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Trump Announces Immigration Speech Set For Wednesday; Pence: Racism Accusations "Sound Desperate"; Two Men Charged In Killing Of NBA Star's Cousin; Trump Trails with Catholics; Aftershocks Delaying Recovery Efforts in Italy. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired August 28, 2016 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:00:09] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Sciutto, in for Poppy Harlow today. The wait for new details on Donald Trump's immigration policy could soon be over. Moments ago, just moments ago, Trump tweeted quote, I will be making a major speech on illegal immigration on Wednesday in the great state of Arizona. Big crowds, looking for a larger venue.

Trump recently suggested that he might soften his original stance, that was his word, on deporting all of the approximately 11 million undocumented immigrants in this country. I want to bring in Dianne Gallagher. So Dianne, what are you hearing now about his plan for the speech on Wednesday and what he hopes to accomplish?

DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, Jim, this has sort of been the speech everyone's been waiting for ever since Donald Trump's position on immigration became a bit murkier over the past couple weeks here. Many people have wondered, is this going to be what he talks about? Is it not going to be? It's gone back and forth. Trump indicated over the next couple of weeks, he would lay out this immigration plan. Specifically, the question is whether or not he wants to employ a deportation force to get rid of all of the undocumented immigrants here in the United States.

Now, he has solidified the fact that he A, wants to build a wall. He says that on day one, in some cases he says hour one, he wants to get rid of what he calls the bad dudes, the people who have committed crimes after arriving here illegally. But the question remains on what he wants to do with everybody else, those who haven't committed crimes after coming here undocumented. That's when he indicated to Fox News that maybe he would soften a bit, but then told our Anderson Cooper, maybe some people might think he's hardening on it. So the hope for many is that he's going to clarify his position and really let people know what he wants to do with those 11 million undocumented people here.

SCIUTTO: All right. The fact is, last week, he said two different things, in effect, on that issue of deportation. Now, Donald Trump, also again via Twitter, offered a challenge to Hillary Clinton. What is he challenging her to now?

GALLAGHER: He's challenging her to release her detailed medical records, saying that he thinks both candidates, himself included, he said, should release these detailed medical records. You might remember that there was a little bit of controversy, confusion, around the letter that was received by his doctor, some of the language that was used, saying that he had amazing health and impeccable health, and the doctor admitted that he had thought about it all day. He was working on it, but at the very end, he just felt a lot of pressure. He kind of put it all together in the last five minutes, maybe had adopted some of the language that the campaign uses, some of those adjectives Donald Trump is known for using there. So this could mean that we might be able to see a more detailed version of Donald Trump's health versus just saying that he could be the fittest person ever to be president.

SCIUTTO: That's right. So far, there's been somewhat more detail from Hillary Clinton, including naming some physical conditions, but his challenge now exposes for even more detail. Dianne Gallagher, thanks very much.

Let's talk about this now with my panel. We have Basil Smikle. He's the Executive Director of the New York State Democratic Party. Also with us, CNN Political Commentator and Trump Supporter, Jeffrey Lord. Jeff, are you concerned, as we're roughly seven [sic] days away from election day, that Trump is still having to explain what his immigration policy is?

LORD: No. Seventy days from election day. No, I'm not at all. And note where he's going to do this. He's going to go to Arizona, which has had significant problems with illegal immigration. He's not going to one of the states of the union where there has been no problems with this, which indicates his ability to, his willingness to confront a problem, confront it head on and go directly there and talk about the situation. So I think this is all to the good.

SCIUTTO: OK, Basil, we could stop debating whether he changed his stance, but let me ask you this. If he does soften and sticks with that and pulls back from this initial claim early on in his campaign, repeated that he would deport all 11 million undocumented workers in the U.S. -- if he does that, moves a bit more to the middle, does that make him a more formidable challenge to Hillary Clinton?

BASIL SMIKLE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NEW YORK STATE DEMOCRATIC PARTY: No, I don't believe that to be the case at all. If we go back a couple of months, actually, to late last year when you talked about banning Muslims and then come May, he said, oh, it was just a suggestion, and I think that's sort of at the core of where we are 70 days out, which is, even if he does soften his tone, or what could be perceived that way by some, the question is, do voters actually believe him? And I don't think that they will. I think that immigration clearly has been discussed in the last several years by both Democrats and Republicans looking for some sort of pathway to engage the 11 million plus who are undocumented, and others in this country, dreamers as well.

But you can't 70 days out just say, you know what, now I have a plan and a strategy, and expect people to say, OK, well, we didn't believe everything you said heretofore, but now we will take your word that you will actually do something significant. I just don't think voters will believe him at this juncture. [20:05:16] SCIUTTO: Jeffrey, let me ask you -- part of his appeal is that he's a straight talker. Why not say, listen, I've thought about it, I've talked to a lot of people -- this is in effect what he said in that Fox interview with Hannity last week is, I've talked to a lot of voters, they're good people, they told me that this is too tough a position and I've reconsidered. Why not -- I mean, politicians do that all the time, people running for office. Why not say, listen, you know what, I did it in good faith. I proposed this in good faith. I think it's better now to do X instead of Y.

LORD: I don't think that's what he believes, Jim. I mean, he's not going to say something he doesn't believe. We see in these polls that 68 to 70 percent of the people in this country want change, and one of the things they want change on is illegal immigration.

SCIUTTO: But most do not support mass deportation, to be fair.

LORD: But they want the country to have borders that if you come over this border of the United States, you just can't settle in. You have to come legally. Rush Limbaugh had a great suggestion about this to test the willingness of my friend Basil and others, let them come, but give them a path to citizenship, but they can't vote for 25 years or so. That would be an interesting proposition to see what the reaction is.

SCIUTTO: So you say, people come in the country but not have the right to vote?

LORD: Yes, for 25 years or so. If they've come illegally, right, that they don't get the right to vote in America for 25 years.

SCIUTTO: You're saying if they come in illegally. Basil, what's your response?

SMIKLE: I have no response to that. That doesn't sound like a legitimate or reasonable policy strategy --

LORD: Aha!

SMIKLE: -- and that to me -- I think that's the cornerstone of this discussion, which is that, what is going to be a legitimate policy to engage the families that are here currently? And to me, I don't think Donald Trump has engaged these families or activists in this field in a way that is meaningful, because if he's -- whatever he says today, my guess is, come election day, we'll see another flip flop maybe two or three times over, and better yet, in the unlikely event, in my opinion, that he gets elected, what happens when his supporters come to him and say, this is not what you ran on, this is not why we supported you, so you need to pull back on those positions. We understand you just wanted to get elected. Now we need you to sort of fall back. That, I think, is the fear with this sort of so-called new position that he's taking.

(CROSSTALK)

LORD: -- Donald Trump on immigration is the same as Hillary Clinton on the TPP where she has switched positions exactly.

SCIUTTO: I was going to bring that up, Basil. Why is that -- this is one reason why I ask you that question, Jeffrey, is that people running for office change positions all the time. Why -- we saw Hillary Clinton, I brought this up in the last hour, on TPP, change that position, in part because of Bernie Sanders' support on that issue, anti-trade. Why doesn't Donald Trump pick a page out of that book? It's worked for other people running for office. Jeffrey --

LORD: Oh, I 'm sorry, I thought you were asking Basil.

SCIUTTO: Well, I'll ask both of you there, but I'm asking you about your candidate's position on immigration. Why not come out and say, listen, I've rethought this, and I'm dialing it back a bit?

LORD: Sure, Jim. Because I think he has very strong beliefs on this. I mean, I've talked to him about this problem over the last couple years, off and on. These are his beliefs. He's not doing this for quote unquote political reasons. The belief precedes the politics.

(CROSSTALK)

SMIKLE: But why are we talking about it only 70 days out? If these were hard-felt, hard beliefs of his, you would have heard a strategy a year ago or more. But it seems that what he's doing is somebody said to him, you know what, you need to start going to communities of color. You need to start talking about immigration, because you need a certain percentage of the vote to win, so we're seeing these sort of lackluster and half-hearted attempts at addressing these issues.

SCIUTTO: Jeff, I'll give you the final word before we go.

LORD: Yes. I think he has been doing it. And in terms of communities of color, as you put, more parts of America, as I put it, I think he will be in Detroit with Dr. Ben Carson somewhere in the near future.

(LAUGHTER)

SCIUTTO: Basil Smikle, Jeffrey Lord -- we'll look for that event. Basil Smikle, Jeffrey Lord, thanks very much.

Wednesday, we will finally hear, as we were just talking about there, Donald Trump's plan on the subject of immigration. Trump's running mate, Indiana Governor, Mike Pence, sat down for an exclusive interview this morning with my colleague Jake Tapper on "STATE OF THE UNION".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[20:10:00] JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: So let's start with this issue, the estimated 11 or so million undocumented immigrants currently in the United States. This is what Mr. Trump promised back in November. Take a listen.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're going to have a deportation force and you're going to do it humanely --

MIKA BRZEZINSKI, TELEVISION HOST, MSNBC: Are they going to get ripped out of their homes? How?

TRUMP: Can I tell you -- they're going back where they came. If they came from a certain country, they're going to be brought back to that country. That's the way it's supposed to be.

TAPPER: So, Mr. Trump has been saying that on day one, the violence undocumented immigrants will leave the country. But what about the rest? What happens to the other 11 or so million, however many there are -- will there be a deportation force removing these individuals from the United States?

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R-IN), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Well, first off, let's be very clear. Nothing has changed about Donald Trump's position on dealing with illegal immigration. He put this issue at the center of his presidential campaign in the Republican primaries, and his position and his principles have been absolutely consistent. We're going to secure the border, we're going to build a wall, a physical barrier, we're going to enforce the laws of this country, end (ph) sanctuary cities, implement e-verify, and we will have a mechanism for dealing with people in this country that, you heard the word humanely again. It's going to be fair, it's going to be tough, but there will be no path to legalization, no path to citizenship, unless people leave the country. He said that very consistently.

The contrast with Hillary Clinton, who supports amnesty, open borders, who wants to implement executive amnesty again on day one, even though the Supreme Court of the United States rejected it, and Hillary Clinton, who wants to increase refugees from the terrorist-torn country of Syria, by 550 percent, the choice could not be more clear for the American people. Donald Trump has been completely consistent in his positions, Jake.

TAPPER: Except on this issue, I understand everything you're saying there, but the one issue that you didn't really address is whether or not the 11 or 12 million undocumented immigrants will be removed by a deportation force as you heard Mr. Trump saying in that clip from November of last year. Is that policy still operative?

PENCE: Well, what you heard him describe there in his usual plainspoken, American way, was a mechanism, not a policy. You're going to hear more detail in the next two weeks that lays out all the policies, but there will be no change in the principle here that Donald Trump wants to make it clear to the American people that while Hillary Clinton is committed to open borders and amnesty, executive amnesty, and more of the same that has really harmed our economy, and frankly, as he said, with regard to the dangerous individuals in this country, has cost American lives.

When I was in Iowa, I met with Sarah Roots' family. The heartbreak of Sarah Roots' story and other stories of families whose children have lost their lives to people who are in this country, dangerous individuals, who are caught up in this broken system and then escape justice, as the man that claimed her life did, is going to end under the administration of Donald Trump.

TAPPER: I get that the violent illegal immigrants will be removed from the country. But what I'm not hearing, and I'm wondering, the people out there -- and look, it's not just the liberal media, right. It's also conservatives. It's Rush Limbaugh, it's Governor Sarah Palin, it's other people who want Donald Trump to win who are saying, wow, it sounds like he's really backing away from this deportation force, removing 11 million -- and you're not saying right now, Governor, you're not saying, you're not pledging that there will be a removal of all undocumented immigrants. You're not saying that.

PENCE: No. What I'm saying, Jake, what I said to you a minute ago, I want to be very clear -- there will be no path to legalization, no path to citizenship. People that want to gain legal status, you heard Donald Trump say again and again, will have to leave the country.

TAPPER: Right. But what about the millions in this country right now? What happens to them?

PENCE: I think Donald Trump will articulate what we do with the people who are here, but I promise you --

TAPPER: But he already articulated it.

PENCE: -- Donald Trump is more concerned about the American people, American citizens, people who are here legally, people that are struggling in this economy.

TAPPER: I want to turn to Hillary Clinton and some of the really tough charges going back and forth between your campaign and her campaign. She said this week, Donald Trump is helping a radical fringe take over the Republican Party, and take a listen to what your counterpart, Senator Tim Kaine, had to say just on Friday.

SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Ku Klux Klan values, David Duke values, Donald Trump values are not American values.

TAPPER: What's your response to Senator Kaine?

PENCE: I think Senator Kaine's comments, Hillary Clinton's comments on Thursday night sound desperate to me. To be honest with you, I don't talk a lot about the polls, Jake, but I know the polls are all closing up, and the fact that you see Democrats and Hillary Clinton and her running mate rolling out the same old playbook of racial devices, sounds a little bit to me like an act of desperation. Look, the American people are sick and tired of politicians who seek to divide the people of this country to united their supporters.

[20:15:12] TAPPER: Donald Trump, he called Hillary Clinton a bigot.

PENCE: Donald Trump has been reaching out --

TAPPER: Well you just accused her of dividing people. He accused her of being a bigot. PENCE: Well, look, that was on the day that Hillary Clinton literally condemned not just Donald Trump by the same terms, but also millions of Americans who longed for a better future.

TAPPER: You think she was calling all Trump supporters racists?

PENCE: I think she was calling millions of Americans around this country who believe we can make American great again, who believe that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama's policies have weakened America's place in the world and stifled America's economy. She's put some sort of racist intention on those Americans. I think that's deeply offensive. But here's the thing -- the American people see right through it these days. And what you have in Donald Trump is someone who's reaching out, speaking boldly from the party of Lincoln, particularly to African-Americans and Latinos in this country and saying, it doesn't have to be this way. It can be better. Think of the heartbreak in these communities, to be living in our inner cities, which many African-American families for now generations have been in neighborhoods with failing schools, unsafe streets, no jobs and opportunities.

We're standing today on the 53rd anniversary of the "I have a dream" speech. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. is one of the heroes of my youth. I walked across the Edmud Pettus Bridge with John Lewis on the 45th anniversary of Bloody Sunday (ph). I think the progress in civil rights movement is one of the great accomplishments of America.

TAPPER: That said -- so I understand that that means a lot to you, but the reason --

PENCE: Look at the reality of the minority community today in many of our cities. I was walking through neighborhoods in Indianapolis just a few short weeks ago before this opportunity came into my life, with Reverend Charles Harrison, part of the 10 point coalition. He's staying with families on their front porches. They will tell you, the schools are failing, and they won't give us educational choice. The streets aren't safe and we get no change, and there's no jobs. Donald Trump believes we can make America great again for every American, regardless of race or creed or color, and the only answer Hillary Clinton and her running mate have is more of the same kind of racial divisiveness and racial attacks, and I really think it's beneath the dignity --

TAPPER: With all due respect, sir, the reason that Tim Kaine said what he said is because David Duke is supporting your campaign. Take a listen.

DAVID DUKE, FORMER GRAND WIZARD, KU KLUX KLAN: I'm overjoyed to see Donald Trump, and most Americans, embrace most of the issues that I've championed for years.

TAPPER: That must really bother you.

PENCE: It does really bother me. And Donald Trump made it clear repeatedly this week, not only has he denounced David Duke, but we don't want the support of people who think like David Duke. Look, people see the choreography, Jake. You and I have known each other a while. Hillary Clinton -- not on that, but on the two speeches. Hillary Clinton has a really tough week, right. Fifteen-thousand e- mails coming out, you have the Clinton Foundation, more and more of the cascade of controversies coming out of here with the Clintons ducking and weaving and not answering questions, more than 250 days since the press conference.

So all of the sudden, here it comes. They roll out the politics of division with a speech Thursday night, and then her running mate comes out with these outrageous charges. I mean, the fact that an individual, contemptible individual like that supports my running mate is no more relevant than the fact that the father of a man who killed 49 people in Orlando, Florida, was cheering Hillary Clinton in one of her rallies.

(END VIDO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: That was Trump's vice presidential candidate, Mike Pence, on "STATE OF THE UNION". And coming up -- the words of a mother who lost her daughter to street violence in Chicago. Powerful, her heartbreaking interview. That's next. You don't want to miss this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:22:11] SCIUTTO: Turning now back to Chicago, where a family is coming to grips with the horrible reality that a loved one is suddenly gone and gone forever. You're looking at a Sunday vigil for Nakiya Aldridge who was shot and killed on a Chicago street Friday while pushing her newborn baby in a stroller. She was the cousin, you may remember, of NBA star Dwyane Wade. Two men, brothers, are locked up right now, charged in that fatal shooting. Police say Aldridge was not their intended target. They say that Darwin Sorrells Jr. and Derren Sorrells were shooting at another man when Aldridge was caught in their crossfire. Authorities say the brothers are career criminals and that they were on parole at the time of the killing. CNN's Rachel Crane, she's been following this story. She joins me now live from Chicago.

Rachel, you had the chance to sit down with Nakiya's mother. Tell us how that was and what she wants our viewers to know about her daughter.

RACHEL CRANE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Jim, it was very moving having this conversation with Diann, Nakiya's mother. She said that she wanted to celebrate Nakiya's life. She described her daughter as simply awesome. She says that she was a fashionista, that she loved doing her hair. She was obsessed with the color purple, and her four children were her entire life. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DIANN ALDRIDGE, MOTHER OF SHOOTING VICTIM: Nakiya was an awesome, awesome daughter. She lover her kids, loved her kids, and I can go on and on about Nakiya being an awesome mom, trying to move ahead with the kids and move them to better areas. She was just trying to make a better life for her and the kids. That's the most important thing in her life was her kids, to make sure they got out of situations that she had been in. That's my baby.

Summer, the oldest girl, it really hit her really hard. And her son, Senseer (ph), he's a momma's boy, so it hit him too. Chavey (ph), the second to the last child, she is so strong. She is really strong. It's just, they support each other. They cry to each other. They tell each other, they miss they mom, they want their mom.

[20:24:59] It just hurts to hear kids saying they want their mom, and their mom won't be in their lives anymore. Only through spirit. Only through pictures. That's the only way they know their mom for the rest of their lives. The only thing they have to go on is what they had. And it's just heartbreaking. (SOBBING) Oh god, it's heartbreaking. (inaudible) to raise her own children. And I thank God right now for allowing her to be in our lives as long as he did. I thank God for it, and I thank God for the kids, because it's going to take all of us to raise her, like I said, it takes a village to raise a kid, and that's what we are. We are a village.

And I truly, truly, from the bottom of my heart, I forgive them. I forgive them. I can't bring her back, but I forgive them, and I just pray to God that they pray to God to ask for forgiveness for what they've done. They've taken a person's life. And I just love them (ph).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CRANE: Jim, truly heartbreaking hearing the pain that this mother is going through, and just remarkable that she has a message of forgiveness for the men who committed this horrible crime, and unfortunately, this is not the first time that Diann has had to go through this kind of grief. Her daughter, her eldest daughter, was also killed 10 years ago from gun violence. Jim --

SCIUTTO: Police told us, in the last 24 hours, 4 more people killed in Chicago, 24 more people injured. Just since this crime happened. Rachel Crane, thanks for being there for us.

Moving now to politics -- did Donald Trump's spat with Pope Francis, you may remember it, drive away Catholic voters? A new poll shows that it may have. He's trailing Hillary Clinton by double digits in that particularly important voting block. Coming up, why it is critical that he try to win them back. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:31:03] SCIUTTO: One of Donald Trump's biggest problems this campaign season may be with a certain religious voting bloc. A new poll from Public Religion Research Institute finds that Trump trails Hillary Clinton by 23 percentage votes among registered Catholic voters.

Back in 2012, Republican Mitt Romney lost the Catholic vote by only 2 percent to President Obama. Romney took 48 percent, Obama won 50 percent. Of course, Obama won that election. Something that could be hurting Trump, his feud with Pope Francis back in February. The pope said Trump was "not Christian" if he wants to build a wall

along the U.S.-Mexican border. Trump fired back calling the pope's comment disgraceful for questioning his faith. He said a few other things as well.

Let's talk about it with our panel, senior Vatican analyst John Allen, he is in Rome; and Larry Sabato, he's director of the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia, he's author of "The Kennedy Half Century.

So, Larry, about the Catholic vote, how big a voting -- how important, rather, a voting bloc, and are there particular state races, particularly toss-up state races where the Catholic vote could be decisive?

LARRY SABATO, CENTER FOR POLITICS, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Well, it's very important. In fact, Catholics are a full 25 percent of the American electorate. And what's remarkable, Jim, about the numbers you just gave us is that the Catholic vote in recent years, not back in 1960 when 80 percent of Catholics voted for John F. Kennedy, in recent years the Catholic vote has tracked the national vote almost exactly.

It voted for George W. Bush early in 2004 and then, as you mentioned, Barack Obama in both 2008 and 2012 by about the national margin. So this is really remarkable. I think it's partly attributable to the fact that a third of American Catholics are now Hispanics. And as we know, Trump is doing very poorly with Hispanics.

And also among American Catholics, they are much more likely to be either immigrants or the children of immigrants compared to the whole population. And again, Donald Trump's main issue has been immigration.

So it's a combination of everything and, yes, maybe he should make a pilgrimage to see Pope Francis. That's another piece of this.

SCIUTTO: So I want to read part of Donald Trump's statement responding to Pope Francis. This is from February 18th this year. Pretty strong. He said: "If and when the Vatican is attacked by ISIS, which, as everyone knows, is ISIS's ultimate trophy, I can promise you that the pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been president because this would not have happened."

John, I'm just curious, the Vatican does not like to play politics, but I'm sure it's used to politics. What was the reaction there to that kind of charge, that kind of language from the man who is now the Republican nominee for president?

JOHN ALLEN, CNN SENIOR VATICAN ANALYST: Well, of course, Trump later walked that back saying that, in his view, the pope's original comments had been overhyped and that once he read the full text, he was less perturbed.

But look, the practical reality is that Donald Trump -- and I think any Catholic with eyes can see this, Donald Trump simply is not a Pope Francis kind of guy. Pope Francis, you know, his mantra is that we need to be building bridges, not walls.

The care of immigrants, particularly in the context of Europe's refugee crisis, has become one of his signature social and political issues. In addition, we haven't talked about this yet, but Pope Francis is also hugely concerned with the environment.

He actually for the very first time in the history of the Catholic Church put out an entire papal encyclical letter devoted to the care for creation, called Laudato si'. It's another point where he and Trump just quite clearly do not see eye to eye.

And I think Trump's gambit here in terms of trying to close this gap with the Catholic vote, I -- frankly, I'm skeptical that he's going to be able to reach out to the die hard ardent Pope Francis kind of Catholic for whom social justice, concern for the poor, concern for the immigrant, concern for the environment are their top issues.

I think he may have better luck trying to move in the opposite direction and appeal to conservative Catholic voters who are most concerned with life issues, that is abortion, euthanasia, contraception, those -- that cluster of issues where clearly they are never going to embrace Hillary Clinton.

The issue is whether Trump can project enough credibility with that constituency to be able to help close the gap.

SCIUTTO: So, Larry, looking at the state and it really is less about the national vote than about state vote, particularly battleground states, are there particular states where the Catholic vote can be the deciding factor?

SABATO: Well, you could make an argument that any state in the Northeast or Midwest with a large percentage of Catholics, these issues, this cluster of issues could be important and Catholics could swing the vote.

Catholics are not nearly as much of a factor in the South, but I tell you where this is having an impact is Colorado, both the growth and the number of Hispanics who are registered and voting and, of course, the vast majority of them are practicing Catholics. I do think it has had an impact in Colorado.

SCIUTTO: John, of course, a key proposal of Donald Trump was his proposed ban on Muslims entering the U.S. He has since changed that position somewhat to say from countries with a history of terrorism, which includes many Muslim countries but not confined to them. How does that ban proposal play with Catholic voters?

ALLEN: Well, you know, Catholics are not a monolith. I mean, as Larry was saying, Catholics tend to reflect the overall population, which means you've got a strong conservative wing, you've got a strong liberal wing, you've got people in the middle.

So it depends which Catholics we're talking about. But in general I would say that Trump's position does not track particularly well with Catholic attitudes on this sort of thing. I mean, let's remember, Pope Francis is a guy who, when we went to the

Greek island of Lesbos last April, which is a primary point of arrival for new refugees in Europe, he brought 12 Syrian Muslim refugees back with him on the papal plane to Rome.

He settled them in Italy using the support of a Catholic organization called Sant'Egidio. He has repeatedly reached out to new Muslim arrivals that are in Europe and also in the United States.

And so, in general, I think if you were taking Pope Francis's leadership seriously on this issue, then there are quite clearly some points at which candidate Trump simply does not line up.

SCIUTTO: We had the pope also encourage, I think, every parish in the U.S. to take some Syrian refugees. John Allen, Larry Sabato, thanks very much for walking us through it.

Still to come, crews searching for Italy's earthquake victims forced to run for safety as strong aftershocks continue to hit the region. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Italian search crews are trying to find everyone buried under the rubble after the devastating earthquake there. But aftershocks are forcing them to stop, get out themselves. Officials now say at least 291 people have died. Senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen has the latest from one of the hardest-hit areas.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The authorities here in Italy say that the operations that are ongoing, especially in the town of Amatrice, which, of course, is the one that was most affected by the earthquake, are turning less and less into search and rescue operations and more and more into recovery operations.

They say at this point in time it would be nothing short of a miracle if anybody were still found alive underneath the rubble. And we want to show you some of the damage that this earthquake has caused and that its aftershocks continue to cause.

This is the school in Amatrice. And it was badly damaged in that initial 6.2 magnitude earthquake. And what happened is that on Sunday there was another major aftershock here in this town, and that caused an additional part of this building to collapse.

Further areas had to be evacuated and cordoned off. And it's something that we see very frequently here in this town and it really hampers the search efforts that are going on, is that there are very frequent aftershocks.

When these aftershocks happen, what happens then is that the rescue crews have to abandon their work, they have to evacuate the area, and then have to see whether or not it's safe for them to continue.

So it's very difficult work for them because, of course, every time there is an aftershock, the rubble can shift and make things more dangerous for the rescue crews.

Again, at this point in time they say it's highly unlikely that there are going to find any more survivors. But they also say that here in Amatrice, they are sure that there are still bodies buried underneath the rubble. So that's certainly something they're taking into consideration. They simply haven't been able to get to all of them just yet.

Needless to say that the population here that survived the earthquake very much traumatized by the events that happened. And there are some figures to illustrate why. This entire area of Italy sank by about 20 centimeters, that's about eight inches when this earthquake happened.

And experts say that it unleashed the power of about 20 Hiroshima- sized bombs. So that's what the population here went through. And that's, of course, also one of the reasons why so many people are still so afraid of aftershocks that happen here quite frequently.

Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Amatrice, Italy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Imagine meeting a group of people who become your best friends to the exclusion of all others, then one day 22 years realize what you're really in is a cult. That's what the director of the CNN film "Holy Hell" says happened to him. We'll talk with him live, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: This Thursday a new CNN film follows a man in search of a spiritual awakening. Will Allen give up his life and family to join the Buddhafield. Now some former members say it was actually a cult. It is still active today in Hawaii. Take a look at this sneak preview of the CNN film called "Holy Hell."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was contemporary. He wasn't some little old man with a gray beard sitting in a doti (ph). He was wearing Speedos and Ray-Bans. And he was dancing and he was doing contemporary music.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He spoke four or five languages. He was amazingly humorous, witty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very playful, like a child. He could do something like, oh, my God, I can't believe he just did that. He could dance. He was artistic. He was all those things that we all wanted to be.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was unlike anyone I'd ever met before. He encouraged me to drop all my ideas of what I thought I was supposed to be. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I finally felt like I was in the right path. I

attended every meeting, every group outing we would take, and even went to Michel's weekly individual hypnotherapy sessions called "cleansings." I really felt like something important was happening in my life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: The director of this film, Will Allen, spent 22 years of his life following the Buddhafields guru from California to Austin, finally to Hawaii. He joins us now having left the group after he says he discovered the truth about its leader.

So, Will, you were in the inner circle of the Buddhafield, became the de facto videographer of the group, what did you make of this film?

WILL ALLEN, DIRECTOR, "HOLY HELL": What did I make of this film?

SCIUTTO: Why did you decide to make this film?

ALLEN: Well, you know, I got out of this group. And we all kind of went our own ways to try to heal ourselves and figure out what happened to us. Because we couldn't figure it out. And a few years after that I decided to talk to my friends and to make a film about it, and to ask them directly what happened to them.

Because up until then, no one really knew what was going on behind closed doors. And so I decided to take all the footage I had made during that period and tried to tell the truth. Tried to tell the full story.

During that time I was just kind of propaganda, showing the beautiful things. We weren't really talking about the negative things and the negative impressions that were going on.

SCIUTTO: CNN, to be clear, received a statement from the master of the group, Michel, who calls the film fiction. And I want to read the statement here.

He says: "It is heartbreaking to see how history has been rewritten. 'Holy Hell' is not a documentary, rather it is a work of fiction designed to create drama, fear, and persecution. That is what sells. I am saddened by this attempt to obscure the message of universal love and spiritual awakening. It is devastating to see these friends who were once so filled with love for the world become so angry. I wish them only the best and hold each one close to my heart. If any of my actions were catalyst for their disharmony, I am truly sorry."

How do you respond to that statement?

ALLEN: Well, I like the very last part about being sorry. It's finally nice to hear him say that. But none of us are lacking love, and none of us are disconnected from our teachings. And 100 people can't be wrong. You know, narcissists tend to never take responsibility or blame themselves. They can always blame other people. I went to great ends to try to tell the truth of what happened to me

in this film and my friends. And I took years and interviews to do it. And I think the film speaks best for who we are as people now, what we went through, and how we feel about this man.

SCIUTTO: Well, when people watch this film, they may ask the question, you were all adults, why didn't you feel you could leave earlier?

ALLEN: Well, that's something I also tried to study in this film. Why didn't we leave? Why don't people leave abusive relationships? Why do people stay in bad jobs? Why do people take abuse when they shouldn't?

I mean, we had a spiritual excuse. We were in the spiritual paradigm where we were surrendering our free will to him, or my will is your will. I mean, this is part of our -- the indoctrination that we went through, which I attribute a lot of our decision-making to, our lack of critical thinking, our surrendering our will over to this man that we trusted.

This is typical in all religions if you look at them, and it's parallel in a lot of relationships that are abusive. It's a human condition, and our situation is even more complicated, Jim, because we were on a spiritual path. He was our spiritual teacher. I don't use the word master, because he didn't master any of this.

But he was our spiritual teacher, borrowing knowledge, giving it to us. And he was also our hypnotherapist. And we were so young. We didn't know. I had no boundaries. I didn't know. I trusted him, you know?

And a lot of -- all of us did. And that's why we're all so angry.

SCIUTTO: Well, Will Allen, it's a fascinating story. Thanks for helping us tell our viewers. Don't miss this inside look into the Buddhafield journey for enlightenment and the consequences that followed. "Holy Hell" premieres this Thursday at 9:00 Eastern time only here on CNN.

We'll be right back tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: When Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump wake up on November 9th, one will be the president-elect and the other will have narrowly missed their shot. So how does it feel to be "almost" the most powerful person on earth. A new CNN special report taps into the agony of defeat.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMES CARVILLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Everybody wants you. And the day you lose, you're nothing. I mean, when they hit that light switch, oh, my God.

MITT ROMNEY (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm Mitt Romney. Nice to meet you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Who are these people?

MICHAEL DUKAKIS (D), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Good morning. How are you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not a normal thing to want to run for president.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who risk failing in front of the whole world?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the Super Bowl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who believe they have the grit.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm ready to go at it right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The ideas.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's the kind of America I want to build.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To lead this country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are people who are willing to go out into the public and get stripped naked, covered in mud, crawl over broken glass, and stand up and say, here I am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Putting themselves out there over and over again for years. Shaking hands. Kissing babies.

ROMNEY: Quarter pounder, without cheese.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wolfing down junk food, sleeping on planes.

There are days when the voters hate you.

MCCAIN: They get up and say, Senator McCain, I think you're a jerk. You hear from people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then, one night, they love you.

DUKAKIS: You are so struck by how special this country is. Thousands and thousands of people, they believe in you.

MCCAIN: Let there be no doubt, my friends. We're going to win this election.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So now you think it just might happen.

CARVILLE: You think you're going to win. You believe, and you have to. That's the nature of it.

BOB DOLE (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Ladies and gentlemen...

MCCAIN: ... I have a privilege given few Americans. DUKAKIS: I accept...

AL GORE (D), FORMER VICE PRESIDENT & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: ... your nomination...

JOHN KERRY (D), SECRETARY OF STATE, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: ... for president of...

DOLE: ... the United States.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: You do not want to forget CNN special report "Almost President: The Agony of Defeat," it airs this Wednesday at 9:00 Eastern time right here on CNN.

And up next on CNN tonight, 9:00 p.m. Eastern, a premiere of "THE HUNT WITH JOHN WALSH." And it's a new episode, "Murder Girl."

10:00, "DECLASSIFIED: UNTOLD STORIES OF AMERICAN SPIES: Red Storm Rising," naval secrets exposed.

At 11:00, another "DECLASSIFIED: The Taliban's Double Agent."

I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. Poppy Harlow is back next week. Thanks for joining me this weekend, and you have a great week.