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Brock Turner Returns Home Amid Protests; Colin Kaepernick Continues Protest Against Police Brutality. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired September 6, 2016 - 19:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:10] DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Chris Brown`s legal team says he was framed. Watch this from ABC.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS BROWN, SINGER, SONGWRITER, DANCER, ACTOR: I cannot wait till the truth comes to light about this incident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This morning, Chris Brown hinting that nine-hour showdown with the LAPD at his mansion was a setup.
BROWN: My character has been defaced, and who I am as a person and integrity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brown seen here in this video clip provided exclusively to ABC news maintaining his innocence after being arrested for assault with
a deadly weapon.
BROWN: I`m glad that all the reporters know me and know the truth and will see the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The former beauty queen had been in Brown`s home along about a dozen other visitors and told ABC news she was looking at a box of
expensive diamond jewelry.
BAYLEE CURRAN, FILED POLICE REPORT AGAINST CHRIS BROWN: That`s when Chris came in and said, I`m so sick of all of you people, took the gun out like
this, put it in my face, and said get the "F" out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chris Brown`s defense team led by his attorney, Mark Garagos, insists that the R&B singer was set up by the accuser herself. His
defense team sharing with ABC news a text message purportedly sent by Baylee to a friend just minutes before the 911 call was made.
The text message reading, "this freak Chris Brown is kicking me out of his house because I called his friend`s jewelry fake. I`m going to set him up
and call the cops, and say that he tried to shoot me. That will teach him a lesson. I`m going to set his expletive up."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Baylee Curran`s lawyer says that she actually questioned the authenticity of those text messages, that this woman stands by her story.
Joining me, Anne Elise Goetz, attorney, Sara Azari, criminal defense attorney, and Mike Dow, psychotherapist, host of "Hay House Radio`s Dr.
Mike Show." Pat Lalama is out there, managing editor, Crime Watch Daily with Chris Hansen.
Now, you guys, the Twitter mom accused me of victim shaming. They said that the fact that we were questioning her side of the story was somehow
inappropriate. How else do we get through this, Anne Elise? What to do to follow the story?
ANNE ELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY: No, no, no. We -- we have to look at both sides of the story. I don`t think this is victim shaming. This is -- I am
hyperaware of when we have victim shaming, we`re talking about a sexual assault.
When you -- when you have such serious allegations that you`re claiming against someone that they held a gun to your head, we want to see both
sides of the story because we don`t want to have people unnecessarily go through our criminal system.
And to the extent that we actually have evidence, this text message, let`s find out the authenticity of it, but if there is evidence that maybe she`s
fabricating some aspects of the story, then by all means, let`s -- let`s see it.
PINSKY: I got to say this, Sara. It`s not -- it`s not unfamiliar territory for me to feel the effect of a mom whenever you just do so much as go, I
wonder if that person is telling the truth? How dare you? I think Hillary Clinton is on the side saying every potential victim needs to be believed,
but that`s true, but how do you also, then, get to the truth in every case?
SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Correct. As a criminal defense attorney, I`m always skeptical. And -- and the authenticity of the text
messages are not difficult to -- to get to the bottom of.
PINSKY: She gave her phone. She handed her phone to the police. She has nothing to hide, she didn`t feel anyway.
AZARI: Well -- well, but also, you can`t unring that bell. Once you make that call and you make those serious allegations, what are you going to
say? I`m not giving you my phone? So, they took the phone from her. They are gonna see what these text messages are, who they are from, to whom, and
-- and look further into this.
And also, I have to say, beyond physical evidence, there`s also the testimony and the statements of the people that were there. This was a
house full of people. I`d be very surprised if a gun was pointed at somebody and nobody heard or see anything.
PINSKY: Hang on. On the phone, I actually have Mark Geragos. He just called us. He is Chris Brown`s attorney. Mark, thanks for joining us.
MARK GERAGOS, CHRIS BROWN`S ATTORNEY: My pleasure, Drew. How are you?
PINSKY: I`m good. So, there`s a lot of discussion here about these text messages and the veracity. How do you prove that?
GERAGOS: Well, either the police will do it if they have taken possession of the phone. Even if you delete a text message what the people don`t know,
is it still remains in what`s called your unallocated space, and there`s a program that will bring it up.
And then secondarily, we have -- you get the recipients phone, and you can get it from them, which is what we`ve already provided with.
PINSKY: It`s not their saying that somebody else sent a text on her phone. It`s just a question of did this actually come from her phone? My next
question is the connection between this woman, Baylee, and the mother of Chris Brown`s child. I understand there`s something there?
GERAGOS: I`m told, I haven`t, you know, we`ll see, but I`m told that there is a connection. We`ll see. The only thing that gives, I think, some
credence is that literally before the police got a search warrant, the mother of the royalty, Chris` daughter, her lawyer in Houston was already
making statements that the child was in the house, which, by the way, is categorically false, and that always rings an alarm bell to me.
[19:05:00] PINSKY: That the lawyer was somehow involved with this whole thing?
GERAGOS: That the lawyer was getting information and that the lawyer saying she was in the house or -- and that coming on the heels of losing a custody
battle, those kinds of things I think are inherently suspicious.
AZARI: So Mark, can I ask you a question, neighbor?
GERAGOS: Yes, you can.
PINSKY: It`s Sara Azari.
GERAGOS: Yeah, right, as if I couldn`t tell.
AZARI: So, are you looking into who was texting who, and then...
PINSKY: Wait, ask what you wanted about the people at the party. That`s interesting.
AZARI: Right. Are you looking into the people that were at that party aside from this woman to see what they may have...
GERAGOS: Yes. We`ve already interviewed virtually everybody. The ones who were present tell a consistent story, and I`ve already got that transcribed
and tape recorded that say that this did not happen, that what happened was that she came out with her friend, the two of them, right then and there,
were there, if you will.
And they were -- could not understand why they were kicked out, and then they all the sudden started yelling as they are walking down the driveway,
that -- that, you know, help, help, help, and that`s when they encounter.
AZARI: But you -- you.
GERAGOS: I have witness statements. It`s already been out there and said that it was concoction, it did happen. I`ve got the only credible witnesses
that you would want that are basically third party saying it didn`t happen.
And you now got the situation where not only was the jewelry that was described not found in there, but we`ve got -- if this text message is
true, I`m gonna call for criminal prosecution and investigate on that.
AZARI: On her.
PINSKY: She is gonna be...
AZARI: Criminally prosecuted.
PINSKY: For false allegation.
AZARI: For falsifying a police report. And Mark, one more question...
GERAGOS: By the way, Drew, we`ll explore the full brunt of the law, if, in fact, this is true. Because there are real tangible economic consequences
here besides posting bail, besides having sponsors, you know, hesitating, having tour dates, things of that nature. There`s millions of dollars in
PINSKY: And although, Mark, the bail was excessive as you describe it, you were generally happy with how the LAPD handled this, although sort of
GERAGOS: Well, I understand that when you got a high profile case in Los Angeles and celebrity Trumps all, the fact remains that robbery and
homicide and there`s detectives involved, acquitted themselves, I thought very professionally.
The bail was excessive, yes, I`ll get to the bottom of that. With the response I`ve previously described as something you`d see out of muscle or
Fallujah (ph). I get it. You know, there`s a certain irony on all of that, but, you know, we`ll let it play out and deal with it.
PINSKY: All right, Mark, listen, I appreciate you being here. It`s -- Sara once more.
AZARI: I also found, Mark, interesting that you allowed ABC or provided ABC with this video of your client because that`s also something that normally
as defense attorneys we don`t do. So, there must be, you know, there must be...
PINSKY: Good reason.
AZARI: Very good reason for that.
GERAGOS: I`ll give you the reason. There`s an, unfortunately, in this day and age, with the kind of clash between criminal defense and crisis
management, you know, I`ve got a client who`s got real significant financial issues that are in consequences to false allegations being made.
I can`t do it in some of these cases. Traditional criminal defense, you`re not talking, you`re not doing this, I already did that in terms of telling
him, you`re not going outside, at this point, until I get there, and then that gets called a standoff. It was not a standoff. That`s just exercising
PINSKY: Pat Lalama is out there. Pat, you want to ask something to Mark?
PAT LALAMA, MANAGING EDITOR, CRIME WATCH DAILY: Oh, I did. Well, let me just say one thing. I love Mark Geragos. You know I love you, Mark. One of
the things you`re brilliant at is let`s forget what may or may not happen in the courtroom, but you are impacting public opinion with all of this.
The court of public opinion.
And I think a lot of people started out saying, Chris Brown, what a dog, and now might be saying whether that text is authentic or not, now might be
saying, oh, I don`t know. And that`s important when you get ready to see the jury or going forward with court.
But one other thing, Mark, full disclosure. ABC, you have your own drama series premiering based on your life. So, you didn`t pick Crime Watch
GERAGOS: Full -- full disclosure...
LALAMA: You picked ABC news.
GERAGOS: The first -- the first episode, actually, which is already in the can, has my 6-year-old character driving up to the house as the police have
LALAMA: Yes, I know.
GERAGOS: So, I don`t know what you call that.
[19:10:00] PINSKY: If you would not have mentioned it, Pat, he would not have.
LALAMA: Well, next time call Crime Watch Daily first.
GERAGOS: By the way, Pat, I didn`t mention it. I didn`t make any phony references, book references.
PINSKY: I know, right. You`re getting it figured out. So, relax over there. Mark, thank you very much. I appreciate you joining us. Very interesting.
Next up, the Stanford swimmer out of jail after three months for sexual assault. Mom`s out to get him too. And later, an NFL quarterback protest
gaining steam. Back after this.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Former Stanford University swimmer, Brock Turner, walked out of the Santa Clara County jail after serving half of the six
months sentence for the sexual assault of an unconscious woman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: About a dozen people held signs and at least two openly displayed assault rifles.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone scribbled chalk warnings on the sidewalk telling him to stay away from their daughters.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 21-year-old is now required to register as a sex offender every three months for the rest of his life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Brock Turner has served three months for having sexually assaulted an unconscious woman behind a dumpster. He returned home to Ohio where
armed protesters lined the street outside his parents` home.
I`m back with Anne Elise, Sara, Mike, and Pat. Pat, you were actually there when Brock was released. Can you describe the scene to us?
[19:15:00] LALAMA: Oh, I sure can. 3:30 in the morning, I was blurry-eyed after two hours of sleep, but I have to tell you there were probably about
40 cameras there. I will tell you that the Santa Clara County jail was completely professional in a couple ways.
One, they didn`t feel that they needed to hide him. They weren`t giving any special treatment whatsoever. At the same time, they kept up us, as you can
imagine, the stares coming down from the door.
We had a say on both sides. I was at the bottom, and I was about five feet from him as he tried to get into a car that was waiting for him, not with
his parents, by the way, getting to that later. And I tried to break through some...
PINSKY: Wait, wait. We see -- we are watching you trying to breakthrough there, and watching the footage. What`s the point about not being with the
LALAMA: Well, because what happened was he got into a car, that was one driver that we know of in this white SUV. What happened was the parents
were waiting elsewhere at a hotel, probably, I don`t know that area that well.
I`m gonna guess it was about ten miles away, and a local crew was gotten tipped off that the parents would be there, and you probably saw footage of
them waiting for him there, and then they snack out for his flight back to Ohio.
I tried to get through -- the deputies were nice, though, but they strong armed me. They wouldn`t let me through, but they were nice guys.
PINSKY: We saw you. We saw what you did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Throwing elbows. Pointing the elbows.
PINSKY: You actually got into his cell, is that right? Tell me about that.
LALAMA: Yeah. I asked the Santa Clara County jail if they would allow us to see it because , you know, I was curious for a kid, you know, who lived a
decent life from a decent family, what was it like for him? There is footage, I don`t know. I don`t have a monitor, so...
PINSKY: We`re watching it. We`re looking at the footage.
LALAMA: Yeah. He shared that cell with four other protective custody inmates. It was -- they were cramped in there. I have to tell you. And as
far as Sheriff Laurie Smith, I believe that the name, Laurie Smith, a wonderful woman.
She was explaining to me that, you know, there was no special treatment for him. He was right there with these four other protective custody inmates
who I saw through glass because they had to moved them to let us see his cell.
You know, I`m dying to know what that was like for him being, you know, I`m not saying they are lesser people, I`m just saying a different world for
him. She says as far as she knows, there was no problems for him. He did receive so much hate mail -- you probably know this, he asked them to stop
giving it to him.
PINSKY: Wow. That`s like social media. Speaking of the hatred, there were protesters outside his parent`s home in Ohio that read amongst other
things, castrate, rapist, shoot your local rapist. Some of these people had assault rifles. Mike, what do you think is motivating all these tremendous
MIKE DOW, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yeah, I mean, obviously you can understand it. I also think it`s a horrendous act, but I just don`t think it`s well placed.
So, you know, in research, that sex offender registry doesn`t really work.
DOW: And it`s interesting. What I believe is somebody who`s treated both survivors and perpetrators, I think if anything`s going to get to the
PINSKY: Treat him.
DOW: . it`s gonna be treatment. And he is subjected to something that does work, which is court-ordered polygraph tests in conjunction with
psychotherapy. Now, that works, and I think that is a brilliant idea. I`m so glad...
PINSKY: That`s what they are doing with him?
PINSKY: We know that?
DOW: And I think that is more effective than this registry, and, clearly, you know, the fear and -- if he`s going to admit anything, as you know with
all patients you treated, having assault rifles in your lawn will gonna make him more defensive right now.
AZARI: That`s part of the registration requirements that he has to register, which is a lifetime requirement, and...
PINSKY: Every three months.
AZARI: And he has to go through treatment, and also on his birthday, every time he moves. He can`t be anywhere near a school, playground, mall,
anywhere that children frequent. And I think people minimize that. This is a life sentence, even though he did six months on, three months in jail
actually, this is for the rest of his life.
And, you know, I feel that now with these death threats and armed protesters outside the house, for a guy who has really done everything the
court has ordered him to do, and a father who, you know, there`s outrage over the father as well and his response to the act, calling it a 20
minutes of action or whatever it was.
You know, I think now these people are in danger, and you`re talking about -- you`re not talking about sex registration in a run of the Mill case, but
sex registration, a very high profile case that`s caused national outrage.
PINSKY: Hang on a second. You can respond because I know you`re having energy on this, but let`s look at what the protesters outside the parents`
home wanted to say to the perpetrator. Take a look.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s not gonna live some happy pleasant life. We`re going to never let him forget what he did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If he is uncomfortable, then he begins to receive at least some punishment that he deserves for his crime.
[19:20:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are people willing to defend a potential victim in case he were decide to do this again because he knows
he can get away with it. If the justice system failed him, then the community will not. We know what he did, and we`re not gonna forget.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Still feel that way?
GOETZ: I do still feel that way. You know, Sara is talking about the fact that this is a lifetime registration.
GOETZ: Please don`t forget that the victim of this crime is also going to be dealing with ramifications for a lifetime, and I would argue what she
has to endure on a go-forward basis is far worse than having protesters outside of your house.
And let`s be honest, they are not going to never let him forget. They`re gonna eventually, the media is gonna go away and they`re gonna go away.
AZARI: These people are taking the law in their own hands with machine guns setting outside these people`s home. That is not a joke.
GOETZ: It`s an open carry state.
AZARI: It doesn`t matter. Do you want people armed outside your home threatening to kill you and castrate your husband?
GOETZ: Let me tell you. Green County is five, ten minutes south of Dayton where I grew up. So, they are, you know, in the neighborhood, in my
neighborhood, and that`s their first amendment right, that`s their second amendment right. They are constantly protecting what they are doing.
AZARI: There is no...
GOETZ: And to the extent that they start actually harassing him, actual violence, then, yes, people are gonna step in, but I -- I don`t feel bad
for this guy. Don`t rape people, and this wouldn`t have happened. I don`t feel bad.
PINSKY: Pat is out there. Pat, go ahead. Pat.
LALAMA: I love it. Well, I can`t wait for people to start screaming at me about this, but can we look at this in one other aspect in that he didn`t
ask for such a minor sentence.
AZARI: Thank you. Thank you.
LALAMA: What is he supposed to say to the judge? No, give me ten years.
AZARI: Yeah, exactly.
LALAMA: And march out? Why aren`t people sitting outside of Judge Persky`s courtroom...
LALAMA: . screaming for his head?
PINSKY: That`s right, or the attorneys.
LALAMA: I don`t feel sorry for the kid either, but I think their anger seems to be misguided. He did not ask for that.
PINSKY: What`s the plan? What`s the plan? Every time a legal process doesn`t -- you don`t get the result you want, you`ll show up in the street
with machine guns?
LALAMA: Outside the person`s house?
PINSKY: That`s the world we live in.
AZARI: There`s no constitutional right for threatening somebody.
PINSKY: I have to go to break. We`ll keep this going. A lot more to say here. Later on, Colin Kaepernick`s jersey suddenly become the number one
best seller in the NFL. Is his protest of the national anthem responsible for the uptick? Back after this.
[19:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One day, I was at work, scrolling through the news on my phone, and I came across an article. In it, I read and learned for the
first time about how I was found unconscious with my hair disheveled, long necklace wrapped around my neck, bra pulled out of my dress, dress pulled
off over my shoulders and pulled up above my waist, that I was butt naked all the way down to my boots, legs spread apart, and had been penetrated by
a foreign object by someone I did not recognize.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was part of a letter for Brock Turner`s victim, describing the night she had been raped behind the dumpster. He`s out of jail after
serving three months, but have to register as a sex offender for life. I`m back with Anne Elise, Sara, Mike, and Pat.
Joining us, Derek Logue, he himself a convicted sex offender, founder of oncefallen.com. So, Derek, does he deserve to be treated the way he`s been
treated by his community, do you feel?
DEREK LOGUE, CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER, FOUNDER OF ONCEFALLEN.COM: Well, I know one thing, if there was a bunch of protesters ever come outside my
door, I would have expected the police to arrest them, especially when these protesters were out there with assault weapons and making references
to rape and murder.
There`s something inherently wrong with individuals who think it`s okay to do the same thing, like this person you`re showing right now. You know,
that`s a rape joke. I`m surprised some of you people aren`t really going after them about that. You know, it`s a very threatening thing.
You know, I`ve been a victim of, you know, online vigilantes at least many times over the years. I`ve had death threats and I`ve had people tell me
they`re gonna come to my house and cut my head off and sodomize me, you know, so I dealt with a lot of this stuff myself. These people should be in
jail right now themselves.
PINSKY: Do you think his sentence was too light? Is that maybe why there`s such a reaction?
LOGUE: Look, the sex -- you know what? People are downplaying the difficulties of being a registered sex offender. I used to register -- I`ve
been registering here in Ohio for 13 years. It`s -- I would not wish this on my worse enemy. Every aspect of my life is dictated to me.
Where I live, where I work, and I have not worked in ten years. Who I date, all these things, you know, 30, 40 years down the line, I`m still gonna
have to be dealing with -- with the consequences of what I`ve done.
PINSKY: Hang a second there. Mike, I`m sort of flabbergasted by what`s happening to us. Forget what this kid did and what his punishment was. The
fact that we are no longer allowing the legal system to function or to determine what a punishment would be. We instead getting in the street with
pitch forks and torches. What`s going on with us? The public?
DOW: Yeah. I think psychologically, there`s all this anger, right? And there`s a mob mentality. We are trying to take the law into our own hands.
But underneath that anger, there`s a lot of fear. There`s a lot of, yes, there`s injustice here. Do I think he should have been in jail for a longer
amount of time? Yes. I do. I think three months is way too short. I think what he did is horrific.
PINSKY: What`s the difference between you who has that feeling and is unhappy with it and someone who picks up the torch and the pitch fork and
walks out into the street. That`s a different thing.
DOW: Absolutely is. And I think we have to figure out where are we gonna direct that anger.
PINSKY: Pat, go ahead.
[19:30:00] LALAMA: I think this is important. I think a lot of times the internet has fueled this mentality now. As a journalist, when I read blogs
about things that happen in court, and I was in court and they are so incorrect, and yet these are people passing themselves as journalists and
they fan flames and fuel sentiment.
I think that drives a lot of this. We won`t let the system do its job. Everybody`s individual judge and jury now taking action. I do think the
internet and social media have a lot to do with this.
PINSKY: Sara, you had something?
AZARI: Yes. I just want to add, I agree with Pat, and I also want to add that we need to remember that Brock is appealing his sentence, and really
he`s appealing the sex registration part of the sentence because the sentence was only six months.
And I think this -- this protest, the protesting outside of his house, the danger that he`s exposed to and his family, who are innocent, are exposed
to -- is going to bolster his attorney`s arguments to modify his sentence. I think that`s going to help.
PINSKY: Anne Elise likes that he is a sex offender.
GOETZ: No, but.
PINSKY: You think it`s the proper.
GOETZ: I think I don`t like it. I don`t like that any of this happened. I mean, I think it`s proper that he is a sex offender, and I think there`s
not only is it a piece of the punishment, but there`s a shame aspect. I`m not sure how much they protect this as a society as you were saying. But I
think it`s an added sort of shame element.
What I don`t like about what`s going on with the protesters right now, is that, as Sara said, it`s creating sympathy for him, and I don`t want any
sympathy for this guy. And, so, that`s -- that`s my one problem that I have with these protesters lined up, that now he`s a victim, and he`s not. They
are allowing him to be.
AZARI: I think the danger far outweighs the sympathy here.
DOW: I think it`s a false sense of security. Looking at studies, we as public people, we think it creates a sense of safety, but research shows
that it does not. I believe in sex registration, and I think we need to change the laws of this country to make it specific. If somebody`s a
pedophile, then they should stay away from any place where there`s young children. So, I think the.
PINSKY: The point.
AZARI: That`s a problem with sex registration -- it`s a blanket -- yeah, it`s a blanket.
PINSKY: What Mike is saying, pedophiles who have sexual orientation to children cannot be treated and need to be dealt with. People that have
inappropriate sexual contact are sex offenders need to be treated.
But, Pat, I got to tell you, I`m very sympathetic where you`re saying about the mom and the ink that spelled -- unbelievable. Whenever on the object of
stories, I`m shocked at how far from the truth they are. It`s insanity.
LALAMA: It`s so out of control. It`s no wonder a lot of people don`t talk to the media anymore. One quick thing, I`m absolutely baffled. Who the heck
is advising this family? All he has to do is pick one great media entity, sit down and say, I`m a dope, I have learned so much.
I want to do things that will change -- how come he doesn`t understand I`m sorry? And that humiliation will buy a lot for him, and he shows some,
people just might back off. Nobody is advising this family or they are not listening.
PINSKY: Is it that.
AZARI: Clearly, they are not -- they are not advising them properly because remember the father read a statement where he called the rape 20 minutes of
action. Horrible. What lawyer would allow him to do that? Maybe they just don`t get it.
PINSKY: Well, or maybe there`s something about the strategy in the courtroom that they are putting as a priority and public opinion, they are
not paying attention. I don`t know. I agree, though, Pat.
Next up, a new twist in the Colin Kaepernick`s national anthem controversy. Police getting involved now. Back after this.
[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(START VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We still haven`t heard the end of the controversy that started when 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick chose to sit down during
the national anthem in week three of the preseason and continued he melt during the song with teammate Eric Reid on Thursday. All along, he said
he`s protesting the way the country and police treat minorities.
COLIN KAEPERNICK, PLAYER: I continue to sit, I`m going to continue to stand with the people that are being oppressed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he is disrespecting people with his comments, and yet we are being told we need to respect his opinion. I`m sorry. I just
think that Kaepernick`s a baboon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our military fights for our rights including Kaepernick`s right to sit during the national anthem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: San Francisco 49ers quarterback, Colin Kaepernick, continued his protest against police brutality by refusing to stand during the national
anthem on Thursday. His actions have become so controversial even president Obama weighed in. Take a look.
(START VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My understanding, at least, is that he`s exercising his constitutional right to make a statement. I
think there`s a long history of sports figures doing so, but I don`t doubt his sincerity based on what I heard. I think he cares about some real
legitimate issues that have to be talked about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Anne Elise is still with me. And joining us, Segun Oduolowu, social commentator, Ephraim Salaam, retired NFL player, NFL commentator, and via
Skype, John Cardillo, former NYPD officer. Thank you. Lots of critics, but also his jersey sales are increasing. Skyrocketing, apparently.
EPHRAIM SALAAM, RETIRED NFL PLAYER: Yeah, because he made a statement. He made a statement. And it`s not an anti-American statement, right? Because
we`re all Americans, we love this country. It`s about the treatment of people in this country. Namely minorities and people of color.
People can`t sit back, especially athletes, can`t sit back and allow mistreatment to happen. They have to take a stand. It was very rare for
someone in the NFL to do it because the NFL is one of those types of leagues, I played in it, they don`t want anything discouraging towards the
PINSKY: Let me ask you that. What would that be.
JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: Doctor.
PINSKY: Well, John, hold on, I`ll get you. But what was that like? I mean, you got the sway of the emotion of the stadium, you know your teammates are
gonna bust your chops a bit. How much -- I think a lot of courage you think? Or just do your own thing?
[19:40:00] SALAAM: It takes more than a lot of courage. Because you know what`s about to happen. It`s not like he was out there and he`s the
starting quarterback. He was playing like he was playing a couple of years ago when he took the team to the Super Bowl. He`s fighting for a job.
And to come out and make a statement like this, it shows that this is a selfless act. This is not being selfish. I don`t want the attention because
it`s not about me, it`s about the mistreatment of minorities.
PINSKY: I have no problem with that assessment if he was not just silent in the last year when a lot of stuff was happening. John, have at it.
CARDILLO: Well, number one, I think he`s fighting for relevance, not a job. Number two, the NFL has really become a symbol of liberalism because when
the Dallas Cowboys -- when the Dallas Cowboys wanted to wear helmet decals honoring five slain Dallas police officers, the NFL said, absolutely not,
and you do it under penalty.
Yet, they let this moron has been and so United States, wearing his jersey in the stadium, and his jersey sales are up. You should note the price of
the jersey is down to about six bucks, so that might account for it.
PINSKY: Okay. Segun.
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I`ve said this before, doctor, that -- I mean, this is about as American as sweet potato buying collard
greens, and not apple pie because that`s dutch as we all know. But, how more American can you be then protesting peacefully. This is his right to
And what I love about it is this -- this league that he play for, they will -- they will fine you for everything. He did not ask permission. He did not
bring attention to himself. He was quiet. It`s only until the reporters started asking why he he was sitting. He did not come out and say, look at
me, look at me, look at me.
PINSKY: You know there`s going to be attention, right?
ODUOLOWU: Well, it is. Only until they started bringing it.
PINSKY: Yeah, but he knew.
ODUOLOWU: First of all, calling him a moron. That`s ridiculous.
SALAAM: Let`s be honest. You can`t just latch out and call people names because you don`t agree with what they are doing. He`s doing it for a
reason. If there was no reason to do it, he wouldn`t be protesting, period.
CARDILLO: Hold on. Let me respond to that for one second.
SALAAM: Go ahead, respond.
CARDILLO: Okay. Let`s retract moron. How about phony and hypocrite? He makes $1.2 million dollars a game.
SALAAM: He`s given a million of that.
CARDILLO: Hold on, let me finish.
SALAAM: Go ahead. Go ahead.
CARDILLO: He kept the condo -- he kept the condo near me in Miami in one of the most affluent buildings. Five blocks away was over town, primarily
African-American, why not buy there?
SALAAM: You`re not making sense. You`re not making sense. Because I don`t live in Inglewood. I grew up in Inglewood. I grew up in Inglewood. I don`t
live in Inglewood anymore. I will never live in Inglewood now that I have the means to provide for my family. Was does that have to do with him and
PINSKY: Hold on, hold on.
CARDILLO: Where does he put his money up?
SALAAM: He gave a million dollars, first million dollars, he`s given back to the cause. You put your money up. Where your money going?
PINSKY: The question is, is he doing that because.
CARDILLO: I`m not -- I do give to the causes I care about.
PINSKY: Is he doing it now for the heat? He has to do it? Or he is doing it because he planned to all along? That`s my concern. Where was he the last
ODUOLOWU: Why does he have to show up now? Wait a second.
PINSKY: Why do we care as long as he shows up?
ODUOLOWU: The question is, why are we judging what he`s doing or what his solution is to a problem that people have not had a solution for since
Mohammad Ali did it. Since John Carlos and Thomas did it.
PINSKY: My question was.
ODUOLOWU: Why be so mad at him now?
PINSKY: It was not clear what he was up to. Now.
ODUOLOWU: He was clear. He said it.
PINSKY: Why does the NFL take a stand on this? My other question. They took a stand on the Dallas teammates saying least taking a position on the
police officers who died, why are they putting heat on Kaepernick?
GOETZ: Because of the first amendment right.
PINSKY: No, no, no. First amendment right, but doesn`t mean it`s the culture of the workplace.
GOETZ: I think that it says a lot about the NFL that they are respecting his first amendment right.
PINSKY: So the -- hang on. The kids in Dallas that wanted to put, honor the police officers slain, their first amendment right was squashed.
GOETZ: That`s part of their uniform. I think that`s a part of their uniform. That`s a part of the NFL uniform. He`s not -- I`m -- he`s not
altering the uniform. He is taking his own, he is sitting down, he is making a statement, silent statement, a nonviolent statement.
And he`s not -- if we are living in a society where you have to stand up and salute the flag and the national anthem, that`s -- that is not
democracy. That`s not.
PINSKY: No, no. I agree with you on that, Anne Elise. Does anybody disagree -- John, you too, you don`t disagree it`s a first amendment right?
CARDILLO: Not at all.
PINSKY: We all agree. We also.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John thinks he`s a moron.
PINSKY: . he`s also strategically done something useful in terms of this conversation because here we are having it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are the other athletes moron?
PINSKY: Hang on a second. Hang on. We`ll get to it. But, my other question, I wish I were clear on what exactly he wants. Because he put money good, I
get that. What exactly does he want?
SALAAM: How about this? How about this? How about he wants it not to be forgotten, right? We had six months of Black Lives Matter, and what
happened? The news cycle turns over and it goes away. Guess what? It`s not going away now.
[19:45:00] PINSKY: I don`t object to that, but why not say that? I`m just curious.
ODUOLOWU: Why does he have to?
GOETZ: He says a lot by the actions.
SALAAM: Actions speak louder than words. We all know that.
PINSKY: Well, it seems like that because we are all chewing on it. Next up, Mohammad Ali`s ex-wife has a message for Kaepernick. You will hear that
after the break.
PINSKY: The 49ers`s announcement that Colin Kaepernick made the team is being cheered by some critics who say he`s anti-military, anti-police,
anti-American. I`m back with Anne Elize, Segun, Ephraim, and John. Now, you know, we were talking off the air. I want you to pick this up what we were
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay.
[19:50:00] PINSKY: Originally, I was not -- I`m never critical, I agree with you, it takes courage, he`s taking a stand, good for him, first
amendment right. But I wanna sure what he intended. What he wanted.
Because it`s very unclear. We`re talking about him. Not what he would like to do. I would like to take some action. You put money up. That`s
excellent. What is it he think he`s intending to be done?
SALAAM: Justice within the justice system. These police officers who we`ve seen murder these minorities, these African-American men, they get paid
leave. They go away. No one gets prosecuted. That`s injustice. How can it be when you can go and you can murder unarmed citizens and nothing happens
What part of America is that? Although America was founded on treachery like that. Right? So if we want to get deep and get back to the root of
everything, why was there a need for police officers? Right? If you go back and you look at the civil rights movements and all of that.
PINSKY: Why is there a need for police officers?
SALAAM: Look at what I`m saying. Who was inflicting the damage with the water hoses and the billy clubs on peaceful protesters during the civil
ODUOLOWU: When will America stand on -- when will they be what they say they are? When will it be that shining city upon a hill? If I was in the
military, I would be champion Colin Kaepernick. Because those rights that I fight for, those brave men and women. You see the deplorable conditions at
the V.A. Hospital.
You see the way we throw away soldiers like broken toy. America is not living up to what it is professing. What he is asking, I`m going to sit
down until it looks that way to me. If he wants to do it until from now to the end of the season, that`s good to me.
PINSKY: John, go ahead.
CARDILLO: Why doesn`t, if Colin Kaepernick wants to really save lives, why doesn`t he address black on black crime? In Chicago -- hold on -- here we
go -- you can quote false narratives all you want. But the true data, the FBI data does not bear out killer cops.
PINSKY: Hold on. John, hold on. I know where you`re going with that.
SALAAM: John, you`re talking about something else. You`re talking about a whole other topic.
CARDILLO: I`ll giving real data.
PINSKY: Mohammad Ali`s wife. She told sports, quote, if he is willing to get off his high horse and humble himself, we can do a lot of good
together, right? Now, she said the same thing I said.
She went on to say, I would like to know exactly what he`s trying to improve and how he plans to make it happen. That is my one only question.
And I championed him to be a part of that. I`m still unclear what he intend.
GOETZ: But to put all of that on one person. This is a movement right now. That people are trying to figure out. And it`s coming together. But to say
to him, you have to define clearly what the black lives movement is going to be all about and give us goals.
PINSKY: Has he said it is the black lives movement that he is supporting?
ODUOLOWU: He said that is one of the.
SALAAM: He supports Black Lives Matter.
PINSKY: All right. That`s something. I haven`t heard that clearly.
GOETZ: You don`t to have make him, he is making this protest in the way that he feels comfortable doing it. And I don`t think that we have to have
requirements on him. Undeliverables. He made a statement. I feel like I know what he is saying and what he`s protesting against. It is resonating.
PINSKY: All right.
ODUOLOWU: For example, is Megan Rapinoe, does she need to now say and clarify why she is doing it? What her thoughts are? Are the other football
players that have joined in, do they have to now come up with solutions to questions that lawyers, doctors, TV pundits, politicians haven`t been able
to come to?
Remember we`re talking about athletes protesting against the treatment of minorities in America. We`ve been doing it for over 50 years. And there
still hasn`t been a change.
SALAAM: They just hate us more. Obviously, it is supposed to go away. According to John, right? He is making millions of dollars and he`s living
if affluent neighborhoods. Why should he have a voice? Why should he want to protest? Let`s talk about the black on black crime. African-American
people have been systematically oppressed in this country forever.
And now, we`ve been pitted against each other. Can you refute that, John? We`ve been pitted against each other for years and you`re wondering why
we`re killing each other at a high rate.
CARDILLO: Hold on, let me answer that. And stop voting for people like Hillary. Stop voting for the welfare class people like democrats and
Hillary Clinton who are pitting you against each other. You don`t like the facts.
PINSKY: All right. We got to leave it there. Thank you, panel. This is not a story that will go away. We`ll be right back after this.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I`ve saved this last segment to get into something that`s painful. Over the weekend, we suddenly and tragically lost a member of our CNN
family. You will see pictures of Judy Lewin-Scott. She has been our hair and make-up artist on the show from the very beginning.
She has prepared hundreds of people to appear on the air during her many years here at CNN. She was part of the fabric, really, of this family, this
work family that we have. That fabric has been torn. She passed away on Saturday. She left behind her husband and her son whom you see there, 6-
year-old, Asher, her husband, Eric.
Judy is someone that was loved not just by our entire team, by the studio, crew, the production staff, anchors, producers, guests, anyone that went
through here. You did not forget Judy. You were not affected by her smile. She is someone that will be deeply missed. She made everyone who crossed
her path feel special.
And we just wanted you to know this was a very special woman to us. She -- this is completely unexpected. This happened very suddenly, and we`ve all
been left -- we`ve been left devastated. And so our team here and the extended family at CNN and HLN is trying to sort of hold it together.
We did want to tribute her, send this little tribute out on her behalf to her son and her husband. And good night to all of you. Thank you for