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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Trump Not Flip-Flopping on Deportation; Questions Surrounding the Clinton Foundation. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired August 22, 2016 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[12:00:32] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

Seventy-eight days before the race for president is decided. Donald Trump is denying right now that he is backing down on one of his signature policies, immigration. The Republican nominee phoned in to Fox News this morning after his nearly - or his newly hired campaign manager told CNN that Trump may or may not still support the mass deportation of 11 million plus illegal immigrants. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: We have to be very firm. We have to be very, very strong when people come in illegally. We have a lot of people that want to come in through the legal process. It's not fair for them. and we're working with a lot of people in the Hispanic community to try and come up with an answer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you're not flip-flopping?

TRUMP: No, I'm not flip-flopping. We want to come up with a really fair but firm answer. It has to be very firm.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: CNN's Sunlen Serfaty joins me live now from Washington. She's following this part of the campaign.

So, a lot of this started with this new tact (ph), we should say, in the campaign, which is to try to reach out to minority voters. But people seem to be somewhat confused as to what's coming. What exactly is going to be the policy when it comes to immigration?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Ashleigh, and there certainly are a lot of mixed messages coming from the Trump campaign right now. Trump had this meeting over the weekend with a newly formed Hispanic advisory board of his made up of his supporters. And leaving that meeting, there was some indication that many of the meeting participants, some of them, left with the impression that Donald Trump was softening some of his stances on immigration, and particularly the use of this so-called deportation force, one of the proposals that he had during the primary campaign. But on Sunday, his new campaign manager, Kellyanne Conway, was on with CNN's Dana Bash and indicated that, no, this policy is not something that is set in stone. Here's what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: They're going back where they came. If they came from a certain country, they're going to be brought back to that country. That's the way it's supposed to be.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: So does Donald Trump still support that, a deportation force removing the 11 million or so undocumented immigrants?

KELLYANNE CONWAY, TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: What he supports, and if you go back to his convention speech a month ago Dana, what he supports is to make sure that we enforce the law, that we are respectful of those American who are looking for well-paying jobs and that we are fair and humane for those who live among us in this country.

BASH: So -

CONWAY: And as the weeks unfold - as the weeks unfold, he will lay out the specifics of that plan that he would implement as president of the United States.

BASH: Will that plan include a deportation force, the kind that he just - you just heard in that sound bite and that he talked about during the Republican primaries?

CONWAY: To be determined.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: And Donald Trump is set to give a major policy address this week on immigration reform. So, potentially, we could get some clarification here on this. But keep in mind, of course, Ashleigh, as we're getting these mixed messages, this is Donald Trump's signature issue, his hard line stance on immigration. Always been such a hallmark of his campaign. So this sets up potentially a big reversal for him.

BANFIELD: Sunlen Serfaty live for us. Thank you for that.

Joining me now to talk more about Trump's prospects and the problems with Hispanic voters are Helen Aguirre Ferre, who's the director of Hispanic communications for the Republican National Committee, and GOP strategist and CNN political commentator Ana Navarro.

Welcome to the both of you.

Helena, you were in the meeting. So you are that preverbal fly on the wall. Why is it that some folk, sources I should say, are saying that it did seem like things might be changing on the Trump front when it comes to those, you know, 11 million undocumented workers and what's going to happen to them deportation wise -

HELEN AGUIRRE FERRE, DIRECTOR OF HISPANIC COMMUNICATIONS, RNC: Well - BANFIELD: And then others say, no, they came out of that meeting completely confused and not knowing exactly what his policy was. Give me your take.

FERRE: Well, Mr. - Mr. Trump never said what his policy was going to be. Mr. Trump was very clear that he wanted to hear from the advisory board as to what they considered were important and what were the issues of concern for the community, which were others, by the way, aside from immigration, like jobs, economy and national security. But, specifically, he was open to hearing what they wanted to say and he never said the word "legalization." He never said the word "deportation." Quite frankly, out of all of the things that we talked about, it was the one area where he sat, listened, took notes and didn't comment at all. So there is no way for any of us to know what he's going to do or say when it comes to immigration policy. But he was thoughtful in hearing everyone out.

[12:05:10] BANFIELD: Well, so, Ana Navarro, that's what we're hearing from many of the people who have reported back from that meeting, that he was thoughtful and that he did ask a lot of questions and that he asked people to put in writing what their recommendations were as well. And yet when we reached out to you today, I love your response to one of our producers, it was, you don't get to use the Hispanic community as a pinata and come back and make nice.

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That's right. Look, I - he launched his campaign on the theme that Mexicans were rapists and criminals and bringing crime over to the United States. He did say some of them were good. He has then gone on to make so many offensive statements. He questioned the ability of Judge Curiel, an American- born citizen, who is of Mexican heritage, to do his job as a judge because of his Mexican heritage. He told Jeb Bush to stop Mexican. He said to Jeb Bush, you've got to love illegals because of your wife. He kicked out Hose Diaz Bilard (ph) and Jorge Ramos (ph), the two leading network anchors, from events. Told Jorge Ramos to go back to Univision. I guess he forgot Univision is adjacent to his property at - in Miami. So, you know, it's been a barrage, one after the other, of offensive, outrageous remarks. He's been kicking us like puppies for the last year plus.

FERRE: I have to say, that has nothing to do with immigration reform.

NAVARRO: Listen, Helen, I - Helen, I let you speak and I'm old enough to remember when you used to tweet against Donald Trump. I'm told enough to remember when you used to be as offended as I am by the things Donald Trump used to say. That was before he was the nominee. That was before he was the - before you had an RNC job.

FERRE: I'm more offended by what Hillary Clinton has done, Ana. Ana, you can be as offended as you want by Donald - what Donald Trump has said. I am more offended by what Hillary Clinton has done and what she hasn't done. And, quite frankly, I'm offended that she panders to our community. I'm offended that Democrats take advantage of Hispanic votes and then do nothing with it. I'm offended that Hillary Clinton has flip-flopped numerous times on every aspect of immigration. And if we're going to talk about immigration reform and how to solve the problem of immigration, we need the - we need this kind of leadership to be able to bring it forward. Hillary Clinton has zero accomplishments. Donald Trump has many more accomplishments on the private sector.

BANFIELD: Can I -

FERRE: And, quite frankly, if Hillary was in the private sector, she would have been fired.

BANFIELD: I do want to ask -

NAVARRO: I will - Ashleigh, let me just say this. Well, Ashleigh -

BANFIELD: Yes.

NAVARRO: Let me - let me respond. Look, I have been very critical in the past of President Obama for not fulfilling his promise to Latinos. I have been critical of Democrats and Republicans using the immigration issue as a pawn issue, as a wedge issue. I have been critical of Hillary Clinton. She was the first voice to call for the immediate deportation of minors at the border. And I was one of the first voices to call her out for that. She has changed her tune.

Now, I have never heard Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton and frankly most Republicans use the racist remarks and racist language that I have heard Donald Trump use for the last year. When you question a man's ability to do his job as a judge because of his heritage, that's called bigotry. When you question -

BANFIELD: I will say this - I will say this, that many in those meeting, Ana, did say that they were as upset with President Obama's deportation over the last eight years as well, saying he has deported more than any president in the past.

That said, this is the bigger question. I feel as though if I were, you know, not here legally, I would be sitting on pins and needles wondering what the policy was going to be. And we're 78 days away. So. Helen, what - shouldn't we know by now what the immigration policy of the Republican leader is? I mean, by this point, shouldn't we be real clear?

FERRE: Well, I think - I think what should be clear is that we get the right policy in place more than put it on our time line. And, quite frankly, you know, when you look at the campaigns, traditionally campaigns don't really begin and people don't begin to focus on policy and details until right around this time or after Labor Day. But more than putting a timetable on it, you know, immigration is a very complex issue and there are a lot of moving parts. And so let's get it right and let's get a leader that's not going to pander, that's not going to promise and never commit to the promises.

When we go all across the nation, we find people who are forever telling us that they're tired of professional politicians who continuously promise and then have no intention of fulfilling their promises. This is one area where I really do believe that Donald Trump is going to fulfill the promise. Not the promise, he's going to commit to solving immigration reform and helping Hispanics, Latinos in other areas.

BANFIELD: I do - I do feel like it's been 14 months. It's been 14 months since he descended that escalator and talked about building a wall and -

[12:10:01] FERRE: But he was in a primary.

BANFIELD: And - well, it's been 14 months during running for the leadership of - you know, to be the candidate where he's had ample time to actually craft a policy and communicate the policy. We don't know the policy yet.

FERRE: And he's been working on this part. But you know what - but, Ashleigh, you will be hearing the policy soon enough.

BANFIELD: I hope so. God, I hope so.

FERRE: And - and the important thing -

BANFIELD: Yes.

FERRE: And you'll be hearing it soon enough. And I don't know what that policy is, but he did hear Hispanic leaders talk about it.

BANFIELD: There are a lot of really nervous people out there, you know? I think - and I misspoke - I misspoke when I said, if I were -

NAVARRO: Well, listen, I'll let - I'll let the majority of us -

BANFIELD: Hold on a second, Ana, I misspoke when I said if I were living here illegally. I'd be on pins and needles. I'm on pins and needles for all the people who are here. I don't want to see trains going through the U.S. loading people up and shipping them out in the darkness of night. I think that's just inhumane. And if this leader wants to be humane, that is definitely a policy he's going to have to come to grips with. And I don't know where that middle ground is, but I hope we find it soon.

FERRE: But don't you think, Ashleigh - but, Ashleigh, there's pain on all sides of this issue. There's pain for those who are undocumented, those -

BANFIELD: Notwithstanding.

FERRE: Those are people -

BANFIELD: Yes.

FERRE: Also who live on the border and who have had to deal with the crime on the borders.

BANFIELD: Without question.

FERRE: That - they are in pain as well.

BANFIELD: It's why it's not an easy issue. FERRE: It's not.

BANFIELD: You're spot on.

Helen, thank you so much. Ana, thank you very much.

FERRE: Thank you.

BANFIELD: It's a - it is a painful topic and maybe throughout the rest of this week you and I can meet again and we can talk about what will be announced if we're expected to get more policy details throughout the week.

And watching this from opposite ends of the country are CNN senior political analyst and senior editor of "The Atlantic," Ron Brownstein. He joins me from LA. And from "The New York Times" we're joined by national political correspondent Patrick Healy.

Hi, guys.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Good morning.

BANFIELD: I'm hoping that you were all wired up.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

BANFIELD: You could hear that because sometimes our guests join us mid segment. But just so I can check, did you both hear that discourse?

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, I did.

PATRICK HEALY, POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "NEW YORK TIMES": Yes.

BANFIELD: OK.

So this is a concern. I mean this is a very passionate concern. Ana Navarro's always passionate, but that's about the most I think I've seen from her. It's a painful subject. I don't know where this middle ground can come from.

Ron, help me.

BROWNSTEIN: Well, look, first of all, her passion is a reflection of the response to Donald Trump and the Hispanic community. I mean he is on track, at the moment, for the biggest deficit ever for a Republican. I mean there are large scale poll of Hispanics, some of the largest scale polls, have put his support in the teens. Even Mitt Romney reached 27 percent. And for him to be talking about moving away from mass deportation, that is at the upper end - that would be at the upper end of policy switches for flip-flops, whatever you want to call it, that I can recall ever among - from a primary to a general election. Just to underscore, this was a cornerstone of his primary message and appeal. I mean he talked about it repeatedly. He compared it to Operation Wetback, which was an Eisenhower, you know, administration initiative to remove people from the U.S. He said it could be done like that. And, Ashleigh, it's worth pointing out that if you look back through the exit polls in the primaries, they asked Republican primary voters what to do with the people who are here, undocumented people who are here. Less than a majority said deport them in almost every state. But people who supported deportation voted for Trump in such large numbers that those deportation advocates were a majority of his voters in every state except Wisconsin and New York. So for him to switch now would be really a remarkable shift from the argument that he used to build a coalition that won him the nominee.

BANFIELD: Patrick, though, if he were to say flip-flop, he said this morning on Fox News this is not a flip flop.

HEALY: Right.

BANFIELD: I am not flip-flopping. Yet we don't know what the policy's going to be yet, so let's give him the benefit of the doubt. If he were to flip-flop, would he be able to close a gap? I'm just going to run through a couple of the latest polls. The NBC/"Wall Street Journal"/Telemundo poll has Clinton at 76 percent of Hispanic vote to Trump's 14 percent. The Pew poll has Clinton at 50 percent to Trump's 26 percent. And you just saw on your screen, the Fox News poll has Clinton at 66 percent to Trump's 20 percent support among Hispanics. If he were to flip-flop, would he be able to - this is a two part question, Patrick - would he be able to close that gap in a meaningful way and would he then literally drive away all of those people who have driven him to the leadership role he's in right now because they loved his message of get rid of them, get them out of here?

HEALY: Right. Right. I mean to close the gap in a meaningful way would be not only to surpass what Mitt Romney was getting with Hispanic voters to 2012, but try to get back to something like what George W. Bush was getting in 2004. And that is so hard to imagine, Ashleigh. I mean right now he has phrases that have become synonymous with his, you know, entire campaign, "build a wall," Mexico's going to pay for it," Mexicans coming over the border swarming, you know, as drug dealers and rapist, and especially "deportation force." You know, that's going beyond what Romney was talking about, about self- deportation four years ago and going to this sort of deportation force.

[12:14:58] Now, Donald Trump, you know, the other day, made this kind of vague assertion that he felt regret toward comments that he made that caused people personal pain. We still don't know what that referred to. If it was referring to Hispanic who might be offended by his words, they're going to be looking for, you know, a lot more than just an apology. I mean a flip-flop of that proportion though goes exactly to your second point, which is it could alienate just vast numbers of his supporters who have taken it as an article of faith -

BANFIELD: That base, yes.

HEALY: As an article of faith that this guy is going to follow through.

BANFIELD: They might be the ones who would give him a break if he shot the, you know, the gun down Fifth Avenue.

Real quickly, guys, I wanted to just touch on something that - that Donald Trump had said. It made a lot of headlines. He's reaching out to the African-American section of society saying, what the hell do you have to lose? Democrats have failed you, but you've stuck with them. Why not come over to my side.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

BANFIELD: So Mike Pence was actually asked about this. Our Alisyn Camerota had a sit-down with him at the Iowa State Fair and he - she asked him specifically, what exactly did he mean by that? Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald Trump is not an experienced politician who carefully selects his words. He speaks right from his heart, right from his mind. What you heard this week is a leader who is determined to make America great for everyone in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So, you know, I think a lot of people would say, OK, but doesn't it take decades to win over a demographic, Ron?

BROWNSTEIN: Yes. Look, I mean, I think this is very similar to what we're seeing with Hispanics, what he's talking about with African- Americans. He's starting in an enormous hole. There are national polls with him at 2 percent or 1 percent among Hispanics, even low - I'm sorry, among African-Americans, even lower than Mitt Romney was, in part because of his role in the birther controversy and trying to fan that issue for years, which may African-Americans view his attempt to delegitimize the first black president.

It may be, Ashleigh, that the real goal in talking about this inclusion is not that they expect to improve significantly with Hispanics or African-Americans. This may be more about trying to reassure white moderates who tend to do - polling tells us that 60 percent of college educated whites say Donald Trump is racially biased against women. And this may be - more be about trying to convince some of those white swing voters that this - that he is not, in fact, racially biased, than having real big expectations of changing what he's on track for, which are historically low numbers with this growing, increasingly diverse non-white share of the electorate.

BANFIELD: You know what, and I want to be real clear -

HEALY: And, Ashleigh - and, Ashleigh, to that - to that point, he -

BANFIELD: Well, hold - hold one second because I did hear a criticism -

HEALY: Yes.

BANFIELD: This morning on our air that we've been sticking to one poll only when you say Clinton had 91 percent support of African-Americans to Trump's 1 percent. That's "The Wall Street Journal" poll. So I asked our producers to dig up -

BROWNSTEIN: It's 92 to 2 skew, yes.

BANFIELD: Yes.

BROWNSTEIN: Those (ph) numbers.

BANFIELD: Well, I asked - I asked our producers to dig up as many as they could. I've got four for you right here. The ABC poll is 92 to 2.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

BANFIELD: The Fox poll is 85 to 1 percent. And the Pew poll is 85 to 2 percent. So it seem like this is a repeated refrain.

BROWNSTEIN: And there are state polls at zero, by the way. And there are state polls at zero.

BANFIELD: Hey, can you guys stick around, I have a -

HEALY: And turning - turning around those numbers - turning around those numbers are going to be very hard.

BANFIELD: One second.

HEALY: But just look at where - look at where Donald Trump is advertising right now, to Ron's point.

BANFIELD: Yes.

HEALY: He's advertising heavily in the Philadelphia suburbs. You know, in place where there are white, moderate Republicans and independents who are concerned about that racism.

BANFIELD: Patrick, can you stick around? I've got -

HEALY: Sure.

BANFIELD: I want - I want you both to come back because you're just flat out of time in this segment, but I have a lot more questions for you and do want to hear more from you.

Coming up next, tis the season Hillary Clinton spending $80 million in just eight states for a whole lot of TV attack time. So how is Donald Trump battling back and will he be able to get more free media than she does? And is all free media good media? Good questions as we count down to the election.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:22:40] BANFIELD: Hillary Clinton's campaign is re-enforcing its dominance on the airwaves. An aide says the campaign has reserved $80 million in ads throughout Election Day, and they will be running in eight battleground states. But that does not include Colorado and Virginia, since recent polls show that Clinton is up handily over Trump in those two swing states.

All of this comes on the heels of the campaign unveiling a brand new attack ad against Trump. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): In times of crisis, America depends on steady leadership.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Knock the crap out of him, would you, seriously.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clear thinking.

TRUMP: I know more about ISIS than the generals do, believe me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: In the meantime, Donald Trump is responding with an attack ad of his own involving the Clinton Foundation. In a statement he said, "it is now clear that the Clinton Foundation is the most corrupt enterprise in political history. What they were doing during crooked Hillary's time as secretary of state was wrong then and it's wrong now. It must be shut down immediately."

I want to bring back CNN's senior political analyst Ron Brownstein.

So, these are really strident words when you say that this is the most corrupt, you know, enterprise in political history. And yet, Ron, we're not seeing Hillary Clinton refuting this. Instead, she sticks to this message of Trump is dangerous. Does she need to do something to offset the damage that Donald Trump is doing, because a lot of people go off bumper stickers.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, well, no, look, I mean they - they certainly feel like this qualifying - maintaining the sense that Trump is not qualified to be president, which 60 percent of the public says in polls, is their kind of ultimate firewall, and that is their top priority in advertising. But, look, this issue is one of many in which all the complexity of Clinton world have kind of converged over her campaign. I mean, you know, the Clinton Foundation has done a lot of good things in a lot of places, on AIDs drug, on nutrition, on the role of women and girls in the developing world. But there - you know, it is kind of unprecedented to have an institution of this magnitude headed by a former president while his spouse is in a major role as secretary of state, much less potentially as president of the United States. And I've got to think that the - that the strictures that they've just announced is not the end of the story, that it's going to be difficult to maintain - if she does get elected president, I think they're going to find it difficult to maintain this in anything like its current form while she is president. I mean there are just inherent challenges with Bill Clinton unquestionably, you know, you would want him as a close advisor and this would be a back door way to influence him. I think it's going to be - I think this is a story that's going to be ongoing for Hillary Clinton, not only through the election, but after if she wins. [12:25:22] BANFIELD: OK, one quick question about Rudy Giuliani. He -

he's back to talking about Hillary Clinton's health issues and he actually said, just go ahead and Google it. Well, if you Google me, I can't even tell you the unsubstantiated, crazy stuff that I read.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

BANFIELD: The Internet is full of crap.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

BANFIELD: But Hillary Clinton doesn't have this same sort of attack line or conspiracy theorists in chief out there for her. Does she need that?

BROWNSTEIN: No. No, I don't think she does because I - look, I think Donald - all of these kind of - the more heated the accusations get against Clinton, the more it misses the point. A majority of the voters have already made very clear, they have lots of reservations about Hillary Clinton on lots of different fronts. Donald Trump's problem is that 60 percent of Americans consistently in polls say he is not qualified to be president, and nearly as many, as we talked about before, say he's racially biased and unfair to women, unless Donald Trump can change that.

You know, adding more doubts about Hillary Clinton is not going to solve his problem. And, in fact, the reckless charges about Hillary Clinton only add to those doubts about whether Donald Trump is someone who is stable, secure and kind of responsible enough to be president. So I would actually say this line of attack would be counterproductive if you kind of think about Donald Trump's real problem, particularly with the voters who are in the way between where he is and where he needs to get, which are predominately college educated white voters who - where he is markedly underperforming other Republicans and who I think would be the least likely to respond to these kinds of wild accusations.

BANFIELD: Ron Brownstein joining us live from LA, thank you for that. Appreciate it.

Coming up next, Virginia's Democratic governor, moments ago, defying Republicans and the court by restoring voting rights to thousands of felons just in time for a tight presidential race. So will the order hold up? And just how quickly can he sign his name to restore voting rights one by one?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)