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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Swimmers Robbery Claim; Clinton Meets with Law Enforcement Leaders; Trump Campaign Changes. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired August 18, 2016 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:10] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

One of the strangest stories coming out of the Olympics is only getting more bizarre. Three USA swimmers are expected to speak with Brazilian police today. They plan to discuss their claim that they, along with teammate Ryan Lochte, were grabbed at gunpoint. A short while ago, the U.S. Olympic Committee sent out a statement about all of this saying, "the three U.S. Olympic swimmers (Gunnar Bentz, Jack Conger and James Feigen), are cooperating with authorities and in the process of scheduling a time and place today to provide further statements to the Brazilian authorities. All are represented by counsel and being appropriately supported by the USOC and the U.S. Consulate in Rio."

This controversy is being sparked by what local authorities say were inconsistencies in the athletes' accounts of what went on the night of this so-called incident. Concerns over their stories prompted police to pull the swimmers, Jack Conger and Gunnar Bentz, right off of the airline they were sitting on. That flight was bound from Rio to the U.S. They did not fly.

Conger and Bentz have been ordered not to leave the country of Brazil until they provide testimony to investigators. Fellow teammate James Feigen also plans to speak with officials. In the meantime, Lochte is already back in the United States, but now even his story is under scrutiny, too.

Just take a listen to what Lochte told NBC News originally and then hear what NBC's Matt Lauer says about his more recent conversation with the swimmer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN LOCHTE, U.S. OLYMPIC SWIMMER: They told the other swimmers to get down on the ground. They got down on the ground. I refused. I was like, we didn't do anything wrong, so I'm not getting down on the ground. And then the guy pulled out his gun, he cocked it, put it to my forehead and he said, get down. And I was like - I put my hands up. I was like, whatever.

MATT LAUER, ANCHOR, "TODAY" SHOW: When he talked to me tonight, he said that's when the guy pointed the gun in my direction and cocked it. And I pointedly said to him, you had said before it was placed on your forehead and cocked. He said, no, that's not exactly what happened. And I think he feels it was more of a traumatic mischaracterization.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I want to get more details now from CNN's Nick Paton Walsh, who is reporting live in Rio right now. And also with me, CNN legal analyst Danny Cevallos and CNN Money sports business reporter Ahiza Garcia.

First - first to you, Nick. Where does this story stand right now? Where are these swimmers in the process of telling whatever their most recent version of the story is going to be?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Bentz and conger appear to be on their way to the police station. That will be the first time they give evidence to police. But this is moving very quickly, Ashleigh, with the Brazilian media taking a march (ph) on this. It's been, frankly, an insult to their image, to some degree, and there is a very interesting report coming out from the Brazilian daily "O Globo" which sites the owner of a gas station near where this supposed robbery had occurred. It doesn't name him. But this man suggests, in fact, the athletes went there and urinated on or near that particular gas station and were involved in an act of vandalism upon it. Quite staggering to suggest that this individual had a completely different recollection of events than these American four athletes.

Now, I should point out, we have not spoken again to their legal representation to address these particular claims, but this is part of the information war we're seeing right now. and it's sort of backed up by what we've been hearing directly from officials too. A source close to the investigation has said that they are in some doubt as to whether a robbery actually took place. And, of course, when we first herd from the judge yesterday with this court document demanding the search and seizure from Mr. Lochte and Mr. Feigen, it was clear that they potentially were assessing whether or not a false police report had been filed. Now we have this startling information from the "O Globo" newspaper. Quite a reputable big one here in Brazil in which they go on to actually quote the owner as saying they have images, presumably on CCTV, of an athlete in a state of, shall we say, nudity from behind, pulling up his pants. They asked them to use the bathroom, they go on to say, but they urinate on the side of the gas station on the wall. They didn't obey the sign. They didn't use the toilet. It was pure vandalism, the owner says.

I should repeat, we haven't heard the story - side of the story recently from those particular athletes. But this is fast becoming less of a mystery, I think it's fair to say. A lot of suspicion from the Brazilian authorities, kind of from the beginning, confusion initially from the athletes when they first - reports came out they were denied by the IOC then confirmed by Mr. Lochte in that clip you saw there with NBC.

[12:05:04] We've gone up and down with how this (INAUDIBLE) has unfolded, but central to it all has been the broad suspicion many Brazilians have had when they heard the testimony from Mr. Lochte that he escaped from the armed robbery still with his cell phone and they saw the CCTV of them coming home to the Olympic village sill in possession of many high value items, the question really was, well, how did you escape from an armed robbery with all that because cell phones are often the target of such petty criminals? So that aroused Brazilian suspicions, particularly in the police a spokesperson said to us and now we're starting to see this, at this stage perhaps still information more (ph), but we get to hear the official account from Brazilian authorities, what they think went on, all the response from the athletes themselves, but, my, oh, my, what a mess.

BANFIELD: I mean, without question, this is just becoming more bizarre by the moment.

Hang tight, if you could, Nick, for a moment. I just want to find out what could be in store.

Danny, look, you can't make false statements to anybody here in the United States and it's serious. You know, you can land yourself behind bars if you do that sort of thing. What's the story in Brazil?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: In Brazil, false communication carries with it a - that's false communication of a police report, carries with it a potential sentence of, as I understand it, three years. Back here in the U.S., we have similar federal crimes, lying to an FBI agent or other law enforcement can get you up to five years. And that's a critical analysis when talking about extradition.

First, you look to the treaty and the treaty must list or define the crimes that are called extraditable. And these are usually very general listings of crimes. And it really depends on what Brazil chooses to charge any defendant with.

Then you go back to the United States, and a court here would look at not only whether or not it's one of the extraditable crimes, but whether or not both countries punish it by up to more than a year. So it's a very sort of lucy-goosey analysis under treaties. And, really, when it comes down to it, treaties are inherently political, more so than legal, because it really comes down to the then state of existing political affairs. Extradition is largely a political creation and less a legal one sometimes.

BANFIELD: Well, and we're going to talk about the political aspects of all of this in a moment because this is just a massive, awful story that is overshadows the medal count and the winnings and what should be getting on the news today. And I'm sure that the folks in Rio are livid about that.

About extradition, just quickly, we have often not extradited or fought extradition for crimes that are far more serious than that. The chances that there would be any kind of extradition, for request and actual granting for Ryan Lochte, pretty minimal. But we do have two guys there. There's still two guys who want to come back who don't have their passports right now.

CEVALLOS: This is what makes this so complicated because normally when you're talking about extradition, you're talking about one defendant in either one country or the other. In this case - BANFIELD: They're split.

CEVALLOS: We have a split, right? And it would be very awkward for the State Department to say to Brazil, you know what, no thanks, I don't think we're going to give you Lochte, and then turn around and in the same breath say, by the way, can we have those other two guys back?

BANFIELD: Yes.

CEVALLOS: I don't think that would go over very well politically. So, in a way, both sides could be at an international detente when it comes to extradition.

BANFIELD: Yes. well, and I'm sure there's nothing happy about that detente either.

Ahiza, just quickly about the - the idea of this from a sports business perspective, when Olympians come home they celebrate in all sorts of ways, like deals and endorsements and they start to make a lot of the money that, you know, they've worked four to eight years for, maybe sometimes more. What could possibly happen in that respect if this story turns out to be true?

AHIZA GARCIA, CNN MONEY SPORTS BUSINESS REPORTER: Well, it could have a big impact. But just right off the bat, he went into Rio - Lochte went into Rio with fewer sponsors than he had in London, Gatorade, Nissan, for example. So in that aspect he has a little bit less to lose.

That being said, one of the things that advertisers say all the time, we look at the total package. So, you know, how is this person off the field, or in this case out of the pool? What image do they project? What is their brand? So in that - going - looking forward into Tokyo 2020, or even if he retires, kind of, what is his legacy going to be and how does this impact how he's able to market himself based on, you know, his performance in the water but also now this huge potential scandal.

But that being said, one thing that advertisers do like - everyone loves a comeback story. So if he, you know, in the case of Michael Phelps, for example, he showed retribution, he went to rehab, he appeared apologetic. So depending on, you know, what comes out with the story and also Lochte's response could have a huge implication for his marketability.

BANFIELD: Wow. I mean it's hard to overcome lying. Comebacks are one thing if you make a misstep or you have, you know, some incident, but lying is a really tough one.

Ahiza, thank you for that.

I want to talk a little bit more with an expert in U.S. Olympic Committee affairs, and that is CNN Sports analyst Christine Brennan, who's live down in Rio as well.

Christine, I've been watching you report since the beginnings of this very strange tale began to unravel and I wanted to get your perspective from the 30,000 foot view of politically what this is like for the Brazilians. We've spoke a little bit about the sports marketing aspect, the loss and the potential for, you know, for Ryan Lochte and the others in endorsements. But there's a big political issue here and there's a big sort of global message. Take me there and tell me where that's being sort of handled.

[12:10:23] CHRISTINE BRENNAN, CNN SPORTS ANALYST: Ashleigh, that's a great point because as you take that macro view, as you said, this is about an Olympics that was the most discussed games and the most controversial Olympics in the months leading to the Rio games. Everyone knows - all of the viewers know, from Zika to water pollution to street crime, to whether they have the infrastructure, everything that could possibly - the laundry list of issues for Rio.

So, here we are. The games are going along pretty well. There was the green water. There was a bus being shot at or rocks being thrown at it. But, otherwise, other than that, it was a pretty good first week. And then you have an American, Ryan Lochte, one of the most famous American athletes here, 32 years old, a veteran, saying that he had a gun put to his head in the early morning hours of Sunday, after the swimming ended, as he was on a night on the town with three other swimmers. That put these games on edge, Ashleigh, in a way that I had not seen before. And now everyone's wondering, is it all coming true? There it is. There's the gun to the head. There's the issue. We were all right all along about Rio and its problems.

Now, as the reporting from "O Globo" here locally is saying that it was all made up. We're working on that at "USA Today." Obviously CNN's working on it as well. Now that we're hearing that it's - it's - "O Globo" is reporting that was not the case, my goodness, what a turn of events. Ryan Lochte making something up, if that is true, if this reporting is true, holy smokes. To me it elevates it, of all the Olympics I've covered since '84 in L.A., it becomes the biggest scandal other than the bombing in Atlanta.

BANFIELD: And so just quickly from all of your coverage and the work that you've done with the Olympic committee members, et cetera, I can only imagine they want their name in Brazil cleared, but they don't want this to drag out. They don't want to get into protracted litigation with the United States over getting Lochte back here or holding those other two swimmers down here. My guess is that they'd really prefer just to have these swimmers tell the right story and then send them packing.

BRENNAN: Well, exactly. It's Thursday. This happened Sunday night - actually Saturday night, Sunday morning. So it's been several days and it's already kind of elongated.

The U.S. Olympic Committee is very careful, Ashleigh, about its reputation in the world, as the U.S. is. They'd like to tread lightly here, not make a scene. For example, in the Olympic village, you will never see any flags or any banners on the U.S. dormitory, the U.S. building. Security reasons, but also just - just calm it down. That is the mantra for the USOC, the Olympic Committee, always, always, always, always. To have something like this happen and then to have it be, if, in fact, the reporting locally here is true, to have it be something so egregious and so opposite of what Ryan Lochte originally said, it is absolutely the worst thing the U.S. Olympic Committee would have wanted at any Olympics, much less at these games where everyone has been so on-edge to begin with.

BANFIELD: Christine, thanks for your time. We'll continue to watch this story as the develops unravel. Appreciate it. Christine Brennan is live for us in Rio. Our Nick Paton Walsh, our thanks to him as well. Ahiza Garcia, thank you. And Danny Cevallos, as always, thank you for your perspective on this.

IN just a few moments, Hillary Clinton is sitting down with eight current and former police chiefs and sheriffs from across the country. This coming just two days after Donald Trump accused Hillary Clinton of bigotry against the police. So what is on the agenda for Secretary Clinton today and will it stick? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:17:38] BANFIELD: Hillary Clinton is ready to respond to Donald Trump's claims that she is anti-police, that he is the self-proclaimed law and order candidate instead. And in just a few minutes, Secretary Clinton's going to meet with law enforcement leaders from some of the nation's biggest cities. Among those meeting with the secretary are outgoing New York City Police Commissioner Bill Bratton, NYPD Police Chief James O'Neill, Tucson Police Chief Chris Magnus, and Los Angeles Police Chief Charles Beck.

This gathering comes at a sensitive time in relations between police and the communities that they serve, and also coming off the heels of a recent set of jabs by Donald Trump. Just take a listen to what he had to say about Hillary Clinton during a rally in Wisconsin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: She is against the police, believe me. You know it and I know it. And, guess what, she knows it. Those pedaling the narrative of cops as a racist force in our society, a narrative supported with a nod by my opponent, shared directly in the responsibility for the unrest in Milwaukee and many other places within our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Joining us now with the latest is CNN's Chris Frates.

So, there's a couple other biggies on the list as well. And I don't even know if I've got the exhaustive list, chief from Seattle, the former chief from Philadelphia, the chief from Camden County, Dallas County. What exactly does she expect to - to do in this meeting and then what's the message out of it?

CHRIS FRATES, CNN INVESTIGATIONS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Ashleigh, well, a Clinton aide telling us that the meeting will focus on the challenges and the opportunities the police face in cities across the country. And as you mentioned, you know, Clinton bringing in chiefs of police from some of the country's biggest cities, L.A., Philadelphia, Seattle. And that's just to name a few. But also in attendance is New York City Police Commissioner Bill Bratton, and he's been very critical of Donald Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BRATTON, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: Mr. Trump scares me. Scares the hell out of me, if I'm being quite frankly with you. That's a personal opinion and I just don't get it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why does he scare you as a possible president?

BRATTON: The lack of depth on issues. That - the shoot from the hip. It - I just watched this whole campaign and I just shake my head.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRATS: Now, the NYPD says Clinton requested the meeting and that Bratton will discuss the challenges of policing. And in a statement, the NYPD says, "as one of the most experienced leaders in American policing, Commissioner Bratton has a unique perspective into the profession and what we can do to reduce fear, build trust with the community, improve training and better equip officers having led police departments in Boston, Los Angeles, and twice in New York."

[12:20:25] And it's worth pointing out here, Ashleigh, Trump has not asked to meet with Bratton, but the commissioner would meet with the Republican nominee if he was asked. And this shootings coming after - excuse me, this meeting's coming after a shooting of a black man in Milwaukee this weekend and all those ensuing protests where Hillary Clinton had said that the country has urgent work to do to rebuild trust between police and communities, adding that everyone should have respect for and be respected by the law.

Now, Trump, meanwhile, has accused Clinton of being, quote, "against the police," saying she'd rather protect the offender and the victim. But by meeting with some of these very important and big police chiefs in just a few minutes, Clinton is really trying to send a message that, you know, she supports the police while still acknowledging that there's a lot of work to do here, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: It's a tough line to walk, and certainly there's a lot of room for criticism for both of these candidates to launch, that's for sure.

Chris Frates, thank you for that.

Coming up next, we're hearing from Donald Trump's new campaign manager, just one day after she got the job. Join us to find out what she thinks about the campaign, where it's headed, what she thinks she needs to do and what she thinks she doesn't need to do, which may be more interesting.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:26:02] BANFIELD: Well, the leadership team may be changing, but with 82 days until Americans choose a new president, the newly installed manager of the Trump campaign says the Republican nominee is not changing. Kellyanne Conway talked about the race and the polls and the upcoming debates and Donald Trump with my CNN colleague Alisyn Camerota. And it happened right here on "New Day" this morning. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLYANNE CONWAY, TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: I think we're going to sharpen the message and we're going to make sure Donald Trump is comfortable about being in his own skin, that he doesn't lose that authenticity that you simply can't buy and a pollster can't give you. Voters know if you're comfortable in your own skin. And let him be him in this sense. He wants to deliver a speech, if he wants to go to a rally, if he wants to connect with a crowd in a way that's very spontaneous, that's wonderful, and that's how he got here. That's how he became the nominee in large part, Alisyn.

I'll tell you what Donald Trump needs. He needs people who are like him in this sense. You have to be unapologetically unflinchingly unafraid of Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton and all this - all that Clinton campaign means, because we feel like - we feel like we're up against a major machine here and - and we - you know, you need people, good or for bad, who are at least willing to, as we like to say, leave it all on the field. Give it our best shot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So this supposedly unafraid adviser whom Conway was referring to there is the man on the right-hand side of your screen, the Trump campaign's new CEO and former head of the Breitbart website, Steve Bannon. Now, to the left of Kellyanne Conway there is the campaign chairman, Paul Manafort. He's still on the payroll, still has that same title, effectively, but he's very much been sidelined according to those who CNN has spoken with because it's been a pretty disastrous month.

I want you to meet my fearless panel now. Errol Louis is a CNN political commentator and political anchor of Time Warner Cable News, Philip Bump covers politics for "The Washington Post," and Mark Preston is the executive editor of CNN Politics.

So, Mark, first to you. Kellyanne Conway says sharpening the message.

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: Right.

BANFIELD: A lot of people think that Donald Trump's message is pretty sharp already. It's - that it's not focused. That it's sort of all over the place. It's a little like herding cats. Kellyanne Conway's great.

PRESTON: Right.

BANFIELD: You have to be herculean to be able to bring in Donald Trump, to keep a message sharp and focused. PRESTON: Right. And I think you saw the interview this morning. If you

haven't, I'm sure we have it up on cnn.com. She was very careful to say that she wants Donald Trump to be Donald Trump, be comfortable in his own skin, to be able to go out on the campaign trail and feel like it is his message.

Having said that, by getting him to follow her advice and feel comfortable, she believes that by narrowing this message down, making it to maybe three, four, or five issues, then that is going to be more effective than this shotgun blast that we see Donald Trump do where he goes out into these rallies and just starts rifting left and right and just goes off on tangents. If you are able to narrow the focus on issues that are critical to the selection and, quite frankly, could be damaging to Hillary Clinton, then Donald Trump can get back in this race very quickly.

BANFIELD: Didn't Paul Manafort already try to do that?

PRESTON: Yes, but, you know, the problem with the Trump campaign, when you talk to folks, is that Paul Manafort took the role as campaign manager, but really never was a campaign manager. It's not a gorgeous job. It's payroll. It's HR. It's daily messaging of the day. It's figuring out what's going on in the states. It's very much a job which, quite frankly, Steve Bannon is going into, who has never done, which is - that in itself is kind of interesting. But - but you need somebody, not only to control the message outwardly, but you need somebody to make sure that the trains are running on time internally.

[12:29:34] BANFIELD: Yes. So, Errol, you said that the addition of Kellyanne Conway could really change the metric for Donald Trump and help him to sort of turn that, you know, frown upside down so to speak. But then there's the whole notion of her saying that she's extremely comfortable with Steve Bannon in the campaign. And I'm just going to throw up a couple of headlines from Steve Bannon's website, Breitbart. If you haven't seen Breitbart, it's a far right website. And some of the headlines are pretty uncomfortable, I would say, especially for women. Take a look at these three. "There's no hiring bias against women in tech, they just suck at interviews." "Sympathy for the devils: the plot against Rogers Ailes - and America."