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Report: Brazil Police say U.S. Swimmers Not Robbed; Police say U.S. Swimmers Should Apologize to City of Rio de Janeiro. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired August 18, 2016 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:30:00] FERNANDO VELOSO, CHIEF OF POLICE, RIO DE JANEIRO (through translator): People, they have to follow some kind of behavior that at least should be proper. But they are people. They can make mistakes. Because probably they were under alcoholic beverage or anything like this. The excuses that they need to provide, the apology in the way is not to the police, but really to the city of Rio de Janeiro that had its name tainted by a very unreal or untruthful version.

And I think it would be very noble for them to say that, you know, to really provide their apologies to the city of Rio.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (OFF-MIKE)

VELOSO: No, no, we didn't have any opportunity, so I don't know if this was done when we left. So as of now I don't have this answer.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (OFF-MIKE)

VELOSO: Yes, yes. We heard about that, about this command and control center. We are doing the same and follow the same procedure that we are doing in this particular case. You said Rio is a violent city. Well, huge cities, you know, metropolitan centers, they have violence in their daily life. Rio does have that. It's true.

But what's different is how we face and how we overcome the violence and the problems that we face here. What we cannot accept that responsibility for the public security or safety is not only for the police. For everyone. Also for the victim. If the victim doesn't bring that information to the police, might potentially be contributing to the lack of safety and security.

So he not only doesn't have the right to request and demand the answer from the federal government or the state government through the police or any other institution, but also has the duty to do what he needs to say. Because when we have people that don't do that, you're not going to be contributing to safety and security in the city. Every citizen, either from Brazil or any other country, has the right to do that but also has the duty to bring that information to the police. Every citizen.

But here in Rio de Janeiro, I don't know if you know, some people can register or report any incidents using the internet. So the police put all this effort to create this kind of, too. We don't have any problem to have more registers. So in the case of the British team, we are working on this case.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: In the beginning of the interview probably they were afraid when they saw the security guard. You are also saying that this is being investigated. I think you cannot even configure how the crime -- they created, they fabricated a story. Do you have any doubts against, towards that?

VELOSO: The question is -- the issue is that's not my certainties or doubts that I have over my colleague. What we have on the criminal investigation procedure, I have my private conviction but I'm not going to share with you all. During our investigation criminal procedure, we can provide -- we have evidence, elements, that show, that demonstrate, that it is very, very improbable that a normal person can consider that as the situation that the incident as a robbery situation.

Surveillance video image doesn't demonstrate that, even in the use of the weapon was utilized in a way to continue to restrain them and we also have a witness that -- their interpreter, that interpreted everything for them. Unless we disregard this interpreter what he said in creating all this story as we do that.

And we have a third person that has no interest at all that provides interpretation, that say you have to pay here for what you broke, for the damage. And one of the athletes says and gave the money, deliberately gave the money for the damage they created. So that will probably be the final conclusion of our investigation. But we need to -- we have to wait.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (OFF-MIKE)

VELOSO: Surveillance video image will be analyzed by experts from the scientific and technical police department. This final analysis will confirm whether the surveillance video image really shows exactly what was there and seeing if it was added before or after. This is kind of work that experts will do. But with this surveillance video images are not with the police department yet. So it will take time.

[15:35:00] UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (OFF-MIKE)

VELOSO: When the gun -- I believe they were outside the taxi. No I think they were outside the taxi when one of security guards pointed the gun at them.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (OFF-MIKE)

VELOSO: Well, there is no issues with the weapon with the security guard. I didn't understand your question about the way -- when they left the gas station. Well, they left in the taxi. We have already talked about that. Yes. The athletes -- they wanted the taxi driver to leave the gas station but the taxi driver stayed because the security guards told them -- told him to stay right there.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (OFF-MIKE)

VELOSO: Well, the institution that provides statistics data about the crimes that occur in Rio, I have this figure but I cannot provide you right now. We will give you that statistic data that you are requesting, but we don't have it right now.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (OFF-MIKE)

VELOSO: The security guards here are police officers -- do you understand Portuguese, right? One of the requests that we had is that the identity of the security guards should be kept private because the fear for retaliation. So their identities will not be shared for the media. We will not share or disseminate their names, their identities, in order to preserve these security guards. They are indeed police officers of the state of Rio de Janeiro. I'm not going to tell anything more about that.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you believe there was any kind of excess by the security guards?

VELOSO: Listen. Please. You have to understand what is going on. We are just -- this is all speculation. As of now, we don't have anything that could say there was any kind of excess abused by one of the security guards, even by the athletes. They understand that with being that the security guard used the weapon just to contain and restrain one of their colleagues when he was very angry.

So, listen, we are not going to speculate about that. Any behavior, if it is done in an illegal manner, they will be eventually charged. But I'm not going to speculate right now. You know? I think we should not be wasting our time here speculating about those kind of things.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (OFF-MIKE)

VELOSO: I think he left Brazil on August 15th.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (OFF-MIKE)

[15:40:00] VELOSO: In theory, again, any damage, crime, it's penal action crime depends on the person who was damaged. So it was up to the owner of the gas station to proceed with that. If the owner of the gas station says, no, I don't want any more confusion here in my gas station, the police cannot proceed with that penal action.

So there's no issue, no problem the person could come to an agreement. If there is no physical altercations, if the one person who was damaged said it's OK, the government cannot intervene because the law understands that if there was no physical altercation, that is fine.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (OFF-MIKE)

VELOSO: We have already answered this question.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Who are the two athletes who stayed with those two girls and the age of the girls? If they were dating?

VELOSO: No, we don't know. We don't have this information. We have to read the statement of that taxi driver who drove those two girls. I don't think this is something we can -- this kind of information that we can provide.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (OFF-MIKE)

VELOSO: This is a very difficult question. I think you -- this is a question that you should ask to a psychologist. Well, in our investigation we don't have this answer. What could -- why did he do that. Probably this was to justify or -- we don't know. We don't know exactly. It might be important for our investigation to a certain point, but we don't have this answer right now.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (OFF-MIKE)

BALDWIN: OK. So we're going to pull away from this. They've been going on for a little bit here but let me just give you my take-away from listening to the police chief there in Rio both in tourism and civil police.

Number one very clearly police are saying Ryan Lochte and friends were not robbed, they were not victims. He based this on eyewitnesses, taxi cab driver, attendants at this gas station, security guards all detailing these guys showing up in it the early morning hours, vandalizing this gas station bathroom, shattering the mirror, things like that.

At some point he describes these guys offering up some cash. $20 in U.S. plus I think it was 100 Real which is about $50 in cash they offer up for the damage. And they want to leave the gas station. The gas station saying, no, you need to stay, we want police to show up.

The other issue is whether or not Ryan Lochte was saying he was held up at gunpoint.

Sounds like from police there was a weapon involved from the security guard at the gas station. So let's work with that. Danny Cevallos sitting next to me, our lawyer. What did you think of that whole thing?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's getting strange and stranger by the minute. I mean what I took away from that press conference was this. They're essentially saying, the authorities, these Olympians were not robbed but, somebody may have come up to them with a firearm and demanded money.

BALDWIN: Possible extortion? They said, perhaps.

CEVALLOS: Well, that's robbery here in the United States. Gun plus demand for money is robbery, even if you think you have some civil right to that money. If somebody wrecked your bathroom, I get it. We have civil ways of getting that money back. Typically, here in the United States, one of the options that would not be sanctioned by your local police is, yes, he owed me $20 so I went over to his house with a gun and demanded that he sit down on the ground, pull out his wallet and peel off wads of money.

It seems very strange right now because the video as it is seems to back up the story that for some reason, these guys who were acting boorish and aggressive, suddenly became very cowed and very demure and sat down on a sidewalk, and that there may have been a firearm involved.

[15:45:00] I'm not defending boorish, obnoxious frat guy behavior, I'm not. These guys may have been acting horribly but it seems a little inconsistent that Brazilian authorities are suggesting that it is impossible a robbery occurred, but conceding that somebody may have used a firearm to extract money from someone's person.

BALDWIN: Well said. Well said. Christine Brennan, let me go to you in Rio. You've been listening to all of this. You said if in fact Ryan Lochte falsified the story he should be banned for life from swimming. What was your take-away from that news conference?

CHRISTINE BRENNAN, CNN SPORTS ANALYST: Well what a mess. I think there is more questions than answers. Obviously we want to start hearing from some of these swimmers, Brooke. So there is a long way to go. I do think that if the story is true, if they trashed a bathroom, if they behaved horribly, again, covering all these Olympics, I remember in Seoul, in 1988, there were two U.S. swimmers who stole a mask from a hotel lobby and they were banned from the sport for 18 months.

This is the Olympics. This is not the NFL. This is not major league baseball. It is why we love the Olympics. It is why I love covering the Olympic games. I know I am sounding a little like mom and pop and the old days here, Brooke --

BALDWIN: No, I'm with you. It had been a dream of mine to cover the Olympics. I agree with you 100%.

BRENNAN: Right. And we expect more of Olympians. That's why they get the toughest drug testing in the world. 365 days, knock on the door -- you would have to produce a sample. That's what they do. So I think there is a long way to go here. It is really hard to say definitively.

But if what we're hearing is true, and they trashed a bathroom, behaved horribly, a gun coming up with a security guard, that is an issue, absolutely. We need to find out for sure. But there is no doubt in my mind that Ryan Lochte clearly -- this isn't the story he told us a few days ago. And so that alone, the lying, at a time like this, when you are representing the United States, in the Olympic games, I think it is still very problematic for Ryan Lochte.

BALDWIN: Mark Geragos, another voice. You have this picture, according to the cops, drunk, vandalizing, threw some cash down and wanted to bounce, versus also a firearm being involved, to potential extortion on behalf of this security guard. What do you say?

MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, contrary to your previous guest, who I love and adore, I will come in here and defend them. I don't necessarily say that it's boorish behavior or anything else. But something does not smell right here and I'm not talking about the trashing of the bathroom. The fact that there was a firearm there, the fact that they're down

playing that, and apparently the defacing of the bathroom is the major crime here, tells you all you need to know. It looks to me, at least, like Brazil is spinning this because they didn't like the story in the first place. And that's apparently what Ryan's lawyer is indicating as well.

Now Ryan's lawyer, if he's got -- he's talked to his client probably has a good idea of what actually transpired. It may not hue to the first story, but before we start jumping on this boorish behavior, these guys must have done it, they were lying bandwagon, remember, it is a completely different system down there.

You have a judge who is an inquisitor. He is not an impartial umpire calling balls and strikes. This is somebody who is leading an investigation. This is somebody in a country that has got a crime problem to begin with that they're trying to be very protective of. I would say before we all jump on this the boorish Americans or the ugly Americans overseas, let's step back and wait until we actually have some facts.

BALDWIN: Appreciate that. That's why I wanted to hear from you. I want all of you to stand by. We now have our senior international correspondent Nick Paton Walsh who is now live there at the gas station, the scene of -- I don't even know what you want to call it. Crime? No crime? Nick Paton Walsh, tell me what happened.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I call it the scene of the mess really, Brooke. It is extraordinary here how very pedestrian and daily life this scene is. It is a gas station. Ten minutes away also from the Olympic venues down the road. You may be familiar with this.

It is kind of the opening scene of a CCTV video which shows the swimmers, according to Brazilian officials, heading up and down this alley way here.

[15:50:00] Now stick with me because this is the important point. It is just along this wall, probably a poster similar to this, where the alleged vandalism occurred, where this poster was apparently torn down. And then we are hearing from people around here that possibly the alleged urinating happened down there. All of that a bit odd.

We are a matter of meters away from the actual toilets here themselves. The doors on some of those in particular are not in particularly good shape. Not sure if that is related to what happened here that night. This is a busy gas station here in the heart of Rio. So here is where the rest of the CCTV plays out.

Here, the explanation that authorities have given so far holds some water and is married quite well with the CCTV. The men after gathering the attention of the gas station officials, they come through here, they go to the wrong taxi in initially, and then move over here to where their taxi was parked. They get in and you see a man in black approach the driver. Lean in the car, have a conversation, that may be where the firearm was pointed at the swimmers.

Obviously they had just seen these men damage part of the bathroom here at 6:00 in the morning. According to the police chief, they were aggressive and drunk. His justification is well, if you are security guard in that situation you might well use a firearm there.

And the police accept some sort of financial transaction was involved in resolving the situation, so when the police got here, charges were not pressed. Once again I should point out we don't have a current explanation or version of events from Mr. Lochte or the three other when with him.

We know that they have been talking to police, that is Mr. Bentz and Mr. Conger in the previous hour or so at a police station. But still as of yet today Mr. Lochte's attorney was very clear to point out that they stick by their original version of events and have no cooperated with anybody seeking to get their side of the story.

But as now we haven't heard from them and there is another element to this, Brooke. Which I think is interesting and worth paying attention to. You have to wonder exactly -- I'm going to just move out of the way of a family car here.

You have to ask the question yourself when did the U.S. Olympic Committee become aware there may have been a contrasting version of events to Mr. Lochte's very clear story to NBC that he was held with a firearm to his temple, on the ground by armed robbers who took away some of his possessions but left him with his cell phone.

I asked that question of them, and they said they have given the statements they want to so far. If they learned about it earlier on, when some of the first doubts had emerged in rumors around here in Rio on Monday, well happened until yesterday when the court order came out, or if they learned later, is it possible they feel the athletes they represent were not being open enough with them.

That is something the USOC will have to answer in the days ahead. As of now, we're hearing a detailed version of events backed up by CCTV from Brazilian officials. We have not heard the other side of the story of the four U.S. swimmers.

Two of them with police, may have not just left. James Feigen somewhere in Brazil, it is unclear if he is being questioned again. Because him and Mr. Lochte's original testimony to the police which aroused suspicions of a judge who issued that search and seizure warrant here.

But my, oh my, how we have gone from one very bad story for the image of Brazil, a high profile athlete held at gunpoint and robbed, to this one here which I have to say if true doesn't look very good for U.S. athletes.

BALDWIN: Did you ever think in covering the Olympics you would be sent to the gas station to get a tick tock of the mess that occurred in the middle of the night. Thank you so much.

WALSH: Not spending quite so much time --

BALDWIN: Exactly. Thank you so much --

WALSH: Discussing three hours maybe, one hour maybe of the swimmer's Saturday night.

BALDWIN: It's extraordinary. Drew Rosenhaus is sports agent. Let me ask you, you have been listening to all of this. I'm even more confused than ever. Of everything, but from a future of swimmers perspective, and we know Lochte may or may not be banned. Brennan is saying he should be if in fact he falsified the statement. What about the other three guys?

DREW ROSENHAUS, SPORTS AGENT: This is a huge impact on Lochte because he is the marketable one. From an agent's perspective, whatever he did this would cost him all of the money he would make in endorsements, is now out the window. So this is sad for him regardless it will hit him in the wallet hard.

He was going to get some outstanding endorsements and that's where these guys really make their money. They don't get paid professionally for swimming meets and what not. It's all in the commercials and he is one of the most marketable guys in the business. That's why he has the white hair and everything else, he is a character, you know? He is unique as a swimmer.

[15:55:00] Behind Phelps, he would have been the swimmer to get the most marketing dollars. That's out the window now.

BALDWIN: What would you if you were -- do we still have him?

I hate when that happens. Art Roderick, let me go to you. Let's go to the potential criminality on all of this. Walk through the allegations at that gas station. We're talking vandalism, false testimony, potentially, do you think an apology would be enough?

ART RODERICK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think listening to the press conference, there was translation issues going on. One of the things I picked up was that this was not an arrest-able offense, which is key. That is very important. We're not investigating a homicide here. We're investigating a vandalism. And a possible cover up. And as we know from history cover ups a lot of times are worse than the actual crime itself.

There was a handgun used. We are talking about Brazil we are not talking about the U.S. And I think the Brazilian chief basically said he used it to control the individuals. We don't do that here in the U.S.

So possibly could have Lochte, with a language issue, with a language barrier going on, could he have perceived it as a possible extortion issue? It very well could be. I think this is going to come down to semantics and is there enough on each side to maybe cancel this out. But I think an apology would go a long ways.

BALDWIN: Laura Coates, CNN legal analyst that is my question to you. If they were to offer up and apology, do you think that would be enough to make this go away?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think I sense a diplomatic issue. This comes down to Brooke, whether you have seen "Locked Up and Abroad" or not. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Everyone is making a lot of issues about what the Brazilians do. And whether or not they can have a gun present for a security guard and what not, the key for Lochte and the other swimmers that they were not in their own home country, they have to abide by the other laws of the other country. And unlike what I think was happening here, a little bit of entitlement and throw many at the problem and try to get out of it.

They actually had to abide by the laws. But I think ultimately what Art said is key, this is not really an arrest-able offense, and what Rio is trying to do really is to restore their credibility as a place that was able to handle the Olympics and could make traveling safe. An apology will go a long way. This is an issue of diplomacy not of criminality at this point.

BALDWIN: Mark Geragos, how would you advise Lochte if he was your client right now here in the states?

GERAGOS: First of all, I would probably tell everybody to take a time-out, if Lochte, except for a second whatever this guy is saying in the press conference is true. Except that they urinated on a door, except they ripped down a poster. OK.

Then he gets into a cab, someone sticks a gun in your face when you are in the cab, in a foreign country. You don't know that that relates to you taking a urinating on a door. You don't know that that is connected. And this isn't an extortion, even under Brazilian law that is robbery.

You don't get to negotiating a deal of some kind, say to somebody, OK, I have a gun in your face, pay me I will make it go away and I won't press charges. That is a robbery that isn't just extortion, that is a robbery which is what he said happened to him.

So I would just tell him I mean obviously the one problem he's got is he initially said that they pulled over the cab, that they thought it was the police they thought it was someone else impersonating police, pulling over the cab. That can still be massaged or may be massaged by his understanding.

The Brazilians could be right, he could be doing these things, and Lochte could have been right that he didn't, in real time, understand that the guy sticking a gun in his face had anything to do with the damages being done. They could have felt they were being robbed.

BALDWIN: Drew Rosenhaus, let's say Lochte were your client, what advice would you give him right now?

ROSENHAUS: First of all, I want to know what truth is. And if the truth wasn't that bad he ought to come clean. He ought to just come clean as long as it is not horrible. That is better than the game he is playing right now. The second thing is I do like the idea of the apology. That is a good move. Anything he can do right now to clean up his image is going to be essential for him. As an agent, we are always thinking about how this affects our client, I don't think legally that is big issue for him right now. As much as it is financially.

[16:00:00] BALDWIN: OK. Drew, Mark, Danny, Nick, everyone else, what a story, this is so not the end.