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McCain's Primary Challenge; Presidential Debate Prep; Top ISIS Leader Reportedly Killed. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired August 30, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:02]

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): I imagine some people would say, why should we believe this man? He was a voice for hate and a voice for violence. Why should we believe him that he's changed?

JESSE CURTIS MORTON, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: I will just have to prove myself and deal with the questions that come as I go. Just, I have an enormous amount of guilty and regret. This is an opportunity for me to make amends to some degree.

COHEN: Have you forgiven yourself?

MORTON: I think yes. I have seen things that people have done, and to know that I once sort of sympathized and supported that view, it sickens me.

COHEN (voice-over): Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news here on CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

On terror here, one of ISIS' top leaders and the group's official spokesman has reportedly been killed.

Let me bring in a number of really important voices on this with CNN's international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson. I have CNN's national security correspondent, chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto, and Graeme Wood from "The Atlantic," who wrote one of the foremost essays on the evolution of ISIS entitled "What ISIS Really Wants."

So, Nic Robertson, first to you. Who is this person? I understand he was just one step away from the leader, al-Baghdadi. If al-Baghdadi had been killed, he would be the head of ISIS.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: I think there's one very simple way to say who he was. He was the mouthpiece of ISIS.

He said things, like if you can't shoot them, then stab them. If you can't stab them, then crush their heads with rocks. If you can't do that, then drive your cars, your vehicles, to kill them.

It is a very easy connection between statements like that and what we saw that ISIS-inspired terrorist do in Nice just last month. Of course, he said many more things to try to rouse people and draw them to ISIS and cause attacks in Europe and other places.

But this is a man 39 years old, had been with ISIS from the ground up, close to Baghdadi, potentially met him in the U.S. detention facility Camp Bucca in the south of Iraq. He was fighting for al Qaeda in Iraq against U.S. forces between 2005-2010.

So this is a man who's grown with the organization from the ground up, who has known and has Baghdadi, ISIS' leader's trust and is a man who absolutely has been -- try to maximize every opportunity to instill fear in Syria, in Iraq and in the international community, and sent fighters overseas to attack in places like France.

BALDWIN: And, Jim Sciutto, it is unprecedented how the news has come to us. This is from ISIS themselves, the ISIS news agency announcing, what, his martyrdom?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

Well, this would be -- the irony here would be ISIS announcing a blow to its own organization, because he would be a significant loss, just to echo Nic's point, certainly a mouthpiece for the organization behind these -- the advertisement, in effect, of ISIS' most brutal killings, beheadings, et cetera, but also an operational role.

This was a man with a key role in dispatching ISIS fighters into the West to carry out acts of terrorism. So, his death, if it is confirmed -- and it's not confirmed yet by the U.S. or others -- but if it is confirmed, would be a blow to the organization.

I should just say that the U.S. has seen the reports. I have spoken to the Pentagon. They say they don't have anything hard to confirm this yet. I would also note that the U.S. warplanes were not operating in that area of Aleppo, to our knowledge, where he was killed. So if he was killed, it is unlikely, at least at this point, based on what we know, that it was the result of a U.S. airstrike.

But, again, if this is confirmed in the end, it would be a loss to the organization.

BALDWIN: Graeme Wood, we have talked many times about ISIS and all of your research, and to Nic's points, he was the mouthpiece, he was the one who said if you can't stab, then crush their heads and it was all the West -- to inspire those in the U.S. to join and to fight and to kill. This is a huge, huge deal.

GRAEME WOOD, "THE ATLANTIC": Yes, it's very, very big.

His official title was spokesman, but he was much, much more than a mouthpiece, much more than a press secretary. He was a strategic leader of the organization, and especially when it comes to attacks on the West, he was the person who we now think was coordinating those attacks, was planning them, was dispatching attackers to places like France, Germany and the United States, and who all the other people who are being inspired by ISIS were -- he was the person they were listening to.

He was the person they were looking to. So, to have that voice destroyed is a serious blow to the organization and probably the most significant kill that the enemies of the Islamic State have perpetrated on it since its declaration of the caliphate.

[15:05:04]

BALDWIN: Wow. The news on an ISIS leader from ISIS. as Jim pointed out, we are waiting for word, official reaction from the U.S. government.

For now, Graeme and Nic and Jim, thank you all so much.

Let's get back to news in the race for the president and a new CNN interview with Donald Trump Jr. The day before his father's big speech on immigration in Phoenix that is supposed to clear up any kind of confusion, Donald Jr. is stressing his father is not softening on his plans which will include deportations. He spoke with Anderson Cooper just a little while ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP JR., SON OF DONALD TRUMP: He wasn't softening on anything. He didn't change his stance on anything. What he did was and what he's done all along is, he's speaking with the people. He's not lecturing them like most of the politicians you see today. He's actually having a conversation. He basically surveyed the room and asked, hey, what are your thoughts on this? I want to take that, because I want to take into account what the people say, unlike our opponent who basically will take into account only those who contribute millions and millions of dollars to her campaign.

He's actually obviously a conversation with the people of this country. The hardworking men and women who made this country great, he's giving them a voice. He asked an opinion. He didn't say, well, my policy has now changed. He didn't say that. Now, the media will run with it however they want. But that's not what actually happened and I was in the room.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: It did seem to some viewers, though, who we talked to that it seemed like he's polling the room, he's not quite sure what his own policy is.

DONALD TRUMP JR.: He was asking for an opinion. His policy has been the same for the last six, seven, eight months.

COOPER: He still says deport. They all got to go?

DONALD TRUMP JR.: That's been the same, correct. But again you have to start with baby steps. You have to let ICE do their job. You have to eliminate the sanctuary cities. You have to get rid of the criminals certainly first and foremost. You have to secure the border. These are commonsense things, Anderson.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's chew over this one little sound bite we got from A.C. with CNN political director David Chalian and CNN chief political correspondent Dana Bash.

I hear, David, words like not softening and baby steps, but cut through it. What was the headline, do you think?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: I think baby steps is the key headline there actually.

BALDWIN: OK.

CHALIAN: That was really the preview, Brooke, of what we are going to hear tomorrow, which is that Trump's orbit seems to be indicating he is going to do this piecemeal.

He is not going to try it to wholesale take care of the immigration problem in one fell swoop. He is going to focus on border security first, he's going to focus on employment verification systems, the pieces that he can sort of put under the law and order umbrella.

And the larger problem, which is a huge component of the immigration conundrum, what to do with the non-criminal undocumented population here, it seems what we are hearing here, that's not going to be the focus anymore, despite from what we heard from him in the nomination season.

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right.

BALDWIN: Dana, I'm hearing you, yes.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Yes, I mean, that's exactly right.

I really -- I feel like we could be having -- I can't believe I'm going to say this -- but having a discussion back in 2008 in and around the John McCain campaign. Not that they had the same position, but they had the same tactic at various points, which is forget the controversial stuff, let's talk about the issues where everybody agrees, the things you just heard from Don Jr., border security, E- Verify and down the list, and not talk about the most explosive, most divisive issue and the hardest and perhaps most important issue, but certainly the toughest, which is those 11 million or so undocumented immigrants in this country.

I can tell you that the new team in Trump Tower believes that that deportation force was an unfortunate term. It certainly conjures up images that is not good for Donald Trump for the general electorate. Maybe it worked in the primary, but not the general electorate. That is gone. We're not going to hear that anymore, at least not on purpose. But beyond just the rhetoric is the policy.

Are we going to hear about what to do about them? I think David is right. The answer is probably no specifics on that.

BALDWIN: We will hear him speak tomorrow Phoenix. We will talk about it tomorrow after the fact.

Meantime, I'm going to ask both of you to stick around, because I have got more for you.

Quickly, though, side note. Please tune in CNN tonight 8:00, watch Anderson's entire interview tonight with Donald Trump Jr. 8:00 this evening only here on CNN.

We have more on breaking news involving the Hillary Clinton e-mail investigation. We have learned today that the FBI will release its report to the public about why they are not pursuing charges.

And, also, we have some new insight -- this is what we will talk to Dana and David about more -- about how these two are preparing for the first debate. Could Alec Baldwin, could Jon Stewart be tapped to play Donald Trump in mock debates? Not kidding. This has been reported today. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:14:05]

BALDWIN: OK, back to politics as promised.

We are now going to talk here about a development in the investigation of Hillary Clinton's e-mails while she was secretary of state. The FBI will release possibly as early as tomorrow its report on what exactly investigators found and why they did not recommend Secretary Clinton face any sort of charges for her use of her private e-mail server.

Let me bring in senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny, who's here with me -- lucky me -- in New York today.

And I want to get to the debate details that I know you have, too.

But first talk to me about the FBI and then the freedom of information requests.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: We know the decision of the FBI to not file charges criminally. But tomorrow, as early as tomorrow, our Evan Perez is reporting that the FBI is going to release these documents that pull back the curtain a little bit, shine a light on to why they made that decision.

Now, these are documents that are a part of the investigators' work after they talked with her on that Saturday. They interviewed her for hours.

[15:15:01]

This is sort of their work product that will show why they decided to not press charges. It is essentially going to bolster their case explaining why they didn't do it. But if you are the Clinton campaign, you are wondering, probably, still talking about the e- mails.

BALDWIN: Drip, drip, drip.

(CROSSTALK)

ZELENY: Right, exactly.

So most of the folks on the campaign are saying, look, we're happy to see this released, they're happy with the decision, but they are also ready to move on from this. This could come as early as tomorrow, several pages of this, of the -- something we don't see very often, the FBI agents, their own work product essentially, why they didn't charge.

BALDWIN: Right, pulling back the curtain.

OK, so that could come as early as tomorrow. Meantime, I talked to Patrick Healy of "The New York Times" last hour. I know you have your own reporting on debate prep. Right? September 26 here in New York, Hofstra University, the first presidential debate. How is Hillary Clinton, her team preparing?

ZELENY: Well, she's reading a lot. She is a voracious reader and she's reading a lot of briefing books about what Donald Trump has said, what he hasn't said.

She's also watching a fair bit of TV, I'm told, some highlights of Donald Trump's greatest hits, if you will, from his debate performances, what got under his skin in particular. They are looking at some exchanges with Ted Cruz. We all remember how fiery those were back in the day. She's going back and sort of looking at some of those and also talking to a lot of authors, people who have written a lot about Donald Trump, studied Donald Trump.

I'm told by a top campaign adviser today that the offers are just coming in through the door like crazy of people here in New York who want to offer to try and be helpful to offer a window into Donald Trump. Of course, he's been such a public figure here for so long, everyone has some advice about how they think he should go after this.

But mainly she is focusing on what Donald Trump has said. Look, we're seeing some of this play out in real time, what this is going to be about. In fact, "The New York Times" today, their editorial page said the Clinton Foundation should cut -- that she should cut ties with the Clinton Foundation now, not after the election.

Donald Trump of course put out a statement saying "The New York Times" is right on this. Expect that to come up during the debate. This is not going to be a whole set of new issues. We see these issues day by day by day. And the best ones, the top ones will come out on September 26. It is going to be one of the most anticipated debates of all time.

BALDWIN: Jeff Zeleny, thank you. ZELENY: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: I wanted to talk precisely about that. David and Dana have been standing by.

And so on the debates and what Jeff was just reporting here, talking also "The New York Times" earlier today, they were saying for the Clinton -- we will get to Trump in a second, but the Clinton team is saying to her, OK, yes, read, read, read, but maybe not be a total policy wonk. It is more about needling Donald Trump and finding those sort of personality vulnerabilities, Dana.

BASH: Yes, for sure about Donald Trump. Look, all you have to do is look at kind of the bare bones of all of the primaries on the Republican side to see what gets under his skin.

But my impression is, although that's important, it is also about her. She has the most to lose here, because, at least today, she is up in most polls. And so it's knowing the policy, which she knows probably inside out already before she reads any book. Much more important for her is the human side that everybody who knows Hillary Clinton says is there, but that it just kind of goes away when the cameras come on.

That is going to be a big part of what she is working on trying to get out. And sort of a sidebar to that is the honest and trustworthy number, which is still really problematic for her.

BALDWIN: Which is something, David Chalian, I'm sure Donald Trump wants to take her on and sort of highlight that trust issue. Sorry. Go ahead.

CHALIAN: No, there's no doubt about it.

One of the things I'm so eager to see when we get to Hofstra for the day of the debate, these two people are so different. Now we are learning how differently they are preparing for the debate. I wonder if they are going to be in the same universe on that debate stage.

BALDWIN: Great point.

CHALIAN: Are they actually going to be engaged in a debate with each other, or are each of them sort of side by side going to be in this monologue mode of delivering their version of the debate? I'm not sure where the two will meet, because they are just so different.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: I totally agree, but I bet Hillary Clinton is going to make sure that they are in the same universe, or at least that she is in his universe, because that probably only benefits her.

But one thing that I am looking for, and just based on some conversations with people who are in touch with Trump world, is whether Donald Trump is going to start arguing that a one-on-one debate is not fair and that Gary Johnson, the libertarian candidate, Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate, who by debate commission standards right now doesn't look like they're going to meet the criteria, which is -- and, David, you can correct me if I'm wrong -- an average of 15 percent in a certain number of polls leading up to the debate.

[15:20:04]

But my impression, in talking to some people who are kind of talking to him, is that there is more and more thinking that maybe a good argument for him might be that's not fair and that they are on -- Gary Johnson's on ballots in all the states, Jill Stein on not all, but a fair number, whether or not that will be something you're going to from hear him.

Why? He hasn't had a one-on-one debate. And a one-on-one debate with Hillary Clinton is going to be high pressure, and it certainly defuses that if you have two other people on the stage.

BALDWIN: Yes. Go ahead. Go ahead, Chalian.

CHALIAN: That would be totally fascinating.

We're in now that period of time -- we're now less than four weeks before the debate -- where the debate over the debate is going to be the dominant storyline. This may be a Trump campaign tactic.

I will tell you, in talking with people that are very familiar with the Commission on Presidential Debates sort of thinking about this, they're pretty tied to their rule of the 15 percent that Dana just talked to. I don't know that -- a public campaign by Donald Trump to try to get others in the debate will certainly generate lot of news headlines and conversation.

But I don't know at the end of the day the commission will be feeling the heat to alter their rules.

BALDWIN: My biggest takeaway is, will they both be in the same universe on that debate stage?

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: David Chalian and Dana Bash.

BASH: I just want to be in David Chalian's universe.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Every day. Every day. We all -- things we wish for. Thank you two very much.

CHALIAN: Thanks.

BALDWIN: Coming up next here, Senator John McCain and what he has called the fight of his political life, voters at the polls today in Arizona. We will take you live to Phoenix to discuss whether Senator McCain's strained relationship with Donald Trump will help him or hurt him and what he could say come tomorrow night. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:26:36]

BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

One of the most respected figures in the Republican Party facing a tough test to hold on to the Senate seat he's held for 30 years. In just a couple of hours, we should know whether John McCain will has survived a primary contest in Arizona, where he is being challenged by a much younger one.

Dr. Kelli Ward has tried to make an issue of Senator McCain's age. He turned 80 yesterday. And like so many other Republicans, Senator McCain's quest for reelection is complicated by Donald Trump. He once questioned McCain's status as a respected war hero before coming around to endorse him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He's a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured. OK? I hate to tell you.

I hold in the highest esteem Senator John McCain for his service to our country, in uniform and in public office, and I fully support and endorse his reelection.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's go straight to Phoenix. Brahm Resnik is joining me now of KPNX 12 News. He hosts a program there called "Sunday Square- Off. Nice to have you on.

Brahm, nice to have you on.

BRAHM RESNIK, KPNX REPORTER: Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: So, the big question, one of the big questions, if Senator McCain survives today, survives the primary, there have been those who have wondered if he then sort of pivots and denounces Donald Trump after the big win, or do you think he needs the Trump supporters in Arizona looking ahead to November?

RESNIK: That's been out there, Democrats pushing that line in particular.

I have a really, really hard time believing that.

BALDWIN: Why?

RESNIK: Number one, politically, it will be the biggest flip-flop of McCain's career. Donald Trump would have to do something so outrageous that he would force John McCain's hand.

Also, personally, Senator Jeff Flake told us this last week, that John McCain was the nominee of the Republican Party. He understands loyalty from that as well, as his past life. Personally, it is just something he cannot do, as much as he struggles with all of our questions about Donald Trump and refuses to answer them.

BALDWIN: And it's not just your tough questions, Brahm, but it is also tough questions of his presumed opponent come November, Congresswoman Ann Kirkpatrick.

How will he -- she's called him out for supporting Trump. How does he manage that while trying to win over support ahead of the general election?

RESNIK: Well, he's been running against three candidates in this primary, two who aren't on the ballot. Donald Trump, he's had to deal with that, and also Ann Kirkpatrick. They have trading ads throughout this campaign, this primary campaign.

Kirkpatrick is just going after him on his support for Trump. The question is how far that can take her. McCain is going to hit back on her on Obamacare, which is still a very contentious issue here in Arizona. Arizona has not done well. We have one county, maybe the only county in the country that's lost Obamacare coverage.

He's going to keep hitting her on that. Ann Kirkpatrick not necessarily the greatest retail campaigner like John McCain. She's going to have to develop in that way. So, he may not have as many liabilities against Ann Kirkpatrick as you might think.

But there will still be Donald Trump out there. And for the last several months, he has been very -- he just doesn't want to talk about him.

BALDWIN: Well, I know you will be talking to Trump tomorrow, as we will we, ahead of his big immigration speech there