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WORLD RIGHT NOW WITH HALA GORANI
A 6.2 Magnitude Earthquake Hits Central Italy; Widespread Devastation In Italy's Mountain Villages; Rescue Workers Racing To Find Survivors In Rubble; Turkey Launches Ground Incursion Into Syria; Turkey Seeking U.S. Extradition Of Suspected Coup Leader; Ukraine Marks Independence As Fighting Rages; At Least 120 Killed In Italian Earthquake; Muslim Swimwear Banned From Some French Beaches; Manitoba Introduces Anti- Sex Trafficking Curriculum. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired August 24, 2016 - 15:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Hala Gorani. We are live at CNN London, a busy day and a lot to get through this hour.
Thanks for being with us. This is the WORLD RIGHT NOW.
The Italian town of Amatrice has been around since the 16th Century. Now it's in ruins. A powerful 6.2 magnitude quake struck Central Italy early
this morning. It hit Amatrice and a string of other remote mountain villages.
The earthquake was so strong that people in Bologna felt it and the city is more than 220 kilometers from the epicenter. The death toll from the quake
has already soared to 120 people. You see the images of the destruction there.
More than 2,500 are homeless. The damage is especially severe because the quake was, indeed, so shallow. Right now it's after 9:00 p.m. there.
Darkness is falling making the rescue more difficult.
This region where the quake hit is very remote. Survivors pulled from the rubble have lost everything in many cases. Here's Erin McLaughlin.
ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Buried beneath the rubble, a sign of life. Are you able to breathe, a rescue worker asks?
Only a bit, the response. A bit, OK. The important thing is to stay calm. Police officers are now on their way.
These are the lucky ones, young and old, the survivors of Wednesday's deadly earthquake. As they make their way to safety, the look of shock is
all too apparent. The quake struck this holiday region in the dead of night, many were sound asleep in their beds.
John Carlo says his house in the town of Amatrice collapsed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I have never experienced anything like this. Small tremors, yes, but nothing this big. This is a
MCLAUGHLIN: The immediate hours after the quake, an Italian journalist was among the first to arrive and found a local priest desperate for help. I
don't see the rescue operation taking place, he says. We need more people to help. We need everything to deal with this emergency. As you can see,
there is not much happening here.
The topography of the region compounds the rescue efforts. Remote villages dot the mountainous landscape. They're difficult to access in the best of
conditions. This is where Italians and tourists go to escape the summer heat. Emma Tucker was one of them.
EMMA TUCKER, EARTHQUAKE SURVIVOR: The house was shaking. It was very intense. An appalling noise, clinking, thundering, and sort of rumble. It
felt like some had put a bulldozer to the house and try to knock it down.
MCLAUGHLIN: In Amatrice, more help arrives. The wounded carried away on stretchers. Gold foil is held up out of respect for the dead. The
village's 13 Century clock tower is one of the few structures still handing, hands frozen in time 3:36 a.m., the exact moment when the first
quake struck, the exact moment so many lives would never be the same. Erin McLaughlin, CNN.
GORANI: Well, our Atika Shubert is actually now live in Saleta Italy, very close to the epicenter with the very latest. What's the situation now?
It's dark -- Atika.
ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. It is dark. But as you can see there is a lot of action happening. Earth-
moving equipment has pulled in, an ambulance as well. This is really only happened in the last few hours.
Prior to this they really weren't able to get a lot of heavy equipment in here. So what we are seeing behind me is the extent of the wreckage. This
is one home that's absolutely collapsed. Beyond it, another ten houses that's a very small square here.
Almost all of them also destroyed. When we arrived about two hours ago is when we actually saw a rescue team discover another two bodies, pull them
out from the rubble and we also understand another body remains up there.
[15:05:05]As you can imagine for residents up here, they're absolutely devastated. I spoke to one family who's basically camped out. They've got
chairs and they're waiting to find their loved ones under the rubble.
They've accepted that they most likely have been killed by the earthquake, but they want to be there when the bodies are pulled out. It's still very
raw situation here, families in shock, still wearing the same clothes they had on last night or early morning when the earthquake struck.
And crews all through here trying to sort through the debris and find whoever they can -- Hala.
GORANI: And those families, it's heartbreaking to hear, pulling up chairs and waiting for what they believe will be the bodies, not their relatives
alive but their bodies to be pulled. There has to be some hope, though, because it hasn't been 24 hours, that some people trapped will be rescued
alive -- Atika.
SHUBERT: I think there is for many of them. They are still harboring that hope, but I think as the hours go by, they're preparing for the worst. So
what we are seeing is that a lot of people just walking back and forth, kind of in a daze with blankets wrapped around them.
There are tent camps here for them to try and have a place to stay tonight, but frankly nobody is getting any sleep. They're here to not only wait to
find any news of family members but to salvage whatever family mementos are inside.
This is a really, really small town. It's only about 20 people in winter live here. But the population swell since summer because people come here
for summer holiday.
And one of the families that I spoke to was actually here two weeks ago and then the father had come to stay here as well and that's when the
earthquake happened. For a lot of them, these are homes that have been in the family for generations and so they want to save whatever they can --
GORANI: But also the displaced, I mean this is a remote area. Where are people sleeping? We're talking about thousands, 2,500 up to 3,000 people
who are now homeless.
SHUBERT: That's right. What we've seen is a numerous tent camps popping up around here and they've tried to supply them with shelter with water and
food. There is a place for people to stay.
But what I find, many people here, they want to keep moving, they want to have something do. They don't want to just sit in the camp. This is one
of the most frustrating part for them is waiting for news to find out what's going to happen next.
GORANI: OK. And those are the displaced and because it's so remote, a priest saying we're not getting help, we're not getting people to come to
the scene quickly enough. Has that improved? Is all the machinery there that's needed, the rescue workers that are needed there, have they arrived?
SHUBERT: It has improved but all of the heavy machinery has really only arrived in the last three or four hours or so. For most of the day, that
equipment was not here. People were moving, you know, the rubble by hand. You're simply not able to lift those huge slabs of cement, those metal
columns without that heavy moving equipment.
So for most of the day residents were here going through the rubble. Now what we see is a lot more teams in the rubble now. The army has also been
deployed to try and help so that is happening and they will work through the night to clear what they can.
GORANI: All right, thanks very much, Atika Shubert, our senior international correspondent there reporting on the ground from the quake
Let's get the latest on what's going on at the scene as well. I'm joined on the phone by Luigi D'Angelo. He is in Amatrice. He is the head of the
International Relations Unit at the Italian Civil Protection Agency.
Mr. D'Angelo, thanks for being with us. First of all, let's talk a little bit about the rescue operation here because after any earthquake there is
still hope that you will find people alive. Talk to us about rescues.
LUIGI D'ANGELO, ITALIAN CIVIL PROTECTION (via telephone): Yes, yes, definitely. We keep going on with the rescue all night. Of course, we'll
stop the rescue only when we're sure that nobody is still under (inaudible).
It's an activity being developed since the very beginning after the earthquake and it's still ongoing. All the rescue operators from fire
brigades, (inaudible) branch, organization volunteers are still operating now especially in Amatrice and the surroundings.
GORANI: And have you established any contact with anybody who is still trapped under the rubble who needs rescuing who is alive?
D'ANGELO: Yes. The rescue teams are in contact in the -- in a few cases now with people that are still under ruins and they are trying to reach
them. It's still ongoing.
[05:10:13]GORANI: It's still ongoing. So there is hope there. Do you have all the machinery you need in order to assist you in these rescue
D'ANGELO: Yes, yes. We have all the machinery. It's quite small. The streets are very narrow. It's quite challenging, but so far we have all
the machines that can be operating in those kinds of conditions.
GORANI: And these are difficult conditions because it's high up in the mountains. It's also very remote. How difficult is it to work there in
this area, Amatrice and the surrounding areas?
D'ANGELO: It's quite difficult to reach it. That's the main challenge. It's quite difficult to reach it and we need heavy trucks to come here to
bring the different machinery. So it's quite challenging to convey all the different means that we need.
GORANI: Are you going to be working all night?
D'ANGELO: Yes, of course, of course. The situation is ongoing. We have enough control and coordination (inaudible) the municipality of Amatrice.
We don't (inaudible) on the field and the rescue teams are very close to the ruins.
GORANI: All right. And so the other thing I was going to ask you is what about the people who are displaced? What happens to all those people who
don't have anywhere to spend the night? This is going to be their first night without a home.
D'ANGELO: Yes. Thanks to the contribution of (inaudible) of volunteers in the different regions that are deployed here. We have established almost
1,000 bed places, places to sleep and tents and in some gymnasium all over (inaudible). People can recover. There's the Red Cross and lots of
GORANI: I want to circle back to those people who must be going through a very, very tough time now waiting to hear if their relatives who are buried
under collapsed buildings are still alive or not. How much hope do you have of reaching people who may have survived this?
D'ANGELO: Yes. In many cases it shows after two days the people can be rescued alive. We want to continue. We're very strongly convinced that
the operations are to be concentrated in the location where we're sure that people are there and we have to keep going on.
GORANI: Good luck to you and your team. Thank you very much for joining us. I know it's been an extremely busy and emotional day. Luigi D'Angelo
of the Italian Civil Protection Agency.
Still to come tonight, Turkey's president says enough is enough. He's actually sending tanks and ground troops into Northern Syria today to try
to drive ISIS from the border region. A live update just ahead and then this --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At 4:00 like clockwork this begins and it really takes off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: We will take you to the front lines between Ukrainian troops and pro-Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine. Ceasefire? What ceasefire? We'll
be right back.
GORANI: Now to a dramatic escalation in Turkey's involvement in Syria. It launched a ground incursion today sending tanks and Special Forces into
North Syria. Those troops were backed by American-led warplanes and they join Syrian rebels as they attack the ISIS held town of (inaudible).
In a lightning fast operations, the rebels forced ISIS to retreat and are now reportedly in full control. Turkey is making clear, though, that ISIS
is not the only target of this operation.
Ben Wedeman is in Ankara with the very latest. First of all, what is Turkey's aim here ultimately, Ben, in Northern Syria?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we heard today from an anonymous Turkish official is that they want to set up what
they call a terror-free zone which sounds an awful lot like a buffer zone to me. This is something Turkish officials have been talking for quite
They say among other things this will help to stem the flow of Syrian refugees into Turkey, but above and beyond that, it's importantly to keep
in mind that for two and a half years, ISIS has controlled (inaudible) and Turkey did nothing.
But certainly when we've seen over the last few months a steady advance of Kurdish-Syrian forces taking over more and more territory in north and
northeast Syria -- rather northwest Syria, it seems that the Turks became mobilized.
What they want to avoid is essentially the creation of an independent Syrian-Kurdish entity on their borders at a time when Turkey is struggling
against a resumption of hostilities between the PKK, the Kurdish Workers Party in Turkey itself, which has been waging a war of separation against
the Turkish state since 1984 -- Hala.
GORANI: Ben, on another front, Joe Biden, was sent to Ankara, the U.S. vice president, just a few weeks after that attempted coup against
President Erdogan. It must have been a tightrope that he had to walk there during this visit. What was the headline out of Joe Biden's meeting with
WEDEMAN: Certainly what we saw is a reiteration of the U.S. commitment to Turkey and to Turkish democracy. Many Turkish politicians, the media
complained that the United States was not robust so to speak in its condemnation of the attempted coup de tat, which took place here on the
15th of July.
Now, what we heard from the Turkish president after he met with Biden was a reiteration for his demand that the U.S. at least arrest at the moment
Fetullah Gulen, that Turkish cleric who has been in self-imposed exile in the United States since 1989. This is what he told Biden after their
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN, TURKISH PRESIDENT (through translator): He is still continuing his actions around the world and he's shaping his actions for
the future using these outlets. That's why it's very important for him to be detained through trial detention, which is actually a part of the
bilateral extradition treaty that was signed between our two countries which we should not ignore. I'm confident the United States will take the
necessary measures to cater to our expectations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WEDEMAN: Now last night Turkey did submit to the United States an official extradition request, but Vice President Biden during the press conference
today with the Turkish prime minister stressed that extradition is not something that the U.S. president can simply sign an executive order and
hand over the wanted individual, that it has to go through the courts.
So Biden was stressing that U.S. officials, the Justice Department officials here in Ankara at the moment discussing this matter that the U.S.
will cooperate fully with the Turks.
[15:20:06]But in the end, the fate of Fetullah Gulen is going have to be up to the American courts -- Hala.
GORANI: All right. That's yet another complicating factor. Ben Wedeman, thanks very much. He's live in Ankara.
Speaking of complicated situations, though it's a significant day in Ukraine, the country is marking 25 years since it became independent from
the Soviet Union. Well, the shadow of its neighbor Russia is very much hanging over the celebrations.
A war of words between the two countries is threatening to spill over. Ukraine's president, Petro Poroshenko spoke to Christiane Amanpour and he
accused President Putin of trying to destabilize his country once again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETRO POROSHENKO, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: The purpose of Putin is to attempt to destabilize the situation in Ukraine. They don't need (inaudible).
They need the whole Ukraine should be the part of the Russian empire and they will not destabilize the global security situation in the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: So Petro Poroshenko telling CNN there, Russia won't stop at Crimea. It wants the whole country. If you look at the country's east,
but it hasn't been in the headlines, you can be forgiven for thinking things are calm there. After all there supposed to be a ceasefire in
Eastern Ukraine, but there is not much evidence of it.
Our Phil Black has been to the front lines and he joins me live now from Kharkiv. You had quite an eventful day, Phil, in Eastern Ukraine. Tell us
PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Hala. It's no secret that the ceasefire you mentioned doesn't carry a lot of credibility in this
region. That it's routinely broken both sides accuse each other of breaching it all the time. International observers are here counting,
describing what they call violations.
But that would really doesn't do justice to what we saw, what we witnessed was an ongoing war, one that has become increasingly bloody and violent in
recent months and markedly so and clearly still has the potential to escalate a lot further.
BLACK (voice-over): Through this gate is one front line of a war still ravaging a country and destroying lives. A year and a half after all sides
promised a ceasefire where would Ukrainian soldiers near (inaudible) in the country's east as they try to hold a position against pro-Russian forces.
(on camera): Slamming into the walls of this shed. The people here say this is what it's like every single day. They're not just lobbing stuff at
each other. They're trying to move forward and take each other's territory.
(voice-over): Captain (inaudible) Gorovski (ph) tells us we must now run. This short dash for cover draws fire. We shelter in the remains of another
devastated building. The source of the incoming fire is very close.
(on camera): So your enemy's out that way?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BLACK: About 100 meters away?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BLACK (voice-over): The pause in the shooting allows us to move forward. We cross more open ground between old buildings. This industrial site is a
fiercely contested prize. The Ukrainian forces say they've lost ten men here in the last month and there are casualties every day.
The captain wants to show us one of the positions they're being attacked from. A tall tower-like building so close we could stroll there in less
than a minute. At that moment, the fighting picks up. There is incoming fire from several directions.
(on camera): There is now fighting during the day every day. The soldiers here say. But more than that, it's in the evening, 4:00, like clockwork
this begins and it really kicks off. Why is this position, this territory so important?
(voice-over): He says the enemy has already moved beyond the line of control set in the peace deal. He says the pro-Russian forces move forward
from here, they could keep going and take any city in Ukraine.
[15:25:01]From relative safety, we listen to the remains of war. Until it gets too close. Mortars land just outside. They're punched through this
(on camera): Chris, you good?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, let's go, let's go.
[02:50:09]BLACK (voice-over): Bullets whistle around our team during the final run to safety. This is what a ceasefire looks like in Eastern
BLACK: So, Hala, what you saw there was one snapshot, one location on a front line that is some 500 kilometers long. One piece of fighting that
takes place along that long contested line.
Today we're told by the Ukrainian government that the fighting along the front line intensified even further. It's become a tradition as Ukraine
marks its independence day every year, which is the official anniversary of this country breaking from Moscow and the USSR.
Having seen all of that, the direction and the momentum of the fighting, it is very difficult to conclude anything else other than the ceasefire, the
Minsk agreement as it is known with none of its key points yet in place some 18 months later. It's very difficult to assess that as being anything
other than an absolute failure at this point -- Hala.
GORANI: But is either side making any progress one way or the other as a result of this daily fighting? It wasn't just the exchange of gunfire. I
mean, mortars are being logged. This is intense fighting going on. What is the end result of all of it?
BLACK: So you get some movements, we're told, in the front lines. Positions are taken and lost, but to a significant extent, those front
lines, that line control is pretty much frozen as it was at the time of the signing of the ceasefire, so all that happens is really the loss of life.
Soldiers, fighters on both sides, civilians as well, and those casualties on this have really been increasing in recent months as the fighting has
been increasingly becoming more intent.
GORANI: All right, Phil Black, thanks very much. He is in Kharkiv, Eastern Ukraine.
Some terrifying moments for students and teachers at the American University in Kabul today and the danger may not yet be over. Militants
attacked the school with explosives and gunfire just a few hours ago.
At least five people were wounded. Some staff members and students are still believed trapped inside. Afghan Special Forces are on the scene
right now. The U.S. government says American advisers are providing non- combat assistance in the situation. We are keeping our eye on that unfolding crisis at the American University in Kabul.
Next, we return to Italy's devastating earthquake. I'll speak to an expert about the threat facing this remote and mountainous region.
Also, coming up, a ban on burkinis is sparking controversy on French beaches. Is the risk of discrimination worth protecting secularism? We'll
have that debate right here on the WORLD RIGHT NOW.
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: A look at our top stories. Welcome back. At least 120 people are dead after a 6.2 magnitude quake in Central
Italy overnight. Rescuers still much working to pull people from underneath the rubble of their homes.
In fact, one of the civil rescue services told us just a few minutes ago that they were still establishing contact with people buried. Many were
displaced with entire villages razed. We'll have more in a moment.
Ukraine's president is accusing Russia of wanting Ukraine to be part of his, quote, "Russian empire." Petro Poroshenko told CNN that Russia has
one purpose that the world should be less stable and less secure. He was speaking as his country marked 25 years of independence from the Soviet
And there's been a major escalation in Turkey's involvement in Syria. Turkey sent tanks and Special Forces into the northern part of the country
today. Troops backed by Syrian rebels and also American led warplanes are fighting to secure the border region. They reported took just hours for
them to drive ISIS from a key town called (inaudible).
Let's return now to our top story this hour, the strong shallow earthquake that has devastated villages in Central Italy. The affected region is
remote and mountainous that's made it tricky for rescuers.
They can only reach some areas by small local roads. Of course, all of that makes it difficult to bring in machinery. The prime minister of Italy
says the government will spare no effort to save as many people trapped in the rubble as possible.
Vatican radio is reporting that Pope Francis is sending six firemen to help in rescue efforts. He's also called the bishop in the affective area. So
really it's all hands on deck here. Everybody in Italy trying to help.
Let's get more on the region and the threat that it still faces. David is the professor of Planetary Geosciences at the Open University. Thanks for
being with us. So this area is no stranger to big earthquakes.
DAVID ROTHERY, PROFESSOR OF PLANETARY GEOSCIENCES, OPEN UNIVERSITY: No, it's not. There was a similar sized earthquake with a similar depth in
GORANI: And that really caused a lot of damage and more than 300 people killed.
ROTHERY: Absolutely. So it's likely the death toll from this quake will rise. Let's hope it doesn't go as high as 300.
GORANI: So why are earthquakes so common there?
ROTHERY: Well, you can blame it on the convergence of Africa with Europe. The whole of the Mediterranean has been crushed between these two
continents grinding together. And Italy is riddled with faults and Africa is moving toward Europe less than a centimeter a year and the energy gets
It doesn't get moved gradually. It sticks and then suddenly it will let rip at a certain area when the forces overcome the friction on the fault.
That's what happened last night.
GORANI: People always ask this question. Is it impossible to predict even if the window is a big window. Is this area more at risk than other areas?
ROTHERY: Well, I've seen (inaudible) and the central part of (inaudible) is where this occurred is the highest hazard risk area of Italy, but it
just says in 50 years there will be more quakes here than elsewhere. You can't say it's going to occur next week or next month or next year.
GORANI: That's the problem. Always a problem with earthquakes.
ROTHERY: Not always. This particular area is very hard to predict though.
GORANI: Harder than others.
GORANI: Why is that?
ROTHERY: If you have a simple fault line in California, you know it's happening. It's gone here, gone there. This in the middle hasn't moved.
That's probably due next. It's so complicated under Central Italy that that is very hard to do.
GORANI: What do you do to rebuild? I mean, is there a way to at least mitigate the effects?
ROTHERY: You can make buildings --
GORANI: Short of moving somewhere else because you don't want to take the risk again. Is there something --
ROTHERY: Yes, you can make buildings resilient to earthquakes. Make them life safe so they don't collapse. We are seeing footage of the buildings.
They're stone buildings.
[15:35:06]Stones fall out. Ceilings are not well supported. You can rebuild when ceilings are tied to the walls. When they sway, they all sway
together, roofs don't come down and you have good reinforce concrete with good reinforcing block.
I don't know how many new buildings have fallen down. Anything built in the past 50 years should not fall down. There are seismic codes in place
to build structures. We have yet to see results of that. Spend a little extra money so billings can't fall down and kill somebody.
GORANI: Absolutely. That's really the goal. Once an earthquake has happened in one place, then you expect potentially aftershocks and those
can be just as deadly.
ROTHERY: There have been aftershocks all day, every 10 minutes or so, something magnitude 2, 3, that's a thousand times less powerful than the
original earthquake --
GORANI: But on a weakened building.
ROTHERY: It can feel just as strong and if the building is already weak, yes, more damage can happen. That puts the rescuers at risk as well.
Usually aftershocks get weaker (inaudible). By next week there will be few aftershocks. We can't rule out a large aftershock. It's unlikely but we
can never rule it out.
GORANI: All right, thank you very much, Professor Rothery for joining us. We really appreciate your time and your expertise on this story. We hope
they still find people alive under all that rubble.
All right, now let's focus on the burkini. Everyone has an opinion on the burkini ban and the controversy around in Europe. They are supposed havens
of sun and relaxation, but some French beaches have become the front line in this very hot debate. Take a look.
GORANI (voice-over): Moments earlier she'd been napping in the sunshine. New pictures from Nice, France, show a woman being ordered by police to
remove some of her clothes and forcing a new controversial law that bans burkinis from the beaches of several French cities.
The full body and hair covering swimsuit worn by some Muslim women. The mayor of Cannes, the resort made famous by the glitzy film festival
described the burkini as, quote, "a symbol of Islamic extremism," imposing a 38 euro fine for anyone who wears it.
The ban has sparked outrage for many, though, with one Algerian businessman offering to pay women's fines.
RACHID NOKKAZ, ALGERIAN BUSINESSMAN PAYING BURKINI FINES (through translator): When I saw that a few French mayors were prohibiting and
without any public debate peaceful women wearing the piece of clothing of their choice, I understood that Muslims are going to have a difficult few
I've decided to pay the fines of all women who wear the burkini in order to guarantee their freedom to wear these clothes and most of all to neutralize
this oppressive and unfair law.
GORANI: At the heart of the heated burkini debate is the French concept of (inaudible) or secularism. The strict separation of religion from public
life, a fundamental principle of the French Republic.
But the issue has been complicated by the spate of recent terror attacks in France including the truck massacre in Nice in July, which killed 87.
Some are accusing French politicians of exploiting the opportunity to stigmatize Muslims. Back in 2011, France became the first European country
to outlaw the public wearing of burqas and niqabs. Others have followed.
Belgium has banned them. The Netherlands recently prohibited them from public buildings like schools and hospitals. Now German lawmakers are
discussing plans to do the same.
GORANI: Let's talk about this. It's a hot issue and as I was mentioning before everyone has an opinion. Huda Jawad opposes the burkini ban. She's
an activist and writer and community coordinator at Standing Together Against Domestic Violence. Thanks for being with us.
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown is a founding member of British Muslims for Secular Democracy. She's spoken out not necessarily against the ban itself, but
certainly against the burkini as an outfit.
Let me start with you, you've called the ban misogynistic and you said it's about racism and discrimination. Why?
HUDA JAWAD, STANDING TOGETHER AGAINST DOMESTIC VIOLENCE: Well, I think that the idea that men can tell women what to wear and what not to wear is
really harking back to the kind of worst stereotypes we have about misogyny and I think it's important that we as people who appreciate and value
democracy and liberalism talk about the idea that no state particularly men in this context tell women what to wear or take away the choice of wearing
something or not.
YASMIN ALIBHAI-BROWN, COLUMNIST, "INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS TIMES": The whole point is, Huda, that so much of this covering up -- I have to say I'm
against the ban.
[15:40:07]I'm against this awful behavior some of the European nations and their police by criminalizing women. I'm completely against it and I think
GORANI: But you don't like the burkini. You call some of it pernicious creeping --
ALIBHAI-BROWN: I don't agree with the ban, I want to make it absolutely certain -- clear. But this idea that men telling women what to wear,
that's what's happened in the Muslim world. My mother wore a swimsuit. My mother never veiled. What happened in the 15 years that women now feel
like they're a kind of menace in the public space, their bodies are?
GORANI: How do you respond to that? Because I've heard many people say this idea somehow that you must cover up all the time is over sexualizing
in a way the female body, any bit of it must be offensive. How do you react to that?
JAWAD: I think what I'm saying is that if we're talking about giving women a choice of what to wear, surely that cannot be a restriction of their
rights. To actually de-robe women is just as enforcing women to wear the burqa. I am -- I don't care what people wear to the beach. It's
completely an option of choice.
But is that what liberal democracy looks like in Europe in 2016? You know, five armed men, a policeman asking a woman who is sitting on the beach
trying to be as French as anybody, wearing a hijab to publicly take her clothes off in front of a crown and in humiliation. I don't think that's
ALIBHAI-BROWN: You're right about that. Nobody should do that, but equally, when you say it's a choice, there's absolutely no evidence that
all the women who are covering themselves up in one way or another way, the burkini, are making a free choice. We now have six-month-old babies for
whom we can buy a hijab. They're in training. There's only once choice they will make.
JAWAD: I would argue that there is no evidence to say that everyone that wears the burkini is forced to wear it.
ALIBHAI-BROWN: Many of them are. To say it's only a question of choice is disingenuous.
GORANI: How do you respond to that --
JAWAD: To argue that somehow we are emancipating women by forcing them and telling them what to wear surely is an absurdity. Surely it is about
allowing -- the assumption is that Muslim women cannot make choices. Isn't that an underlying of racism? Because you are brown and because white men
tell brown women what to wear and that's fine. That's emancipation. But if a brown man tells a woman what to wear, that's misogyny and I don't
agree with that.
GORANI: But Yasmin, you say you don't like the burkini. The head scarf makes you sad even, but why is that? Why are some of these outfits that
some women freely choose to wear because they want to be modest, why are they upsetting to you as a Muslim woman?
ALIBHAI-BROWN: I'm just as critical of boob tubes for little girls and the over-sexualized clothes that teenagers wear in this country. I think that
the fact that we're not -- the abuse I get as a Muslim woman for not covering up is something to behold. So this --
GORANI: You get abused because you don't cover up as a Muslim?
ALIBHAI-BROWN: All the time. All the time. I was walking through the area of Bradford. They didn't know that I understand their language and
the abuse was astonishing. I was a slut because I wasn't covered up. So this idea that the bad guys are on one side and the good guys on the other,
it really isn't correct.
GORANI: What about you as a Muslim woman when you hear Yasmin say that they are so much peer pressure, that people sometimes, especially men,
abuse verbally women and I've heard that before, Muslim women for not a head scarf. How do you respond to that?
JAWAD: I find that's sad. It's unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable. I work with women who are forced into all sorts of situation and violence and
sexual violence and coercion and they feel that a state banning their idea of clothing is not helpful. It's isolating and exclusionary and adds to
the idea that somehow Muslim women are there to be used by the political classes, by ideologues to score political points.
ALIBHAI-BROWN: On both sides.
JAWAD: Absolutely. We can't be both the victims that need to be emancipated and oppressors and aggressors for wearing the burkini.
GORANI: You're right. One of the things though and I've read this a lot, and that this idea somehow that women shouldn't even wear the niqub and
that's illegal in France, that that's really giving ISIS a gift, right?
ALIBHAI-BROWN: Yes, yes.
GORANI: This sort of this idea that Muslims are persecuted, that they are victimized. Look, we told you that Europeans are going to victimize your
women and here you go. Here's the proof.
ALIBHAI-BROWN: What's happening in Europe is absolutely a recruitment exercise for ISIS, no doubt. But I still insist that we need to be much
more honest about what is happening to Muslim women. Why is it in Egypt, Morocco, everywhere --
[15:45:11]GORANI: What is it?
ALIBHAI-BROWN: I think it's a Saudi influence, frankly. You know, we have to be able to talk about this. These actions make it impossible for us to
talk about them properly because, of course, what's happening in France is obnoxious.
GORANI: Yes. Huda, let me ask you this. I was in France just recently and I heard from some non-Muslim French people say, you know what? Muslims
need to integrate better. We had an attack in Nice, 87 people were mowed down in a massacre in the name of Islam, and we all know these are
extremist lunatics. We are not saying they are mainstream Muslims. But then why at that point 20 meters away does this lady feel that she needs in
burkini to come sit on the beach? I'm just telling you what I'm hearing from French people.
JAWAD: Sure. I think what's really interesting about this debate is that France has set itself up to identify with French values in a very
particular way as against anything to do with Islam. So the idea that French Muslims may choose to have a different interpretation or involve the
French identity to include religious symbols is completely unacceptable.
I think what this debate has highlighted is that the French government's policy of forcing women particularly Muslim women to choose between
communitarian identity and French secularism is not helpful.
GORANI: I want to ask you, though, about the niqab, that's an entirely -- do you oppose or support the ban on the niqab, the full face --
JAWAD: I oppose any lack of choice -- I may not personally agree with wearing of the niqab, but I feel that in a liberal democracy, there is no
room for men telling women what to wear.
ALIBHAI-BROWN: I think liberal democracy --
GORANI: That is happening in Germany now, by the way.
ALIBHAI-BROWN: -- cannot be used and it has been what entirely illiberal purposes and I think in public spaces, in public jobs. It's absolutely
right that people should show their faces and have a dress code absolutely and I approve of the ban on head scarves in schools.
GORANI: All right. Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, Huda Jawad, thanks to both of you. Really interesting conversation. I appreciate you both coming on.
Don't forget. You can catch this interview on our Facebook page, Facebook.com/halagoranicnn. We'll have a quick break and we'll be right.
Stay with CNN.
GORANI: All this week the CNN Freedom Project is looking into the epidemic of sex trafficking in Canada's indigenous communities.
[15:50:01]Now, many of the young people who fall victim of traffickers come from extremely remote villages. CNN's Paula Newton traveled to Canada's
far north to visit a town where schools are trying to work to get the issue out in the open.
PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The journey alone transported the mind. A prop plane traveling to Northern Manitoba takes us
into the spiritual heartland of most indigenous communities here. But the beauty (inaudible) of isolation, poverty, and discrimination.
We land in Norway area where many indigenous communities are fiercely proud of their inheritance, but undeniably scarred by decades of vulnerability
We witness a first here, an indigenous community that says it is confronting the issue of child exploitation after decades of denial by
bringing an anti-trafficking education program right into its schools.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're here to do a presentation with you today on sexual exploitation.
NEWTON: Samantha Folster (ph) and Gilbert Fredette (ph) are a determined team.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The first step in rebuilding our community is to say enough is enough.
NEWTON: Both community leaders trained by the Manitoba government to create a curriculum-based program where kids hear how and why child sexual
exploitation has traumatized their community.
SAMANTHA FOLSTER, COUNCILOR, NORWAY HOUSE CREE NATION: I don't it's ever been talked about that way. It's more like, let's not talk about it.
Let's just save it. Let's save it under the rug and let it stay there. It's the fear of speaking about it and the shame that comes with it and the
guilt of feeling that maybe this was my fault.
GILBERT FREDETTE, DEPUTY CHIEF, NORWAY HOUSE CREE NATION: It's the right time now to open the doors and get those skeletons out of the closet and
start talking about these issues within our own community. If we don't do that, we are not going to not be part of the solution. We continue to be
part of the problems.
NEWTON: The solution they say must begin in the classroom. The first step towards prevention kids get a detailed account of how they might be lured
and candid reasons for why they may be vulnerable as indigenous youth. School counselor says the frankness of the discussion is what makes it
meaningful and effective.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think putting the words to it and naming it and saying this is what is called. This is sexual exploitation. This is human
trafficking and this is what happens and I think the kids are like, OK, that's what that is, OK. You know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The difference now is we are talking about it. I mean, you know, we have plans (inaudible) community, which we never had before.
NEWTON: Ron Evans is the chief at Norway House. He says a legacy of addiction, violence and abuse means many children are not living with their
families but are instead in government care.
(on camera): So how does it compromise communities like this one?
RON EVANS, CHIEF, NORWAY HOUSE CREE NATION: Well, we have an issue with our children. We have a high number of children in our care. It makes our
communities very vulnerable that way for predators to take advantage of our children.
NEWTON (voice-over): Changing that will take years of community involvement. At a local fish fry families get together, share a laugh and
a song. All of it helps with instilling optimism here, a belief that things can and will change for the children of Norway House.
FOLSTER: We need to let them that it's wrong, let them know that it's not their fault, not to feel shame, because it's not their fault. How is it
that we can heal as a community?
NEWTON: There is tentative optimism here now that with slow but steady education and awareness, places like Norway House will be a strong refuge
for indigenous youth restoring it as the heartland it once was for its elders. Paula Newton, CNN, Norway House Cree Nation, Manitoba.
GORANI: Well, tomorrow, we will introduce you to Lauren and the safe lodge that saved her life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: For months this rule healing lodge has sheltered Lauren (inaudible) encradled her with the love and protection she still needed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Before I moved here, I used to blame myself and even during the time I was living here, I used to blame myself. For breathing,
I would say, I let them do that to me, I'm dirty. It's my fault.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: More on her courageous story of survival on the "Freedom Project" series "Canada's Stolen Daughters" on CNN.
GORANI: All right, let's leave you with one last look at the devastation left behind after a powerful earthquake rocked Central Italy. Take a look
at some of these drone footage. It says it all. The scene resembles a war zone with entire villages flattened, towns blocked off, trapping people on
the debris, but amid the horror, there were small glimmers of hope overnight.
GORANI: Trying to reassure that person. They're terrified. A rescuer comforting a woman still trapped under the rubble.
All right. I'm Hala Gorani. This has been THE WORLD RIGHT NOW. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next.