facts, right? The solution is more information, not less information. We shouldn't withhold from the audience what's happening. We should put more good information out into the world.

[12:15:03] Sometimes to be provocative, to be fiery about this, will help get the right information out. Sometimes journalists make mistakes, right? We are not - we're not error proof. We make mistakes. But, generally, my experience with journalists, they try really hard to get to the truth, to get to the reality. That's what you have to keep doing. Ali, is that your experience?

VELSHI: Yes, no, I completely agree. We just have to keep doing it and do it better, work harder and hope that more people pick up on this kind of stuff.

BANFIELD: (INAUDIBLE) -

STELTER: A not let this be a post fact check culture.

BANFIELD: I appreciate all three of you. Thank you so much, Brian, Eugene, Ali, as always.

SCOTT: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Coming up next, while Trump's busy attacking Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama today, maybe he should keep an eye out for opponents in his own party. Lots happening on the trail to talk about with our political panel coming up.

And you can watch LEGAL VIEW any time, cnn.com/go, the place to go. You can also find me on the Twitter @cnnashleigh and check out FaceBook as well.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Got live pictures from the Hillary Clinton rally in Warren, Michigan. And she's expected to take to those live mikes within an hour, folks. We've got live coverage ready to go. It's a big day for her. This is her day where she's going to outline a lot more about her economic plan. Family first is effectively the narrative that she wants you to walk away with after this speech. This coming just four days after Donald Trump laid out his economic plan, and his narrative was America first. It will be fascinating to see how much crossover, how much similarity and how different they are going to be, these two different addresses. Those live comments coming at you just as soon as that live mike fires up.

[12:20:24] Donald Trump and the Republican National Committee, they do need each other pretty badly, but they can't seem to stop butting heads over how to run the race for president. We're still learning a lot - we're still waiting to learn a lot more, but at the same time getting drips and drabs, though, about why at least eight RNC staffers quit over the past few weeks. Some senior people, too. The deputy press secretary and the committee spokesman. The details are unclear, but across the board they say it is the discomfort that they're feeling over the nomination of Donald Trump for president.

There's that out there, and then there's also Donald Trump hammering away at Hillary Clinton, hard, in fact, on the released e-mails that her critics say show corruption during her years as secretary of state.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: But a couple of very bad ones came out. And it's called pay for play. And some of these were really, really bad and illegal. If it's true, it's illegal. You're paying and you're getting things. But it came out to her people, pay for play. And very big stories today. The problem is, it will be big stories for about two minutes and then they're going to drop it because the media is so totally dishonest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, as for the three debates that are scheduled to put Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton on the same stage together, three times, imagine the television. Trump adviser and former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani said on this network, CNN, this morning, you betcha, that's going to happen. Trump fully intending to be there for all three of those debates after they iron out a few logistical details. I wish I knew what they were, but I'm sure we will all know very soon.

Mark Preston working away, scribbling away, calling his sources to find out what they are, our political executive editor is here. Also political analyst John Avlon, who also has his staff at "The Daily Beast" scribbling away, phoning, calling to get any kind of leaks you can.

JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Trying (ph).

BANFIELD: So the debate issue, Mark, let me start with you. You don't skip a presidential debate. And there are only three of them. This is not the same as the, you know, as the primaries. He skipped one of those. The effect wasn't drastic, clearly, he's the nominee. Was it ever really going to be a question as to whether he would show up for these debates?

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICAL EXECUTIVE EDITOR: Well, first of all, I think that with Donald Trump there is always a question about him. He's very unpredictable. He's not our average candidate. And he certainly doesn't follow any kind of traditional path towards the nomination.

Having said that, though, there are only a couple times in a campaign that you can actually reset. That's when you win the nomination. The second time is when you formally accept the nomination at the convention. You saw that in Cleveland. And then during these debates will just - will just happen, you know, six weeks before voters actually head to the polls. We only need to go back to 2012 and look at Mitt Romney, who had a very good debate performance against Barack Obama. At that time, Barack Obama was leading in the polls and we saw a shift. It was a minor shift at that time, but it was an opportunity for Mitt Romney to try to sell himself to the American people. He just wasn't able to close the deal in the end.

BANFIELD: Well, we have a couple of polls that are showing Hillary Clinton way ahead in a state - you know, Wisconsin, it's a - you know, it's a manufacturing state. It is the kind of place that should be really, really good for Donald Trump. And there's a big spread between the two of them. You could see those numbers there, among registered voters, 46-36 for Hillary Clinton. And then among likely voters, slightly different and wider. The gap is better for Hillary Clinton, fifty-two percent of likely voters, you know, plan to vote for Hillary Clinton, 37 for Donald Trump.

While I'd like you to weigh in on that, Mark, I also want to get John Avlon to weigh in on that because we - we love polls and sometimes we think they are so indicative of the way things are going to go and then you have sort of Hillary Clinton's Michigan, which tells us that we're -

AVLON: Right.

BANFIELD: We can be very wrong. That's a big gap, though.

AVLON: Yes, especially among likely voters. Especially because it's Wisconsin and there are two things you need to keep in mind. First of all, this is home turf for the RNC, for Reince Priebus, for Paul Ryan. They put a lot of effort over the years into trying to turn Wisconsin into a Republican state. It hasn't worked. Even with Paul Ryan on the ticket with Mitt Romney, they narrowly lost.

But this gap is massive. And if both - if Donald Trump is trying to bet on appealing to a new heretofore untapped white working class voter, in the Midwest in particular, Wisconsin should be looking good. It's not. Instead, he's playing defense in states they should be coasting in. Arizona. Missouri.

[12:25:03] BANFIELD: Georgia.

AVLON: Some polls, Kansas. Georgia, which is huge. So that's an indication of just the trend not being Donald Trump's friend in this election right now. And that's why there's such - there's such deep friction between him and the RNC.

BANFIELD: And why not take these moments on television to go after that kind of a voter, as opposed to sort of freelance and sort of - to throw these, you know, polemics out there.

AVLON: Oh, you're using reason again, Ashleigh. Why would you do that at this stage of the election?

BANFIELD: Oh, crazy media. It's the crazy media.

AVLON: You. Yes, I mean, look, this candidate believes - he listens to himself. He shoots from the hip. It's worked for him to win the nomination. But there's the fundamental problem that I think not only Donald Trump but the party needs to reflect, which is that the constituency you appeal to, to win the Republican nation, is less and less representative of the nation at large in a general election. So those strategies and tactics don't work. What a candidate needs to be doing is building beyond the base right now. Instead, Donald Trump seems to be intent on doing the opposite.

BANFIELD: All right, guys, I have to wrap it there. Thank you both. Appreciate it. Going to have you back. The plot thickens.

It is really hard to run a campaign when you have to worry about every single thing you say, and then every single thing that you write. And as bad as that Democratic Party's e-mail hack was, it could be about to get a lot worse. Why the Democrats are worried about the possibility of another damaging document dump. And when I say dump, big dump, coming up.

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